Wedding between Tamil Brahmin and Seer Karuneegar

[krish44]

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Dear Shri Vaagmi,

It is always good for someone in a dilemma to hear from both the sides. You have eloquently brought out your main point. I see two factors at loggerheads here: One is one's individual preference in selection and the other is the preference of others. The latter may be the family, the neighbor and even the society at large. I feel the ideal decision would consider maximizing the long term happiness of the person. This may imply making others also happy. How do you know what to compromise and how much to compromise?

One good way to be foresightful is to fast forward some 30 - 40 years to the future. Visualize objectively whatever could go wrong with either of the options, and what would make you regret more at that time with things going wrong with each of the options? The option which you imagine would give you less cause for regret is very likely the one you will not actually regret later.

The catch with this is you have to do this objectively and not be affected by current emotions and you have to think of all the major factors that can go wrong, based on your current knowledge and the projection of such knowledge.

So I think the girl and the boy are in the best position to decide though others can give broad guidelines based on their experiences and knowledge that would be helpful in approaching the problem.

A brilliant post Sravnaji
well thought out post

I personally believe personal preferences count more in selection . the neighbours and the society at large would accept also perhaps . it is only the parents and

immediate relations who might have reservations.

what would happen 30-40 yrs is anybodys guess?

why think and worry about it?

the future generations will be smart enough to take of themselves

 

[sravna]

A brilliant post Sravnaji
well thought out post

I personally believe personal preferences count more in selection . the neighbours and the society at large would accept also perhaps . it is only the parents and

immediate relations who might have reservations.

what would happen 30-40 yrs is anybodys guess?

why think and worry about it?

the future generations will be smart enough to take of themselves

Thanks Krish Ji. I am sure the future generations will be smart. Asking to visualize future is to make one try to be free of the influence of present emotions which may cloud their decisions. I am not sure if it is possible or will work. Just an idea.

 

[vgane]

sangomji
I may add - if the inter caste couple get away from the southern state and go to another metro far away they should have a pretty good life without any pinpricks from anyone

caste related discrimination is relevant only to the state they live in .

if an intercaste couple from tamilnadu are in delhi , no one would really care about the same at least in professional or friend circles .

indian metros have evolved to accept inter caste to a large extent

with the new govt. religion though is becoming an issue

I stay in Delhi region...All the guys have their caste names written in bold (all except Tamilians)!

In case of intercaste marriage wife writes Goel Sachdeva or a Basu Sharma or a Jain Sharma or a Chopra Gupta..Incidentally you may be aware about Srinivasan Jain a NDTV reporter who is born inter caste

Caste is not an issue only with the rich! It is of prime importance to the thriving middle class too!

However Tamil Inter caste couple moving to Delhi may not face a problem among the local circle! You can say that you are a (Husband's caste)! Why say that you are inter caste and create problems for your self!

Already language is a variable and by your accent everyone knows that you are from Madras or Kerala..Why create an additional variable??

 

[tks]

#206 by kurai ondrum illai

Dear KO Illai,

.
.

Removed from the context these aspects of what you prefer to call culture lose their meaning. Now let me show how.

1. Compassion should be towards every one including animals and all other life forms and not only towards your neighbour. If you have that compassion you wont export contaminated food grains not fit for consumption by even pigs to a third world country just because the country was in dire need of food imports. And to do that and call it a charity PL 480 is the height of deceit. And Americans did that. And they napalmed the Vietnamese to defoliate the forests. These are just two examples of the unspeakable atrocities that were committed by your newly found haven. So much for American compassion. To be eligible for their compassion you have to be from the IIT of India and a fit candidate for further studies in one of the Ivy League portals (because you have potentials) or at least a sheep easily convertible to Christianity

Sri Vaagmi

Though I may agree or disagree with your views I know you tend to present your position with good analysis.
The above statement in my view is an aberration.

Compassion can only be described at a human level between people.

Extrapolating what happens at a country level or at a major corporation level to ordinary people is not sound logic.



When I found out that during the Bangladesh war our military went and raped many villagers it was unacceptable to me as a student that people of my country and that too the respected Army people would do that.

Similarly during the riots in 1984?, I heard first hand about stories of Hindus burning small Sardarji children and it was unthinkable to associate such acts with Hindus.

Late last year while I was traveling through Eastern Europe I could not believe the country of Germany was capable producing a holocaust like event in its history.


I think the young lady is describing her relationship to ordinary Americans and she is one such person (and an American first).

A government or big multinationals will do anything at any cost to increase its power.

They will exploit its own people because power in most countries is centered in less than 1% of its population.

The rest of 99% do not tend to act like the 1% that is in power and greed business

 

[krish44]

You never miss an opportunity to attack the tambrams living in South India. :fish:

I guess those who can converse in Hindi look down upon other tambrams!! :lol:

P.S: Those who live in the North probably don't care for others and let them live in eace:!!

RRj
you have got me wrong


If inter caste north indian couple in north indian states other than metroplitan delhi get lynched if they defy caste. they meet a worser fate than southern counter part . they are sent to heavan.

other than metros like delhi , they are unsafe and fear their lives.

these types from north india are safer in chennai or bangalore

similarly south indian intercastes are safer in delhi as they are 2000 plus kilometres away.

if you read my post carefully you will see what I was trying to convey.

northerners do not look down on anyone specifically.

if you feel they do , you are also equally free to return the compliment in chennai or wherever you are.

northerners flex their muscles a litlle more and try sometimes to act superior

if you challenge them they might mostly withdraw unless they turn violent and come to blows

in which case you are also equally free to take them on and use pepper spray.lol

the other day a meerut girl manhandled two spoilt brats in a car and made them crawl in front of her

so madam Raji , nothing prevents a southie to hit back as hard as he/she gets

only south TBs are soft ,sophisticated and reason for hours without resorting to violence '

thats why TBs are preferred tenants in delhi and punjabis are landlords ordering them about.

 

[krish44]

Caste takes the back seat! Horoscope takes the back seat!

But, family status DOES take the front seat! 'Love at first sight' ellam chummA!! :lie:

Girls see the bank balance and property earned by the prospective groom and most important aspect is

no additional luggage in the family!! Then comes the deiveegak kAdhal! :hug:

Boys go in search of beauty or brain; Girls search for the biggest purse!! :lol:

RRji

pl do not be cynical about TB love

love comes before bank balance and additional inlaws commitment

let us be charitable to young lovers

they are mostly idealistic look for a loving mate in their circle ignoring caste boundaries .

they do not think of either their respective parents or money.

you are giving them credit for too much calculation.

let us be charitable and give them benefit of doubt

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Krish Sir,

Thayir sAdham people are cooler than wheat rOti people!

I have seen most of the mAmis living in Mumbai / Delhi brag much more than Sing. Chennai mAmis

not forgetting to use 'achchA' and 'mathlab' often in their conversation!! :blah:

I would be tempted to say 'ayyOOO...ayyO' in Vadivelu's style!

 

[Raji Ram]

... pl do not be cynical about TB love........

I am not cynical, Sir!

Do you know why many divorces happen even in love marriages?

Today's motto is 'No money; no honey!'

 

[Raji Ram]

Love at first sight came to one Iyengar guy, earning lots of money in the U S of A. A pretty and polite girl in our extended family was

his 'catch'! Wedding went on smoothly! She is only a graduate and could not get any descent job in the U S of A. This guy did not want

to spend money to educate her also. Ultimately, since she could not earn any dollar, she was divorced! Poor girl sought the help of one

of her friends, got her masters degree with her help and got a good job. She is staying single and does not want to return to India. :sad:

 

[krish44]

I am not cynical, Sir!

Do you know why many divorces happen even in love marriages?

Today's motto is 'No money; no honey!'

in our times people continued in loveless marriages due to pressure of family and fear of society

these days marriages of this generation, incompatible couple break up

money is always an issue in all marriages -either lack of it or abundance of it

in love marriages where there is no or half hearted family support , there is no mechanism to redress inter personal grievences.

if they cannot reconcile themselves with give and take , there is a possibility of break up

both parties in love before marriage are on their best behaviour and after marriage the relationship deteriorates as they act differently .

those who cannot accept this change in behaviour suffer leading to a separation

I pity such couple

 

[krish44]

Love at first sight came to one Iyengar guy, earning lots of money in the U S of A. A pretty and polite girl in our extended family was

his 'catch'! Wedding went on smoothly! She is only a graduate and could not get any descent job in the U S of A. This guy did not want

to spend money to educate her also. Ultimately, since she could not earn any dollar, she was divorced! Poor girl sought the help of one

of her friends, got her masters degree with her help and got a good job. She is staying single and does not want to return to India. :sad:

iyengar girl in our extended family was smarter . she got her higher education[MS] financed by the boy who proposed to her and married him after getting a job in US

she is happily married with a kid ,job and husband in US

economic independance of women is key to happy marriage

girls can give up their husbands but not their jobs . thats the moral of the story.lol

 

[krish44]

Dear Krish Sir,

Thayir sAdham people are cooler than wheat rOti people!

I have seen most of the mAmis living in Mumbai / Delhi brag much more than Sing. Chennai mAmis

not forgetting to use 'achchA' and 'mathlab' often in their conversation!! :blah:

I would be tempted to say 'ayyOOO...ayyO' in Vadivelu's style!

Dear RRji
I am smarter than you think

I married a traditional Tamil iyengar girl from your sing. chennai

She also uses the word Achcha often due to association with me with lot of love

see the effect of delhi roti.lol

 

[Raji Ram]

But your better half is now a Delhi mAmi! :decision:

 

[sangom]

sangomji
I may add - if the inter caste couple get away from the southern state and go to another metro far away they should have a pretty good life without any pinpricks from anyone

caste related discrimination is relevant only to the state they live in .

if an intercaste couple from tamilnadu are in delhi , no one would really care about the same at least in professional or friend circles .

indian metros have evolved to accept inter caste to a large extent

with the new govt. religion though is becoming an issue

Shri krishji,

Caste is, among us (!) Indians, as much deep-seated, as discrimination based on skin colour in many other societies in this world. I know of a multi-storeyed poshest housing colony in Bengaluru, owned/occupied mostly by the very well-paid IT employees and equally well-off businessmen and others. There are one or two inter-caste couples also living in that colony and I know the great difficulties experienced by most others who belong to the higher castes, in dealing with these one or two ic couples! The long and short of the matter is each one of the others thinks of how best to avoid these couples from coming to functions in their houses, but without giving any publicity to their actual feelings!

Things are not very different in Delhi (Dwarka) where also same thing happens among upper middle class residents.

 

[Vaagmi]

Mr tks, Your post #229 for reference:

Though I may agree or disagree with your views I know you tend to present your position with good analysis.

For both of us this is fourth quadrant activity. My Company’s profit is not going to change depending on whether maash marries a TB or a Karuneegar boy or on whether KO Illai is perfectly happy with her neighbours in US though she was not so with her neighbours back home in India. You are welcome to express your views always. LOL.

The above statement in my view is an aberration.

Let me try to explain.

Compassion can only be described at a human level between people.
Extrapolating what happens at a country level or at a major corporation level to ordinary people is not sound logic.

I am unable to agree with this because it is a dangerous concession you are making. This concession was made to Hitler and we know what happened. A Hitler or each of the commanders of the hit squads he had could be very compassionate to their neighbours but they chose to forget that compassion when they sent a million jews to improvised gas chambers. A EVR can be politeness personified to his Brahmin personal friend but will go about badmouthing the Brahmins in every public platform he was offered. I believe the Government is an aggregate of individual citizens. War or peace , there is always a lakshman rekha which is determined by the caliber of the people of the country.

When I found out that during the Bangladesh war our military went and raped many villagers it was unacceptable to me as a student that people of my country and that too the respected Army people would do that.

I am hearing this for the first time. Let me verify and get back.

Similarly during the riots in 1984?, I heard first hand about stories of Hindus burning small Sardarji children and it was unthinkable to associate such acts with Hindus.

The hindus who indulged in that atrocity are certainly condemnable. But it was not the Government that did those atrocities and that is relevant to our discussion here. The Government offered its apologies by clearly declaring that Blue star was a right step while the riots in Delhi were condemnable.

I think the young lady is describing her relationship to ordinary Americans and she is one such person (and an American first).

My point is that ordinary people are good everywhere whether in US or India or Timbuctoo.

To make the long story short, I believe that at the impressionable age when a young lad lands in a foreign country with wide eyes he looks at every thing with innocent wonder. He is keenly aware of himself. Every thing which is different from what he has experienced back home appears to be novel and unique. It is only after a year or two that he understands the true worth of those novel things. I have lived for sufficiently long in foreign countries and I know what is that experience like. A well balanced individual does not get swept off his feet whereas lesser beings lose their balance.

I conclude that it was a well considered view point and not an aberration.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sravna your post #220:

It is always good for someone in a dilemma to hear from both the sides. You have eloquently brought out your main point. I see two factors at loggerheads here: One is one's individual preference in selection and the other is the preference of others. The latter may be the family, the neighbor and even the society at large. I feel the ideal decision would consider maximizing the long term happiness of the person. This may imply making others also happy. How do you know what to compromise and how much to compromise?

How to maximize the long term happiness is the imponderable thing here. We really do not know how the things will work out in the long term. So we look at the history or the archives and look for past experience and extrapolate it to the future. In a situation where you do not have all the facts in your hand, extrapolating the past experience to the future is the only available mechanism to avoid serious hurt. A young woman who has seen only the last 20 odd years falls back on the experience and advice of elders who have another 30 years more of experience. And that works better than taking an impulsive decision which is supported only by feel good factor given by inexperience and daredevil exploration.

One good way to be foresightful is to fast forward some 30 - 40 years to the future. Visualize objectively whatever could go wrong with either of the options, and what would make you regret more at that time with things going wrong with each of the options? The option which you imagine would give you less cause for regret is very likely the one you will not actually regret later.

Fast forwarding is not easy. If you decide not to regret come what may there will be no regrets and that is the only positive aspect of youngsters taking the plunge.

The catch with this is you have to do this objectively and not be affected by current emotions and you have to think of all the major factors that can go wrong, based on your current knowledge and the projection of such knowledge.

The current knowledge is so insufficient that it is under cloud and can project only a dejavu. So it is dangerous.

So I think the girl and the boy are in the best position to decide though others can give broad guidelines based on their experiences and knowledge that would be helpful in approaching the problem.

Whether you like it or not it is only the girl and boy who decide sometime despite the advices of elders. The effort here is only to caution and encourage a sustained and sufficiently long dialogue with elders.

 

[tks]

Mr tks, Your post #229 for reference:



For both of us this is fourth quadrant activity. My Company’s profit is not going to change depending on whether maash marries a TB or a Karuneegar boy or on whether KO Illai is perfectly happy with her neighbours in US though she was not so with her neighbours back home in India. You are welcome to express your views always. LOL.




Let me try to explain.



I am unable to agree with this because it is a dangerous concession you are making. This concession was made to Hitler and we know what happened. A Hitler or each of the commanders of the hit squads he had could be very compassionate to their neighbours but they chose to forget that compassion when they sent a million jews to improvised gas chambers. A EVR can be politeness personified to his Brahmin personal friend but will go about badmouthing the Brahmins in every public platform he was offered. I believe the Government is an aggregate of individual citizens. War or peace , there is always a lakshman rekha which is determined by the caliber of the people of the country.



I am hearing this for the first time. Let me verify and get back.



The hindus who indulged in that atrocity are certainly condemnable. But it was not the Government that did those atrocities and that is relevant to our discussion here. The Government offered its apologies by clearly declaring that Blue star was a right step while the riots in Delhi were condemnable.



My point is that ordinary people are good everywhere whether in US or India or Timbuctoo.

To make the long story short, I believe that at the impressionable age when a young lad lands in a foreign country with wide eyes he looks at every thing with innocent wonder. He is keenly aware of himself. Every thing which is different from what he has experienced back home appears to be novel and unique. It is only after a year or two that he understands the true worth of those novel things. I have lived for sufficiently long in foreign countries and I know what is that experience like. A well balanced individual does not get swept off his feet whereas lesser beings lose their balance.

I conclude that it was a well considered view point and not an aberration.

Sri Vaagmi

Could not disagree with you more because your advice is actually insulting and can be offensive to any American Citizen.
I am an American Citizen and I dont care because I do not place any weight to many comments here but others may not.

If someone started out by saying "You Indians" are corrupt where you hail from because your government did such and such thing as part an advice, I may not be listening to that person further. It is not wise in my book to start out with an unwarranted insult.

The young lady did not find a new heaven - she was born and raised in America - She is an American Citizen and your advice includes the following insult generalizing about all Americans - We will agree to disagree and I have nothing more to say

"Compassion should be towards every one including animals and all other life forms and not only towards your neighbour. If you have that compassion you wont export contaminated food grains not fit for consumption by even pigs to a third world country just because the country was in dire need of food imports. And to do that and call it a charity PL 480 is the height of deceit. And Americans did that. And they napalmed the Vietnamese to defoliate the forests. These are just two examples of the unspeakable atrocities that were committed by your newly found haven."

 

[prasad1]

If someone started out by saying "You Indians" are corrupt where you hail from because your government did such and such thing as part an advice, I may not be listening to that person further. It is not wise in my book to start out with an unwarranted insu

Compassion should be towards every one including animals and all other life forms and not only towards your neighbour

. But it has to have a start, neighbor is a good start as any. We can only talk about individual's responsibility. We can have an opinion about others responsibility but we can not change it.

Just because one does not have a counterpoint, you don't have to insult others. It is cowardly to wrap your self in a flag and shout at others using the flag as a shield. It is like Arjuna using Shikhandi as a shield to hurl arrows on Bhisma.

In war atrocities are sadly committed, no one condones it.

Do we need to list the atrocities committed in the world? There are list that one can google.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Sir,

How you are able to separate the original text and your reply. Please enlighten on this, since I am unable to segregate the text and my reply.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sir,

How you are able to separate the original text and your reply. Please enlighten on this, since I am unable to segregate the text and my reply.

Dear Chandruji,

If you are posting directly through the Quick reply window as I am doing now, you may use the wrap facility given at the top here. Select the passage from the text that you want to quote and click on wrap icon. That will do the trick. If you are posting from your word processor add the word quote within square brackets in the beginning of the passage you want to reproduce and add /QUOTE within square brackets again at the end of the passage. Please note that it is only the square brackets and the right slash. Then select it and copy paste it to the quick reply window. That will do.

 

[gsirsri]

Dear Maash,
Marriage is the most crucial & ultimately intimate matter in ones life. You are prudent in ascertaining the advice of people belonging to the community to which you belong. You are asking about gothram, poonal, madisar etc which are rather peripheral aspects. You should consider the vital issues which will impact your & your future husbands life, after a meaningful sharing of the assessment of all aspects by your parents, the boy as well as his parents. But the decision should be yours & only your own. Do not act on the opinion or decision of others, which are all only second hand.
May God help you to decide right & bless you with a long, healthy, prosperous & happy married life, with loving offsprings.
Love.
G.S.

 

[Vaagmi]

Mr. tks,

your post #242 for reference:

Could not disagree with you more because your advice is actually insulting and can be offensive to any American Citizen.
I am an American Citizen and I dont care because I do not place any weight to many comments here but others may not.

In the net we are all just netizens. We are free to criticize/appreciate any citizen of any country on a point and that becomes the view point of a netizen and just that. So there is no insult involved here because we do not know anything about the netizen or his motives. Moreover if I were to be told of corruption in high places in India, I will certainly be apologetic to a citizen of another country(a netizen) if there is truth in what is alleged and will not feel insulted. May be we are two different poles in perceiving an insult. It is good that you do not place any weight to any comment in the forum because that way you can insulate yourself from bitter truths and the resultant discomfort that it causes. Others will take care of themselves well.

If someone started out by saying "You Indians" are corrupt where you hail from because your government did such and such thing as part an advice, I may not be listening to that person further. It is not wise in my book to start out with an unwarranted insult.

I will certainly listen to the critical observation and also tell that I do not personally go with that kind of values in the governance of a nation. I will feel insulted only if it was a lie told deliberately to discredit my nation and me. Here what I said is known to the world as a truth--that stinking wheat was exported to third world countries under PL 480, that Vietnam was napalmed indiscriminately in order to deny forest cover to Vietcong guerillas (that naked Vietnamese little girl crying and running for cover with flames on her back was a photo that haunted me for several days), that an A Bomb was dropped to bring to heel a defiant Japan etc., Here the attempt to take cover claiming insult is using an escape hatch to run away from uncomfortable bitter truths.LOL.

The young lady did not find a new heaven - she was born and raised in America - She is an American Citizen and your advice includes the following insult generalizing about all Americans - We will agree to disagree and I have nothing more to say

One small correction. I said haven and not heaven. The rest I have already explained above. I used my right to reply. I am comfortable with your “agree to disagree” proposal. It eminently suits me in the given context. LOL.

 

[sarang]

#229
"When I found out that during the Bangladesh war our military went and raped many villagers it was unacceptable to me as a student that people of my country and that too the respected Army people would do that."

Formation of bangla desh happened in 1971 and most of us were exposed to the events then.

I do not remember there was any reported bad behaviour by indian troops; in fact indian soldiers were welcomed and helped by the locals. Pakistanis were routed in 15 days, pak army surrendered and 90000 pak soldiers were taken prisoners (later released unconditionally without getting anything in return or any investigation in the well published atrocities against bangladesis by pak soldiers.

What stands out is:
1. Killing of bengali hindus, minorities, biharis in hundred thousands is not considered as 'genocide' by some, but death of 700 muslims (and 300 hindus) in gujarat is projected as genocide of muslims by hindus in gujarat. Humanist seculars have no shame to repeat falsehood knowing fully well reality.
2. There is no explicit reference of indian soldiers engaged in war atrocities; stray incidents are possible, but not glaringly reported.

Some info from wiki:

Bangladeshi authorities claim that as many as 3 million people were killed, although theHamoodur Rahman Commission, an official Pakistan Government investigation, put the figure as low as 26,000 civilian casualties.[SUP][26][/SUP] As a result of the conflict, a further eight to ten million people, mostly Hindus,[SUP][27][/SUP] fled the country at the time to seek refuge in neighbouring India.American political scientists Richard Sisson and Leo E. Rose, give an estimate of 300,000 dead, killed by all parties and deny a genocide occurred.[SUP][28]

[/SUP]
Many of those killed were the victims of militias who fought with the West Pakistan Army:Razakars, Al-Shams and Al-Badr forces,[SUP][34][/SUP] at the instruction of the Pakistani Army.[SUP][35][/SUP] There are many mass graves in Bangladesh, and more are continually being discovered (such as one in an old well near a mosque in Dhaka, located in the Mirpur region of the city, which was discovered in August 1999).[SUP][36][/SUP] The first night of war on Bengalis, which is documented in telegrams from the American Consulate in Dhaka to the United States State Department, saw indiscriminate killings of students of Dhaka University and other civilians.[SUP][37][/SUP]
There was significant sectarian violence not only perpetrated by the West Pakistani army,[SUP][38][/SUP]but also by Bengali nationalists against non-Bengali minorities, especially Biharis.
According to political scientist Peter Tomsen, Pakistan's secret service, in conjunction with the political party Jamaat-e-Islami, formed militias such as Al-Badr ("the moon") and the Al-Shams("the sun") to conduct operations against the nationalist movement.[SUP][43][/SUP][SUP][44][/SUP] These militias targeted noncombatants and committed rapes as well as other crimes.[SUP][45][/SUP] Local collaboratorsknown as Razakars also took part in the atrocities.
Jamaat-e-Islami members and some of its leaders collaborated with the Pakistani forces in rapes and targeted killings.
The generally accepted figure for the mass rapes during the nine-month long conflict is 200,000.[SUP][63][/SUP] Numerous women were tortured, raped and killed during the war.[SUP][64][/SUP] Again, exact numbers are not known and are a subject of debate. Bangladeshi sources cite a figure of 200,000 women raped, giving birth to thousands of war-babies. The Pakistani Army also kept numerous Bengali women as sex-slaves inside the Dhaka Cantonment. Most of the girls were captured from Dhaka University and private homes.
The minorities of Bangladesh, especially theHindus, were specific targets of the Pakistani army.[SUP][38][/SUP][SUP][49][/SUP] There was widespread killing of Hindu males, and rapes of women. Documented incidents in which Hindus were massacred in large numbers include theChuknagar massacre, the Jathibhanga massacre, and the Shankharipara massacre.[SUP][75][/SUP] More than 60% of the Bengali refugees who fled to India were Hindus.[SUP][76][/SUP] It is not exactly known what percentage of the people killed by the Pakistan army were Hindus, but it is safe to say it was disproportionately high.[SUP][77][/SUP] This widespread violence against Hindus was motivated by a policy to purge East Pakistan of what was seen as Hindu and Indian influences.

1971 Bangladesh genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Vaagmi]

#229
"When I found out that during the Bangladesh war our military went and raped many villagers it was unacceptable to me as a student that people of my country and that too the respected Army people would do that."

Formation of bangla desh happened in 1971 and most of us were exposed to the events then.

I do not remember there was any reported bad behaviour by indian troops; in fact indian soldiers were welcomed and helped by the locals. Pakistanis were routed in 15 days, pak army surrendered and 90000 pak soldiers were taken prisoners (later released unconditionally without getting anything in return or any investigation in the well published atrocities against bangladesis by pak soldiers.

What stands out is:
1. Killing of bengali hindus, minorities, biharis in hundred thousands is not considered as 'genocide' by some, but death of 700 muslims (and 300 hindus) in gujarat is projected as genocide of muslims by hindus in gujarat. Humanist seculars have no shame to repeat falsehood knowing fully well reality.
2. There is no explicit reference of indian soldiers engaged in war atrocities; stray incidents are possible, but not glaringly reported.

Some info from wiki:

Bangladeshi authorities claim that as many as 3 million people were killed, although theHamoodur Rahman Commission, an official Pakistan Government investigation, put the figure as low as 26,000 civilian casualties.[SUP][26][/SUP] As a result of the conflict, a further eight to ten million people, mostly Hindus,[SUP][27][/SUP]fled the country at the time to seek refuge in neighbouring India.American political scientists Richard Sisson and Leo E. Rose, give an estimate of 300,000 dead, killed by all parties and deny a genocide occurred.[SUP][28]

[/SUP]
Many of those killed were the victims of militias who fought with the West Pakistan Army:Razakars, Al-Shams and Al-Badr forces,[SUP][34][/SUP] at the instruction of the Pakistani Army.[SUP][35][/SUP] There are many mass graves in Bangladesh, and more are continually being discovered (such as one in an old well near a mosque in Dhaka, located in the Mirpur region of the city, which was discovered in August 1999).[SUP][36][/SUP] The first night of war on Bengalis, which is documented in telegrams from the American Consulate in Dhaka to the United States State Department, saw indiscriminate killings of students of Dhaka University and other civilians.[SUP][37][/SUP]
There was significant sectarian violence not only perpetrated by the West Pakistani army,[SUP][38][/SUP]but also by Bengali nationalists against non-Bengali minorities, especially Biharis.
According to political scientist Peter Tomsen, Pakistan's secret service, in conjunction with the political party Jamaat-e-Islami, formed militias such as Al-Badr ("the moon") and the Al-Shams("the sun") to conduct operations against the nationalist movement.[SUP][43][/SUP][SUP][44][/SUP] These militias targeted noncombatants and committed rapes as well as other crimes.[SUP][45][/SUP] Local collaboratorsknown as Razakars also took part in the atrocities.
Jamaat-e-Islami members and some of its leaders collaborated with the Pakistani forces in rapes and targeted killings.
The generally accepted figure for the mass rapes during the nine-month long conflict is 200,000.[SUP][63][/SUP] Numerous women were tortured, raped and killed during the war.[SUP][64][/SUP] Again, exact numbers are not known and are a subject of debate. Bangladeshi sources cite a figure of 200,000 women raped, giving birth to thousands of war-babies. The Pakistani Army also kept numerous Bengali women as sex-slaves inside the Dhaka Cantonment. Most of the girls were captured from Dhaka University and private homes.
The minorities of Bangladesh, especially theHindus, were specific targets of the Pakistani army.[SUP][38][/SUP][SUP][49][/SUP] There was widespread killing of Hindu males, and rapes of women. Documented incidents in which Hindus were massacred in large numbers include theChuknagar massacre, the Jathibhanga massacre, and the Shankharipara massacre.[SUP][75][/SUP] More than 60% of the Bengali refugees who fled to India were Hindus.[SUP][76][/SUP] It is not exactly known what percentage of the people killed by the Pakistan army were Hindus, but it is safe to say it was disproportionately high.[SUP][77][/SUP] This widespread violence against Hindus was motivated by a policy to purge East Pakistan of what was seen as Hindu and Indian influences.

1971 Bangladesh genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dear Sarang,

Thank you for the reference. I hope Mr. tks gives his source of info so that a balanced view can be taken.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Chandruji,

If you are posting directly through the Quick reply window as I am doing now, you may use the wrap facility given at the top here. Select the passage from the text that you want to quote and click on wrap icon. That will do the trick. If you are posting from your word processor add the word quote within square brackets in the beginning of the passage you want to reproduce and add /QUOTE within square brackets again at the end of the passage. Please note that it is only the square brackets and the right slash. Then select it and copy paste it to the quick reply window. That will do.

Dear Mr Vaagmi,

Thank you very much, Sir.