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Wedding between Tamil Brahmin and Seer Karuneegar

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Dear Krish Sir,

In most of the I R weddings I have seen, the guy proposes to the girl first and so the girl dominates! We have quite a few I R weddings

in our family circle. When girl is a tambram, the other religion guy becomes so fond of 'thachchi mammu' that he is happy to have

only that item for his dinner when he visits in-laws (even if it is every week end)! :D

When the guy is a tambram, he surrenders to the girl completely and dances to her tune! He will do any hard work for the sake of the

dominating better half at his in-law's house, by spending his full vacation with them, not caring to visit other relatives in India! :lol:
RRji
You are talking of IR/IC cases where they get some recognition if not total acceptance from inlaws

these are some recent cases

Mostly it used to be total ostracism including disowning of such children. now close relatives are a bit liberal . mostly these families who accept these couples are from

urban areas

In my own and extended family we have moved from total rejection to slow recognition .but they are kept out of family decision making processes and are not consulted

on any issue relating to family inspite of all tall talk of liberal mindset.
 
Namaskaram to all!

I am tamil brahmin iyer girl. I like a guy who is not a brahmin. He belongs to a caste called the Karuneegar/Seer Karuneegar Pillai and he belongs to Janaka Maharishi gothram.

I read that Karuneegars are from Kayasthas lineage and that they belong to both brahmin and kshatriya varnas. So can I consider him as a brahmin. Will he be eligible to wear a poonal during our wedding?

I am usually not a person who is so much into castes but this would really help when I am talking to my parents regarding the same.

My mom says if I marry a person who is not a brahmin, I lose my brahmin status and that I am not even allowed to wear madissar ( which is one of my favorite attire :( ).

Any insights would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance.


Maash

Karuneegars are like Kaayasthas of North India; they are not brahmins by caste. So, you do not have any talking points to buttress your case when talking to your parents about your liking that Karuneegar guy.

Madisaar is just another form of female dress and brahmins have no patent rights over it; so I feel you may wear it provided your would-be husband does not object your wearing it either for the marriage ceremony or later on, in your household.
 
Dear,Vaggmi
I read your post no.186.I am interested to talk to you on phone,since we both live in Madras.My phone no. is 04424806871.I am eager to get introduced to those young,intelligent,well educated,still follow our customs,which is rare these days.

thanking you
Rishikesan

Sri Rishikesanji,

I was away (Malaysia and Thailand holidaying) from India and so I am replying on getting back. I checked up with one of those young sripatham thaangi about your request. He said they are a group who do this service without expecting any exposure to media or public and so would like keep a low profile. They do the service of carrying the Lord on their shoulders out of immense amount of bhakti without any expectations. So he has politely declined your request for an introduction. I would suggest that you may approach any of these lads in any Vishnu Temple when the God's deity is taken out on procession and your self can get to know them. They are a large group of youngsters well employed and well educated who exchange info about which temple in Chennai requires the services to carry the deities on any given day. If there are not enough members available for the service in the given area, members from other parts of the city are advised to go and offer the services. All this is done through SMSs and email messages.

I am sure you would be happy to know that such youngsters do exist.
 
Dear mr. Vaggmi, Thank you for prompt reply. I expected this ,because such youngsters, no wonder would not like to get deviated from their unstinted Devotion to God & I must feel proud that these youngsters do a great Service to our T. B community at large, May such TRIBE grow in number.

Rishikesan
 
Hi,
Good to meet you all again after a long time .

Maash,
Nothing wrong or right. please go ahead and do what you think. But please make sure your athai, athimber , chittappa , chithi or mama thatha or pukkathu mami and all don't make any noise and influence your parents.


One good thing , at least is you will still worship the same Hindu Gods and follow Hindu traditions.
 
Dear Maash,

I've never posted here before (never even knew there was such a forum), came across your question and felt compelled to share my story with you.

I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.

The thing is, when you are privileged enough to view your culture through the lens of your other culture, you begin to see what is worth passing on, and what is not. When I come to India, the things I love and dislike about being American become glaringly obvious to me. Same for when I'm in America, the things I love and dislike about being culturally Indian stand out prominently. This gives you the power to pick and choose which values from each culture you feel most strongly about.

From Indian culture -- our food, spirituality, music and dance, Hinduism, vegetarianism (for many, esp Brahmins here), respect for elders, cleanliness, focus on education, thriftiness, and seva.

From American culture -- compassion towards your neighbor, orderliness in public, civic pride, non-discrimination, acceptance and tolerance of those of all stripes, dedication to ones chosen profession, spirit of adventure and seeking new experiences beyond ones comfort zone.

One of the first things to go is the discrimination pervasive in the caste system.

As you can see I am easily but incorrectly stereotyped because of my American nationality. When you live in America, you quickly discover that the prejudices of caste are also largely based on incorrect stereotypes. One of the most shameful of our Indian customs is this ridiculous notion that caste should dictate any role in whether two people should marry, in an arranged marriage or otherwise. All that matters is how willing to compromise and openminded the two are, and how willing to allow their families opinions to influence their confidence in the match.

I married a Chettiar boy through a love marriage who was also born and raised here. He is intelligent, respectful, and going somewhere in his life. He loves our food and speaks Tamil better than I do. He wasn't familiar with all of our Brahmin customs but has no qualms about me continuing on with them. Likewise, I am learning about his Chettiar customs and making room for them in our home.

Our pooja cabinet has Balaji and Ganesha, Sri Rangantha and Kali, Saligramam and Lingam. They each mean something to both of us. We are Hindus. I try his mom's recipes out. He loves my mother's cooking. We share in our common Indian and American cultures. It hasn't always been easy, but we're building a life together.

My parents were a little hesitant at first, mainly because they hadn't gotten to know him yet. Now, my mom makes his favorite dishes for him. Any qualms they had disappeared with my Chitti's approval. She's a lovely women who had a tough break in life. Her husband, a Brahmin in name only who beat her and drank too much, divorced her when she had two small kids. She lives in India. She met my to-be and flatly told my parents -- doesn't matter what caste he is. He's quality.

As she learnt the hard way, caste doesn't confer quality. Only character does.

Our future children will be of both castes. They can be Iyengars with the Iyengars, and Chettiars with the Chettiars. And with anyone who doesn't mind of caste, they will be Indian, and American. Our partnership in life is 50/50, and so our respective contributions to our little family culture is also equal. Just because I am a woman doesn't mean everything I was before marriage somehow gets "erased." That's stupid. I go with him to his kuladaivam, and he to mine when we visit India.

Some Brahmins will probably treat me and my children as inferior to them, and some Non-Brahmins will probably look on our arrangement as scandalous, but I'm sure Naryana Himself will have a few choice words for them when the time comes, and the rest of the 5 billion people on the planet won't care at all.

Marriage is ALL ABOUT making space for each other in your lives. How willing are you to do this? How willing is your partner? What's more important to you, your parents approval, your communities approval, or the person you want to marry? There's no right answer to this last question. You have to know yourself. Marry if that's what you want, but it should be done without fear or hesitation, otherwise its unfair to your partner. To get your mother's approval, let them meet and get to know one another.

Divisions fall quickly when you get to know the human, and not the label. Half of what one thinks one knows about someone persona is probably wrong, if they are basing it on caste alone.

I'm not going to lie to you here -- without a supportive community, any marriage can become difficult. I'm sure in India some of the difficulty is more pronounced. If you choose to proceed with marriage, you need to find people who support you and surround yourselves with them.

I wish you and your loved ones all the best in life and happiness.
 
Maash,
Nothing wrong or right. please go ahead and do what you think. But please make sure your athai, athimber , chittappa , chithi or mama thatha or pukkathu mami and all don't make any noise and influence your parents.
One good thing , at least is you will still worship the same Hindu Gods and follow Hindu traditions.

Maash,

Yes. Even if they make any noise just take the army of friends and like-minded people from this forum who will drown the noise with their high decibel bellowing. Poor athai, athimber, chiththappa, chithi, mama thaththa and pukkathu mami. They stand no chance against the coordinated "assault" of the extremely intelligent and matured crowd here. LOL.
 
Dear mr. Vaggmi, Thank you for prompt reply. I expected this ,because such youngsters, no wonder would not like to get deviated from their unstinted Devotion to God & I must feel proud that these youngsters do a great Service to our T. B community at large, May such TRIBE grow in number.

Rishikesan

Rishikesanji,

That was so smart of you. Good. Thanks. LOL
 
I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.


I am not against inter caste marriage if it is agreed to by both parties.

Since every caste has different customs and conventions, it is quite natural parents expect to continue such practices thru their children, and children may some times not like such practices.


From American culture -- compassion towards your neighbor, orderliness in public, civic pride, non-discrimination, acceptance and tolerance of those of all stripes, dedication to ones chosen profession, spirit of adventure and seeking new experiences beyond ones comfort zone.


The above is due to strict rules and regulations stipulated by American Govt. No one is above law. The same can be accomplished in India also if we have strict laws.

But it is quite amusing to note that there is no discrimination in America. Are blacks and Muslims (after 9/11) are treated on par with white Americans.


I married a Chettiar boy through a love marriage who was also born and raised here. He is intelligent, respectful, and going somewhere in his life. He loves our food and speaks Tamil better than I do. He wasn't familiar with all of our Brahmin customs but has no qualms about me continuing on with them. Likewise, I am learning about his Chettiar customs and making room for them in our home.

My parents were a little hesitant at first, mainly because they hadn't gotten to know him yet. Now, my mom makes his favorite dishes for him. Any qualms they had disappeared with my Chitti's approval. She's a lovely women who had a tough break in life. Her husband, a Brahmin in name only who beat her and drank too much, divorced her when she had two small kids. She lives in India. She met my to-be and flatly told my parents -- doesn't matter what caste he is. He's quality. As she learnt the hard way, caste doesn't confer quality. Only character does.


Since your Chitti does not have a successful married life, she probably thought all brahmin boys are like her husband, which might have prompted her to think differently which advising your mother. I have come across couple of inter caste marriages, in which brahmin girls marrying non-brahmin boys. In all the cases, it was due to indifference attitude of parents or either mother or father during their pre-marriage years. It shows that women are probably very sensitive and inflict serious damage whenever opportunity arises, in such cases.

Our future children will be of both castes. They can be Iyengars with the Iyengars, and Chettiars with the Chettiars. And with anyone who doesn't mind of caste, they will be Indian, and American. Our partnership in life is 50/50, and so our respective contributions to our little family culture is also equal. Just because I am a woman doesn't mean everything I was before marriage somehow gets "erased." That's stupid. I go with him to his kuladaivam, and he to mine when we visit India.


Why do u want to maintain caste identity? You will appreciate if you call yourself and your husband as Hindus, instead of Iyengar and Chettiar respectively and will you call your children 'Iyengar Chettiar' instead of HIndus? In a similar marriage happened in Chennai, in which a popular person involved who has a daughter, the mother in law in an interview said that her granddaughter is given all freedom but must be a non-vegetarian. Her daughter in law is still a vegetarian, I think. So, sacrifices have to be made.

Some Brahmins will probably treat me and my children as inferior to them, and some Non-Brahmins will probably look on our arrangement as scandalous, but I'm sure Naryana Himself will have a few choice words for them when the time comes, and the rest of the 5 billion people on the planet won't care at all.

It is quite natural and at the same time, you will appreciate that some brahmins, even residing in the US, do not want to embarrass their parents.


Marriage is ALL ABOUT making space for each other in your lives. How willing are you to do this? How willing is your partner? What's more important to you, your parents approval, your communities approval, or the person you want to marry? There's no right answer to this last question. You have to know yourself. Marry if that's what you want, but it should be done without fear or hesitation, otherwise its unfair to your partner. To get your mother's approval, let them meet and get to know one another.

This is due to the economic independence enjoyed by ladies, of late and nothing new.


Divisions fall quickly when you get to know the human, and not the label. Half of what one thinks one knows about someone persona is probably wrong, if they are basing it on caste alone.

I'm not going to lie to you here -- without a supportive community, any marriage can become difficult. I'm sure in India some of the difficulty is more pronounced. If you choose to proceed with marriage, you need to find people who support you and surround yourselves with them.


This is the resultant outcome of your inter caste marriage.


PS: I used to attend Carnatic Music concerts (though I am not an expert but due to advance age), in which lot of girls (new comers) are participating. In most of the cases, they are all very well educated, some have foreign degrees. The point is some of those who are married, have chosen their partners from the same caste. It shows that parents play a major role in daughter's marriage. If the parents are friendly, lovable, understanding, caring, they are able to make their daughters accept same caste marriage. But, in other cases, if parents are not very serious, evasive, despite giving good education, may end up with embarrassment.

My co tenant, residing opposite to my flat, married a NB girl and she virtually speaks, behaves like a brahmin girl.
 
Dear Maash,

I've never posted here before (never even knew there was such a forum), came across your question and felt compelled to share my story with you.

I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.

The thing is, when you are privileged enough to view your culture through the lens of your other culture, you begin to see what is worth passing on, and what is not. When I come to India, the things I love and dislike about being American become glaringly obvious to me. Same for when I'm in America, the things I love and dislike about being culturally Indian stand out prominently. This gives you the power to pick and choose which values from each culture you feel most strongly about.

From Indian culture -- our food, spirituality, music and dance, Hinduism, vegetarianism (for many, esp Brahmins here), respect for elders, cleanliness, focus on education, thriftiness, and seva.

From American culture -- compassion towards your neighbor, orderliness in public, civic pride, non-discrimination, acceptance and tolerance of those of all stripes, dedication to ones chosen profession, spirit of adventure and seeking new experiences beyond ones comfort zone.

One of the first things to go is the discrimination pervasive in the caste system.

As you can see I am easily but incorrectly stereotyped because of my American nationality. When you live in America, you quickly discover that the prejudices of caste are also largely based on incorrect stereotypes. One of the most shameful of our Indian customs is this ridiculous notion that caste should dictate any role in whether two people should marry, in an arranged marriage or otherwise. All that matters is how willing to compromise and openminded the two are, and how willing to allow their families opinions to influence their confidence in the match.

I married a Chettiar boy through a love marriage who was also born and raised here. He is intelligent, respectful, and going somewhere in his life. He loves our food and speaks Tamil better than I do. He wasn't familiar with all of our Brahmin customs but has no qualms about me continuing on with them. Likewise, I am learning about his Chettiar customs and making room for them in our home.

Our pooja cabinet has Balaji and Ganesha, Sri Rangantha and Kali, Saligramam and Lingam. They each mean something to both of us. We are Hindus. I try his mom's recipes out. He loves my mother's cooking. We share in our common Indian and American cultures. It hasn't always been easy, but we're building a life together.

My parents were a little hesitant at first, mainly because they hadn't gotten to know him yet. Now, my mom makes his favorite dishes for him. Any qualms they had disappeared with my Chitti's approval. She's a lovely women who had a tough break in life. Her husband, a Brahmin in name only who beat her and drank too much, divorced her when she had two small kids. She lives in India. She met my to-be and flatly told my parents -- doesn't matter what caste he is. He's quality.

As she learnt the hard way, caste doesn't confer quality. Only character does.

Our future children will be of both castes. They can be Iyengars with the Iyengars, and Chettiars with the Chettiars. And with anyone who doesn't mind of caste, they will be Indian, and American. Our partnership in life is 50/50, and so our respective contributions to our little family culture is also equal. Just because I am a woman doesn't mean everything I was before marriage somehow gets "erased." That's stupid. I go with him to his kuladaivam, and he to mine when we visit India.

Some Brahmins will probably treat me and my children as inferior to them, and some Non-Brahmins will probably look on our arrangement as scandalous, but I'm sure Naryana Himself will have a few choice words for them when the time comes, and the rest of the 5 billion people on the planet won't care at all.

Marriage is ALL ABOUT making space for each other in your lives. How willing are you to do this? How willing is your partner? What's more important to you, your parents approval, your communities approval, or the person you want to marry? There's no right answer to this last question. You have to know yourself. Marry if that's what you want, but it should be done without fear or hesitation, otherwise its unfair to your partner. To get your mother's approval, let them meet and get to know one another.

Divisions fall quickly when you get to know the human, and not the label. Half of what one thinks one knows about someone persona is probably wrong, if they are basing it on caste alone.

I'm not going to lie to you here -- without a supportive community, any marriage can become difficult. I'm sure in India some of the difficulty is more pronounced. If you choose to proceed with marriage, you need to find people who support you and surround yourselves with them.

I wish you and your loved ones all the best in life and happiness.

Very well written post reflecting your values !
 
T. Brahmins marrying Non-Brahmin Boys

Very well written post reflecting your values !

In this post , some practical aspects have been elaborated esp. by Kurai onrum Illai ( the Girl married a Chettiar ) In the last 5 to 10 years , due to many reasons our Girls Love other boys in N.Bs. & we all now realise that the concerned Parents relent , may be Orthodox but seeing their helplessness accept & get the marriage celebrated. Only the Mind would not fully accept. But If the Boys/ their families are decent, they get reconciled. & that is the practice these days,
But despite that type of Marriages a good % of Girls marry Brahmin boys , either from India or from U.S. where both study to=gether or work to-gether. In such cases the respective Parents are EXITED & boast about the Boy ? Girl, respectively All T. Bs would like such Love matters & take pride in Visiting , later for Deliveries & pleasure trips.
Let us wish & pray that, let the Girls / Parents look for either Tamil or any Brahmin Boys & if they do not succeed & out of Dejection are encouraged to look for really Good Boys & respectable Families from N.B s.
It is my assessment that there is real shortage of Tamil Brahmin Girls & in this KAKIYUGAM we have to expect Inter-caste alliances , no matter, who is responsible ?
are bound to increase.We can be sure that our Girls & Boys do follow minimum of our culture & that habit will protect them from doing wrong things , wherever they may live. Let us All feel, ultimately proud & refrain from unnecessary criticism, which would lead us no where ?


Sincerely,
Rishikesan
 
Dear Maash,

I've never posted here before (never even knew there was such a forum), came across your question and felt compelled to share my story with you.
....

Excellent advice through out based on actual experience and reflections on them. One important additional point though.The persons involved in each case are different including the boy and the girl. So that also has to be factored in while trying to solve the problem. For example to convince someone, the approach to one who is very adamant may be different than to one who has some flexibility and so on.
 
Last edited:
Dear Maash,

I've never posted here before (never even knew there was such a forum), came across your question and felt compelled to share my story with you.

I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.


< clipped >


I wish you and your loved ones all the best in life and happiness.

Smt. K-O-Illai,

Yours is a well-written post. But to my understanding, it comes out of the American/Western point of view about marriage and that, imo, is basically a male/female of marriageable age finding a sexual mate. This arrangement or contract may or may not work life-long and people who subscribe to this philosophy do not attach much importance to the so-called marriage going "phut" except in relation to the financial aspects of the break-up; hence it comes down to the dissolution of a partnership firm or business!

The ancient Indian view of marriage is somewhat different, and it had both desirable and undesirable aspects when compared to the above. Still, the indian notion of marriage was, and has been, different.

Today, even in India the western notions, culture and way of life are gaining prominence in a very fast pace and so your advice to Maash is not at all irrelevant. But if Maash and her husband are to live in India itself, there could be many pin-pricks in their day-to-day living unless they can be in the "upper crust" of the Indian society.

I only hope that Maash is able to understand the nuances and take a decision.
 
Dear Maash,

I've never posted here before (never even knew there was such a forum), came across your question and felt compelled to share my story with you.

I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.

The thing is, when you are privileged enough to view your culture through the lens of your other culture, you begin to see what is worth passing on, and what is not. When I come to India, the things I love and dislike about being American become glaringly obvious to me. Same for when I'm in America, the things I love and dislike about being culturally Indian stand out prominently. This gives you the power to pick and choose which values from each culture you feel most strongly about.

From Indian culture -- our food, spirituality, music and dance, Hinduism, vegetarianism (for many, esp Brahmins here), respect for elders, cleanliness, focus on education, thriftiness, and seva.

From American culture -- compassion towards your neighbor, orderliness in public, civic pride, non-discrimination, acceptance and tolerance of those of all stripes, dedication to ones chosen profession, spirit of adventure and seeking new experiences beyond ones comfort zone.

One of the first things to go is the discrimination pervasive in the caste system.

As you can see I am easily but incorrectly stereotyped because of my American nationality. When you live in America, you quickly discover that the prejudices of caste are also largely based on incorrect stereotypes. One of the most shameful of our Indian customs is this ridiculous notion that caste should dictate any role in whether two people should marry, in an arranged marriage or otherwise. All that matters is how willing to compromise and openminded the two are, and how willing to allow their families opinions to influence their confidence in the match.

I married a Chettiar boy through a love marriage who was also born and raised here. He is intelligent, respectful, and going somewhere in his life. He loves our food and speaks Tamil better than I do. He wasn't familiar with all of our Brahmin customs but has no qualms about me continuing on with them. Likewise, I am learning about his Chettiar customs and making room for them in our home.

Our pooja cabinet has Balaji and Ganesha, Sri Rangantha and Kali, Saligramam and Lingam. They each mean something to both of us. We are Hindus. I try his mom's recipes out. He loves my mother's cooking. We share in our common Indian and American cultures. It hasn't always been easy, but we're building a life together.

My parents were a little hesitant at first, mainly because they hadn't gotten to know him yet. Now, my mom makes his favorite dishes for him. Any qualms they had disappeared with my Chitti's approval. She's a lovely women who had a tough break in life. Her husband, a Brahmin in name only who beat her and drank too much, divorced her when she had two small kids. She lives in India. She met my to-be and flatly told my parents -- doesn't matter what caste he is. He's quality.

As she learnt the hard way, caste doesn't confer quality. Only character does.

Our future children will be of both castes. They can be Iyengars with the Iyengars, and Chettiars with the Chettiars. And with anyone who doesn't mind of caste, they will be Indian, and American. Our partnership in life is 50/50, and so our respective contributions to our little family culture is also equal. Just because I am a woman doesn't mean everything I was before marriage somehow gets "erased." That's stupid. I go with him to his kuladaivam, and he to mine when we visit India.

Some Brahmins will probably treat me and my children as inferior to them, and some Non-Brahmins will probably look on our arrangement as scandalous, but I'm sure Naryana Himself will have a few choice words for them when the time comes, and the rest of the 5 billion people on the planet won't care at all.

Marriage is ALL ABOUT making space for each other in your lives. How willing are you to do this? How willing is your partner? What's more important to you, your parents approval, your communities approval, or the person you want to marry? There's no right answer to this last question. You have to know yourself. Marry if that's what you want, but it should be done without fear or hesitation, otherwise its unfair to your partner. To get your mother's approval, let them meet and get to know one another.

Divisions fall quickly when you get to know the human, and not the label. Half of what one thinks one knows about someone persona is probably wrong, if they are basing it on caste alone.

I'm not going to lie to you here -- without a supportive community, any marriage can become difficult. I'm sure in India some of the difficulty is more pronounced. If you choose to proceed with marriage, you need to find people who support you and surround yourselves with them.

I wish you and your loved ones all the best in life and happiness.

Dear KOI,

You have shared your life story...It is your personal choice...

But I am unable to support it!

If everyone is going to follow your way!

And if that is going to be the TB way,

Our community is hurtling towards extinction this century!

It is going rudderless!

It is going directionless!

It has started believing "whatever is white is milk" and justifying its behavior, thoughts and actions!
 
sangomji
I may add - if the inter caste couple get away from the southern state and go to another metro far away they should have a pretty good life without any pinpricks from anyone

caste related discrimination is relevant only to the state they live in .

if an intercaste couple from tamilnadu are in delhi , no one would really care about the same at least in professional or friend circles .

indian metros have evolved to accept inter caste to a large extent

with the new govt. religion though is becoming an issue
 
Dear KOI,

You have shared your life story...It is your personal choice...

But I am unable to support it!

If everyone is going to follow your way!

And if that is going to be the TB way,

Our community is hurtling towards extinction this century!

It is going rudderless!

It is going directionless!

It has started believing "whatever is white is milk" and justifying its behavior, thoughts and actions!

Dear Vgane ji,

When I read the post of Kurai O I ji..I was thinking "wow what a beautiful post".

She as indeed written her post ever so beautifully in gentle words without hurting anyone's sentiment..truly great indeed.

In her post I see the humbleness of a true Hindu..a person who is willing to see beyond caste and petty differences of life.

I can surely understand that any man will surely fall in love with a such a lovely mind.

In fact she has full of values of humanity.

I am sure none of us could ever write such a lovely post like she did.

In fact she can show us all directions.
 
vganeji
in our lifetime , we left the choice of mate to our parents . some of our parents consulted us about the mate before marriage

now times have changed

increasingly it is the choice of the persons getting married . both girl and boy are often economic entities and they would like the choice of mate to be left to them

so caste, horoscopes ,family status take a back seat in decision making.

if our children consult us before marriage ,it is out of courtesy. it would be wise to not come in their way and remove their right to choose what is good for them

our youngsters will evolve a new society where caste, colour will cease to matter and decent human values such as honesty, competence and equality in partnership will

take precedence .IMHO it is good for all
 
#206 by kurai ondrum illai

Dear KO Illai,

I am glad that you came in and posted your views. You are articulate and have presented your views cogently and nicely unlike the half-baked Womens’ Libbers here. They did not care to present a PIO’s views clearly and instead only goaded a misguided and unsure young girl in India. To that extent I welcome your presentation. Now your view point for a critical examination:

I'm an Iyengar woman who was born and raised in America. There is a stereotype among Indians in India that NRI's like me are immoral, completely Westernized, and have "no culture." This stereotype is unfortunately perpetuated in Bollywood and among traditionalists in India. It couldn't be further from the truth. Most of us raised here are raised with a sense of culture, almost urgently passed onto us through our parents and larger Indian communities, who were always fearful of the dilution effect of the larger Western society. Most of us are far more conservative than our Indian counterparts in India, who as they like to say, "freak out" every chance they get. I've lost count at the number of times an Indian (from India) is shocked -- shocked!! -- that I enjoy Indian music (of all stripes), know the basic shlokas, completed my Arangetram, am comfortable with Tamil, call my parents Amma and Appa, visit the Temple, maintain my vegetarianism, and prefer our south Indian cuisine above any other. My estimation is that the majority of us NRI's, with perhaps varying knowledge of our culture, actually have a deep love and respect for it, and have become quite adept at mingling the best of our two worlds.

It is interesting to note that in this forum I am coming across only Iyengar women who have married IC/IR grooms and you are just one more. Of course Maash was an exception. May be this has something to do with the forum discipline here and more about it in some other thread some other time. LOL. I note with interest the fact that you have mentioned about the shock and surprise of Indians at your cultural disposition, your love for Indian music, your knowledge of basic slokas, your arangetram, your Tamil, your Amma and Appa, your visit to temples, your vegetarianism and love for south Indian cuisine etc., It is really good that you are so much a Tamil Iyengar in your tastes, culture and interests and yet you missed on just a very important aspect-that of respecting your parents’ wisdom, wishes and judgment in the matter of selection of a groom for you. It is just like serving a six course sumptuous dinner to a hungry old brahmin complete with six types of payasam on a big freshly cleaned plantain leaf and serving also just a piece of bone marrow of a lamb in one corner of the plantain leaf. That makes the whole dinner a poison to him. LOL. When you mingled the cultures of India and west, perhaps the concoction you ended up with was a deadly brew the effects of which are evident. Or is it that your parents did not bother about who you chose? If that is the case we will have to take this discussion one generation back.

The thing is, when you are privileged enough to view your culture through the lens of your other culture, you begin to see what is worth passing on, and what is not. When I come to India, the things I love and dislike about being American become glaringly obvious to me. Same for when I'm in America, the things I love and dislike about being culturally Indian stand out prominently. This gives you the power to pick and choose which values from each culture you feel most strongly about.

That was a nice way of putting it. I agree. This happens to every Indian who goes to a foreign country. He/she becomes keenly aware of himself/herself. Now let us see your elaboration on this.

From Indian culture -- our food, spirituality, music and dance, Hinduism, vegetarianism (for many, esp Brahmins here), respect for elders, cleanliness, focus on education, thriftiness, and seva.

Respect for elders stands out here. Did you drop it or kept it with you? If you had kept don’t you think you would have listened to your elders’ advices?

From American culture -- compassion towards your neighbor, orderliness in public, civic pride, non-discrimination, acceptance and tolerance of those of all stripes, dedication to ones chosen profession, spirit of adventure and seeking new experiences beyond ones comfort zone.

Removed from the context these aspects of what you prefer to call culture lose their meaning. Now let me show how.


  1. Compassion should be towards every one including animals and all other life forms and not only towards your neighbour. If you have that compassion you wont export contaminated food grains not fit for consumption by even pigs to a third world country just because the country was in dire need of food imports. And to do that and call it a charity PL 480 is the height of deceit. And Americans did that. And they napalmed the Vietnamese to defoliate the forests. These are just two examples of the unspeakable atrocities that were committed by your newly found haven. So much for American compassion. To be eligible for their compassion you have to be from the IIT of India and a fit candidate for further studies in one of the Ivy League portals (because you have potentials) or at least a sheep easily convertible to Christianity.


  1. Orderliness comes with physical infrastructure. An ancient civilization and a newly found continent with its newly built infrastructures can not be compared. If they have to be compared allowance has to be made for the historical factors. This is not to justify disorderliness.
  2. The less said about non-discrimination there the better it is. And as for tolerance your home culture is far superior. It has accommodated more than any other culture in the world.


One of the first things to go is the discrimination pervasive in the caste system.

What have you understood of castes? It is not clear here. So no scope to comment.

As you can see I am easily but incorrectly stereotyped because of my American nationality. When you live in America, you quickly discover that the prejudices of caste are also largely based on incorrect stereotypes. One of the most shameful of our Indian customs is this ridiculous notion that caste should dictate any role in whether two people should marry, in an arranged marriage or otherwise. All that matters is how willing to compromise and openminded the two are, and how willing to allow their families opinions to influence their confidence in the match.

I married a Chettiar boy through a love marriage who was also born and raised here. He is intelligent, respectful, and going somewhere in his life. He loves our food and speaks Tamil better than I do. He wasn't familiar with all of our Brahmin customs but has no qualms about me continuing on with them. Likewise, I am learning about his Chettiar customs and making room for them in our home.

Our pooja cabinet has Balaji and Ganesha, Sri Rangantha and Kali, Saligramam and Lingam. They each mean something to both of us. We are Hindus. I try his mom's recipes out. He loves my mother's cooking. We share in our common Indian and American cultures. It hasn't always been easy, but we're building a life together.

My parents were a little hesitant at first, mainly because they hadn't gotten to know him yet. Now, my mom makes his favorite dishes for him. Any qualms they had disappeared with my Chitti's approval. She's a lovely women who had a tough break in life. Her husband, a Brahmin in name only who beat her and drank too much, divorced her when she had two small kids. She lives in India. She met my to-be and flatly told my parents -- doesn't matter what caste he is. He's quality.

These are nothing new. We have heard this said by every IC marriage bride. Somehow the grooms never come here to speak about what they feel about this. LOL. Perhaps they have no value when coming to influence gullible girls coming here asking for advice.

You have not understood castes of Hindu religion. So your views are flawed to start with. Discrimination is based on upper and lower status perceived and there is nothing superior or inferior in caste system per se. It is all politics of a virulent variety peddled in this country. Hatred merchants sell that well and it is unfortunate that you have bought it.

America is a melting pot. You are inside that melting pot melting along with so many other civilizations there inside the pot. So your experience has no relevance to Maash an Indian girl living here in India. For you in US what you have chosen may be perfectly alright. But, for an Indian girl here, to choose a NB boy for a groom is a compromise and the question is why should she make that compromise. When a TB girl can marry a TB boy here and live happily (your chithi is an exception) why should she mix bloods, unsure of the consequences? And there is no compelling reason to do that. The society is not yet skewed to an extent that there are no eligible TB bachelor boys here willing to marry. And if the girls while studying in the west fall a victim to the tyranny of their hormones and marry NBs, let them live happily or unhappily after that. Brahmins here do not lose sleep over that.

As she learnt the hard way, caste doesn't confer quality. Only character does.

Neither caste nor character confer the qualities required for a marriage. Just as a Brahmin boy can turn out to be an alcoholic a NB boy with sterling character may turn out to be a good for nothing husband. We in India use caste as a tag to rule out many bad possibilities and then go for an individual check about character, fitness for marriage etc., Because you have prejudices about caste you equate caste with character as if they are unpairable.

Our future children will be of both castes. They can be Iyengars with the Iyengars, and Chettiars with the Chettiars. And with anyone who doesn't mind of caste, they will be Indian, and American. Our partnership in life is 50/50, and so our respective contributions to our little family culture is also equal. Just because I am a woman doesn't mean everything I was before marriage somehow gets "erased." That's stupid. I go with him to his kuladaivam, and he to mine when we visit India.

Why all this confusion? Why bother about castes if they are such antithesis to character? Forget about being Iyengar or Chettiyar. Be just yourself. That would be better. And a small bit of information. There is no kuladeivam concept among Iyengars because they worship only Srimannarayana. The numerous kuladeivams such as Kali, Sastha, Maadan, Durgai etc are relevant only to non-iyengars. LOL.

Some Brahmins will probably treat me and my children as inferior to them, and some Non-Brahmins will probably look on our arrangement as scandalous, but I'm sure Naryana Himself will have a few choice words for them when the time comes, and the rest of the 5 billion people on the planet won't care at all.

Vaishnavam will not treat you or your children as inferior. They will accept you all as Iyengars if you undergo the Samasrayanam. As for marriage of your children, you may come across resistance from Iyengars because they may not be willing to experiment as you did. But does that matter for you or your husband? If you and your children are rich enough you can buy anything in this world and acceptance is not excluded.

Marriage is ALL ABOUT making space for each other in your lives. How willing are you to do this? How willing is your partner? What's more important to you, your parents approval, your communities approval, or the person you want to marry? There's no right answer to this last question. You have to know yourself. Marry if that's what you want, but it should be done without fear or hesitation, otherwise its unfair to your partner. To get your mother's approval, let them meet and get to know one another.

Divisions fall quickly when you get to know the human, and not the label. Half of what one thinks one knows about someone persona is probably wrong, if they are basing it on caste alone.

Marriage is not just making space. It is about raising a family. It is about having children. It is basically about genes and their expressions-progressive or regressive. Every one is human here. After that he is either a man or woman, then a Brahmin or a NB, then a white or a black or a brown, then he is rich or poor, good or bad, having character or not, healthy or not, successful or not, intelligent or dull etc., etc., All these are labels and they do matter while marriage is considered. How many of these are verifiable is the question. Your experience from the melting pot of US is not at all relevant to the Indian girl Maash and so please do not expect her to follow your advice.

I'm not going to lie to you here -- without a supportive community, any marriage can become difficult. I'm sure in India some of the difficulty is more pronounced. If you choose to proceed with marriage, you need to find people who support you and surround yourselves with them.

And if you are in US the supportive community does not matter because there this is a storm in a tea cup. In India it is not so. So Maash will have to move cautiously.
 
I read an interesting article on Armenian christians in india in magazine section ' brunch ' of the hindusthan times. . a prosperous community of several thousands spread all

over india has dwindled to less than a hundred in calcutta due to their self imposed isolation from others.

will iyengars from tamilnadu meet the same fate as they try to hold on hard to their caste related identity and refuse resolutely to inter mix

just a thought .
 
Dear Shri Vaagmi,

It is always good for someone in a dilemma to hear from both the sides. You have eloquently brought out your main point. I see two factors at loggerheads here: One is one's individual preference in selection and the other is the preference of others. The latter may be the family, the neighbor and even the society at large. I feel the ideal decision would consider maximizing the long term happiness of the person. This may imply making others also happy. How do you know what to compromise and how much to compromise?

One good way to be foresightful is to fast forward some 30 - 40 years to the future. Visualize objectively whatever could go wrong with either of the options, and what would make you regret more at that time with things going wrong with each of the options? The option which you imagine would give you less cause for regret is very likely the one you will not actually regret later.

The catch with this is you have to do this objectively and not be affected by current emotions and you have to think of all the major factors that can go wrong, based on your current knowledge and the projection of such knowledge.

So I think the girl and the boy are in the best position to decide though others can give broad guidelines based on their experiences and knowledge that would be helpful in approaching the problem.
 
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.... I may add - if the inter caste couple get away from the southern state and go to another metro far away they should have a pretty good life without any pinpricks from anyone

caste related discrimination is relevant only to the state they live in .

if an intercaste couple from tamilnadu are in delhi , no one would really care about the same at least in professional or friend circles .

indian metros have evolved to accept inter caste to a large extent

with the new govt. religion though is becoming an issue
You never miss an opportunity to attack the tambrams living in South India. :fish:

I guess those who can converse in Hindi look down upon other tambrams!! :lol:

P.S: Those who live in the North probably don't care for others and let them live in :peace:!!
 
........... so caste, horoscopes ,family status take a back seat in decision making.......
Caste takes the back seat! Horoscope takes the back seat!

But, family status DOES take the front seat! 'Love at first sight' ellam chummA!! :lie:

Girls see the bank balance and property earned by the prospective groom and most important aspect is

no additional luggage in the family!! Then comes the deiveegak kAdhal! :hug:

Boys go in search of beauty or brain; Girls search for the biggest purse!! :lol:
 
Caste takes the back seat! Horoscope takes the back seat!

But, family status DOES take the front seat! 'Love at first sight' ellam chummA!! :lie:

Girls see the bank balance and property earned by the prospective groom and most important aspect is

no additional luggage in the family!! Then comes the deiveegak kAdhal! :hug:

Boys go in search of beauty or brain; Girls search for the biggest purse!! :lol:
And I see nothing wrong with that !

Just as horoscope matching is done to ascertain longevity, and caste for compatibility, so that the couple may prosper, a big fat purse is also another guarantee that the future is reasonably secured. Of course, in both cases, there might be factors which are extraneous and life may eventually take its own course !
 
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