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dhrub.b
Guest
hi chintana
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dhrub.b
Guest
chintana,are you online.where are you from.i am a hindi speaking brahmin from delhi.
N
N.Ramanathan
Guest
Dear Administration,
I just joined the form about 10 minutes back. It is really unfortunate that the chief minister has announced that even temple priests will be replaced by other castes. It is traditional for many centuries that temple priests are always bhramins as they have known to have mastered the art of performing the pooja. They also acquire knowledge of veda and other rituals to perform pooja.
AS we do not have the enough strength to fight our cause on roads, it is important that we join some political parties to garner enough polictical strength to thrawt the new intiatives of the government.
I just joined the form about 10 minutes back. It is really unfortunate that the chief minister has announced that even temple priests will be replaced by other castes. It is traditional for many centuries that temple priests are always bhramins as they have known to have mastered the art of performing the pooja. They also acquire knowledge of veda and other rituals to perform pooja.
AS we do not have the enough strength to fight our cause on roads, it is important that we join some political parties to garner enough polictical strength to thrawt the new intiatives of the government.
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dhrub.b
Guest
hi rama,donot worry about temple priest issue.in 89-90 when laloo-mulayam came to power in u.p-bihar.first of all they decided the same thing.but even after 16 years barring 10-15 exception all priest are brahmins this is the figure among 290 million people.no body today want to become priest because it restricts people towards many carnal pleasure and most important of all becoming priest is nothing like getting into iims!
LavasZONe seems to be very emotional about the priests issue! Please cool down and think. What Suraj says is not totally illogical.
There were great reformers in Hinduism and that too from our own Brahmin community- Unlike Islam, Hinduism reformed itself over a period of time and slowly became progressive - Sati was abolished - Child marriages banned- Widow remarriages gaining acceptance- All of course with Govt support-Let us set our house right- Things will definitely look up-
Let us accept the reality that , except gurukkals and bhattacharya, nobody else- brahmin or non-brahmins were allowed in the sanctum sanctorum of our temples- Even if they are Ganapatikals! Right or wrong- it is only a tradition-
Nothing wrong in correcting them- Of course I agree with you that MK is not driven by this noble cause- Even then let us see reason.
Regarding your comments on job, salary, leave etc- The archaka is a job now in HRCE temples- They get monthly salary- It is a sort of quasi-govt job- In the late sixties, I was in small villages of Tanjore distt- I have many times heard the village gurukkals saying " If these temples are taken by the govt, it is good- At least we will get regular salaries"- In fact they were running from pillar to post to include their temple in the HRCE list! Otherwise, nobody was bothered about these village temples! The archakas were living in abject poverty!
Let us not try to make any statements implying that all non-brahmins are non-pious, meat eaters, drunkerds etc. - This type of statements have caste-overtones and betrays our arrogance- There are good and bad characters in all communities! Why do you assume a non-brahmin priest to behave badly? Can you say all the brahmin priests are epitomes of virtue? Have you ever visited Srirangam temple or Palani for that matter? How our own community archakas fleece our own community people- you can see with your own eyes!
In stead of defending the indefensible, let us concentrate on how to bring our archaka community brothers and sisters to the main stream and to alternative professions!
That is what we should do!
Shankar
Bhilai
There were great reformers in Hinduism and that too from our own Brahmin community- Unlike Islam, Hinduism reformed itself over a period of time and slowly became progressive - Sati was abolished - Child marriages banned- Widow remarriages gaining acceptance- All of course with Govt support-Let us set our house right- Things will definitely look up-
Let us accept the reality that , except gurukkals and bhattacharya, nobody else- brahmin or non-brahmins were allowed in the sanctum sanctorum of our temples- Even if they are Ganapatikals! Right or wrong- it is only a tradition-
Nothing wrong in correcting them- Of course I agree with you that MK is not driven by this noble cause- Even then let us see reason.
Regarding your comments on job, salary, leave etc- The archaka is a job now in HRCE temples- They get monthly salary- It is a sort of quasi-govt job- In the late sixties, I was in small villages of Tanjore distt- I have many times heard the village gurukkals saying " If these temples are taken by the govt, it is good- At least we will get regular salaries"- In fact they were running from pillar to post to include their temple in the HRCE list! Otherwise, nobody was bothered about these village temples! The archakas were living in abject poverty!
Let us not try to make any statements implying that all non-brahmins are non-pious, meat eaters, drunkerds etc. - This type of statements have caste-overtones and betrays our arrogance- There are good and bad characters in all communities! Why do you assume a non-brahmin priest to behave badly? Can you say all the brahmin priests are epitomes of virtue? Have you ever visited Srirangam temple or Palani for that matter? How our own community archakas fleece our own community people- you can see with your own eyes!
In stead of defending the indefensible, let us concentrate on how to bring our archaka community brothers and sisters to the main stream and to alternative professions!
That is what we should do!
Shankar
Bhilai
Dear Shanker,
Thanks for your prespective, I the act of temple to be included in HRCE would be a great feat in those days, believe me as per my previous post in this thread, the salary or consolitated pay for the temple priest in villages is ~ INR 500 per month (less that USD12). Then the priest has to resent to bedgging.
Also the temples are not chruches or mosques which came to convert people then they may need anyone to conduct the cermony. Also they are congregations. Which in hinduism to have some recent samiyars convene people for yagam, pooja and so on. Most of them are non traditional. With the case of temple It is the family tradition, it is their assest - most revered and accepted assest.
Sorry for attacking the CM, can MK and his family could partake the leadership and the fast made assets of SUN TV by an order of govt to nationalise all satellite channel (like indra gandhi order)? Certainly not.
Temples in the our country are reverred assest because it was above the normal and a role model for other people. Making anyone to position of temple priest would undermine the tradition and hurting the minds of fellow hindus themselves.
I am pointing out that very acquistion of temples by the govt is very unconsitutional by the fact. People are struggling to come out of the clutches of the secular govt. Any further internvention is itself :"kim punar nyayam".
Thus people like srkpriv is making statement just because he can write in english. I beg all of you to analyse the issue first and don't try to reconcile our tradition with that of other traditions in other words don't negate a veda or agama just to show you a rational man/woman. If you cannot understand a concept then negation is like chi chi ithna drachitai pulikum attitude.
You can accept theories of modern physics and neuclear science because you think they are from authenticated source. You accept any medical improvement elightened by the scitentist even though they cannot explain very actual reaction of a paracetamol (your metacin) how cures you paid or fever. Yet you accept this medicine.
You may argue that these medicines dont harm you body, but this only upto our limited knowledge as observed with limited observation power of the present day science.
I amiving this long explanation just because people should not counter argue with the shortcomings of the example rather to take it as it is. ok.
Thanks for your prespective, I the act of temple to be included in HRCE would be a great feat in those days, believe me as per my previous post in this thread, the salary or consolitated pay for the temple priest in villages is ~ INR 500 per month (less that USD12). Then the priest has to resent to bedgging.
Also the temples are not chruches or mosques which came to convert people then they may need anyone to conduct the cermony. Also they are congregations. Which in hinduism to have some recent samiyars convene people for yagam, pooja and so on. Most of them are non traditional. With the case of temple It is the family tradition, it is their assest - most revered and accepted assest.
Sorry for attacking the CM, can MK and his family could partake the leadership and the fast made assets of SUN TV by an order of govt to nationalise all satellite channel (like indra gandhi order)? Certainly not.
Temples in the our country are reverred assest because it was above the normal and a role model for other people. Making anyone to position of temple priest would undermine the tradition and hurting the minds of fellow hindus themselves.
I am pointing out that very acquistion of temples by the govt is very unconsitutional by the fact. People are struggling to come out of the clutches of the secular govt. Any further internvention is itself :"kim punar nyayam".
Thus people like srkpriv is making statement just because he can write in english. I beg all of you to analyse the issue first and don't try to reconcile our tradition with that of other traditions in other words don't negate a veda or agama just to show you a rational man/woman. If you cannot understand a concept then negation is like chi chi ithna drachitai pulikum attitude.
You can accept theories of modern physics and neuclear science because you think they are from authenticated source. You accept any medical improvement elightened by the scitentist even though they cannot explain very actual reaction of a paracetamol (your metacin) how cures you paid or fever. Yet you accept this medicine.
You may argue that these medicines dont harm you body, but this only upto our limited knowledge as observed with limited observation power of the present day science.
I amiving this long explanation just because people should not counter argue with the shortcomings of the example rather to take it as it is. ok.
Dear Mr. Pattuk,
It is not we who should analyse before saying anything. I guess it is you who shoud look at in non-emotional way. Basically you just have to apply abstract thinking. The court clearly said if a person is qualified to do this job he can do it. As long as they follow all the sambradayams without any issue I am personally okay with non-brahmisn becoming preist. I dont think God is going to complain as well.
Regarding your medicine and science analogy we are not taking it without any proof lots of science based things have been proven in many ways. Whereas no one is asking proof for faith. Religion and Godliness is based on faith. Where as religion and God I can take it on faith. non-allowance of non-brahmins doesn't come under faith premise. This is a social change and a necessary in that one. Hope it had happened long time back with the blessings of brahmins. But unfortunately brahmins are caste as villians while Mr. Karunanidhi is supposedly getting the good name as a social reformer for wrong reasons.
It is not we who should analyse before saying anything. I guess it is you who shoud look at in non-emotional way. Basically you just have to apply abstract thinking. The court clearly said if a person is qualified to do this job he can do it. As long as they follow all the sambradayams without any issue I am personally okay with non-brahmisn becoming preist. I dont think God is going to complain as well.
Regarding your medicine and science analogy we are not taking it without any proof lots of science based things have been proven in many ways. Whereas no one is asking proof for faith. Religion and Godliness is based on faith. Where as religion and God I can take it on faith. non-allowance of non-brahmins doesn't come under faith premise. This is a social change and a necessary in that one. Hope it had happened long time back with the blessings of brahmins. But unfortunately brahmins are caste as villians while Mr. Karunanidhi is supposedly getting the good name as a social reformer for wrong reasons.
pattuk said:
Temple Priests
This is in reply to Thivya-
You have betrayed your own prejudices and hatred in your mail-
You want to project as if all brahmins - en bloc- are caste fanatics and all non-brahmins ( you want to call only them as "Tamils") are not!
This is a vey skewed attitude and is not the reality!
If you want to have a detailed discussion on this I am ready!
Shankar
This is in reply to Thivya-
You have betrayed your own prejudices and hatred in your mail-
You want to project as if all brahmins - en bloc- are caste fanatics and all non-brahmins ( you want to call only them as "Tamils") are not!
This is a vey skewed attitude and is not the reality!
If you want to have a detailed discussion on this I am ready!
Shankar
my father is to be a great follower of Rajaji. He used to always say the words of rajaji 'throw the fly in the honey, it drinks and dies there'. What happened to the rude anti-brahmin sentiments in tamil nadu. Papan is used to be the word which use to be said to abuse.
Offcourse, we must file a suit to take the courts support for the continuity of the custom. You know in tirupathi, the whole administration is taken over by the telugu but one thing which they could not take over is the respect of jeeyar, which was fought and won on the supreme court. The agama vidhis require the pandits to be well versed in sanskirt and also in nalayerdivya prabandam [ tamil veda ]. Since non could achieve that the last rights of the iyengar stays in the form of jeeyar dharshan in tirupathi otherwsie the whole temple is already taken over by the government in the name of thirumal thirupathi devastham.
Strength of the brahmins were not on the temples but on the mantras and the assimilation of the mantras sound and the mind. Some where brahmin including myself has lost the great treasure. Remember on thing, temples are built around personalities, but without the personalities, the temples are nothing but stones. Take for example mata amirthanandmaye. By his sheet charima she has built a spirtiual and also economic empire. Hope our brahmin personalities raise up to the level.
Sometime, the muts must have their own set limits. for example the periyava swami sankaracharya never use to get muddle with politicians or power. The reason being power corrupts and absolute power corrupts obsosolute. During emergency, indira gandhi came to visit swamigal and no body could stop but she could not make anything as swamigal was on mouna nishta and she could not sit for that time she prostrate and left. Some where there is something which has missed. Even a non brahmin would not dare out of his own conscience to talk wrong about swamigal. Somewhere once again it is lost subsequently.
We must remember the chandra and surya vamsham which was developed by krishna and rama went for destruction due to indiscipline and lord did not stop it.
Leave the temples to the nuts and move further. Automatically that will loose its importance.
One of my non brahmin friend is to make sarci statement to state that the branhmin temples are ready to take donation from any caste but the respect is only reserved to the brahmins by birth. He has a point.
i would like people to ponder on the above
Offcourse, we must file a suit to take the courts support for the continuity of the custom. You know in tirupathi, the whole administration is taken over by the telugu but one thing which they could not take over is the respect of jeeyar, which was fought and won on the supreme court. The agama vidhis require the pandits to be well versed in sanskirt and also in nalayerdivya prabandam [ tamil veda ]. Since non could achieve that the last rights of the iyengar stays in the form of jeeyar dharshan in tirupathi otherwsie the whole temple is already taken over by the government in the name of thirumal thirupathi devastham.
Strength of the brahmins were not on the temples but on the mantras and the assimilation of the mantras sound and the mind. Some where brahmin including myself has lost the great treasure. Remember on thing, temples are built around personalities, but without the personalities, the temples are nothing but stones. Take for example mata amirthanandmaye. By his sheet charima she has built a spirtiual and also economic empire. Hope our brahmin personalities raise up to the level.
Sometime, the muts must have their own set limits. for example the periyava swami sankaracharya never use to get muddle with politicians or power. The reason being power corrupts and absolute power corrupts obsosolute. During emergency, indira gandhi came to visit swamigal and no body could stop but she could not make anything as swamigal was on mouna nishta and she could not sit for that time she prostrate and left. Some where there is something which has missed. Even a non brahmin would not dare out of his own conscience to talk wrong about swamigal. Somewhere once again it is lost subsequently.
We must remember the chandra and surya vamsham which was developed by krishna and rama went for destruction due to indiscipline and lord did not stop it.
Leave the temples to the nuts and move further. Automatically that will loose its importance.
One of my non brahmin friend is to make sarci statement to state that the branhmin temples are ready to take donation from any caste but the respect is only reserved to the brahmins by birth. He has a point.
i would like people to ponder on the above
Are the vedas out of date? We claim that the Vedas are beginningless and eternal. Are they or are they not? Are castes really occupation based or vice versa? There are a plethora of castes today in India and how do we reconcile with the four varnas given in the Vedas?
Caste is a touchy-topic. According to the opponents the caste system is inhuman because it advocates untouchability and inequality. Some people consider Brahmins as villains in this respect. They therefore clamor for the abolition of caste system depicting it as an invention of the Brahmins.
We may continue to gloss over this question but who would answer when your children ask the question? Think about it. There is so much social pressure on them for being different. They cannot take it unless they understand it. Are you going to help them or abandon them like the lady who visited me the other day. She said, "I have told my daughter, I don't care who you marry as long as you don't bring another girl." That is the lowest common denominator to which a person could sink.
Let us see some facts:
·People forget the fact that the Brahmins are only 2% or so of the population. Yet they have been victims of oppression in the hands of every foreigner who invaded the country right from the warlord Kanishka of the Chinese Kushana tribes who invaded the country before Jesus Christ was born, to the Muslim and Christian invaders. But alas at another period when Harshavardhana converted into Buddhism, he slaughtered 10,000 Brahmins.
In their quest for destroying the so called infidels as they called the Hindus, the Muslim invaders
· slaughtered the Brahmins and the Kshathriyas in many thousands,
· raped the women and pillaged the country that made the holocaust a dwarf by comparison.
The Christians who followed imposed their own tyranny.
·The Portuguese killed and maimed the thousands of Brahmins in Goa. According to them destroying the Brahmins would be the destroying of Hinduism.
Today's secularists did not lag behind either.
·They have wiped out these facts from the history books in the name of preventing alienation within the society.
·They have imposed economic and political embargo on the Brahmins in the name of building a secular society. We all know how difficult it is for the Brahmins to get admission in the colleges or getting jobs in the government especially in South India.
The Brahmins who form about 2% of the Hindus have been silently bearing the brunt of the attacks of those who want to destroy this ancient religion from both within and without.
During the days of the British Rule, the Brahmins were in the forefront in the struggle for freedom.
·They were of militant type and seldom pacifists The Chitpavan Brahmins were banned under the Sedition Act and were persecuted. The proportion of Brahmins who participated in the freedom struggle far exceeded their 2% of the total population. In Tamilnadu alone Brahmins were great leaders such as va. U. si Iyer, Bharathi, Kanchi vardadhachariar, Sathyamoorthy Rajaji and others. Bharathi's nationalist songs are eternal poetry that raises horripilation even now.
The British colonialists responded to the success of the freedom struggle as a whole
·by inciting the Muslims against Hindus to demand division of the country., and
·by inciting the non-Brahmins against Brahmins that resulted in many anti-Brahmin parties such as Justice Party in the South and many caste-based parties in the North.
But once Independence was gained the beneficiaries were the Muslims who gained a big country to keep India always embroiled in confrontation and war both within and without. And the Brahmins were the definite losers.
·Those who sacrificed for the country became victims of oppression. For example Kamaraj who got his political education from a the Brahmin Sathyamoorty, was the first to band with avowed anti-Brahmin Periyar and dethroned Rajaji from the chief ministership. His partisanship in land reform at 60-40 was aimed at the Brahmins of Thanjavur. The Brahmins set off an exodus to the cities deprived of their land by the peasants who occupied them. The Brahmins who are being called the villains are actually victims and they have borne the brunt silently in a spirit of karmic dignity.
Then the only people, therefore, to whom anyone should direct the question if caste system is outmoded and should be abandoned would be those who are other than the Brahmins. When you do so, they will laugh at you. Because they are busily inventing and organizing newer and newer castes and all of them want to be declared as scheduled castes and backward castes because the secularists Nehru and his successors have brought about the so called reservations in the matter of education and jobs. No government can ever abolish these reservation lists unless they have a death wish.
·No body wants to be a Brahmin because there is no money in it and also because it imposes true moral conduct in being a Brahmin. But they would like to marry Brahmin women. That should hasten the doom of Brahmins. That still leaves us to answer the question if castes are valid today.
·You have to make your opinion after knowing its basis. But I still have to caution that it is quite dangerous to make a selective acceptance of our Vedas that is almost total rejection of the karma kaanda portion of our Vedas. This will only lead to self-destruction.
Such an attempt to reject our Vedas is nothing new. It has happened before.
·Jains and Buddhists have relegated the sacrificial religion to the background until Adi Sankara came to the scene and rescued the Vedic Religion. And mind you, Sankara is no karma vaadhin but the foremost exponent of the path of nivrthi.
·And during the last thousand years almost, the Muslims and christians who invaded India systematically and tyrannically attempted to distroy the Vedic religion. Apart from persecuting the Brahmins, they have succeeded in destroying the Kshathriyas, every one of whom lived to protect the Brahmins and the Hindu temples and the Vedic way of life.
·Today without these Kshathriyas we see large scale attempt from the so called secularists to destroy this ancient religion from within. There are number of things that are happening in India in the name of caste such as pitched battles between different castes in many parts of India. Bihar is a burning ground now. There were other states before. Being pacifists, none of us will ever approve of all that is happening. One thing is very clear that Brahmins as a community are not involved in these killings in the countryside.
Caste is a touchy-topic. According to the opponents the caste system is inhuman because it advocates untouchability and inequality. Some people consider Brahmins as villains in this respect. They therefore clamor for the abolition of caste system depicting it as an invention of the Brahmins.
We may continue to gloss over this question but who would answer when your children ask the question? Think about it. There is so much social pressure on them for being different. They cannot take it unless they understand it. Are you going to help them or abandon them like the lady who visited me the other day. She said, "I have told my daughter, I don't care who you marry as long as you don't bring another girl." That is the lowest common denominator to which a person could sink.
Let us see some facts:
·People forget the fact that the Brahmins are only 2% or so of the population. Yet they have been victims of oppression in the hands of every foreigner who invaded the country right from the warlord Kanishka of the Chinese Kushana tribes who invaded the country before Jesus Christ was born, to the Muslim and Christian invaders. But alas at another period when Harshavardhana converted into Buddhism, he slaughtered 10,000 Brahmins.
In their quest for destroying the so called infidels as they called the Hindus, the Muslim invaders
· slaughtered the Brahmins and the Kshathriyas in many thousands,
· raped the women and pillaged the country that made the holocaust a dwarf by comparison.
The Christians who followed imposed their own tyranny.
·The Portuguese killed and maimed the thousands of Brahmins in Goa. According to them destroying the Brahmins would be the destroying of Hinduism.
Today's secularists did not lag behind either.
·They have wiped out these facts from the history books in the name of preventing alienation within the society.
·They have imposed economic and political embargo on the Brahmins in the name of building a secular society. We all know how difficult it is for the Brahmins to get admission in the colleges or getting jobs in the government especially in South India.
The Brahmins who form about 2% of the Hindus have been silently bearing the brunt of the attacks of those who want to destroy this ancient religion from both within and without.
During the days of the British Rule, the Brahmins were in the forefront in the struggle for freedom.
·They were of militant type and seldom pacifists The Chitpavan Brahmins were banned under the Sedition Act and were persecuted. The proportion of Brahmins who participated in the freedom struggle far exceeded their 2% of the total population. In Tamilnadu alone Brahmins were great leaders such as va. U. si Iyer, Bharathi, Kanchi vardadhachariar, Sathyamoorthy Rajaji and others. Bharathi's nationalist songs are eternal poetry that raises horripilation even now.
The British colonialists responded to the success of the freedom struggle as a whole
·by inciting the Muslims against Hindus to demand division of the country., and
·by inciting the non-Brahmins against Brahmins that resulted in many anti-Brahmin parties such as Justice Party in the South and many caste-based parties in the North.
But once Independence was gained the beneficiaries were the Muslims who gained a big country to keep India always embroiled in confrontation and war both within and without. And the Brahmins were the definite losers.
·Those who sacrificed for the country became victims of oppression. For example Kamaraj who got his political education from a the Brahmin Sathyamoorty, was the first to band with avowed anti-Brahmin Periyar and dethroned Rajaji from the chief ministership. His partisanship in land reform at 60-40 was aimed at the Brahmins of Thanjavur. The Brahmins set off an exodus to the cities deprived of their land by the peasants who occupied them. The Brahmins who are being called the villains are actually victims and they have borne the brunt silently in a spirit of karmic dignity.
Then the only people, therefore, to whom anyone should direct the question if caste system is outmoded and should be abandoned would be those who are other than the Brahmins. When you do so, they will laugh at you. Because they are busily inventing and organizing newer and newer castes and all of them want to be declared as scheduled castes and backward castes because the secularists Nehru and his successors have brought about the so called reservations in the matter of education and jobs. No government can ever abolish these reservation lists unless they have a death wish.
·No body wants to be a Brahmin because there is no money in it and also because it imposes true moral conduct in being a Brahmin. But they would like to marry Brahmin women. That should hasten the doom of Brahmins. That still leaves us to answer the question if castes are valid today.
·You have to make your opinion after knowing its basis. But I still have to caution that it is quite dangerous to make a selective acceptance of our Vedas that is almost total rejection of the karma kaanda portion of our Vedas. This will only lead to self-destruction.
Such an attempt to reject our Vedas is nothing new. It has happened before.
·Jains and Buddhists have relegated the sacrificial religion to the background until Adi Sankara came to the scene and rescued the Vedic Religion. And mind you, Sankara is no karma vaadhin but the foremost exponent of the path of nivrthi.
·And during the last thousand years almost, the Muslims and christians who invaded India systematically and tyrannically attempted to distroy the Vedic religion. Apart from persecuting the Brahmins, they have succeeded in destroying the Kshathriyas, every one of whom lived to protect the Brahmins and the Hindu temples and the Vedic way of life.
·Today without these Kshathriyas we see large scale attempt from the so called secularists to destroy this ancient religion from within. There are number of things that are happening in India in the name of caste such as pitched battles between different castes in many parts of India. Bihar is a burning ground now. There were other states before. Being pacifists, none of us will ever approve of all that is happening. One thing is very clear that Brahmins as a community are not involved in these killings in the countryside.
Hi guys!
I have been away at Salt Lake City, Utah, visiting my niece. A beautiful but sort of desolate city surrounded by mountains. The Mormon sect of Christian faith have a big presence. I went to their temples there and had a guided tour of all the nice places. According to them, God and his son appeared before this gentleman, Joseph Smith (they call him the prophet) and told him that all the existing religions (including Catholics, other Protestant denominations!!) were false and they gave him some book which is known as "the book of mormons". They asked me what my mother language was and when I told them Tamil, they immediately gave me a copy of the book and tried to persuade me to convert!! Nice people though!
Would somebody translate the posting published in Tamil by a gentleman named Thivya? I couldn't decipher the font used and though I am Tamil, my comprehension of Tamil isn't that good (I am ashamed to say this!!), having been brought up in the US for 40 years!
Does he say that we Brahmins are not Tamils? If so, I say that we are Tamils AND Brahmins; they are not mutually exclusive.
I have been away at Salt Lake City, Utah, visiting my niece. A beautiful but sort of desolate city surrounded by mountains. The Mormon sect of Christian faith have a big presence. I went to their temples there and had a guided tour of all the nice places. According to them, God and his son appeared before this gentleman, Joseph Smith (they call him the prophet) and told him that all the existing religions (including Catholics, other Protestant denominations!!) were false and they gave him some book which is known as "the book of mormons". They asked me what my mother language was and when I told them Tamil, they immediately gave me a copy of the book and tried to persuade me to convert!! Nice people though!
Would somebody translate the posting published in Tamil by a gentleman named Thivya? I couldn't decipher the font used and though I am Tamil, my comprehension of Tamil isn't that good (I am ashamed to say this!!), having been brought up in the US for 40 years!
Does he say that we Brahmins are not Tamils? If so, I say that we are Tamils AND Brahmins; they are not mutually exclusive.
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Hi anbu
Nice recap of persecution of brahmins. Your asked whether caste is valid now? But I guess was caste valid anytime?.
Caste is a invented segregation of people based on profession. The question of caste arised due to human greed and convenience. Humans try to distinguish themselves from the rest no matter what!. Black vs. white, christian vs islam vs hindu .. , upper caste vs lower caste, rich vs. poor, strong vs. weak.
Everyone of these comes from the basic underlying animal behaviour. Discrimation is the nature of Human Beings. Discrimination stems from the concept of 'Survival of the fittest' the variable is fittest here. The 'fittest' actually changes according to the situation.
In a Caste Society 'High-Caste' is the fittest, in men vs. women, men is the fittest (in physical form). The human minds perceives internally that way no matter what and always tries to achieve that, it is in our intrinsic animal nature to do so.
Some 50000 years ago, cannibalism to survive yourself was fittest, but 10000 years ago, you dont cannibalize within your groups (packs), the fittest try to cannibalize those outside the group by discriminating them accordingly and they do as well vice versa. Some 5000 years ago, cannibalism itself was a bad thing because we found a better way to live as a society or as a civilization anything outside that is bad, you found different ways to be the 'fittest'.
Humans always find ways to distinguish themselves from others, always find the fittest ground no matter what. Race, color, wars, ethnic cleansing, competition, rape, murder, desire, greed, and so on. Depending on who is where. You always try to explain yourself as a better person than the other, always try to discriminate for some reason for eg., sex (the topic in question), color, country, caste, academics, height, health, wealth and so on as well. Something that gives you the EDGE!. So the question of who is the fittest is the essence of all that is the most basic of human nature.
Nice recap of persecution of brahmins. Your asked whether caste is valid now? But I guess was caste valid anytime?.
Caste is a invented segregation of people based on profession. The question of caste arised due to human greed and convenience. Humans try to distinguish themselves from the rest no matter what!. Black vs. white, christian vs islam vs hindu .. , upper caste vs lower caste, rich vs. poor, strong vs. weak.
Everyone of these comes from the basic underlying animal behaviour. Discrimation is the nature of Human Beings. Discrimination stems from the concept of 'Survival of the fittest' the variable is fittest here. The 'fittest' actually changes according to the situation.
In a Caste Society 'High-Caste' is the fittest, in men vs. women, men is the fittest (in physical form). The human minds perceives internally that way no matter what and always tries to achieve that, it is in our intrinsic animal nature to do so.
Some 50000 years ago, cannibalism to survive yourself was fittest, but 10000 years ago, you dont cannibalize within your groups (packs), the fittest try to cannibalize those outside the group by discriminating them accordingly and they do as well vice versa. Some 5000 years ago, cannibalism itself was a bad thing because we found a better way to live as a society or as a civilization anything outside that is bad, you found different ways to be the 'fittest'.
Humans always find ways to distinguish themselves from others, always find the fittest ground no matter what. Race, color, wars, ethnic cleansing, competition, rape, murder, desire, greed, and so on. Depending on who is where. You always try to explain yourself as a better person than the other, always try to discriminate for some reason for eg., sex (the topic in question), color, country, caste, academics, height, health, wealth and so on as well. Something that gives you the EDGE!. So the question of who is the fittest is the essence of all that is the most basic of human nature.
Anbu said:
Let me add my two-cents' worth on this caste discussion. As you know, we Hindus are being ridiculed and laughed at our caste-based religion. However, I think 'caste' is in all religions, except we call it as such and they don't. Take the case of Muslims. What do you think is going on in Iraq? The Sunnies and the Shiates hate each other so much that they are killing each other. I used to know an Iraqi friend (who happened to be a Sunny). Once when I asked him if Sunnies and Shias married among each other, he immediately jumped and vehemently and categorically said a big 'NO'; NEVER!! And then, both the Sunnies and Shias hate the 'Ahmedias' and I understand they are not even allowed inside Mecca.
Let us talk about Christians. The Catholics are scorned by all protestants; among protestents, there are so many divisions and in-fighting and finger-pointing saying 'holier than thou'!!
Anyway, all i am trying to point out is that casteism is everywhere; Hindus are not alone.
Let us talk about Christians. The Catholics are scorned by all protestants; among protestents, there are so many divisions and in-fighting and finger-pointing saying 'holier than thou'!!
Anyway, all i am trying to point out is that casteism is everywhere; Hindus are not alone.
Very true mr. silverfox. If you look religion at the top level and caste as the next level under the religion. This is exactly where shia/sunni/catholic/protestant all belong. In a way everything is a caste only, may be not exactly conforming to the definition of caste but nevertheless some division under a religion.
Last I checked there are 1500 christian denominations within protestant in North America alone. They may not discriminate or fight among each other in a bad way or something according to current circumstances and situations. But they do poach on each other once a while.
The only reason they are portrayed better or not messed with is because they have a PR which hinduism and hindus dont.
Last I checked there are 1500 christian denominations within protestant in North America alone. They may not discriminate or fight among each other in a bad way or something according to current circumstances and situations. But they do poach on each other once a while.
The only reason they are portrayed better or not messed with is because they have a PR which hinduism and hindus dont.
silverfox said:
G
grajendran
Guest
Silverfox,
Question for you. Did Mormons let you inside the temple ? I was told that they normally keep that off-limits to all non-mormons. I'd been to Salt lake city couple of times, haven't been to the mormon temple that's why asked the question.
Let me translate Thivya's post for you. "Tamils do not resent brahmins, but it is the other way around. Despite living in this tamil land for cenutries, they stab tamils in the back. Brahmins who originally were brought to be employed in temples, later took ownership of the temples and made tamil off-limits in temples. While continuing to speak tamil, they despise the tamil language. Why do brahmins generally not consider themselves Tamils ? Discussions among yourselves will not bring any result whatsover, Please talk to Tamils. Let go of the castiest thinking, try become tamils."
That's my attempt guys. Others let me know if i'd been okay.
Regards
Question for you. Did Mormons let you inside the temple ? I was told that they normally keep that off-limits to all non-mormons. I'd been to Salt lake city couple of times, haven't been to the mormon temple that's why asked the question.
Let me translate Thivya's post for you. "Tamils do not resent brahmins, but it is the other way around. Despite living in this tamil land for cenutries, they stab tamils in the back. Brahmins who originally were brought to be employed in temples, later took ownership of the temples and made tamil off-limits in temples. While continuing to speak tamil, they despise the tamil language. Why do brahmins generally not consider themselves Tamils ? Discussions among yourselves will not bring any result whatsover, Please talk to Tamils. Let go of the castiest thinking, try become tamils."
That's my attempt guys. Others let me know if i'd been okay.
Regards
Dear Rajendran:
Nice to hear from you. No, they wouldn't allow anybody (not even christians of other sects) into the main temple; that is a restricted area. Other than that, we were allowed all over the place. They were very nice; they gave us a guided tour and took pains in explaining about their side. I was impressed with their cavernous conference hall which seats over 27,000 people at a time.
I want to thank you for your efforts in translating Thivya's post.
I am sorry to see Thivya's post accusing the Brahmins of everything that they are not. Whom are the Brahmins stabbing in the back? Does he know what he is talking about when he says "Brahmins despise the Tamil language"? Brahmins have contributed significantly to the Tamil langauge! We recite poems of Alwars and Nayanmars written in chaste Tamil. How can he say that "Brahmins do not consider themselves Tamils"? Look at the name of this website.
I believe Thivya is the epitome of the Dravida Kazhagam, whose only job is to harass, insult and make statements against Brahmins that are vindictive, vitriolic, vicious and vituperative. (I am running out of adjectives starting with 'V'!!). I would like see constructive dialog coming from these people instead of shooting their mouths off. They are nothing but demagogues kindling the passions of people against Brahmins, just for their personal gains.
I say to these people that we are more Tamils than those charlatans who claim to be Tamils. Whether they like it or not, we are every bit Tamils and an integral part of Tamil Nadu.
I dont subscribe to the theory that Brahmins are Aryans and the rest in Tamil Nadu are Dravidians. If there were such an ethnic group called Aryans, they have definitely assimilated with the Dravidians about maybe 3000 years ago. What we have today throughout India is a mixture of these two groups. This is my opinion.
Nice to hear from you. No, they wouldn't allow anybody (not even christians of other sects) into the main temple; that is a restricted area. Other than that, we were allowed all over the place. They were very nice; they gave us a guided tour and took pains in explaining about their side. I was impressed with their cavernous conference hall which seats over 27,000 people at a time.
I want to thank you for your efforts in translating Thivya's post.
I am sorry to see Thivya's post accusing the Brahmins of everything that they are not. Whom are the Brahmins stabbing in the back? Does he know what he is talking about when he says "Brahmins despise the Tamil language"? Brahmins have contributed significantly to the Tamil langauge! We recite poems of Alwars and Nayanmars written in chaste Tamil. How can he say that "Brahmins do not consider themselves Tamils"? Look at the name of this website.
I believe Thivya is the epitome of the Dravida Kazhagam, whose only job is to harass, insult and make statements against Brahmins that are vindictive, vitriolic, vicious and vituperative. (I am running out of adjectives starting with 'V'!!). I would like see constructive dialog coming from these people instead of shooting their mouths off. They are nothing but demagogues kindling the passions of people against Brahmins, just for their personal gains.
I say to these people that we are more Tamils than those charlatans who claim to be Tamils. Whether they like it or not, we are every bit Tamils and an integral part of Tamil Nadu.
I dont subscribe to the theory that Brahmins are Aryans and the rest in Tamil Nadu are Dravidians. If there were such an ethnic group called Aryans, they have definitely assimilated with the Dravidians about maybe 3000 years ago. What we have today throughout India is a mixture of these two groups. This is my opinion.
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Dear Silverfox,
My view corresponds to what Mahaperiaval said in 'Deivathin Kural'. For details see: http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/t...3/1/hindu/The+Vedic+Religion+And+Varna+Dharma
Regards,
Anbu
My view corresponds to what Mahaperiaval said in 'Deivathin Kural'. For details see: http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/t...3/1/hindu/The+Vedic+Religion+And+Varna+Dharma
Regards,
Anbu
Dear Anbu:
Thank you for the link. I learnt a great deal from reading Mahaperiaval's thoughts. I am very surprised as to why his words were not published or broadcast thruout Tamil Nadu; that would have dented the anti-Brahmin propaganda.
However, if I may ask you a question: With all due respect to Mahaperiaval, I was at a function where we were all discussing various issues. THe subject of Acharya not seeing a widow, or if he had to see one, then he would fast... Let me first say that I came toknow of this only thru listening to others.
Is this true? Shouldn't we treat our women with respect, especially after they become widows (no fault of theirs).
Thank you.
Thank you for the link. I learnt a great deal from reading Mahaperiaval's thoughts. I am very surprised as to why his words were not published or broadcast thruout Tamil Nadu; that would have dented the anti-Brahmin propaganda.
However, if I may ask you a question: With all due respect to Mahaperiaval, I was at a function where we were all discussing various issues. THe subject of Acharya not seeing a widow, or if he had to see one, then he would fast... Let me first say that I came toknow of this only thru listening to others.
Is this true? Shouldn't we treat our women with respect, especially after they become widows (no fault of theirs).
Thank you.
Dear respected Anbu:
Thank you for clarifying the issue. However, I will not buy this 'acharam' and if the acharyas are following this, then they are 200% wrong in the eyes of God.
Before I go any further, let me say that I AM NOT a secularist (you can see I am a member of this orgn.,) or Universalist (I honestly don't know what this means) and am a staunch Brahmin. Shaving a woman's head once she becomes a widow is pure chauvanistic; how is it a man doesn't shave his head when his wife dies? He gets to participate in all the functions and have a good time, whereas the woman is shunned and sent to a dark corner. What kind of society is ours if we treat our women like this? Thank god, my grandfather didn't follow this so-called 'acharam' and had my mother shave her head when my father passed away. That was more than 65 years ago. Has this been mentioned in any of our Vedas? What has Dharma got to do with this discriminatory practice against our own women? Does the Acharya not see widowers? Of course, he does!
Yes, I firmly and categorically state that the Acharyas MUST stop this inhumane practice of insisting that widows should shave their heads. He is not God; he is merely a messenger of God and is mortal. For heaven's sake, what kind of message are we sending to our children? If we continue to have these barbaric practices, I am terribly afraid that the Hindu religion will be teetering towards sunset.
'Acharams' are supposed to be for the good of our people; not just some religious dogmas that one follows rigidly.
I am sorry, Mr. Anbu; I will not subscribe to this nonsense. I am actually very surprised that this is coming from a scholarly gentleman like you. I would like to hear from other members on this subject.
Next thing I will hear is that we should practice 'sati' because that was also an 'acharam'.
Thank you for clarifying the issue. However, I will not buy this 'acharam' and if the acharyas are following this, then they are 200% wrong in the eyes of God.
Before I go any further, let me say that I AM NOT a secularist (you can see I am a member of this orgn.,) or Universalist (I honestly don't know what this means) and am a staunch Brahmin. Shaving a woman's head once she becomes a widow is pure chauvanistic; how is it a man doesn't shave his head when his wife dies? He gets to participate in all the functions and have a good time, whereas the woman is shunned and sent to a dark corner. What kind of society is ours if we treat our women like this? Thank god, my grandfather didn't follow this so-called 'acharam' and had my mother shave her head when my father passed away. That was more than 65 years ago. Has this been mentioned in any of our Vedas? What has Dharma got to do with this discriminatory practice against our own women? Does the Acharya not see widowers? Of course, he does!
Yes, I firmly and categorically state that the Acharyas MUST stop this inhumane practice of insisting that widows should shave their heads. He is not God; he is merely a messenger of God and is mortal. For heaven's sake, what kind of message are we sending to our children? If we continue to have these barbaric practices, I am terribly afraid that the Hindu religion will be teetering towards sunset.
'Acharams' are supposed to be for the good of our people; not just some religious dogmas that one follows rigidly.
I am sorry, Mr. Anbu; I will not subscribe to this nonsense. I am actually very surprised that this is coming from a scholarly gentleman like you. I would like to hear from other members on this subject.
Next thing I will hear is that we should practice 'sati' because that was also an 'acharam'.
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Shaving a woman's head:
I would like to add the following to my posting:
I wonder how my fellow members would feel if their daughter (God forbid) who is young (say in her 20's or 30's) becomes a widow. Will they follow the so-called 'acharam' and get her head shaved?
I am posting this question in sincerity: Who came up with these 'Acharams' that we, Brahmins must follow? Who wrote them up? Definitely, no woman was involved!!
I would like to add the following to my posting:
I wonder how my fellow members would feel if their daughter (God forbid) who is young (say in her 20's or 30's) becomes a widow. Will they follow the so-called 'acharam' and get her head shaved?
I am posting this question in sincerity: Who came up with these 'Acharams' that we, Brahmins must follow? Who wrote them up? Definitely, no woman was involved!!
Dear Silverfox,
I hear your views and no one is forcing you to accept this. I don't think Acharyal could be forced to accept a new rule for his traditional acts. When you say " Next thing I will hear is that we should practice 'sati' because that was also an 'acharam'" you have gone a bit too far in your assumptions, I am sorry to say.
Acharyal or anybody else in the world is NOT forcing any young or old widow to shave her head. I thought I made that clear. Pl. be fair in making such statements.
I hear your views and no one is forcing you to accept this. I don't think Acharyal could be forced to accept a new rule for his traditional acts. When you say " Next thing I will hear is that we should practice 'sati' because that was also an 'acharam'" you have gone a bit too far in your assumptions, I am sorry to say.
Acharyal or anybody else in the world is NOT forcing any young or old widow to shave her head. I thought I made that clear. Pl. be fair in making such statements.
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