namaste everyone.
This debate is carried on well, although there are occasional opinionated, prejudicial and even irresponsible statements from the side of the non-believers in spirituality.
• The crux of the debate is that karma is a spiritual (which means metaphysical)--NOT RELIGIOUS--concept. When you as a non-beleiver say that you don't believe in spirituality/metaphysics, there is no need to trash religions, religious leaders or religious practices.
• Similarly, if you as a non-believer say that scriptures are false, you should understand that the believer has the right to say that science is false too, in the sense of being uncertain and illusional.
• When a spiritual concept such as pUrva-janma-karma or rebirth of the soul after death, or the reality of the soul itself as metaphysical consciousness, has no scientific backing, a non-believer can say only as much in the interest of a fair and mature debate.
• It is alright to say that science will definitely find the answers in its ultimate physical reality of the world, but not accuse the believers that they are gullible or victims of ignorance (not using these same words) or using these words:
In my considered opinion, the peddlers of poorva-janma karma, grace/good work, submission, are the most immoral people to inhabit this earth, for they bring misery to people when they are alive, with a promise of reward after they are dead. (Nara, post #24)
I hope these requirements are fair enough for us to proceed with some more meaningful discussions, although it is not a question of one side convicing the other, but only of examining the various possibilities.
*****
One thing both the believers and non-believers agree on is that karma as cause/action is sure to give its effects. The question is how the karmic seeds are preserved until they manifest later.
• Belief in afterlife beyond death of the physical body and the karmic actions being carried over for manifestation in subsequent births, IMO, is a satisfactory answer, which as a hypothesis is as valid as any of science.
• In countering this hypothesis, all that the non-believers need to do is to explain, if there is no afterlife and reincarnation, how are the karmic seeds preserved in the physical realm and how they manifest later.
• The microlepton hypothesis of preservation of karmic seeds I mentioned in post #117 seems to be a possible answer that can satisfy those who follow science. Although it belongs to this thread more than the other, I posted it there since we are discussing subtle bodies and worlds there.
Sangom said in post #32:
All our actions, both good to the society (others) and bad to them, shape a Karmic layer around our physical body. This layer survives the body on its death and attaches itself to another body as soon as fertilization occurs. Thus the new body inherits the balance-sheet of some past person's life and is destined to experience the good and bad results arising therefrom. This in brief is my concept of Karma.
To which Nara replied in post #34:
Sorry, this to me is no less fantastic than poorva-janma karma. To theorize personalized karma balance to be transmitted upon death, there must be some plausible way for this transmission to take place. This leads to complicating the problem. This is unacceptable to me.
and Nara further said in post #59:
The spiritual entity theory starts with a big assumption that there is a ghost in the machine, which throws open a slew of new questions. To answer these questions, the spiritual entity theory relies on more assumptions like poorva-janma karma, etc., which in turn opens up further question like how a record of this poorva-janma karma is kept, how it is transmitted, and so on.
It seems the microlepton hypothesis answers these problems, so I think we can discuss its pros and cons here.
*****
Sangom said in post #111:
According to me, therefore, while science can go only up to the brain and its neurons, science has very little knowledge of who or what activates the neurons and also in such a way that the brain reacts to the same stimulus in different ways in different people. Perhaps it may be said that this is done by genes, but, again, there is no clear answer to who or what activates the genes so as to make the brain work in different ways. All that can be said is "Genes, Brain - together they manage the entire show; but we don't yet know how."
I am sure that further research will take it to more and more into a sort of Mandelbrot set imagery, world-inside-world-inside-world, something which Particle physics has revealed so far.
shrI Sangom, do you think that the 'who or what' and the 'world-inside-world-inside-world' in the above quote must necessarily be physical which will be eventually be found by science or there is a possibility of metaphysical reality behind them?
HH says in post #112:
From the scientific pov, maybe it is said there is no purvajanma vasanas. But maybe something more has not been studied yet. Maybe as new discoveries are made, we will slowly understand this grand design? why genes work the way they do? who knows really...
Y, who knows maybe there is purvajanma karma but the concept got abused and misused by those who wanted to cheat innocent people...(post #75)
Would this mean, smt.HH, that this concept as explained in our scriptures is unrealiable and it is wrong to believe in it until science finds an answer (assuming it can)?
