Shri tks,
Whether you really mocked me or not, only you know. All I can do is go by the words written. Your imaginary conversation did not address any of my points, it only mocked me. Let me cite two of those points.
- Why do Brahmins spend so much time analyzing what it means to be a Brahmin, the so called Shudras don't?
- The notion that Varna is guna-based and there is a guna-based Brahmin and a guna-based Shudra is borne out of Brahmin-centric thinking that triggers supremacist feelings, knowingly or unknowingly. This is certainly viewed as odious by almost all NBs.
Now, you can try to answer these questions, or simply ignore them. Instead, you make up an imaginary dialog and paint my arguments as unreasoned, and I as a person as adamant, all the while not directly even attempting to address the points I had raised, and then you say this:
So, you admit your intent is to exaggerate, which to you is not caricaturing, and have a mock dialog in which you make up a person called Nara and mock that Nara, and if I take it as a personal attack, then it is my fault? Nice!!!
BTW, humor that puts others down is plain and simple mean.
Sir, IMO, an apology that starts with an "if" is an insult disguised as apology.
TKS, somebody pointing out "they view this as an identity not supremacy" is just an assertion, not an answer. Take any academic text, journal article, studies and what not on caste system, discrimination and oppression, you will see a discussion of Brahminism. So simply asserting it is only an identity won't do.
All the benign cultural aspects like cuisine, music, art, can be preserved without hanging on to this so called Brahmin identity, an identity which conjures up centuries of oppression among millions of NBs and Dalits, go ask any of them if you don't believe me. Even though the Dalits of TN suffer physical violence only from NBs not Bs, they oppose the idea of Brahminism foremost, why is that? To answer such questions with, "we view this as just identity" is woefully inadequate to say the least.
Why cling to an identity that perpetuates this kind of negative image?
IMO, it is the solemn duty of educated and modern Brahmins, examples of whom abound here, to show the light to other Brahmins who are stuck in superstition and caste identity. This is what I consider looking out for the true welfare of our brothers and sisters who think of themselves as Brahmins. Mocking me with exaggerated and imaginary dialog may make you feel good, but it is certainly not good for ordinary Brahmins for whom Brahmin identity is nothing more than a caste-identity.
Cheers!
Nara –ji :
My last attempt at responding to you here:
1. I think your messages (“Brahmin term denotes vile things*’) etc. at a forum whose name is ‘Tamil Brahmins” and your approach (constant drum beat of same vitriolic messages without appearing to listen) needed an appropriate and a measured response. I thought that I wanted to take on your issues since your approach was, in my view, shutting down others from participating. You are not alone in your message and approach and I wanted to take an opportunity to communicate to others who follow your school of thought. I responded by portraying an absurd play on the word ‘Justice’ instead of the word ‘Brahmin’ which causes you to seemingly not listen. The intent was to be strong in the response but it was directed to your words and your approach but not YOU as a person. I used the name ‘nara 1’ and as stated it was not you but someone like you. I could have used a name DEF. However in seeing the responses I have sensed a game at play here which goes as follows: Say vitriolic things, and when responded to those messages cry foul “playing victim” – It is like your child calling you “Appa – He called me names” .. Just substitute Moderator for Appa ! Once again let me repeat my response was to your messages and your approach and not on you as a person. A principle of Dale Carnegie to reach someone who is seemingly adamant is to ‘dramatize’ – which is like exaggeration.
2. Let me answer your specific question posed to me though I know you have no interest in any answers except to continue your approach and agenda in a legal manner here. Regardless let me interpret that you have noble intent and answer them. You may not like my answers. First question was: Why do Brahmins spend so much time analyzing what it means to be a Brahmin, the so called Shudras don't?
a. Let me answer the reason you may be asking me this. You think I have come here and started a thread on “what people think of themselves when they call themselves as Tamil Brahmins” because I am some proud Brahmin who is deserving of your vitriolic messages! I have lived in USA for most of my life except teen years in Delhi. Outside India we are all Indians often bunched with Pakistanis and other nationals. The thought of someone being a Brahmin or Non-Brahmin has not entered in any conversation that I have been here . I don’t have immediate relatives in India and my friends from college days (IIT ) come from all walks of life. Many may be Non-Brahmins if I were to ask around. All the people I consider as friends are broad minded people and there has been no focus of this Brahminism. I learnt some of the vedic teachings from a Non-Brahmin (an American sannyasi, a Sanskrit scholar who we do Namaskaram regularly) along with other people mostly of Indian origin. I don’t know who is a Brahmin or who considers themselves a Brahmin. It is a question that never came up. So I have not come across in my life anyone who is obsessed about their background. There are people all around the world who are curious about their ancestry and it is a big business. I have attended vedic style marriages involving Indians and non-Indians, Indians and Indians etc. I consider my Gothra as my identity , the culture and values taught by my parents and teachers as my identity. I only understand the expectations of the word Brahmin from the strict Sanskrit meaning as it appears in vedic studies. When I discovered this forum accidentally I was curious what people think , hence my question to the forum members.
b. I have to answer your question now by a set of questions.
i. You and perhaps one or two in this forum are the first set of people I have run into that seem to me to be totally obsessed with this ‘brahmin’ term. Why are you seemingly obsessed? If you can answer that you may be able to answer why the people you seem to have come across in your life are obsessed .
ii. After some people tell you that it is an identity for some of us even if it does not fit your understanding based on any number of references why don’t you simply show respect to their sense of who they are and take your vitriolic messages elsewhere in another thread? To me such an approach comes across as intolerance of others. You want others to change their sense of identity of the term ‘Brahmin’ because you find the meaning of the term obnoxious. It is one thing if you don’t want to call you by a particular way but it is another thing for you to want others to change their basic identity so your definitions are intact though they declare repeatedly that those definitions are not what they go by. That comes across as intolerant and insensitive. Even if you don’t agree with this characterization why do you exhibit this behavior since that is how it comes across to others? Again if you answer this you may have your answer to your original question.
iii. When you asked this question it has the insinuation that people who visit this forum calling themselves Tamil Brahmin must be obsessed. That is pre-judging and therefore could be understood as Prejudice. Even if you don’t agree with this characterization why do you exhibit this behavior since that is how it comes across to others? Again if you answer this you may have your answer to your question.
c. Any act that is born out ignorance cannot be solved by labeling them. That is why in our vedic vision we do not have the notion of evil. We have only knowledge and ignorance. The term ignorance is used in this context to achieving that knowledge by which every other knowledge is known. Your approach, words are born out of ignorance in this context and it can never help resolve the society/ caste issues born out of ignorance and Avidhya as well.
d. If you truly want to address this issue why not find an approach that uplifts everyone, including the Brahmins that you so loathe? There are few organizations I know that are doing great work to uplift everyone in India – most are non-brahmins I am sure. Right now corruption as a way of life is killing India in my view and it is not caste based. Anyone that can take that on will be doing immense service in achieving social justice. There are human trafficking issues rampant in parts of India. These are far more significant issues to tackle by mature people (I am not using the word ‘educated’ on purpose). I believe just like you have an approach that if economic issues caused by corruption and crime are addressed thereby uplifting everyone we will not have the Brahmin issues.
e. No one goes around saying they are Brahmin in my experience. If our behavior is one of acceptance then I have seen NB friends have had no problem attending the upanayanam function of my son or blessing him when he does Namasaram. I do agree with your view that “IMO, it is the solemn duty of educated and modern Brahmins, examples of whom abound here, to show the light to other Brahmins who are stuck in superstition and caste identity.” But make sure the ‘Brahmin’ you run into is superstitious and stands for all the vile things you define. If so I will be happy to take them on too. My approach is that there are really no Brahmins or for that matter any other caste anymore. However I am ready to accept an identity name so long the person does not use that to hurt anyone. I respect no education but mature behavior, I respect those that care about others and do not put anyone down.
f. I started this thread with two phrases – are you striving to know veda as a Shabda Pramana, and do you know what it means to live a life where Dharma is a Purushartha ..To answer this will take 10 to 15 years of intense practice and study in my humble opinion (and one does not have to know Sanskrit to make initial attempt). My respect goes to anyone – Brahmin or NB - that tries to understand and live these values.
g. Obsession of anyone or anything is a weakness, it is not worth dwelling on. Rather it is better to work to help people improve their life economically and in education.
3. “The notion that Varna is guna-based and there is a guna-based Brahmin and a guna-based Shudra is borne out of Brahmin-centric thinking that triggers supremacist feelings, knowingly or unknowingly. This is certainly viewed as odious by almost all NBs”
This is your second question. First I do not know Manu or Varna Shatra, have no interest in that, do not like how it evolved over the years. I dont like the net result of the impact it had on progress of our society. Second I was trying to tell you the definition and meaning of the term as it appears in Gita which defines the meaning relating to Guna (Satvic, Rajasic etc) . The Vedic texts and teachings are agnostic to how a society is organized. While even Gandhi wrote that caste system was not born out of narrow minded thinking it did have a terrible effect in our society due to ignorant people that were bestowed the role they were unworthy of and abused it. We need to educate the NB that hatred for the past (and even present in some places) cannot solve anything. We need to get Brahmins who hold the identity as to what the term actually means uplifting them from ignorance. There are mature people of all walks of life involved in projects that instill pride in the cultural outputs (e.g., Aim For Seva) and activities of underprivileged that help improve the economic conditions and restore pride in their own identity.
I am offering ‘solutions and approaches’ to your question rather than answer what some ancient texts said and how they were interpreted. Those texts and Shastras are not Vedic texts. I believe in inclusion and make the term Brahmin a benign term and help support organizations that are trying to uplift everyone. I would want to appeal to a noble intent of everyone in supporting approaches that deal with society issues. I am not expecting you to agree with my approach but only request that you take your messages to appropriate forums where the discussion is about history and its impact today etc.
You have a choice to approach the message of this post with dignity and maturity befitting your education (since someone called you Professor) . If you do and have questions or challenges I will respond. If you or your supporters want to involve a moderator to get this post removed so be it. That is the other approach. Regardless I do not think less of you even if I disagree with your messages very strongly.
Peace & Cheers,
TKS
