What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days?

[Yamaka]

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Dear happyhindu:

"I do not think it is a LOL matter. It decided the outcome of modern india.

Also sir, the dharmashastras were the consititution of the yesteryears. It was the law and the judiciary. Each kingdom had constituted laws. Even the present-day indian judiciary has laws based on the dharmashatras. So its not so simple as writing it off as someone's pov. "

As you see, the matter you analyze so in-depth elicits laughter in me, and I believe most of which have no relevance at all in "these days"; please read the title of the Thread:"What makes one tamil brahmin THESE DAYS".

Anyway, I admire your knowledge of the religious history, many of which I dismiss as "pathologies of the past" so very irreverently! lol

I have the following questions for you - you may choose to ignore them also! Perhaps, you have already written about this in your earlier posts here or elsewhere! I didn't read many of them.

0. How did the old Dharmashastras decide the outcome of modern India?

1. Whether the Hindu women should get equal share of the deceased parents' Estate like their brothers?

2. Even after the Hindu Succession Laws of 1956, 2005 as amended many TB parents believe that daughters should not get equal shares of their Estate as their sons do. What's your stand on this?

3. What's your stand on the Religious Fundamentalist Organizations like RSS, VHP and Shiva Sena etc? Will you support them?

4. Do you raise your kids following the Dharmashastras of yesteryears?

5. Do you feel "Brahmin" label is a matter of Religious / Cultural Superiority (albeit hidden somewhere in the deep corners of one's brain) or not? Why so much "fight or argument" over this label?

Thanks.

Regards.

Y

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

I apologize for this late response - I gave more importance to responding to our sister, Srimathi HH Ji. My response is in 'blue'.

Dear Shri KRS,

From what I know of you I think you are a fair person who will never let caste feelings define you. I have not interacted a lot with Shri TKS, however, even though I am very disappointed with the style and tone of his presentation, I have nothing to doubt his sincerity either, and I will readily take his word that "Brahmin" is just an identity for him without any caste supremacy that is usually associated with that term.
Thank you for your kind words.

But my arguments are not about how one or two individuals view this identity, one that is essentially a caste identity, but it is against how that identity is defined theoretically by the orthodoxy, widely practiced by an overwhelming majority of Brahmins, and generally understood by the society.
I have to challenge your notion here - when you say that 'how that identity is defined theoretically by the orthodoxy, widely practiced by an overwhelming majority of Brahmins' how do you know this? By the way, even if this true, is it possible for these folks to reject the past treatment of the so called 'Shudras' and focus only on themselves as 'Brahmins?' I have seen when I was India about 12 years ago for a couple of years, many orthodox Brahmins having normal social intercourse with others. Just because a lot of them are averse to IC marriages should not be held against them, because every community in India practices that.

I won't rehash all the old arguments, all I wish to say is, personal anecdotes only explain how a particular individual feels, it is not an accurate definition of what the identity really is.
Exactly! That is why I would like you to back your assertions with proof.

Would this then mean that those who express an aspiration for a "just" society, can in some way be compared to Pol Pot? Or, perhaps you are trying to point out that should one try to bring about a "just" society, the only logical result will be what Pol Pot did to his people? You bringing in Pol Pot was completely unwarranted. I wish you had not done it, and I wish even more that you would stop standing by it.I have already said, his killings are not what I am talking about. Had I chosen Hitler, you would say something about some 'G' theory! His is the most recent example where he actually succeeded in eliminating a thriving minority culture for the sake of creating a 'just' society.

One does not create a 'just' society by eliminating cultures, as represented by castes in India (for good or bad), But by eliminating casteism and promoting and strengthening a secular society, in terms of the nation's social life. This is not going to be achieved by the vote bank policies, quotas that discriminate against some castes, etc. I have already said a lot about these.

I don't buy this argument that dismantling the caste system is equivalent to destroying the Brahmin heritage. What part of your heritage will die out unless you call yourself a Brahmin and think of yourself as a Brahmin?I have said enough to support my position on this elsewhere. Again, I don't buy your argument that I can not think of myself as this 'secular' brahmin, without offending the other castes. This is just a label on my culture. I am sure many, many Tam Brahms think like I do. But if they do not, so what? They have their right to live anyway they want. One can never legislate against prejudice, but one can pass and ENFORCE laws that are against the actual manifestations of such prejudices in the real world, namely discrimination.

BTW, Brahminism is by definition one designed by the Dharmashahthras, which I know you reject. The Brahmin ideal is to follow the Dharmashasthras. The farther one goes away from Dharmashasthras, the more one rejects Brahminism. Brahmin identity is hopelessly intertwined with Dharmashsthras. The only way one can reject Dharmashasthras is to reject ones caste identity.
I reject this notion. If you go away from the polluting parts of these Shastras (which by the way, are to be pertinent only to the generations that they were written at - I have already said that today's Dharma Shastra is the Indian Constitution and the laws), one would also see that the Brahmins lived solely to support and promote the welfare of the then societies. Please don't pigeon hole the current society with any past society's mores.

So, IMO, you have already rejected Brahminism and the Brahmin identity in your life much more emphatically than many here. What you follow is not Brahminism, and your identity is not that of a Brahmin. You follow a framework or system that you have worked out for yourself, and I respect that. IMO, the reason you are unable to let ago of the caste identity is your reverence for your forefathers and perhaps some nostalgia thrown in. In practice you have rejected the Brahmin identity in toto, you just can't bring yourself to admit it
You are partly correct. Yes, I reject everything today which would deny common humanity and discriminate. I reject everything that does not make sense to me like Purva Mimamsa rituals, but I do not look down on others who believe in it. But, I do not reject the 'Brahmin idealism' of my religion (please read the reference I posted on Swami Vivekananda's lecture elsewhere here, addressed to Srimathi HH Ji). I do not reject my legacy and certainly not my fore fathers, on whose shoulders I stand on today. Yes, I have reverence and nostalgia for tradition that made me who I am today - and because I consider myself a fairly decent human being, I celebrate my culture and identity as contributing to that. I bet, there are a large number of my fellow TamBrahms who identify with my view, rather than yours, which is to identify the wrong doings by some in the past as the total representation of our culture and identity and hence deserving to be thrown out, like a baby with the bath water.


Cheers!

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Sri kunjuppu Ji,

Thank you.

But really, I am simple minded, in the sense that I can only understand very basic and rudimentary logic.

This is perhaps why I am happily ignorant!

Regards,
KRS

KRS, with reservations, i will accept you as a 'simple man' in its most favoured and blessed terminology.

but 'simple minded'?

sir you have got to be kidding!! no way jose !

 

[KRS]

DearSister,

I do not know, whether I deserve all this adulation from you.

I am in no way a perfect human being. I struggle as a human being, like all of us.

I also know that you are not a frivolous person. You do your due diligence always and I love it.

But, your parents' reaction tells me to write the following.

Please do not take it to your heart. Throw it away if you do not believe it.

I have learnt that I can never question the motives of my parents. If I disagree with them, I keep it to myself. But then I know, they are not bad, but it is just that their ideas were formed with yesterday's mores and circumstances.

Regards,
KRS

Thankyou for the note Kunjuppu Ji.

Am aware that KRS ji is a wonderful person at heart, a liberal minded and loving person who does not believe in discrimination of any sort, be it caste or diet or just anything else.

It is unfortunate that in this thread we somehow seem to be seeing the opposite sides of the same coin.

I feel Shri KRS ji and i understand each other instinctively and am sure he knows i have nothing against him personally.

Whatever i have written in this thread is not a mere allegation. I have spent hours pouring over books, the internet, dug out even 'exotic' sources, and have tried to understand the socio-cultural ethos of the southindian landscape from various angles.

My posts were written addressed to a particular person (like KRS ji or TKS), but the content was not meant to be taken personally since the questions are generic and apply to everyone. This being a tamilbrahmin forum i have brought questions pertaining to this specific group.

I have done similar questioning with close relatives of various "castes', the end result being that all of them (including my parents) now take utmost care to avoid certain topics with me completely (to safeguard their own egos i feel).

As regards your query that the terms chettiar or pillai comes with its own heritage, i feel it is a non-sequitur. Both chettiar and pillai are titles, and do not signify 'caste' or 'varna'. It may hurt their egos to know the tribes from which they come. A Chettiar or a Pillai may (falsely) make claims of belonging to a particular 'varna' (that is, vaishya varna); but such a claim would be as false as priests of certain origins claiming to be 'brahmins'.

I do not wish to get into confrontations, i would rather put content on a public blog so that everyone can read up on various tribes and "castes" of southern india. Let each one who wants to take pride in being a "chettiar" or "pillai" or whatever title, read the blog and come to their own conclusions.

So far in this thread i feel some posters have done only mud-slinging by claiming i have been disrespectful to them, etc. It is apparent that those are just excuses to avoid the actual questions.

Having said this i would like to apologise to KRS ji for hurting him because it is apparent that he feels hurt. Sir, i did not mean to hurt you. Am sorry.

Regards.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

TO ALL,
I have a doubt.I do not know dharmasastras of either Sanatana Dharma(to which my forefathers belonged and so I am also presumed to be a follower of SD)or the religious doctrines of any other religious texts.After going through the posts in some threads,I remember some member had earlier pointed out that the Bible which is the religious text of followers of Christian Faith has recorded that Earth is Flat and Jesus Christ will again appear only after all the persons are converted to Christian Faith.Similarly some member had stated that Muslim religion justifies Holy WAR(JIHAD) to establish justice in this world. This religious text also insists the followers to ensure all(who are not now following Islamic faith) to become Muslims.I as an individual member of this world might get affected because of such directives from the religious texts of two prominent religions of this world as I would like to continue to be follower of SD with all inherent defects and deficiencies as pointed out by many Scholarly members in this thread and other various threads.I request members to guide me as to how I can protect myself from the influence of such people,who may be justified in their actions because of a directive in their religious texts
(if it is really so).

 

[happyhindu]

As you see, the matter you analyze so in-depth elicits laughter in me, and I believe most of which have no relevance at all in "these days"; please read the title of the Thread:"What makes one tamil brahmin THESE DAYS".

Dear Yamaka,

You are free to laugh as much as you want. You possibly never imagined that caste is assigned for everyone including Chandalas under the Varna System, which btw holds true from the traditional pov even these days. Its an other matter that the orthodoxy has become a hypocrite to survive these days and will not interfere in the choices of anyone's life.

But do remember, whatever came about THESE DAYS was because of the rise of the "commoners" starting from the late-colonial period. Otherwise brahmins would still be going to courts and deciding your varna. And i do not think you wud be laughing then.

The orthodoxy IMO created loopholes in a democratic constitution, possibly in the hope that someday or the other it can create a rule similar to the varna-system of the dharmashastras. Which to them is possibly the "ideal Hindu" nation. Which is why under the "freedom to manage religious affairs" it tries to propagate casteism (which to me is a shame to hinduism).

On my part i am actually finding the stand of the orthodoxy comical now. I thot whatever is this 'loss of respect' that some elderly people speak of, must be due to the actions of evr and bcoz of the fact that they had to vocate government jobs (a position which they held for less than 100 years btw). However i cud not understand the amount of angst associated with it for a long time.

But now perhaps i understand. The loss of respect in the minds of some elderly people i feel is somewhere related to the fact that they are not in a position to fix varnas of groups under a democracy (its about the loss of social power, which i think must be biggest loss for the orthodoxy). Which is why we have a section of 'nationalists' who are anti-secular and caricature whatever is 'pseudo-secular' to them.

It is also comical that the orthodoxy is now practicing hypocricy itself. The heights was to get a mleccha like Varun married after checking the horoscope of his bride who was supposedly a brahmin. Methinks probably a revered sage must be devastated to see how things are today. He revived RSS but today RSS is getting dominated by "low-castes".

Its also a hypocricy that the orthodoxy practices some amount of hypocricy itself to survive, but still it propagates dharmashastras, does not admit people of all castes to its vedic schools, and will keep casteism alive.

Anyways, methinks someday or the other the rise of the "commoners" is going to result in dismantling the orthodoxy fully. Which is when a true democracy can exist.

Please do not get me wrong when i say all this. Me too in a way wud be designated in a certain way if we were to go by the dharmashastras. Anyways, except a section of 'orthodox brahmins' today, am sure everyone else (including liberal minded folks like KRS ji, Sangom sir, Kunjuppu ji, Nara sir, etc) and yourself too agree with me that dharmashastras have no place in today's hinduism.

Anyway, I admire your knowledge of the religious history, many of which I dismiss as "pathologies of the past" so very irreverently! lol

I have the following questions for you - you may choose to ignore them also! Perhaps, you have already written about this in your earlier posts here or elsewhere! I didn't read many of them.

0. How did the old Dharmashastras decide the outcome of modern India?

Well each of us is free to dismiss anything ('rever' is a big word, i wud not use its opposite so casually). Anyways, all that apart, am certain what am saying makes sense to a lot of people. How the dharmashastras influenced modern india, has been discussed in a lot more detail in the threads "enge brahmanan", and "brits are to blame". The better thing to do is to go thru my past posts which you can access by clicking on 'view all posts' from my profile; and go thru the discussion with another poster called RVR.

1. Whether the Hindu women should get equal share of the deceased parents' Estate like their brothers?

2. Even after the Hindu Succession Laws of 1956, 2005 as amended many TB parents believe that daughters should not get equal shares of their Estate as their sons do. What's your stand on this?

3. What's your stand on the Religious Fundamentalist Organizations like RSS, VHP and Shiva Sena etc? Will you support them?

4. Do you raise your kids following the Dharmashastras of yesteryears?

Please start a new thread on matters of property under hindu laws. And also on "fundamentalist organisations" as you call them.

5. Do you feel "Brahmin" label is a matter of Religious / Cultural Superiority (albeit hidden somewhere in the deep corners of one's brain) or not? Why so much "fight or argument" over this label?

Nope it does not denote any superiority, although some self-entitled 'brahmins' wud like to think so. Clarification: Please note i do not mean this to everyone. Certainly not to those who are living life as genuine brahmins, or to neutral people. On the contrary it is meant as a potshot to those who claim to be brahmin but do everything opposite of what is expected of that position. Especially some certain 'brahmins' and politicians of northindia.

Regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri B.Krishnamurthy Ji,

Sir, in my opinion,let us leave other religions alone.

Let us talk about Hinduism, because that is the religion (okay, call it SD, if you wish), we follow.

Let us not justify our religion on any merits/demerits of any other religion.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear brother Sri kunjuppu Ji,

Thank you.

But really, I am simple minded, in the sense that I can only understand very basic and rudimentary logic.

This is perhaps why I am happily ignorant!

Regards,
KRS

KRS,

you kid me sir.

you toy with me sir.

i get to differ. you are a person of great intellect and, in my opinion, of decisive and deliberate thinking.

no where near forrsest gump, the epitome of a simple person.

you need not take a bow if you dont feel like. but pray do not attempt to insult what remaining intelligence that we manage to save.

youareanythingbutsimpleminded.

this i have to insist.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear BK:

IMHO, if you don't know Dharma Sastra, Bible or Koran and you don't care or believe in any of them (as I am) NOTHING will happen to you and your way of life...

These Holy Books are meant for only the BELIEVERS and to assuage their FEARS... In a sense, the non-believers are FEARLESS people, and nothing will affect them.

I read many of the posts of religious history, classification and ancient practices with lots of humor and laughter - for I believe all this Organized Religions were the handiwork of a bunch of people who wanted to dominate the masses to their personal benefits and gratification.

You just call their bluff, and your are a FREE MAN walking away with freedom with a happy whistle and smile!

Let the believers take care of all the fear mongering.. let them suffer eternally under the clutches of the Organized Religions!

Cheers.

Regards.

Y

 

[subbudu1]

TO ALL,
I have a doubt.I do not know dharmasastras of either Sanatana Dharma(to which my forefathers belonged and so I am also presumed to be a follower of SD)or the religious doctrines of any other religious texts.After going through the posts in some threads,I remember some member had earlier pointed out that the Bible which is the religious text of followers of Christian Faith has recorded that Earth is Flat and Jesus Christ will again appear only after all the persons are converted to Christian Faith.Similarly some member had stated that Muslim religion justifies Holy WAR(JIHAD) to establish justice in this world. This religious text also insists the followers to ensure all(who are not now following Islamic faith) to become Muslims.I as an individual member of this world might get affected because of such directives from the religious texts of two prominent religions of this world as I would like to continue to be follower of SD with all inherent defects and deficiencies as pointed out by many Scholarly members in this thread and other various threads.I request members to guide me as to how I can protect myself from the influence of such people,who may be justified in their actions because of a directive in their religious texts
(if it is really so).

If someone comes to you with a religious agenda, first read what their critiques have to say. Then indulge or entertain any discussion with them. You should be safe.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Happy,
I am not sure there is a "Brahmin Culture" that is unique to just Brahmins alone. There are some aspects that are uniquely Brahmin, and many they share with everyone else. Those that are uniquely Brahmin often include practices that are designed to exclude, e.g. samskaras like upanayanam that are denied to others. Insisting on these exclusionary practices as part of ones identity is short-sighted and counterproductive for the long term well being of the Brahmins themselves.
Cheers!

Pray, whether there is someone who is actually stopping the excluded category from undergoing samskarams like upanayanam? I do not think so.

Regards,

narayan

 

[sangom]

If those who do not want to associate any identity to the term brahmin, why don't they just ignore those who do? If they really believe that the term brahmin is empty what are they really fighting against? I suspect these people believe that the term brahmin affords an air of superiority and this is what they are fighting against? For that they latch on very fervently to the caste practices perpetuated in the past and try to make the brahmins feel belittled or come to their way of thinking. If they think a smear campaign can achieve the objective they are bound to fail. The superiority that is associated with the brahmins is a rightfully earned confidence in self

I am not belittling the achievements of others. But everyone or more generally, every group has some differences. It is best to leave each group as they are and not force all into the same way of thinking. Let each contribute in the best way they can for the overall benefit.

Dear Shri Sravna,

Though our views are generally very different and we tend to disagree on almost all points/topics, in this matter I agree with part of what you have said, viz., "those who do not want to associate any identity to the term brahmin, why don't they just ignore those who do? If they really believe that the term brahmin is empty what are they really fighting against? I suspect these people believe that the term brahmin affords an air of superiority and this is what they are fighting against? For that they latch on very fervently to the caste practices perpetuated in the past and try to make the brahmins feel belittled or come to their way of thinking. If they think a smear campaign can achieve the objective they are bound to fail."

I agree that questions like "who is a tabra?", "what makes one a tabra these days", and doubts of that ilk recur here, itself is proof of the fact that someone or some group somewhere feels the superiority which you allude to in the second half of your post (with which, as usual, I do not agree). Looks like they want to confirm that their pride is justified by endorsements from this forum.

As I have written more than once, telling someone today that "I am a Brahmanan" will evoke only a sneer especially if the underlying pride shows off in the tone, accent, etc. Otherwise it will go unnoticed. Hence there is no reason for anyone of us tabras to feel "pride" in being a Brahman; nor is there any cause for feeling ashamed except when the reservations stare at you face to face (like admission to higher studies, job interviews for govt. jobs, etc.). We have to just accept that label or tag with all its pluses and minuses and be unperturbed.

As to the query "What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days?", the straightforward answer is the entry in the caste column in any valid government document like SSLC, Passport, or any other. There it ends, IMHO.

 

[sangom]

Pray, whether there is someone who is actually stopping the excluded category from undergoing samskarams like upanayanam? I do not think so.

Regards,

narayan

Dear Shri Narayan,

As you probably know too well, the brahmans were the most favoured of all the castes in India. Somehow the caste of a person came to be determined at birth, by the caste of the parents or by the caste of the foster-parents (as in the case of Karna, the Pandava). We, you, I and several others here have the privilege of calling ourselves as Brahmanas. The query with which this thread has been started and similar ones raised in the past in this forum, are IMO, only to assess discretely whether this tag has any additional value, price or goodwill of its own in today's India / world, and, if there is, to feel elated by it.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Narayan,

As you probably know too well, the brahmans were the most favoured of all the castes in India. Somehow the caste of a person came to be determined at birth, by the caste of the parents or by the caste of the foster-parents (as in the case of Karna, the Pandava). We, you, I and several others here have the privilege of calling ourselves as Brahmanas. The query with which this thread has been started and similar ones raised in the past in this forum, are IMO, only to assess discretely whether this tag has any additional value, price or goodwill of its own in today's India / world, and, if there is, to feel elated by it.

Dear Shri Sangom,

It is very difficult to arrive at a consensus between people or groups, when the contexts each considers are farthest away. People like you and some others in this forum probably believe that one doesn't keep being reborn till perfection is attained. Whereas when the concept of soul and karma is posited and described in the way hinduism does a totally different philosophy about life emerges. There are people who believe in the latter.

According to the latter's philosophy each soul has to go through both these stages. They understand the meaning and purpose of life in that very large context. These people are comparitavely less materialistically inclined. They also enjoy relatively more mental peace both I think due to the philosophy they believe in.

Also it is good to have the qualities ascribed to a brahmin in the scriptures to fully benefit from the philosophy of hinduism. Not only a brahmin by birth but also a non-brahmin by birth can feel good about himself if he has such qualities.

 

[happyhindu]

shri sravna,

just a quick question -- do you feel you are a good person because you are a brahmin? what happens if you find your immediate forefathers were vellalars and were 'shudras'? will there be any change in your thinking wrt 'caste' ?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

It is very difficult to arrive at a consensus between people or groups, when the contexts each considers are farthest away. People like you and some others in this forum probably believe that one doesn't keep being reborn till perfection is attained. Whereas when the concept of soul and karma is posited and described in the way hinduism does a totally different philosophy about life emerges. There are people who believe in the latter.

According to the latter's philosophy each soul has to go through both these stages. They understand the meaning and purpose of life in that very large context. These people are comparitavely less materialistically inclined. They also enjoy relatively more mental peace both I think due to the philosophy they believe in.

Also it is good to have the qualities ascribed to a brahmin in the scriptures to fully benefit from the philosophy of hinduism. Not only a brahmin by birth but also a non-brahmin by birth can feel good about himself if he has such qualities.

Dear Shri Sravna,

Knowing your thinking to a limited extent - because many times it appears all jumbled and hence confusing to me, at least - I have some doubts:—

1. What are the qualities of brahmana ascribed to in the Puranas; please give full references so that the reply can be verified by cross-checking. (FYI I am of the view that a brahmana according to the Puranas can be anyone born to brahmana caste.)

2. Will you agree that brahmanas who come out as very "materialistically inclined" and do not have the qualities ascribed to a brahmin in the Puranas can continue to claim that he is a brahman and the world should give him the respect due to a brahmana?

3. Contrarily, if a "non-brahmin by birth" possesses the qualities prescribed for brahmana by the puranas and "can feel good about himself if he has such qualities" (as per your post), do you think that such a non-brahmin can go one step further and claim the respect of society due to a "brahmana by both birth and attributes"?

 

[tks]

Dear BK:

IMHO, if you don't know Dharma Sastra, Bible or Koran and you don't care or believe in any of them (as I am) NOTHING will happen to you and your way of life...

These Holy Books are meant for only the BELIEVERS and to assuage their FEARS... In a sense, the non-believers are FEARLESS people, and nothing will affect them.

I read many of the posts of religious history, classification and ancient practices with lots of humor and laughter - for I believe all this Organized Religions were the handiwork of a bunch of people who wanted to dominate the masses to their personal benefits and gratification.

You just call their bluff, and your are a FREE MAN walking away with freedom with a happy whistle and smile!

Let the believers take care of all the fear mongering.. let them suffer eternally under the clutches of the Organized Religions!

Cheers.

Regards.

Y

“TO ALL,
I have a doubt.I do not know dharmasastras of either Sanatana Dharma(to which my forefathers belonged and so I am also presumed to be a follower of SD)or the religious doctrines of any other religious texts.After going through the posts in some threads,I remember some member had earlier pointed out that the Bible which is the religious text of followers of Christian Faith has recorded that Earth is Flat and Jesus Christ will again appear only after all the persons are converted to Christian Faith.Similarly some member had stated that Muslim religion justifies Holy WAR(JIHAD) to establish justice in this world. This religious text also insists the followers to ensure all(who are not now following Islamic faith) to become Muslims.I as an individual member of this world might get affected because of such directives from the religious texts of two prominent religions of this world as I would like to continue to be follower of SD with all inherent defects and deficiencies as pointed out by many Scholarly members in this thread and other various threads.I request members to guide me as to how I can protect myself from the influence of such people,who may be justified in their actions because of a directive in their religious texts
(if it is really so).”

BK –ji : I just wanted to get your quote here first . I tend to agree with some of the suggestions of Yamaka-ji. However I have a different take on what needs to be done in addition. I also agree with KRS-ji that we need to be talking about Hinduism without putting anyone down.
I sense a deeper question in what you are asking that is relevant to the context of the discussions here though not relevant in my view to the original question that started this thread. That has to do with organized religious conversion that is taking place in India and that the people who do this are justified since that edict is granted by their very religion. Hindus with the heritage of caste based shame of the past (and perhaps present) are easily vulnerable to such conversions especially when these organized religions have enormous power & wealth and a strategy. It is unclear if there is a simple definition to what a Hindu is and we have a vulnerability in my view in the sense that we are ‘blessed’ with a few too many educated and immature pseudo-intellectuals who are ready to dole out their ‘Kai sarakku’ (wish I could type the Tamil fonts here for the item in the quote).

We could say – “what is wrong if there are mass conversions”? When a religion turns out to be nothing more than a set of unverifiable beliefs with built in contradictions, competing religious beliefs create conditions for ongoing wars with unstoppable violence. Also anytime a person tries to ‘convert’ others to their belief system, it amounts to violence since in order to convert anyone you have to destroy their belief system and pride in their heritage. Also whether attempts at conversion is done at an individual level or at an organized level there is a basic intolerance at play which goes like this – “I *believe* this based on such and such analysis, you are wrong for what you stand for, you have to change in order for me to feel fine and I am superior because I represent progressive thinking”. I tend to think what is generally called Atheism is a religion too in this context.

How do we protect ourselves from becoming victim to a more violent future? I have generic suggestions and not just directed at you, BK-ji since you may be older and wiser than me !

First, emphasize learning and teaching universal principles applicable to all beings embodied in Vedas (what), Gita (how, application) and Brahma Sutras (analysis). This will require enormous effort and finding a proper teacher is a challenge. Don’t waste time with pseudo-intellectuals that you may come along the way since they can detract one from learning and teaching. Hopefully you will develop viveka – ability to distinguish who is a teacher and who is pretending to be wise. Only with proper knowledge one can help others in my view.

Second, involve yourself in projects that uplift everyone. We need to instill a sense of pride in what people are already doing and eliminate birth based pride or lack of pride. By pride I mean validation and the idea is not to put anyone else down. There are organizations such as ‘All India Movement for Seva” that goes to rural places, work for the education of young children by building Chatralayas near government schools so that children can achieve education for skills and also get education for maturity. I know a 90 year old man who looks like 60 and every year he goes to different parts of Karnataka to teach students of these Chatralayas for 6 months in a year. He lives in USA and is very affluent (and yes he is a Tamil Brahmin by the definition I have provided in my other posts).

Third, we need to find a way to fight corruption which has become a ‘way of life’ for Indians. When someone tells me Hinduism is a ‘way of life’ I cannot but think of rampant corruption that is allowing very rich to become even more rich while India is being categorized in 2006 UN report as having acquired the unique distinction of joining poorest of the poor nations in terms of how many people go hungry every night. India has excelled amongst nations of the world in the corruption index.

If some of us do some of the above things we will be inoculated against the issues you raised in your post, IMHO.

Regards
TKS

 

[happyhindu]

Pray, whether there is someone who is actually stopping the excluded category from undergoing samskarams like upanayanam? I do not think so.

Regards,

narayan

Shri Narayan,

Possibly people are not interested in learning rituals for a namesake identity. People involved in 'Sanskritisation' in the past, but in today's hi-tech world possibly they have other things or more interesting things to do. Which is probably why there is lack of interest in undergoing samskaras.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

To All,
What I wrote in my previous post was just to highlight and draw attention of all followers of SD not to get involved in hairsplitting arguments with their so called knowledge and intelligence about various aspects of SD,but to foster unity among followers of SD,so that any onslaught on followers of SD from outside(which may be inevitable given different Faiths in this world) can be met with Success.I have no intention of hurting the sentiments of anyone or show disrespect to anyone.I apologise if anyone is hurt.
I had visited Mummidivaram Balayogi,an illiterate person from S/C community in the years 1970 to 1973 when I was staying in Rajahmundry.After going through the various posts in this thread,a doubt arose in my mind as to why being born to Brahmin parents I was not attracted to Spiritual advancement in my younger days,while an illiterate young S/C boy was attracted towards spirituality in his young age and he was doing Tapas.I concluded(may be wrong)that Mummidivaram Balayogi,though born in a S/C family can be
considered as a true Brahmin.
I googled to see more details about him,but could not.However,I could read Spiritual experience of two other great Souls,a gentleman from Guntur who had written an article
"BE YOUR MASTER" and another gentlemen a college lecturer from Nellore(Devotee of Shirdi SAi BABA) about his spiritual experience.

 

[Nara]

Pray, whether there is someone who is actually stopping the excluded category from undergoing samskarams like upanayanam? I do not think so.

Dear Shri Narayan,

Do you think if one of NB birth wishes to get upanayanam done and be accepted as a Brahmin, there would be no obstacles? FYI, one who is of NB birth cannot even sit next to a B and have lunch in any of the Brahminical Matams.

Leaving that aside, my point was not about NBs taking up Brahmin samskaras at all. What I was referring to was Brahmins adopting samskaras that make them feel different, and special, compared to others. My preference is, in case someone is very interested in preserving the Brahmin identity, which is nothing but a caste identity, is to abandon the practices that separate them from others in our community, a true community of respectful human beings, and retain ones that are purely benign.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

Knowing your thinking to a limited extent - because many times it appears all jumbled and hence confusing to me, at least - I have some doubts:—

1. What are the qualities of brahmana ascribed to in the Puranas; please give full references so that the reply can be verified by cross-checking. (FYI I am of the view that a brahmana according to the Puranas can be anyone born to brahmana caste.)

2. Will you agree that brahmanas who come out as very "materialistically inclined" and do not have the qualities ascribed to a brahmin in the Puranas can continue to claim that he is a brahman and the world should give him the respect due to a brahmana?

3. Contrarily, if a "non-brahmin by birth" possesses the qualities prescribed for brahmana by the puranas and "can feel good about himself if he has such qualities" (as per your post), do you think that such a non-brahmin can go one step further and claim the respect of society due to a "brahmana by both birth and attributes"?

Dear Shri Sangom,

My response to all your questions is this. The claassification in hinduism is sheerly based on extent of spirituality in a person. Brahmin being the highest in that classification is therefore one whose spirituality is advanced or in other words he is anti-materialistic. In my interpretation anyone if he is so inclined has the qualities of a brahmin. Why should people make such a fuss over this classification? The materilists want to enjoy all comforts, practice pragmatism to the core but still become peeved when a certain group of people are accorded a high status based on diametrically opposite set of attributes to theirs? If they do not value spiritualism, let it be so but why take to task those who are respected for their spirituality? Why become so obsessed with them? On the contrary those who are real brahmins are comfortable in their philosophy of life and they are only genuinely concerned for the future of the world, if at all anything, because of the ways of the materialistic people.

Therefore the issue I am talking about is bigger than brahmins and non-brahmins. It is about qualities that are conducive for harmony and peace in society and qualities that are deterimental to it. That is the reason why brahmins were given such an exalted status because the ultimate good of the society depends on the existence of people who possess such qualities. I think it is good for all if we try to view this debate with that perspective in mind.

 

[Nara]

Dear sravna,

I am a little curious, if you would be so kind, would you please tell me what your view is on the Mundal commission based reservation system practiced in India?

best regards ....

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Krishnamurthy Sir,

There used to be a prolific writer named Gora. This is what he wrote about Balayogi whom you have mentioned in the post above: The Need of Atheism

Dear Nara Sir,

One brahmin priest (who used to be 'aggarwal' in his purvasharama) associated with arya samaj said that even 20 years back public was showing some genuine interest in learning practices. But in the past decade public is more interested in going to sadhus and babas for solutions to their material and familial problems. Some are doing meditation for peace of mind but other than that people are not showing interest in the religion or in samskaras. Somehow the public sentiment seems to be veering more and more towards material fulfilment in a competitive world; and only after a certain age (usually elderly people) are showing genuine interest in religion.

Regards.

 

[sravna]

Dear sravna,

I am a little curious, if you would be so kind, would you please tell me what your view is on the Mundal commission based reservation system practiced in India?

best regards ....

Dear Shri Nara,

I believe that the force of nature is strong enough to overcome inequities in nurture. Therefore I think all one needs to do is to promote an egalitarian environment with respect to opportunities. I am also not against government supporting the education of financially deprived people of the backward castes and also in motivating them in getting well educated.

But reservations are not the right way of compensation for the past inequities and definitely not in the interest of the nation.

 

[subbudu1]

If they do not value spiritualism, let it be so but why take to task those who are respected for their spirituality?

I have long felt the need to question the so called special spirituality of the caste-brahmins.

Scan through the lifestyle of any orthodox caste-brahmin. You will not find any less materialism than the average Indian society. The same desire for saving money, building home, making use of good jobs or monetary benefits is there. Further the same problems, such as dowry existed until western education. Then there are the same dishum-dishum with brothers. The same kind of arguments with the parents.Whatever enlightened thinking seems to be there, is largely because of an exposure to western education.

If doing more puja and rituals is more spirituality then you are correct. But I dont see a point in comparison because so called non brahmins have not been taught these rituals and pujas. But still so many are talking about god and worshiping him sincerely. Some compose even poems in tamil, malayalam, marathi etc. We also have the tamil veda which has probably come from a non brahmin heritage. Yet if something can be called a veda the composer must be a brahmin?

There may have been more saints in this community in the past. But seriously so called non brahmins many of them are busy earning livelihood for their families. The enlightened ones among them use their free time to go deep into religion or atleast question practices. That is also being a devotee of god, is my view. There is a poem written by Rabindranath Tagore, where he asks the caste-brahmin wearing beads, to come out and start tilling the soil.

There is nothing specially spiritual about caste-brahmins, atleast that is true today.

I am personally not disputing the need for the term of a brahmin in our religion. I am not such an expert to analyze the flaws of such an idealistic concept. Anyway it is fairly clear that regular caste-brahmins just like others , no where strive for this ideal not even the orthodox pandit.

I only feel that a modern caste-brahmin does not have any special nature. If he can call himself a brahmin and aspire for some ideals then everyone else can do the same. But the question that we all must ask within our hearts, is how much real desire we have to live as a brahmin. Apart from a little activity and lots of show, do we really strive hard for such an ideal.

I dont blame us. We are working hard , we have built families. We have done some justification for some job. After retirement people have their worries their anxiety etc. It is not practical to show a single minded aspiration to an idealistic goal like being brahmin, when there are pending problems in the society. Only a person who leaves the family and goes to a jungle can do that.

Some here who stick to the context, say that all that they know is brahmin is a jathi and by virtue of being the child of somebody they belong to that jathi. Atleast that is good if truth is spoken . I have my doubts on how many are so innocent . I am not sure how many really dont care for any other meaning of the word brahmin. But I leave it to the individual.