We are born in brahmin caste but can we call as real brahmins?

[renuka]

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I am sAtvik.

Cheers.

Dear Suraju ji,

Suddenly this doubt came to my mind.

Do Sattva individuals actually keep on repeating they are Sattva?

You see becos a person who is purely Sattva and is in his final hurdle to reach the supreme state will usually be sans the Arishad Vargas of Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Moha,Mada and Matsarya.

But the problem is..self proclaiming as Sattva falls under Mada which is spiced with Ahamkara..so how can that person be Sattva???

 

[suraju06]

Dear Renuka,

Dear Suraju ji,
Suddenly this doubt came to my mind.
Do Sattva [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]individuals[/COLOR] actually keep on repeating they are Sattva?
You see becos a person who is purely Sattva and is in his final hurdle to reach the supreme state will usually be sans the Arishad [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]Vargas[/COLOR] of Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Moha,Mada and Matsarya.
But the [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]problem[/COLOR] is..self proclaiming one's self as Sattva falls under Mada which is spiced with Ahamkara..so how can that person be Sattva???

That is a very reasonable doubt. I am glad that you got it and expressed it here. Individuals who are most of the time in sattva guna have no need whatsoever to keep saying that to every Tom Dick or Harry to impress him/her or brow beat him/her. I am sure you will agree that I do not try to impress any one here, nor browbeat or seek material benefit. When I say I am sAtvik I make just a statement of fact as I understand it. My knowledge of dynamics and my view of teaching it are mere facts which I have stated. Neither am I proud of that knowledge itself or the restraint with which I use it or the fact that there are people who have no such restraint. I have respect for the individual that I am for what I am. How you take it depends on which state of mind you are in at the material time-sAtvik, tamasic or rajasic. You really do not know me to deduce anything from what I write here and so the picture you draw is purely your impressions and they have for their substrate just your mind.

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

You really do not know me to deduce anything from what I write here and so the picture you draw is purely your impressions and they have for their substrate just your mind.

Cheers.

Dear Suraju Ji,

Thanks for reply...but I can't help saying this.

This last line of yours sounds very Advaitic...like how we can never really know Brahman and the picture we humans draw is purely our impressions in the substratum of our mind!

Suraju Ji Ki Jai!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Dharma waning and getting established is a pattern. You cannot say that just because adharma revives after being demolished, there is no point in demolishing it. The idea is not to let adharma go out of control and get firmly established. At a certain point when adharma peaks, God's intervention happens and He brings the situation back to normal.

Please do not compare Lord Krishna to today's totally unprincipled politicians. Your arguments look very contrived when you do that.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Suraju Ji,
Thanks for reply...but I can't help saying this.
This last line of yours sounds very Advaitic...like how we can never really know Brahman and the picture we humans draw is purely our impressions in the substratum of our mind!
Suraju Ji Ki Jai!

I do not know as much about advaitam as you know. But I know this much that "oru nAmam oruruvam onrum illArkku Ayiram thirunAmam pAdi thellEnam kottuvathu(ஒரு நாமம் ஓருருவம் ஒன்றும் இல்லார்க்கு ஆயிரம் திருநாமம் பாடித்தெள்ளேணம் கொட்டுவது)" is all that we humans know. As far as I am concerned even being that way an enigma is a kalyAna gunam of God.

cheers.

 

[sarang]

A few points:
I do not steal; it does not mean that others are thieves.
I am healthy; does not mean that everybody else is unhealthy or sick.
I am satvik; does not mean that others are loaded with rajothamasic gunas.
In thenkalai iyengar sampradayam, even to think that I can do saranagati is treated as an expression of ego, that I can do it when nothing is possible without His grace..

Dear Suraju ji,

Suddenly this doubt came to my mind.

Do Sattva individuals actually keep on repeating they are Sattva?

You see becos a person who is purely Sattva and is in his final hurdle to reach the supreme state will usually be sans the Arishad Vargas of Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Moha,Mada and Matsarya.

But the problem is..self proclaiming as Sattva falls under Mada which is spiced with Ahamkara..so how can that person be Sattva???

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Dharma waning and getting established is a pattern. You cannot say that just because adharma revives after being demolished, there is no point in demolishing it. The idea is not to let adharma go out of control and get firmly established. At a certain point when adharma peaks, God's intervention happens and He brings the situation back to normal.

Please do not compare Lord Krishna to today's totally unprincipled politicians. Your arguments look very contrived when you do that.

Even granting your above statement for discussion's sake, what was the Dharma which krishna established in your view? And how do you explain even Preekshit's curse and the complete destruction of the yadavas except as the result of adharma? So, is it not clear that krishna did not establish any dharma, after all? And to add to all these, how do you explain the fact that the Kaliyuga started very soon after the Mahabharata war?

 

[sravna]

Even granting your above statement for discussion's sake, what was the Dharma which krishna established in your view? And how do you explain even Preekshit's curse and the complete destruction of the yadavas except as the result of adharma? So, is it not clear that krishna did not establish any dharma, after all? And to add to all these, how do you explain the fact that the Kaliyuga started very soon after the Mahabharata war?

Adharma can be said to peak when reason goes unheeded. When one becomes impervious to reason you absolutely cannot expect fairness from him. There is only one point of view and that is one's point of view. That was the state of Duryodhana who was reigning over an empire. So when you close your ears to reason, you learn nothing further. So the prevailing state of affairs had to be changed and that was what Krishna did.

The pattern in a yuga it seems is that dharma is the highest at the start for that yuga , then it wanes and near the end of the yuga adharma peaks and God appears on the physical world. When things are set right , the yuga comes to an end. The purpose of life in the physical world IMO, is not to live in peace for ever but to constantly learn something throughout one's existence. So constant change in state of affairs marks physical existence. Eternal peace is only in the spiritual reality.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Suraju Ji, Thanks for reply...but I can't help saying this.

This last line of yours sounds very Advaitic...like how we can never really know Brahman and the picture we humans draw is purely our impressions in the substratum of our mind! Suraju Ji Ki Jai!

Renuka Ji, I disagree with your statement.

Ofcourse, we cannot deduce "completely" from the existing sources of knowledge - like Perception (our senses) on the enviornment and Inference (deduced logic). After we have concluded something or doubts having arisen, we refer to the authority for Brahman Knowledge like Srutis/its angas or commentaries, which were revealed to the realized ones. How else do you think, you can even know a form of Vishnu or Saraswathi or Rudra?

What we have known may be limited to our understanding, but what was described by our "ancient" sages were almost perfect!! We have not seen a black-hole or our vast galaxy, but by its descriptions, we pretty much comprehend its distance, shape, nature, power etc. That was exactly, how our rishis have narrated or picturised the cosmos and their regents.

Though our Self/Atma is considered atomic, its JnAna is infinite/Vibhu(pervasive). So, We can reach farther to the end of our galaxy in our thoughts. That is exactly, why meditation on the form of Brahman, with the picturisation of His nature, within our mind, can go to extra lengths in seeing or knowing Him. This is individual effort!! Then, our Sages might have attained that Vision, and written the Srutis. Our Srutis/its accessories, are all the testimony of such Divine Vision/Revelation.

So, next time,if we refer to those works of Sages, dont tell us , that we are imagining things!!

 

[Govinda]

In thenkalai iyengar sampradayam, even to think that I can do saranagati is treated as an expression of ego, that I can do it when nothing is possible without His grace..

Krishna clearly gave instructions at the end (Charama) of the Gita, 'Completely Surrender unto ME, I will deliver you from all sins'. So, how is surrender an expression of Ego? It is our mandatory responsibility !

Then, even consuming food, doing necessary things, should also be considered Ego, as it serves our own self. So, whatever we are writing here, to defend our shastras, is also an expression of ego, becos we have assumed as an authority, promoter or defender of all such knowledge.

But, the duties of a Brahmins are doing and promoting yagas, learning and teaching/knowledge-sharing scriptures and be the giver and receiver of charity.
These are responsibilites, are not expressions of ego! We need to distinguish between ego and responsibility!

 

[biswa]

in the spirit of self-certification: I declare myself to be a mahatma.

Any objections?

 

[renuka]

So, next time,if we refer to those works of Sages, dont tell us , that we are imagining things!!

Aiyoo Govinda,

I used the word Impressions in the Substratum of our mind.

I did NOT say Imagining.

Imagining can convey lots of meaning and can also be pathological in case of delusions and hallucinations.

That is why my choice of word was IMPRESSIONS and NOT Imagining.

Imagining was YOUR choice of word!LOL

Impressions are imprints carved in our mind by our thoughts which can date back into our previous life too.

Thoughts have inputs from extrinsic and intrinsic sources and also Pratyaksham(direct) experience with Divinity.

So all I can say is you never understood my post.

 

[renuka]

in the spirit of self-certification: I declare myself to be a mahatma.

Any objections?

Who am I to object when the Atma in you is the same as Atma in me?


Can one really object to one own's self?


It is only the body and mind that sees the pairs of opposite and can object or over rule.

Mahatmas are not born but unveiled ...the Supreme lies within..waiting to shine and blessed are those who realize this early.

Mahatma may you become Paramatma.

 

[biswa]

Wait, so we can certify ourselves as sattvic, racially pure Aryans, of highest caste, possessing supreme intelligence, having only noble thoughts and values, being the sole proprietor of truth, head and shoulders above other humans, but not as a mahatma?

How unfair!

PS. I thought somebody can become one with the paramatma only after they die?

 

[Govinda]

Wait, so we can certify ourselves as sattvic, racially pure Aryans, of highest caste, possessing supreme intelligence, sole proprietor of truth, head and shoulders above other humans, but not as a mahatma?

How unfair!

If One is relatively good or smart or beautiful or charitable etc, Such self-calling is o.k. for one's betterment and motivation.
But, eulogizing them, like we did for our leaders, bosses, mothers-in-law, political leads for some self benefits
is not warranted and is not sAttvika.

We were racially pure Aryans (noble minded), we still carry such genes atleast relatively to other races. But, we exercise our mind too much, over our inherent-genes(svarupa), to mimic the stressful, competitive economy of the world So, we have stepped down a little. When the west becomes Green, all other under-developed nations will follow greener practices. In my class, When 20 students get centum in maths, I will be one of them! Accept the past and the present. So, we can change the future!

PS. I thought somebody can become one with the paramatma only after they die?

Sh...h... That refutes Advaita's idea of Jivanmukti.

 

[renuka]

Wait, so we can certify ourselves as sattvic, racially pure Aryans, of highest caste, possessing supreme intelligence, having only noble thoughts and values, being the sole proprietor of truth, head and shoulders above other humans, but not as a mahatma?

How unfair!

PS. I thought somebody can become one with the paramatma only after they die?

Dear Mahatma,

You fail to understand that self declaration has no value...as I said earlier Mahatmas are NOT born but they are unveiled.

Yes you are right...anyone can declare themselves as Sattva blah blah blah cos this certification bears no seal of God.

Everything in this world is based on a belief..I believe therefore I am.

If you believe that you are Sattva yes you are!
If you believe that you are Rajas..yes you are!
If you believe that you are Tamas...yes you are!

You can be anything for only God knows the truth.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

What is sattvic is definitely not an opinion but has been said to be the attributes of a person whom we consider nice. If you read the definition of sattvic you will see all the good qualities one can aspire to possess and there is nothing wrong in preferring it to other dispositions. I am sure you wouldn't say that supporting good qualities is being prejudiced. I do not support the view that being born in a brahmin family guarantees sattvic nature and not being born in a brahmin family denies sattvic nature.

The point I want to make is that being sattvic is being intrinsically good and why would we want to deny that and worse still discourage that? I would be really happy if anyone would want to turn in to a sattvic person. The more the sattvic persons in the world the better place the world would be.

Sri. Sravna, Greetings. Sorry for the delay.


The Wiki definition for ‘Satvic’ is indeed an opinion only. ‘The term ‘satvic’ may not be defined like that in black and white terms.

We just have gunas to suit different situations. That’s all. In my opinion, ‘satvic’ guna is not any superior to ‘tamasic’ or ‘rajas’ guna. One would need all the gunas.

‘Satvic’ is the most appropriate guna to have at any given situation. Such guna may change from situation to situation. I don’t think it can be defined like it was defined in post #3.

When that same guna gets corrupted with emotions, it becomes ‘rajas’. In my opinion both ‘satvic’ and ‘rajas’ gunas are basically same but ‘rajas’ got corrupted with emotions. If one can overlook the emotional content, both ‘satvic’ and ‘rajas’ would have ended up with almost similar results. But it is not that easy to overlook content though.

‘Tamasic’ is the guna that really ruins the show. ‘Tamasic’ is the way one doesn’t want to deal with that situation.

Allow me to express myself with an example, please.

Let us say I run a butcher shop.

Satvic way for me would be to take the beast or the bird away from other beasts and birds, have it firmly tied in some kind of a clamping device, use surgical sharp instruments. Let the beast or bird die in dignity. Clean the place well afterwards so that the next beast comes to a clean place.

If I did all of the above but if I showed emotions in my actions… even if I sympathised for the beast, even if I thought that the beast was unfortunate to have such fate, then that would be ‘rajas’.

If I made a complete mess of the whole thing putting the beasts under stress, put myself under stress and allowed the beast to suffer more than it had to, then that would ‘tamasic’.

So, most often than not what appears like rajas or tamasic action may very well be the satvic action for that given situation.

 

[sravna]

Shri Raghy, emotions are indeed the difference though satvik people also show emotion in the way of compassion. I think in the case of rajasic people, the emotions they display is a mark of their ego.

 

[sarang]

The indian government has given a reply that gandhi was not given the title by the indian government and there are no records in its possession (RTI reply). So mahatma is not official.

All TV anchors and reporters always refer to some personalities as 'self styled swami', meaning nobody gave them the title.

One has to be careful because NDTV may one start referring as 'self styled mahatma'.

Since all the titles, degrees and positions are purchasable, all are acceptable.

A former CBI director who gave a clean chit to tytler and closed the cbi investigation without naming any culprit is now the governor of a eastern state.

in the spirit of self-certification: I declare myself to be a mahatma.

Any objections?

 

[C RAVI]

Sattvik person - He/She did harm to me without my knowledge. Let it be so. I shall care myself in future and wish the evil person transforms into a better person. I shall leave things in the hands of almighty and just care to care myself and continue to care others. I don't need to feel ashamed by criticism of others for being at receiving end and spoil my personality, attitude and intentions.

Rajasic person - He/She did harm to me, probably thinking that I am dumb and cant give back the same. Let me show him/her who am I. I shall jolt him/her such a way in retaliation that he/she gets the shock, pain, loss and sufferings of his/her life. I am no less than him/her and I shall let him realize how terrible can I be.


Tamasic person - The person has ruined/devastated me!! I can't ever come out of this shock. I can't forget this tragedy that has nearly paralyzed me. Don't know how to retaliate him/her in the same order and IF I really could do that..I just wish that, I gain strength and smartness to come up with a master plan and give back to him/her the same or the more.



The above Sattvik person my be instigated repeatedly and misleaded to change his attitude and get into Rajasik tendencies. The Sattvik person my get carried away and change OR may continue to be the same as he/she is. The Sattvik person may continue to hold the pure Sattvik tendencies as per his/her basic personality OR to the extent the person has determined OR conditioned himself/herself to retain Sattvik gunas.

The above Rajasik person may at any point of time adopt Satvik tendencies, wishing to be calm and in peace. To have only good thoughts and deeds and be in synch with positive energies OR, the person may acquire Tamasic gunas and get into depression while holding Rajasic tendencies deep within.

A Tamasic person my transform into Rajasic or Sattvik personality.


Whatever the case may be, a person can not rule out the value of having Sattvik gunas, having understood things in due course of life, holding mixed gunas.


Let us not discard Hindu philosophies that defines human gunas and put them in order of its significance and usefulness. Wikipedia references to know what is Sattvik guna may be useful to some one who could not understand or appreciate Hindu Philosophies, IMHO.


One more important point - A ignorant butcher my look Rajasic or Tamasic while doing his profession (giving pains to animals by reluctantly dealing with them) BUT can be a very sattvik person in reality. Many people tend to differentiate animals and animal's life from that of Humans and Human's life!!!

 

[sarang]

Tamas by itself is not a bad guna per se - it means lazy, indolent, or doing non productive work

Rajo guna is necessaruy to work and live and to drive one to actions. Satva guna helps in doing good and right actions and tamo guna leads to undesired or undesirable actions.

What is good and what is right is to be decided with the help of sastras, gurus, place and time.

 

[Sastri]

It is not enough to be born in a brahmin family to qualify as a Brahmin. One needs to practice his / her life like a brahmin does. If not, then we cannot call oursekves Brahmins. For example, whatever may be the stress, pressure, lack of time, one should be able to fine time to do Trikala Sandhya Vandanam. I urge all Fathers to practice this and preach their children to do this.

Could anyone who practices the above, regardless of the caste in which he/she is born, be accepted as brahmin?

 

[sangom]

The term "guṇa" came to us through the sāṃkhya system of philosophy. According to sāṃkhya, all inanimate objects are always a combination of the three guṇas. Each guṇa by itelf is incapable of producing any results, but, on the contrary, only by uniting together. Again, according to sāṃkhya, it is only the "prakṛti" or the inanimate world which has the three attributes satva, rajas & tamas joining together and giving interplay. The puruṣa or the soul is different and does not have any of these three guṇas. So, what use is there in discussing this topic?

I give below verse No. 11 from the sāṃkhyakārikā of īśvarakṛṣṇa:


त्रिगुणमविवेकि विषयः सामान्यमचॆतनं प्रसवधर्मि ।
व्यक्तं तथा प्रधानं तद्विपरीतस्तथा च पुमान् ॥ ११ ॥

triguṇamaviveki viṣayaḥ sāmānyamacetanaṃ prasavadharmi |
vyaktaṃ tathā pradhānaṃ tadviparītastathā ca pumān || 11 ||

 

[Raghy]

Shri Raghy, emotions are indeed the difference though satvik people also show emotion in the way of compassion. I think in the case of rajasic people, the emotions they display is a mark of their ego.

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

Any emotion would lead to Rajas guna. Showing 'compassion' is rajas. When i show compassion towards someone, somehow I believe I am superior to that person. that's why I have compassion. It is rajas.

Satvic guna is just the required guna for that situation, devoid of emotions. Satvic action is the most appropriate action for the given situation devoid of any emotions.

Cheers!

 

[P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN]

Dear Raghy.

I saw your posting to SHARAVANA. I am to state even now that it is a blunder we commit to say that we are Brahmins without a quality as given in Geeta i.e SAATVIK GUNA. But still caste system is in vogue because our ancestors wanted their children and others born in the family to be in the same caste. It is going on even now. Britishers made a rule that a Village Munsif's job as hereditary. Indians changed it. Hence our latest caste system is not based on GUNAS as referred to in GITA but made out of our selfishness.

Regards and Namaskarams,

P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN