What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days?

[subbudu1]

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Sowbagyavathy Happy Hindu, Greetings.



I understand, the points in post #117 were directed to Sri.TKS. But there are people who have no option, but have to be known by the tag 'brahmin', officially. For example, my children would be automatically called 'brahmin' against the caste column in any official documents. To make the matters worst, in the past, if the caste column was not filled up, the application was not deemed valid.

The flip side of your criticism is, you are shooting at some people who are trapped in a barrel. It is quite possible, you may not be too concerned about the 'collateral damages'. You may bring forward many historical proofs; but, the fact remains, there are people who do not really have either superiority or inferiority complexes with the name of a caste, any caste. They may just see it just as an address in the social set-up and no more. Unfortunately, your detailed post did not address such neutral persons.

Your arguments are very nice; do you have a suggestion to make, please? Most if not all the neutral persons would agree with you; so, what is your alternative suggestion, please? What should they call themselves, which would be accepted officially, please? If you have a solution, then kindly write that too, please. Thank you. ( I am making this request sincerely. It is one thing to show the ills of the social frame work; without solutions, such criticism would sound empty. In my personal case, I did not want my children to go through caste system; I moved out of India. It will not be possible for everybody. So, what is the solution acceptable to to other castes too?).

Cheers!

My humble opinion - There is no need of a solution. Brahmins will continue to intermarry so much that they will give up this name after some x generation. Those who are still in the ritual mode working as priests- I dont know their destiny. May be they will also intermarry. But they and their descendants might retain that title. However even this I am not sure. Reason is that we are not living 15 th century when women adopted into boy's family. If a gounder lady marries a brahmin boy, she will want her own identity to be there after marriage. May be at this stage HH dream will be realized. Those who work as priests whatever may be their origin may call themselves as B. I dont know. Possibly some serious people will continue to marry within their caste and function as priests. They will certainly be called brahmins. Who knows?

But HH and some sociologists like KI think that brahmins will manage caste into eternity and there will be riots and wars. I dont see that happening. Children of most rigid Bs continue to intermarry. I know of a B who will not let his children marry anyone other than a vadama. This man's child rebelled and asked to be married to a B of another state. Finally because she was a B he agreed. That girl's sister married a NB. This man's daughter married an NB as well much against this man's wishes. He still has not given up hope on his son and DIL. But how is it possible now that the next generation has got different kinds of relatives, that too that they are citizens of a western country now?

Best advice for any B to be reasonable to kids. Give some extra bandwidth be some extra broadminded . When the kids see more options from parents, they may consult them. Otherwise forget consultation also.

HH need not worry. So much of abuse of brahmin term was in place. Nature finds means of autocorrection. I think time is due now.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

I really do not understand many arguments here.

I think that it stems from a confusion - confusion to separate a culture of people and any alleged and real wrong doings of some folks in the past, being looked back from the vantage point of today's mores and values.

Past can only be learnt from - it can never be obliterated. As I have said countless times here, I totally reject the notion that MY FOREFATHERS participated knowingly all the 'oppression' and wrong deeds alleged here.

Dharma Shastras are odious and very importantly, we have a Dharma Shastra called the Indian Constitution, and her criminal and civil laws.

Whoever that is insisting that the Hindu Dharma Shastras are the valid laws to govern today's society, at best must know that they are no better than those who are intent on imposing Sharia laws on a secular country and at worst should be admitted to an asylum to have their head examined.

When I say, I am a 'Tamil Brahmin', it is just a fact - I was born in to a culture and identity of my parents and grand parents who considered themselves 'that'. Both of my grandparents and my father never were casteists. They had numerous friends from all castes as well as from other religions - they did not see others as any inferior and their dining rooms were always open to these folks. But, like their friends who labeled themselves with their identities (Mudaliar, Chettiar, Anglo Indian, Syrian Christian, Catholic, Moplah Muslim, Sufi Muslim etc.) and were proud of them, so I am with my identity.

I have never discriminated against anyone in my life on the basis of race/religion/skin color or economic conditions. So was my dad and my grand parents. Yet, when I graduated from college in free India, I was discriminated against just because I was labeled 'Brahmin'. I was not alone. Others were too.

Yes, I only welcome the upliftment of everyone in the Indian society to achieve their potential. But, in the process, please do not group me as a person who is a casteist, because in the past, some belonging to my ancestry abused a system that started with idealism.

So, if they do it today, apply today's Dharma Shastra against them. Put them in jail. Even if you do not do it, please be aware that the modern life represented by the industrial economy, nuclearization of the family and rapid technological advancements would take care of that. How can casteism survive in a egalitarian and a merit oriented society? It can not.

I gave an example of Pol Pot and his effort to create a 'just' society on theoretical basis by stamping out all 'elitist' cultures in his country. Millions were killed, but perhaps more importantly, the country lost cultures that fueled her entrepreneurship. Especially the Chinese culture. When ever I cited this in the past, Professor Nara Ji took offence. But my point in citing this is not about the killings (which by the way are conveniently dismissed by those, who constantly cite the past atrocities committed by theist societies of the past), but every past culture has a role to play today. No past culture is 100% bad or 100% good, if one looks at them with today's mores and values. Yet, we are here today, with today's knowledge, because of our forefathers' lives. No Renaissance without the dark ages.

Yes, I agree that our religion's concept of castes is not valid today. But, outside of this system, I consider my religion as one of the most beautiful for the humanity to hand it's hats on. With India's freedom, casteism is illegal. This is enough for me to move on, secure in my thoughts that over time, caste will go away.

But, in the mean time, let me try to understand who I am, without all this badgering and lectures from others that if I call myself a Tamil Brahmin, that is somehow offensive to others. It is not a caste to me, but an identity of myself. Yes, I am a born 'Tamil Brahmin', but Iam not a 'Brahmin' in the classical sense. I do not do anything a true classical 'Brahmin' was required to do. In this sense I look at others only as who they are as human beings. I do not understand this 'Guna' stuff as my life experience has taught me otherwise. There are sattvic folks everywhere. There are scoundrels everywhere.

But, please do not destroy my heritage based on inequities from the past as seen from today's mores and values. Unlike those of you who call yourselves agnostic and rationalists, I just can not label my forefathers as the oppressors and heartless. If you are intent on doing so, please go ahead. But, please, leave our heritage alone. "Brahminism' is not a dark force. Within the culture of India and Hinduism, this word in the past only mostly represented the good.

There, I have said it.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Mr. Krishnamurthy,

I wrote that not Krishnamurthy sir.

Proof please.

The case of Kayasthas in North India and Vellalars and Komatis in South India are 2 examples. The Calcutta High Court ruled that Kayasthas (of Bengal) are Shudras. The Allahabad High Court returned Kayasthas (of UP) as Brahmins and Patna High Court ruled that Kayasthas (of Bihar areas) are Kshatriyas. Description of these court cases are available in various books. The court cases of Komatis is described here. The case of the Vellalas has been described here. This is just a small sample. The Nagarathars also came up with their 'caste' duly faked in the colonial period to claim a Vaishya position for themselves. I will be blogging on each and every 'caste' so please wait for that.

These are all stories spun by interested science students. Where is the proof that this is the truth?

Alright. For starters, there is the case of the Bagathas, a Scheduled Caste associated with farming. In the colonial period, some of them were given a supervisory role to supervise their own farmer tribesmen. These supervisor farmers were also given the role of dividing land amongst farmers of various tribes for cultivation. The Bagath 'caste' people distributed more land amongst their own tribesmen, and around the time when the hold of the british lessened on them, these tribesmen became owners of the land. In one particular area all land owners were Bagaths. Since they became land-owners they felt they should only own the land and not cultivate it themselves.

So the Bhagaths hired farmers from other 'castes' to do the farming. They established contact with Jangam and Sathani (SSV) priests to elevate them into "Kshatriyas" with the sacred thread. In this way a particular community took to claiming that they are 'Vedic Kshatriyas'. Some such key details are available in the book Journal of Social Research, Vol 15 published by the Council of Social and Cultural research.

Going back in time, evidence is available in the form of epigraphies / inscriptional evidence. I shall write about stories spun by tribal warriors and their priests such as koil-boyas and kapalika tantrics in the Vijayanagar period, since both sides gained from each other by elevating each other to the state of 'vedic brahmins' and 'vedic kshatriyas'. Since the content is very-very large, i shall blog on it taking care not to name the current communities.

1)It is not designation that they are bothered about. It is identity in a society where every one else is known by a certain identity like mudali, naidu,nadar etc etc.,
2)It is not by choice that they take the identity brahmin.It is the only identity available to you in a society in which every one is proud of his caste identity.

1. Mudali and Naidu are titles, not castes. Anyone from any tribe or any caste could become a Mudali or a Nayaka or Thakur. It merely means some ancestor of theirs became a landowner, or that they acquired the title by hook or crook in recent times. It does not denote their caste.
2. It is baseless to claim that folks do not 'take the identity brahmin' by choice. As regards pride in identity, please let me put out all the content i have accumulated. Then everyone who claims to be brahmins, kshatriyas, vaishyas, can ponder over whether or not they want external factors such as "caste" to give them pride or self-esteem.

If proof is needed for my two statements above (Iknow it will be demanded because I have demanded proof above) the proof is readily available in the selection of candidates for the recently concluded elections to Tamilnadu Legislative Assembly. Every candidate without exception was belonging to the majority community in that constituency from which he contested.

Yes ofcourse, we owe the current caste-based politics to "pride" in caste that has got into the bone marrow of people, thanks to the caste ethos that was helped along by the orthodoxy in the colonial period. So today we have to tolerate gundas, rouges and cheats like pawar, raja, yadav, katara, paswan, etc, etc who get elected in the name of caste and loot and sell the country. People like me can only hope that more chopters take away people like ys.

If this is what is said in Dharmashastras what is the complaint here. It appears we need Dharmashastras to criticise Dharmashastras!

This was written by the rishi atreya. Not by Manu and his like. Thankgod there was one good man like Atreya in the whole lot of 'brahmins' of dharmashastras.

Mr TKS, you should have completed what you came to say. Out of your concern for decorum you did not perhaps say that "......It is a respectful thing to do. You should know that even if you do not accept it, the someone will ignore you and move. If you were to insist, stop him and demand that he submits that he is not a brahmin he would probably say "my foot" or some such horrible thing and moved ahead".(SM, you can sure expect a sos from HH on this)

I wrote that, not TKS. Now take these 2 situations where i wud have escaped the predicament of having to accept TKS as a brahmin.

I) One is a situation where i wud be a nayak 'princess' of some stupid tribal origin where the men were drunkards and abused / exchanged women. Nevertheless being a part of the 'statehood' which my ilk created, we wud have had 'power' in our hands. In such case my ilk wud have employed tantrics and tribal priests and made them a part of the "statehood" elevating them to the state of "brahmins". We wud have done so because of mutual gain. The tribal priests get to become 'brahmins', rajpurohits, etc. And we gained by getting elaborate ceremonies created and conducted for ourselves.

And ofcourse our 'brahmins' will create elaborate geneologies connecting us to Yayati, Turvasa, or if we so fancied then to Rama Himself so that our offsprings can take "pride" in their newly acquired gotras, and lineage. After 350 years, my lot will insist that they were 'vedic kshatriyas' and your lot will insist that they are "vedic brahmins". And both of us will insist that it is a "respectable thing for others" to accept ourselves as such.

2) Another situation where i wud have escaped the predicament wud be if i were a member of a trade guild. Now this is the most powerful position. Especially if i belonged to a guild like Nakara guild (currently called Nagarathars), or to Nanadeshi / Ayyavole guild (members of which are currently spread out amongst Gavaras, Balijas and Komatis). If such a trade guild did not lend money, the king / warriors could not even commision temple building. Nor wud their armoury be supplied with arms and weapons. So the tribal men or so-called 'warriors' who cleared forest tracts, or acquired large tracts of land thru tribal fights, could forget their dreams of transforming their land into a Kingdom or State.

But as a trader, i would have support the kings because then i get to be elevated as a 'Vedic Vaishya' who gets to have a 'gotra' or 'kootam' based on temples (for social "pride" of course). So the nexus of bania-kshatriya-brahmana wud have worked well for all 3 of us.

Well, so Raju, i have conveyed the situation well i think. If i did not belong to the bunch of petty tribal fighters (who still abound as gundas today) or to a trade guild, it is quite possible that as a poor farmer (now designated as a 'shudra') under the vijayanagar rayas, i wud have had to face the situation of being forced to accept TKS as a 'brahmin'.

All of them want to be Indians also by birth. Any objections?

Viola, eureka, what a gem of a question!!

Nice attempt at soup making. Problem is flavour and cooking.Envy, ignorance, industry, prosperity,borderless world with prospects,DK and finally that aggregate called Shudras all together half-cooked very badly and served. Please make another attempt with some other ingradients.

Oh yes, hindus who acquired 'awareness' are so stupid that they oppose casteism because of envy, ignorance, etc; which ofcourse the 'brahmins' do not have because of all the sattva gunas they have inherited. And these stupid hindus with awareness are so selfish that they cannot care about the progress of the nation. Only we brahmins with all the sattva gunas care about the country so much that we want casteism to remain. We will do social work but no social reform.

For a moment think about the panchaman in the ladder.

There is no difference between a panchama, a brahmin, a kshatriya, a vaishya. All are tribal fellows of the same origin. There is no need to call anyone as a "panchama", or a 'brahmin', 'ksatriya' or 'vaishya' or 'shudra'.

He would say the same thing when he is kicked out of the village temple by a thevar for daring to come near that temple. Is it not that he does not know what he has inherited to be kicked out that way? And when the Govt (of the majority castes for the majority castes by the majority castes) decides to help them they help by giving free land to them for building their own temple. And what about those HH and the like in their ivory towers fighting the brahmins? Their rules are different. When it comes to brahmins be vociferous and shout at the top of your voice marshalling all your resources. But when it comes to atrocities by the numerically dominant communities, either ignore the atrocities or pay just lip sympathy by writing a sentence or two about that also!!

If casteism has to go, then everyone has a role to play. We live in a democracy, and in a knowledge based economy where laws and rules are made not by killing one another or enforcing it upon the other; as in the days of the past. Which is why the actions of the 'upper-castes' are unlawful. Unfortuantely they get away with it in numerous ways. Loopholes in consitution were created by the orthodoxy to allow casteism to flourish. And personal laws that apply to Hindus were derived in part from the dharmashastras. This is a system where the issue of casteism has to be addressed from the intellectual / scriptural pov; so that the benefits can be reaped by all sections of the society. This is why the orthodoxy has a role to play.

Mr. KRS please do not delete the posting. It will be a standing testimony to the forked tongue and hypocracy of the educated elite of tamils who have obsession with anything that has anything to do with brahmins alone..

Alright Shri KRS ji, please do not delete the posting. Let me get to hear more of the likes of Shri Raju.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Subbudu Sir,

Greetings. I refer to post #126. If you think, no solution is required, then you possibly may think, there is no problem either. If you high-light a social issue, then there is a possibility of a solution. Either you are not seeing the point or you are ignoring the point.

Inter caste marriage is not a solution. If a brahmin boy marries a girl from a different caste, although inter caste, still the children are recorded as brahmins in the government documents. However, if a brahmin girl enters in a ICM, her children would be entered as belonging to her husbands caste as per records.

From my childhood myself and our family never discriminated in the name of caste. I was discriminated in the name of caste. Kindly spare any of the lectures in the name of caste; I just like to talk about the stark realities.

Cheers!

 

[subbudu1]

I wrote that not Krishnamurthy sir.

The case of Kayasthas in North India and Vellalars and Komatis in South India are 2 examples. The Calcutta High Court ruled that Kayasthas (of Bengal) are Shudras. The Allahabad High Court returned Kayasthas (of UP) as Brahmins and Patna High Court ruled that Kayasthas (of Bihar areas) are Kshatriyas. Description of these court cases are available in various books. The court cases of Komatis is described here. The case of the Vellalas has been described here. This is just a small sample. The Nagarathars also came up with their 'caste' duly faked in the colonial period to claim a Vaishya position for themselves. I will be blogging on each and every 'caste' so please wait for that.

Alright. For starters, there is the case of the Bagathas, a Scheduled Caste associated with farming. In the colonial period, some of them were given a supervisory role to supervise their own farmer tribesmen. These supervisor farmers were also given the role of dividing land amongst farmers of various tribes for cultivation. The Bagath 'caste' people distributed more land amongst their own tribesmen, and around the time when the hold of the british lessened on them, these tribesmen became owners of the land. In one particular area all land owners were Bagaths. Since they became land-owners they felt they should only own the land and not cultivate it themselves.

So the Bhagaths hired farmers from other 'castes' to do the farming. They established contact with Jangam and Sathani (SSV) priests to elevate them into "Kshatriyas" with the sacred thread. In this way a particular community took to claiming that they are 'Vedic Kshatriyas'. Some such key details are available in the book Journal of Social Research, Vol 15 published by the Council of Social and Cultural research.

Going back in time, evidence is available in the form of epigraphies / inscriptional evidence. I shall write about stories spun by tribal warriors and their priests such as koil-boyas and kapalika tantrics in the Vijayanagar period, since both sides gained from each other by elevating each other to the state of 'vedic brahmins' and 'vedic kshatriyas'. Since the content is very-very large, i shall blog on it taking care not to name the current communities.

1. Mudali and Naidu are titles, not castes. Anyone from any tribe or any caste could become a Mudali or a Nayaka or Thakur. It merely means some ancestor of theirs became a landowner, or that they acquired the title by hook or crook in recent times. It does not denote their caste.
2. It is baseless to claim that folks do not 'take the identity brahmin' by choice. As regards pride in identity, please let me put out all the content i have accumulated. Then everyone who claims to be brahmins, kshatriyas, vaishyas, can ponder over whether or not they want external factors such as "caste" to give them pride or self-esteem.

Yes ofcourse, we owe the current caste-based politics to "pride" in caste that has got into the bone marrow of people, thanks to the caste ethos that was helped along by the orthodoxy in the colonial period. So today we have to tolerate gundas, rouges and cheats like pawar, raja, yadav, katara, paswan, etc, etc who get elected in the name of caste and loot and sell the country. People like me can only hope that more chopters take away people like ys.

This was written by the rishi atreya. Not by Manu and his like. Thankgod there was one good man like Atreya in the whole lot of 'brahmins' of dharmashastras.

I wrote that, not TKS. Now take these 2 situations where i wud have escaped the predicament of having to accept TKS as a brahmin.

I) One is a situation where i wud be a nayak 'princess' of some stupid tribal origin where the men were drunkards and abused / exchanged women. Nevertheless being a part of the 'statehood' which my ilk created, we wud have had 'power' in our hands. In such case my ilk wud have employed tantrics and tribal priests and made them a part of the "statehood" elevating them to the state of "brahmins". We wud have done so because of mutual gain. The tribal priests get to become 'brahmins', rajpurohits, etc. And we gained by getting elaborate ceremonies created and conducted for ourselves.

And ofcourse our 'brahmins' will create elaborate geneologies connecting us to Yayati, Turvasa, or if we so fancied then to Rama Himself so that our offsprings can take "pride" in their newly acquired gotras, and lineage. After 350 years, my lot will insist that they were 'vedic kshatriyas' and your lot will insist that they are "vedic brahmins". And both of us will insist that it is a "respectable thing for others" to accept ourselves as such.

2) Another situation where i wud have escaped the predicament wud be if i were a member of a trade guild. Now this is the most powerful position. Especially if i belonged to a guild like Nakara guild (currently called Nagarathars), or to Nanadeshi / Ayyavole guild (members of which are currently spread out amongst Gavaras, Balijas and Komatis). If such a trade guild did not lend money, the king / warriors could not even commision temple building. Nor wud their armoury be supplied with arms and weapons. So the tribal men or so-called 'warriors' who cleared forest tracts, or acquired large tracts of land thru tribal fights, could forget their dreams of transforming their land into a Kingdom or State.

But as a trader, i would have support the kings because then i get to be elevated as a 'Vedic Vaishya' who gets to have a 'gotra' or 'kootam' based on temples (for social "pride" of course). So the nexus of bania-kshatriya-brahmana wud have worked well for all 3 of us.

Well, so Raju, i have conveyed the situation well i think. If i did not belong to the bunch of petty tribal fighters (who still abound as gundas today) or to a trade guild, it is quite possible that as a poor farmer (now designated as a 'shudra') under the vijayanagar rayas, i wud have had to face the situation of being forced to accept TKS as a 'brahmin'.

Viola, eureka, what a gem of a question!!

Oh yes, hindus who acquired 'awareness' are so stupid that they oppose casteism because of envy, ignorance, etc; which ofcourse the 'brahmins' do not have because of all the sattva gunas they have inherited. And these stupid hindus with awareness are so selfish that they cannot care about the progress of the nation. Only we brahmins with all the sattva gunas care about the country so much that we want casteism to remain. We will do social work but no social reform.

There is no difference between a panchama, a brahmin, a kshatriya, a vaishya. All are tribal fellows of the same origin. There is no need to call anyone as a "panchama", or a 'brahmin', 'ksatriya' or 'vaishya' or 'shudra'.

If casteism has to go, then everyone has a role to play. We live in a democracy, and in a knowledge based economy where laws and rules are made not by killing one another or enforcing it upon the other; as in the days of the past. Which is why the actions of the 'upper-castes' are unlawful. Unfortuantely they get away with it in numerous ways. Loopholes in consitution were created by the orthodoxy to allow casteism to flourish. And personal laws that apply to Hindus were derived in part from the dharmashastras. This is a system where the issue of casteism has to be addressed from the intellectual / scriptural pov; so that the benefits can be reaped by all sections of the society. This is why the orthodoxy has a role to play.

Alright Shri KRS ji, please do not delete the posting. Let me get to hear more of the likes of Shri Raju.

Regards.

I do see a lot of hardwork and sincerity in your research. The theory of origin of castes in India which you describe is not complete. What happened to the vedic brahmins who were there during the times of mahabharat? Did they disappear. Did they loose their religion or caste - all of them? A more reasonable position in my view is they spread throughout India, mixed with local castes and tribes. Full conversions may or may not have taken place. I dont know. But we should surely be having some brahmins who are the actual descendants of some historic rishis. Of course one can say that even these stories were cooked up. I dont know. However I dont believe one can rely on any past glory. One must work to get some name and fame. Enjoy the past like a fiction and look at the present. Nothing can be proven. This is my policy. Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Sowbagyavathy Happy Hindu, Greetings.

I understand, the points in post #117 were directed to Sri.TKS. But there are people who have no option, but have to be known by the tag 'brahmin', officially. For example, my children would be automatically called 'brahmin' against the caste column in any official documents. To make the matters worst, in the past, if the caste column was not filled up, the application was not deemed valid.

Sorry sir, i do not think anyone and everyone can claim to be a 'brahmin'. It is a position that i respect. Not a position that hindus should allow to be abused.

Also, this is not about the present. Its about how things were just 60+ years back and how they still affect us. I too have poor cousins who do not get reservation and are getting poorer by the day. Even if someone gets an engineering seat on merit he has to join BA or BSc because his father cannot afford the engineering college fees. Why should we have caste and caste-based reservations?

Unless the concept of a rigid caste goes from the socio-cultural ethos of the country, then its political implications and caste-based reservations are here to stay. Everyone will be forced to fill in the "caste" column on application forms.

The flip side of your criticism is, you are shooting at some people who are trapped in a barrel. It is quite possible, you may not be too concerned about the 'collateral damages'. You may bring forward many historical proofs; but, the fact remains, there are people who do not really have either superiority or inferiority complexes with the name of a caste, any caste. They may just see it just as an address in the social set-up and no more. Unfortunately, your detailed post did not address such neutral persons.

Am very sorry about this Shri Raghy. Thanks for asking this. It gives me the opportunity to make it clear that all my arguments are directed at those who are not neutral. They are directed to those who want to keep casteism going.

Your arguments are very nice; do you have a suggestion to make, please? Most if not all the neutral persons would agree with you; so, what is your alternative suggestion, please? What should they call themselves, which would be accepted officially, please? If you have a solution, then kindly write that too, please. Thank you. ( I am making this request sincerely. It is one thing to show the ills of the social frame work; without solutions, such criticism would sound empty. In my personal case, I did not want my children to go through caste system; I moved out of India. It will not be possible for everybody. So, what is the solution acceptable to to other castes too?).

Cheers!

Raghy Sir, i already suggested allowing vedic education for all. Also mentioned that one can belong to the culture of Srivaishnavas, madhavas, Vadamas, etc. Similarly one can belong to the culture of Nagarathars, Kapus, Komatis, etc. What is the necessity for any of them to claim varna terms of brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra ? What objective do such varna terms achieve?

 

[happyhindu]

I do see a lot of hardwork and sincerity in your research. The theory of origin of castes in India which you describe is not complete. What happened to the vedic brahmins who were there during the times of mahabharat? Did they disappear. Did they loose their religion or caste - all of them? A more reasonable position in my view is they spread throughout India, mixed with local castes and tribes. Full conversions may or may not have taken place. I dont know. But we should surely be having some brahmins who are the actual descendants of some historic rishis. Of course one can say that even these stories were cooked up. I dont know. However I dont believe one can rely on any past glory. One must work to get some name and fame. Enjoy the past like a fiction and look at the present. Nothing can be proven. This is my policy. Thank you.

Sir, your questions are very valid. I do have some content on them. But the content being vast and varied (accumulated by taking various angles into consideration) is best put on a blog. Which i shall do so soon. Regards.

 

[subbudu1]

Sri.Subbudu Sir,

Greetings. I refer to post #126. If you think, no solution is required, then you possibly may think, there is no problem either. If you high-light a social issue, then there is a possibility of a solution. Either you are not seeing the point or you are ignoring the point.

Inter caste marriage is not a solution. If a brahmin boy marries a girl from a different caste, although inter caste, still the children are recorded as brahmins in the government documents. However, if a brahmin girl enters in a ICM, her children would be entered as belonging to her husbands caste as per records.

From my childhood myself and our family never discriminated in the name of caste. I was discriminated in the name of caste. Kindly spare any of the lectures in the name of caste; I just like to talk about the stark realities.

Cheers!

Thank you for the reply. I dont know what you made of my posts. I am the last to give an excuse for some atrocity. Your father and grandfather did not do anything. But many of our grandfathers were passive. That is bad.

You may be slightly discriminated by caste. What about the dalits who are killed and raped even today. Why all this victim mentality. Who is a greater victim? Whose concern deserves greater attention.

Lot of things are done in caste records today. Our women are our greatest hope. They will fight out references to husband or father's caste. This is the tomorrow which cannot be stopped. Like it or not- intercaste marriage is happening anyway. Like it or not intercaste marriage and the freedom of women will leave no jathi, no title intact.

There is no way out for anybody.

 

[subbudu1]

Thank you for the reply. I dont know what you made of my posts. I am the last to give an excuse for some atrocity. Your father and grandfather did not do anything. But many of our grandfathers were passive. That is bad.

You may be slightly discriminated by caste. What about the dalits who are killed and raped even today. Why all this victim mentality. Who is a greater victim? Whose concern deserves greater attention.

Lot of things are done in caste records today. Our women are our greatest hope. They will fight out references to husband or father's caste. This is the tomorrow which cannot be stopped. Like it or not- intercaste marriage is happening anyway. Like it or not intercaste marriage and the freedom of women will leave no jathi, no title intact.

There is no way out for anybody.

Side note. When I visited a village in TN few years back. There some non brahmins were looking after a temple. Once the place was an agraharam. Today only non brahmins physically take care of the temple and guard it. They were very happy to see me. It needed no explanation that they gave a special treatment because I was a brahmin. They had no need to cut favor with me as they were well off themselves. I did not demand any attention. One old NB lady once fell at the feet of my wife( as a brahmin) and she scolded her for being so naive. Brahmins do enjoy respect even in TN . All that hatred campaigns is only one side of a story. But who gives special treatment to dalits- save the dalits themselves and a few revolutionaries? Let us not feel too much of a victim.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS,

I appreciate your line of argument and your maturity as evident in your presentations. I was very happy when you made your post #56. For some time I had been observing that members tend to post something and then when you take it up and start your argument, they come round and tell you, in so many words, that it was not what they intended. This problem was got over by our ancestors in a novel way. In any debate they used first state in detail the Purvapaksha arguments. Then each point was taken and debated in detail to disprove the contention and prove one's own point. I thought you were trying this method and I like your presentation. It served the purpose well.
But then horses that come wearing blinkers do not see any thing to the left or right. I am not accusing any one specifically here.

I would even suggest that our major debaters clearly state their position on the controversial subjects point by point as a position statement first. Then those who come to take the opposite view can take points one by one and debate. That would bring some kind of order and discipline to the thread and save from the tedium of repetition and resulting fatigue.

Raju ji -

Thanks for your statements! My hope is that this forum is able to enable multiple view points to be aired. You are indeed very preceptive as to figure out right away what I was trying to do! I like what you have suggested

Regards
TKS

 

[happyhindu]

Side note. When I visited a village in TN few years back. There some non brahmins were looking after a temple. Once the place was an agraharam. Today only non brahmins physically take care of the temple and guard it. They were very happy to see me. It needed no explanation that they gave a special treatment because I was a brahmin. They had no need to cut favor with me as they were well off themselves. I did not demand any attention. One old NB lady once fell at the feet of my wife( as a brahmin) and she scolded her for being so naive. Brahmins do enjoy respect even in TN . All that hatred campaigns is only one side of a story. But who gives special treatment to dalits- save the dalits themselves and a few revolutionaries? Let us not feel too much of a victim.

At every tharpanam, my mother falls at the feet of the brahmin priest and his wife after giving the lady a 'chata' filled with usable items. She does it with reverence. And i think the brahmin priests also have earned that reverence, because they live life as proper brahmins (please note they are well off, not poor. No one needs to be poor to be proper brahmin priests). I cannot imagine my mom doing the same to a couple in secular jobs just bcoz they call themsleves brahmins. That wud be utter hypocricy. And a mockery of the religion.

 

[tks]

Folks,

I really do not understand many arguments here.

I think that it stems from a confusion - confusion to separate a culture of people and any alleged and real wrong doings of some folks in the past, being looked back from the vantage point of today's mores and values.

Past can only be learnt from - it can never be obliterated. As I have said countless times here, I totally reject the notion that MY FOREFATHERS participated knowingly all the 'oppression' and wrong deeds alleged here.

Dharma Shastras are odious and very importantly, we have a Dharma Shastra called the Indian Constitution, and her criminal and civil laws.

Whoever that is insisting that the Hindu Dharma Shastras are the valid laws to govern today's society, at best must know that they are no better than those who are intent on imposing Sharia laws on a secular country and at worst should be admitted to an asylum to have their head examined.

When I say, I am a 'Tamil Brahmin', it is just a fact - I was born in to a culture and identity of my parents and grand parents who considered themselves 'that'. Both of my grandparents and my father never were casteists. They had numerous friends from all castes as well as from other religions - they did not see others as any inferior and their dining rooms were always open to these folks. But, like their friends who labeled themselves with their identities (Mudaliar, Chettiar, Anglo Indian, Syrian Christian, Catholic, Moplah Muslim, Sufi Muslim etc.) and were proud of them, so I am with my identity.

I have never discriminated against anyone in my life on the basis of race/religion/skin color or economic conditions. So was my dad and my grand parents. Yet, when I graduated from college in free India, I was discriminated against just because I was labeled 'Brahmin'. I was not alone. Others were too.

Yes, I only welcome the upliftment of everyone in the Indian society to achieve their potential. But, in the process, please do not group me as a person who is a casteist, because in the past, some belonging to my ancestry abused a system that started with idealism.

So, if they do it today, apply today's Dharma Shastra against them. Put them in jail. Even if you do not do it, please be aware that the modern life represented by the industrial economy, nuclearization of the family and rapid technological advancements would take care of that. How can casteism survive in a egalitarian and a merit oriented society? It can not.

I gave an example of Pol Pot and his effort to create a 'just' society on theoretical basis by stamping out all 'elitist' cultures in his country. Millions were killed, but perhaps more importantly, the country lost cultures that fueled her entrepreneurship. Especially the Chinese culture. When ever I cited this in the past, Professor Nara Ji took offence. But my point in citing this is not about the killings (which by the way are conveniently dismissed by those, who constantly cite the past atrocities committed by theist societies of the past), but every past culture has a role to play today. No past culture is 100% bad or 100% good, if one looks at them with today's mores and values. Yet, we are here today, with today's knowledge, because of our forefathers' lives. No Renaissance without the dark ages.

Yes, I agree that our religion's concept of castes is not valid today. But, outside of this system, I consider my religion as one of the most beautiful for the humanity to hand it's hats on. With India's freedom, casteism is illegal. This is enough for me to move on, secure in my thoughts that over time, caste will go away.

But, in the mean time, let me try to understand who I am, without all this badgering and lectures from others that if I call myself a Tamil Brahmin, that is somehow offensive to others. It is not a caste to me, but an identity of myself. Yes, I am a born 'Tamil Brahmin', but Iam not a 'Brahmin' in the classical sense. I do not do anything a true classical 'Brahmin' was required to do. In this sense I look at others only as who they are as human beings. I do not understand this 'Guna' stuff as my life experience has taught me otherwise. There are sattvic folks everywhere. There are scoundrels everywhere.

But, please do not destroy my heritage based on inequities from the past as seen from today's mores and values. Unlike those of you who call yourselves agnostic and rationalists, I just can not label my forefathers as the oppressors and heartless. If you are intent on doing so, please go ahead. But, please, leave our heritage alone. "Brahminism' is not a dark force. Within the culture of India and Hinduism, this word in the past only mostly represented the good.

There, I have said it.

Regards,
KRS

KRS -ji -

I enjoyed reading this post since you have made a few points better and with more clarity than I was aspiring to.
While I may not agree to your points on another post (the way I understood) regarding vegetarian aspects(which is huge topic,has its own thread elsewhere and hence did not comment ) I am able to understand and even resonate well with what you have stated here.

In fact all I was trying to say about Guna you have summarized well - "There are sattvic folks everywhere. There are scoundrels everywhere" and I want to add that achieving the best that one can be is the directive in Gita and in addition it provides prescriptions based on where one is (what guna is predominant).

Regards,
TKS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Shri KRS Ji,

I wish to ask a few questions please.

Past can only be learnt from - it can never be obliterated. As I have said countless times here, I totally reject the notion that MY FOREFATHERS participated knowingly all the 'oppression' and wrong deeds alleged here.

Sir, how do you know for sure that they were "your forefathers" ? What happens if your ancestors were jangam priests who elevated themselves in recent times as Smartha 'Brahmins'? Also sir, how can one claim that the brahmins of dharmashastras participated in oppression unknowingly?

Whoever that is insisting that the Hindu Dharma Shastras are the valid laws to govern today's society, at best must know that they are no better than those who are intent on imposing Sharia laws on a secular country and at worst should be admitted to an asylum to have their head examined.

This is the best part of any post on this thread sir. Thankyou.

When I say, I am a 'Tamil Brahmin', it is just a fact - I was born in to a culture and identity of my parents and grand parents who considered themselves 'that'. Both of my grandparents and my father never were casteists. They had numerous friends from all castes as well as from other religions - they did not see others as any inferior and their dining rooms were always open to these folks. But, like their friends who labeled themselves with their identities (Mudaliar, Chettiar, Anglo Indian, Syrian Christian, Catholic, Moplah Muslim, Sufi Muslim etc.) and were proud of them, so I am with my identity.

Sir, Mudaliar, Chettiar, are not varna designations. For that matter, Aiyer and Aiyangar are not varna designations either. If one is a Vadagalai Srivaishnava like Raju or if one is a Smartha like yourself, how does either of you become a 'Brahmin' ?

Yes, I only welcome the upliftment of everyone in the Indian society to achieve their potential. But, in the process, please do not group me as a person who is a casteist, because in the past, some belonging to my ancestry abused a system that started with idealism.

Sir, am not sure how can we claim there was a "system that started with idealism"? Please i request you to elaborate on it.

With India's freedom, casteism is illegal. This is enough for me to move on, secure in my thoughts that over time, caste will go away.

Again sir in what way can we hope for "caste" to go away just because we live in a "free" country where casteism is supposedly illegal?

Yes, I am a born 'Tamil Brahmin', but I am not a 'Brahmin' in the classical sense.

Sir, i have to ask this question, and please do not take offence. In a way this is directed to Shri TKS. Sir, are you born with brahmagnanam? Please i request you to see this question as an introspective one, not one in which one takes offence to the person asking the questions.

If one is born a brahmin, then possibly he does not need an upanayanam even. No brahmopadesam required, no need to invoke Savitr to enlighten the dhi / thots / mind. Because he is already born a Vipra who possibly knows even the upanishad byheart. Sir if yourself, Shri TKS, or if anyone is such, then i feel all hindus will most happily accept them as a brahmin by birth.

I do not understand this 'Guna' stuff as my life experience has taught me otherwise. There are sattvic folks everywhere. There are scoundrels everywhere.

Unfortunately, the orthodoxy interprets the Gita verses in a particular way. That is, that brahmins are by birth. Hence we are forced to accept that only brahmins (by birth) have sattva gunas. If so, then how come there are scounderals amongst those who claim to be brahmins by birth? Will that mean the orthodoxy is wrong? Or that the Gita is wrong? Or that the people who (ab)use the Gita to propagate their particualr views are wrong?

But, please do not destroy my heritage based on inequities from the past as seen from today's mores and values.

Sir, who is "destroying" your heritage based on anything?

Unlike those of you who call yourselves agnostic and rationalists, I just can not label my forefathers as the oppressors and heartless.

Sir if your ancestors were anthanars, which in all probability the southindian priests were, then surely they are dignified and graceful priests and philosophers. But if they were the self-designated "brahmins" of the dharmashastras, then yes they were oppressors and heartless. Not just by present day mores, but by any standard of dignity they were oppressors and heartless. Unfortunately, the southindian priests want to be "aryan", "vedic brahmins", etc etc, and concentrated on building such an image of themselves during the colonial period, instead of concentrating on their anthanar heritage.

"Brahminism' is not a dark force. Within the culture of India and Hinduism, this word in the past only mostly represented the good.

Unfortunately sir the word brahman represents 2 images -- one of a monk meditating and becoming one with brahman, and another of a dharmashastra oppressor. It really depends on the person in whom either image is evoked. If he is a 'shudra' labourer he unfortunately cannot accept that 'brahmanism' (labour laws) mostly represented the good.

Regards.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Shri KRS Ji,

I wish to ask a few questions please.


Sir, how do you know for sure that they were "your forefathers" ? What happens if your ancestors were jangam priests who elevated themselves in recent times as Smartha 'Brahmins'? Also sir, how can one claim that the brahmins of dharmashastras participated in oppression unknowingly?



This is the best part of any post on this thread sir. Thankyou.


Sir, Mudaliar, Chettiar, are not varna designations. For that matter, Aiyer and Aiyangar are not varna designations either. If one is a Vadagalai Srivaishnava like Raju or if one is a Smartha like yourself, how does either of you become a 'Brahmin' ?


Sir, am not sure how can we claim there was a "system that started with idealism"? Please i request you to elaborate on it.


Again sir in what way can we hope for "caste" to go away just because we live in a "free" country where casteism is supposedly illegal?


Sir, i have to ask this question, and please do not take offence to that. In a way this is directed to Shri TKS. Sir, are you born with brahmagnanam? If yes, then possibly do not need an upanayanam even. No brahmopadesam required, no need to invoke Savitr to enlighten your dhi / thots / mind. Because you are already born a Vipra who possibly knows even the upanishad byheart. If you are such, hindus will most happily accept you as a brahmin by birth.


Unfortunately, the orthodoxy says that only brahmins are born with sattva gunas. So how come there are scounderals amongst those who claim to be brahmins by birth?


Sir, who is "destroying" your heritage based on anything?


Sir if your ancestors were anthanars, which in all probability the southindian priests were, then surely they are dignified and graceful priests and philosophers. But if they were the self-designated "brahmins" of the dharmashastras, then yes they were oppressors and heartless. Unfortunately, the southindian priests want to be "aryan", "vedic brahmins", etc etc, and concentrated on building such an image of themselves during the colonial period, instead of concentrating on their anthanar heritage.


Unfortunately sir the word brahman represents 2 images -- one of a monk meditating and becoming one with brahman, and another of a dharmashastra oppressor. It really depends on the person in whom either image is evoked. If he is a 'shudra' labourer he unfortunately cannot accept that 'brahmanism' (labour laws) mostly represented the good.

Regards.

Lot of good questions nobody in this forum can answer. You hit the nail on the head when you questioned the use of a brahmin title!
Lets start with what are the names so called brahmins can use.
1. Let purohits use the term brahmin along with their subcaste names. However B and NBs are free to include any other priest in this name.
2. You propose a generic name for everyone here and start using it. It may catch up. Dont use subcaste titles. What happens to people whose identity is outside subcaste or subsect.Vaishnava smartha etc should mean that someone should follow some philosophy and strict life. There are very few here that can live to those titles.

I have no answer to your perfectly right questions. I am now twisting my head, speechless.

 

[happyhindu]

But HH and some sociologists like KI think that brahmins will manage caste into eternity and there will be riots and wars. I dont see that happening.

Shri Subbudu, am not sure why you assume something like this. I feel there is corruption in the religion. And corruption of any form has to be weeded out. That's all. We are talking of here and now, not about an eternity.

Children of most rigid Bs continue to intermarry. I know of a B who will not let his children marry anyone other than a vadama. This man's child rebelled and asked to be married to a B of another state. Finally because she was a B he agreed. That girl's sister married a NB. This man's daughter married an NB as well much against this man's wishes. He still has not given up hope on his son and DIL. But how is it possible now that the next generation has got different kinds of relatives, that too that they are citizens of a western country now?

Best advice for any B to be reasonable to kids. Give some extra bandwidth be some extra broadminded . When the kids see more options from parents, they may consult them. Otherwise forget consultation also.

HH need not worry. So much of abuse of brahmin term was in place. Nature finds means of autocorrection. I think time is due now.

Again sir, what is the necessity to bring marriages into the picture? How does intercaste marriages solve anything ?

Regards.

 

[subbudu1]

I feel there is corruption in the religion. And corruption of any form has to be weeded out. That's all. We are talking of here and now, not about an eternity.

I am not sure what is there to disagree here. I fully accept your view that Identity of brahmins is itself in question. Marriages are the biggest identity breakers. Forget the caste records those belong to this age and time.You are talking about what should happen. I am telling when it will happen. People are afraid to change unless forced to confront with things. I dont see any conflict occurring in society because intercaste marriages are dissolving all our identities into a greater whole. It is only when everybody behave like a family member, you will see people being broadminded about vedas for shudras etc etc. Then you will see the real definition of brahmin being implemented.
Hope that explains.

 

[subbudu1]

If we look at even TN. Brahmins were treated remarkably well by the NB. Politicians dirtied the situation. But people are people - they are good. Yes there was reservation. There were some rowdies who assaulted brahmins. But we did not face the situation of the elite of France- French revolution , if some remember the stories. Brahmins also worked hard and won respect. That is also there.

In the 90s even I was outraged by reservations. The 69% , looked like the reservation will only become more. But as a brahmin youngster passout of a top Management Institute , told me. By hook or crook, the statistics have to be changed. The lower caste have to occupy the top positions and top colleges. It is only then dynamics will change. Communist in mentality, I was not sure what this youngster will do in corporate sector? Reservation will seem a dismal situation for brahmins? I thought so. Then came the news of the intercaste marriages. Every house had a story. I realized after a few years that this is going to change every situation!

Okay I thought caste and caste purity will go for a toss. Bit rattling when I thought for first few years in this decade. But the tide seems inevitable. But the NB B difference will become unimportant. When father is a dalit and mom is a brahmin, why is the child going to worry about who did what 1000 years back. He will now be engaged fully in productive activities. Like the chineese , we also hopefully can engage on the common Indian greatness and not worry about Iyer, Iyengar, Nair, dalit, rajput etc. May be some will continue caste. I am sure by then it will be an issue of culture and not superior-inferior and all discussions on caste purity will become reduced to hush tones?

 

[kunjuppu]

Unlike you I loved my stay there during those times. Social sensitivity and social issues did not come up in this head of mine. I did not insult any low caste and was friendly by and large but I tagged along the tambram crowd.
What hit me slowly was something else. The hypocracy of it all. I moved out of chennai. First thing to hit me was that my own crowd was not the most friendly to me. I had by then seen that the selfishness in our society. I dont claim to be outside it. I found so many NBs outside TN, genuinely friendly and obviously so. I could go and eat in my neighbour's house whenever I wanted and enter without knocking the door. They would be careful about how food is prepared even without my worry. Switch the televlsion in their house and so on. He was not a brahmin. I have to think 10 times to visit some other B friends. That there was no brahmin hatred outside TN helped. Then I have to keep coming to chennai for this marriage, that marriage. So much attitude so much fuss in the relative circles. Your friend circle has widened outside your own caste circle.
For me its a gradual broadening. I still cherish many values that I grew up with. My relations parents all of them built a good value system. Its upto me to consciously cherry pick the good and throw the attitudes, selfishness etc etc.

Dear subbudu,

Pray let me explain. I grew up in a neighbourhood which was mixed and Brahmins were a minority. The majority were catholics and my best friend was a hindu nadir. My parents overtly never practised casteism, probably because both were educated in mission schools in kerala.

Also where they grew up in north Malabar, they were a minority and there was no concept of agraharam. Brahmins depended on NB & Christians and Muslims for survival.

I think my poonal was the first occasion of overt casteism and at 14, along with teenage angst, I had a couple of traumatic experiences which turned me off towards brahminism. With this bud growing in my mind by the time I reached early 20s, I knew I had to leave, before being sucked into the web of reactionary society.

In those years, I dabbled in extreme right wing philosophy, RSS, et al and only through miracle, managed to extricate myself from further involvement and mental degradation. Also, for the first time in my life, I discovered what it meant to be in a society full of Brahmins – my University, and I did not quite like it, for various reasons.

Add to it, the rule of indira Gandhi was the last straw in my already fragile mental framework. Canada was an escape and then a sanctuary – for anonymity and a chance to live life on my own terms.

Also, to be considered, that during most of my life, I was overshadowed with the guiding principle நாலு பேரு என்ன சொல்லுவாங்க, especially when it came to social views. It has taken close to 6 decades before I mustered the courage even to express my views. That too happened in another forum, and I made a lot of enemies of the tambrams. I was also kicked out of another exclusively Brahmin forum.

My earliest posts were raw and rough, and probably hurt a lot of traditionalists. Since then, I have learned to tone down, and yet be forceful and (I hope) assertive.

The learning journey never ends till the last breath. Doesn’t it?

 

[subbudu1]

Dear subbudu,

Pray let me explain. I grew up in a neighbourhood which was mixed and Brahmins were a minority. The majority were catholics and my best friend was a hindu nadir. My parents overtly never practised casteism, probably because both were educated in mission schools in kerala.

Also where they grew up in north Malabar, they were a minority and there was no concept of agraharam. Brahmins depended on NB & Christians and Muslims for survival.

I think my poonal was the first occasion of overt casteism and at 14, along with teenage angst, I had a couple of traumatic experiences which turned me off towards brahminism. With this bud growing in my mind by the time I reached early 20s, I knew I had to leave, before being sucked into the web of reactionary society.

In those years, I dabbled in extreme right wing philosophy, RSS, et al and only through miracle, managed to extricate myself from further involvement and mental degradation. Also, for the first time in my life, I discovered what it meant to be in a society full of Brahmins – my University, and I did not quite like it, for various reasons.

Add to it, the rule of indira Gandhi was the last straw in my already fragile mental framework. Canada was an escape and then a sanctuary – for anonymity and a chance to live life on my own terms.

Also, to be considered, that during most of my life, I was overshadowed with the guiding principle நாலு பேரு என்ன சொல்லுவாங்க, especially when it came to social views. It has taken close to 6 decades before I mustered the courage even to express my views. That too happened in another forum, and I made a lot of enemies of the tambrams. I was also kicked out of another exclusively Brahmin forum.

My earliest posts were raw and rough, and probably hurt a lot of traditionalists. Since then, I have learned to tone down, and yet be forceful and (I hope) assertive.

The learning journey never ends till the last breath. Doesn’t it?

Yes Sir agree. Talk to the youngsters your views will get a new inspiration. I was totally anti-reservation till a youngster put this interesting view, mentioned in post 142.

All these ideas were not new. Was it not said - jathi illaiyadi pappa , by the revolutionary poet whom everyone respects here.

 

[happyhindu]

Lets start with what are the names so called brahmins can use.

Sir, is it not a better idea to leave it to people to name themselves? Let them have a conscience and be true to themselves when they do so. If one starts designating names today, those very names will become caste names in future.

Also, why does anyone need 'caste' names. Especially when we are speaking of allowing all hindu children to go to vedic schools. I feel once all hindus start going to vedic schools these things (names) will take care of itself.

However B and NBs are free to include any other priest in this name.
2. You propose a generic name for everyone here and start using it. It may catch up. Dont use subcaste titles. What happens to people whose identity is outside subcaste or subsect.Vaishnava smartha etc should mean that someone should follow some philosophy and strict life. There are very few here that can live to those titles.

I thot names of subcaste (like vadama, brihacharanam, etc) merely suggest the culture which an individual professes. I did not think it is a title. If one is not following the culture, then he need not claim to belong to that culture.

Am aware that asking people to be honest with themselves is too much to ask. Am hoping these posts will influence the younger generations, especially teenagers, who tend to be idealistic. Hopefully these young minds will explore things further and create an egalitarian society condusive to all.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Happy Hindu, Greetings.

Sorry sir, i do not think anyone and everyone can claim to be a 'brahmin'. It is a position that i respect. Not a position that [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]hindus[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] should allow to be abused.

I am in agreement with you. That's why I used the term 'caste brahmnins' in my previous posts, which was not favoured by members like Sri.Nara. I did not favour someone using a varna name to denote their caste. I explained that in a few different occassions. But, unfortunately, we do have a caste by the name 'brahmin' in the society. We didn't make it; but, we are caught in that. Personally, I don't even have a huge respect for the varna name. They all were tools used to enslave people in the society. Matter of fact, it enslaved the 'brahmins' too. I worked in the farm as any labourer; I took up trade course and worked in factories and machine-shops, involved in physical labour... Sometimes I heard comments like 'if brahmins are coming to even for these jobs, where can we (meaning NBs) go?'

I am not in favour of varna system or caste system. But we are caught in that.

Also, this is not about the present. Its about how things were just 60+ years back and how they still affect us. I too have poor [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]cousins[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] who do not get reservation and are getting poorer by the day. Even if someone gets an engineering seat on merit he has to join BA or BSc because his father cannot afford the engineering college fees. Why should we have caste and caste-based reservations?

Unless the concept of a rigid caste goes from the socio-cultural ethos of the country, then its political implications and caste-based reservations are here to stay. Everyone will be forced to fill in the "caste" column on application forms.

Seldom I high-light any of my posts. But the above message required high-lighting. I agree with you. Caste system and the ever present discriminations are really bad medecine for the Hindu society. Whether we like it or not, we are required to fill the relevant column against 'caste'; If I wrote 'Iyengar' against caste column, it will be rejected; it has to be 'brahmin'.

I am all for helping the vulnerable people in the society (not just based on caste alone though). Why should there be a caste-based reservations? India is so rich now, why can't the Government allocate in every town, a whole college just for the vulnerable students only? I mean, like any university here, covering engineering/health/accounting/science courses? Government of India is rich enough to do it.

Am very sorry about this [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]Shri[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] Raghy. Thanks for asking this. It gives me the opportunity to make it clear that all my arguments are directed at those who are not neutral. They are directed to those who want to keep casteism going.

We should be strengthening these 'neutral persons' from all castes. These are the persons who would bring social reforms. I actually saw some of them during my last India trip. For example, As a group, some of us visted an Iyengar's home; he was showing off the house, every room; When it came to 'Pooja room' I thought he may not enter to avoid others from entering; no, Sir! He requested everyone, brahmin and NB alike inside the pooja room. We all went in, offered namaskarams in the pooja room. Such persons should be encouraged and supported, in my opinion.

Raghy Sir, i already suggested allowing [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]vedic[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] education for all. Also mentioned that one can belong to the culture of Srivaishnavas, madhavas, Vadamas, etc. Similarly one can belong to the culture of Nagarathars, Kapus, Komatis, etc. What is the necessity for any of them to claim varna terms of brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra ? What objective do such varna terms achieve?

Sowbagyavathy HH, You did mention about vedic education for all; It is opening up for all. Initially it was from Arya Samaj only; now more and more places seem to open up, which is a very good sign. But, why? Why vedic education? How would that resolve caste differences? I don't really understand. If you think, only that way we can have NB priests taking part in temple poojas, then I have different opinion on that, please. Most Amman temples have only NB poojaries. (in my village, it is a Gounder gentleman, my class mate; my daughter was rapped to meet him and talk to him about my primary school years!); In a Ramar temple, the poojari is a Mudaliar gentleman (appointed by my mother; she had an option to appoint a brahmin, but she chose him. That is the only temple my mother visits, gets 'theertham' and 'sadari' from him; he also recites 'Sundara kandam' once a year and my mother attends his recital).

We need to strengthen neutrals from every caste; they are the important players to bring social reforms in the future. In my opinion, just by opposing people who follow casteism, one may not cause any constructive social reforms.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS,

From what I know of you I think you are a fair person who will never let caste feelings define you. I have not interacted a lot with Shri TKS, however, even though I am very disappointed with the style and tone of his presentation, I have nothing to doubt his sincerity either, and I will readily take his word that "Brahmin" is just an identity for him without any caste supremacy that is usually associated with that term.

But my arguments are not about how one or two individuals view this identity, one that is essentially a caste identity, but it is against how that identity is defined theoretically by the orthodoxy, widely practiced by an overwhelming majority of Brahmins, and generally understood by the society.

I won't rehash all the old arguments, all I wish to say is, personal anecdotes only explain how a particular individual feels, it is not an accurate definition of what the identity really is.

....I gave an example of Pol Pot and his effort to create a 'just' society on theoretical basis by stamping out all 'elitist' cultures in his country.

Would this then mean that those who express an aspiration for a "just" society, can in some way be compared to Pol Pot? Or, perhaps you are trying to point out that should one try to bring about a "just" society, the only logical result will be what Pol Pot did to his people? You bringing in Pol Pot was completely unwarranted. I wish you had not done it, and I wish even more that you would stop standing by it.

But, please do not destroy my heritage based on inequities from the past as seen from today's mores and values.

I don't buy this argument that dismantling the caste system is equivalent to destroying the Brahmin heritage. What part of your heritage will die out unless you call yourself a Brahmin and think of yourself as a Brahmin?

BTW, Brahminism is by definition one designed by the Dharmashahthras, which I know you reject. The Brahmin ideal is to follow the Dharmashasthras. The farther one goes away from Dharmashasthras, the more one rejects Brahminism. Brahmin identity is hopelessly intertwined with Dharmashsthras. The only way one can reject Dharmashasthras is to reject ones caste identity.

So, IMO, you have already rejected Brahminism and the Brahmin identity in your life much more emphatically than many here. What you follow is not Brahminism, and your identity is not that of a Brahmin. You follow a framework or system that you have worked out for yourself, and I respect that. IMO, the reason you are unable to let ago of the caste identity is your reverence for your forefathers and perhaps some nostalgia thrown in. In practice you have rejected the Brahmin identity in toto, you just can't bring yourself to admit it

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Subbudu Sir, Greetings.

Thank you for the reply. I dont know what you made of my posts. I am the last to give an excuse for some atrocity. Your father and grandfather did not do anything. But many of our grandfathers were passive. That is bad.

I was discussing about your post #126 only. I think, I clearly mentioned that. I am not judging you or your point of view in anyway. I just analysed that one post only. Matter of fact, I do not know what my father or grandfather did; For some reason, the family I grew up was/is female dominated. (No, husband was not 'hen pecked'; in my grandma's case, she became a widow in her 20s; by the time my grandmother passed away, my father had no interest other than refurbishing a Rama temple..and he passed away. So, it is my mother who is consulted for everything).

What do you mean our grandfathers were passive , that was bad? Most decisions were made by rich and affluent brahmins who discriminated fellow brahmins like panchangar iyer, battacharyar, brahmanartha brahmin and paricharaga brahmins. When such affluent brahmins did not hesitate to discriminate fellow brahmins, I don't have to mention about other castes, not to mention Harijans. (Can you imagine anyone getting thrown out of a 'pandhi' when the serving had started? One had to be dirt poor to enjoy such experiences). Such great brahmins made decisions and sent their children to USA or UK to study. They had vitamin 'M'. What can our grandfathers do? Who would listen to them?

You may be slightly discriminated by caste. What about the dalits who are killed and raped even today. Why all this victim mentality. Who is a greater victim? Whose concern deserves greater attention.

You must be joking. Discrimination is just that; I don't quantify discriminations. I was discriminated, period. I don't see how you can quantify that. In a small town (just a district headquarters), in a second class college (not even the best college in town), my application was thrown out when I had 78% average; I was waiting for admission card everyday, pestering the post master. Students with 55% got admission card, and I did not. By the way, I had zero elders support. Slightly discriminated? Wow!

What has dalits getting killed and getting raped has anything to do with discrimination against me? What do you mean victim mentality? When I was a victim of discrimination, I shall say that. That is not 'victim mentality' What I said is a fact. I think you are loosing the plot here... Victims are just victims; there is no such thing as 'greater victim' or 'lesser victim'. When a kid 14 years old, who even considered suicide after discrimination, he was a victim; that kid was not interested in social reforms, social injustices etc. He worked hard; got a decent mark sheet..all he wants to do is just study.

Every kid who is denied admission for higher studies on the basis of caste based reservation is a victim, as of today.

For those kids, their concerns deserve more attention. Dalits are killed or raped because, the social structure is a sinus wound. It stinks skyhigh. It is well maintained that way for the politicians to reap votes. Kids missing out admission for higher studies shall not solve the problems faced by the dalits by the high caste hindus. You are just trying to divert the issue here. Tell me, in what way kids missing out admiision based on caste reservations connected to dalits getting killed or raped by high caste hindus? thanks.

We are not talking about 'breaking news' here to cause 'greater attention'. We are talking about social issues. I don't know about you, personally for me, a dalit is no different from a brahmin; I would look at both their problems with equal seriousness; I will not discriminate against a brahmin in favour of a dalit.

Lot of things are done in caste records today. Our women are our greatest hope. They will fight out references to husband or father's caste.

Sir, I can not understand the quoted portion. Kindly explain, please. Thanks.

Like it or not- intercaste marriage is happening anyway. Like it or not intercaste marriage and the freedom of women will leave no jathi, no title intact.

There is no way out for anybody.

Freedom for women will not remove caste system. Marumakkal Thayam was followed in Kerala; women had freedom and power... did it eradicate caste system?

Sir, I showed in my earlier post to you, why ICM may not remove caste system. Secondly, ICMs are happening; but not in such a large percentage to effect a social reform. Although I do not know the exact number, I don't think it is so common. If all the brahmin girls adopt ICM only, brahmin caste may vanish; caste system will not vanish. Have you thought about that?

Sir, in my opinion, neither your post #126 nor your post #133 addressed practical social issues.

Cheers!

 

[subbudu1]

Sri.Subbudu Sir, Greetings.



I was discussing about your post #126 only. I think, I clearly mentioned that. I am not judging you or your point of view in anyway. I just analysed that one post only. Matter of fact, I do not know what my father or grandfather did; For some reason, the family I grew up was/is female dominated. (No, husband was not 'hen pecked'; in my grandma's case, she became a widow in her 20s; by the time my grandmother passed away, my father had no interest other than refurbishing a Rama temple..and he passed away. So, it is my mother who is consulted for everything).

What do you mean our grandfathers were passive , that was bad? Most decisions were made by rich and affluent brahmins who discriminated fellow brahmins like panchangar iyer, battacharyar, brahmanartha brahmin and paricharaga brahmins. When such affluent brahmins did not hesitate to discriminate fellow brahmins, I don't have to mention about other castes, not to mention Harijans. (Have you ever been thrown out of a 'pandhi' when the serving had started? One had to be dirt poor to enjoy such experiences). Such great brahmins made decisions and sent their children to USA or UK to study. They had vitamin 'M'. What can our grandfathers do? Who would listen to them?



You must be joking. Discrimination is just that; I don't quantify discriminations. I was discriminated, period. I don't see how you can quantify that. In a small town (just a district headquarters), in a second class college (not even the best college in town), my application was thrown out when I had 78% average; I was waiting for admission card everyday, pestering the post master. Students with 55% got admission card, and I did not. By the way, I had zero elders support. Slightly discriminated? Wow!

What has dalits getting killed and getting raped has anything to do with discrimination against me? What do you mean victim mentality? When I was a victim of discrimination, I shall say that. That is not 'victim mentality' What I said is a fact. I think you are loosing the plot here... Victims are just victims; there is no such thing as 'greater victim' or 'lesser victim'. When a kid 14 years old, who even considered suicide after discrimination, he was a victim; that kid was not interested in social reforms, social injustices etc. He worked hard; got a decent mark sheet..all he wants to do is just study.

Every kid who is denied admission for higher studies on the basis of caste based reservation is a victim, as of today.

For those kids, their concerns deserve more attention. Dalits are killed or raped because, the social structure is a sinus wound. It stinks skyhigh. It is well maintained that way for the politicians to reap votes. Kids missing out admission for higher studies shall not solve the problems faced by the dalits by the high caste hindus. You are just trying to divert the issue here. Tell me, in what way kids missing out admiision based on caste reservations connected to dalits getting killed or raped by high caste hindus? thanks.

We are not talking about 'breaking news' here to cause 'greater attention'. We are talking about social issues. I don't know about you, personally for me, a dalit is no different from a brahmin; I would look at both their problems with equal seriousness; I will not discriminate against a brahmin in favour of a dalit.



Sir, I can not understand the quoted portion. Kindly explain, please. Thanks.



Freedom for women will not remove caste system. Marumakkal Thayam was followed in Kerala; women had freedom and power... did it eradicate caste system?

Sir, I showed in my earlier post to you, why ICM may not remove caste system. Secondly, ICMs are happening; but not in such a large percentage to effect a social reform. Although I do not know the exact number, I don't think it is so common. If all the brahmin girls adopt ICM only, brahmin caste may vanish; caste system will not vanish. Have you thought about that?

Sir, in my opinion, neither your post #126 nor your post #133 addressed practical social issues.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,
I can understand your anguish. I have myself seen different forms of discrimination within brahmin circles and outside. Yes reservation is a bad deal. But today every poor person is complaining brahmin or non brahmin. Few opportunities and large country. I dont know what to say. Reservation is a reality. It is not sufficient to talk about caste equality we must have a greater identity as a nation. You are indeed an exception among so many others. Reservation is because of caste system. But things will not change tomorrow just like that who wants to give up the few opportunities that they have? We cannot convert a selfish country to selfless country overnight. If you are worried about job every minute even if you have benefited by reservations, will you want to give up. Think about the caste feelings. I am not talking of you.

If there was one single community atleast judging by the number of poor, reservation may be based on poverty rather than caste. Brahmins are not only inter-marrying, other castes are also intermarrying. Intercaste marriage is definately increasing. I also dont know how many but in any case this is important to have a one single community. It is the only way reservation can be abolished in a country with so many poor who always want some help.

Women are dominating sir. Dont compare with Marumakkal Thayam. It was not the time when women and men worked together in same office and mixed irrespective of caste. Today women not only have freedom they have so many opportunities to mix with other castes and work with men on an equal footing. They earn equal money as husbands. In the kerala system some peculiar and tyrannical rules of caste and marriage was imposed. There was no free intermixing like now. There was no all caste meeting between men and women. Women had their work places , men had their work places in the kerala system. Situation is different. Forgive me , I honestly cannot see the parallel between the two.

Lot of things are done in caste records today. Our women are our greatest hope. They will fight out references to husband or father's caste.

Is this not fairly clear? Already girls are making fun of gotras and patriarchy. I see this as a sign of growing importance to maternal lineage too. I quoted the story of a gentleman whose daughter has married an NB. The girl is firmly asserting her rights for a brahminical custom in every ceremony. Marriage , child giving etc etc. The boy was strictly asked to wear a poonal for marriage and for all ceremonies.I dont know if she is being fair, but this is the trend.

If mother and father start asserting their identity equally , as it will happen in any successful marriage,the child will be free from caste bondage.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi Happy Hindu Ji,

My response in 'blue' below.

Dear Shri KRS Ji,

I wish to ask a few questions please.

Sir, how do you know for sure that they were "your forefathers" ? What happens if your ancestors were jangam priests who elevated themselves in recent times as Smartha 'Brahmins'? Also sir, how can one claim that the brahmins of dharmashastras participated in oppression unknowingly?
I don't know who they were in terms of Castes. That is why I said 'MY FOREFATHERS'. I know the make up of my parents and their parents. I do not believe then that their parents and grand parents would be oppressors. An apple never falls too far from the tree. I have already rejected the Dharma Shastras as irrelevant today. By inference, any authorship of any of them that are against humanity are also diabolical and evil. My point is, please don't include me and my lineage to them.


This is the best part of any post on this thread sir. Thankyou.

Sir, Mudaliar, Chettiar, are not varna designations. For that matter, Aiyer and Aiyangar are not varna designations either. If one is a Vadagalai Srivaishnava like Raju or if one is a Smartha like yourself, how does either of you become a 'Brahmin' ?
I can not talk about Sri Raju Ji. As far as I am concerned, from the time I remember, my parents told me that we were Brahmins. When there was discrimination against some members of my family by the government, we were told that it was because we were Brahmins. I have already said that I am not a 'Brahmin' in the classical Varna sense. It is a cultural group for mr, to which I was born in to.


Sir, am not sure how can we claim there was a "system that started with idealism"? Please i request you to elaborate on it.
Because initially, as far as I know, it was not birth based. In that sense it was merit based, which is an idealistic system that tried to use the talents of everyone for the betterment of the society. Moving to a birth based system screwed it up.

Again sir in what way can we hope for "caste" to go away just because we live in a "free" country where casteism is supposedly illegal?
I can hope because I see it everyday in terms of social intercourse and thoughts with a lots of folks. Here in this Forum itself there are examples of folks who reject castes even though their parents' views were different. Over time, casteism will become anachronistic mainly because of the changes in social mores and advancement of technology. This is what I believe.

Sir, i have to ask this question, and please do not take offence. In a way this is directed to Shri TKS. Sir, are you born with brahmagnanam? Please i request you to see this question as an introspective one, not one in which one takes offence to the person asking the questions.

If one is born a brahmin, then possibly he does not need an upanayanam even. No brahmopadesam required, no need to invoke Savitr to enlighten the dhi / thots / mind. Because he is already born a Vipra who possibly knows even the upanishad byheart. Sir if yourself, Shri TKS, or if anyone is such, then i feel all hindus will most happily accept them as a brahmin by birth.

I have no idea what this brahmagnanam is. I am an average person, born in India with an average brain. I am not a believer in Purva Mimamsa rituals. I think that the 'classical' brahminism is dead for the most part. We all know the reasons.

I don't see how it can be alive when the whole system is gone. Yes, I judge a person by their conduct. I have no issues with calling anyone a Brahmin, if they exhibit a high degree of nobleness. There is no equivalent word in English. Nothing to do with caste, but everything to do with behavior and character.

Unfortunately, the orthodoxy interprets the Gita verses in a particular way. That is, that brahmins are by birth. Hence we are forced to accept that only brahmins (by birth) have sattva gunas. If so, then how come there are scounderals amongst those who claim to be brahmins by birth? Will that mean the orthodoxy is wrong? Or that the Gita is wrong? Or that the people who (ab)use the Gita to propagate their particualr views are wrong?
As I have said, I do not believe in Guna by birth theory, irrespective of what others say, because I don't see the evidence of it in real life. Let others believe what they want to believe. If they believe in the Guna theory by caste, I can only pity them, because they are overlooking the real world evidence.

Sir, who is "destroying" your heritage based on anything?
This was in response to those who associate the word 'Brahmin' to casteism automatically and want to eliminate the word.

Sir if your ancestors were anthanars, which in all probability the southindian priests were, then surely they are dignified and graceful priests and philosophers. But if they were the self-designated "brahmins" of the dharmashastras, then yes they were oppressors and heartless. Not just by present day mores, but by any standard of dignity they were oppressors and heartless. Unfortunately, the southindian priests want to be "aryan", "vedic brahmins", etc etc, and concentrated on building such an image of themselves during the colonial period, instead of concentrating on their anthanar heritage.
I can only speak for myself. As I have said, scoundrels are not the sole aspect of those who call themselves Brahmins. It is a property of mankind.

Unfortunately sir the word brahman represents 2 images -- one of a monk meditating and becoming one with brahman, and another of a dharmashastra oppressor. It really depends on the person in whom either image is evoked. If he is a 'shudra' labourer he unfortunately cannot accept that 'brahmanism' (labour laws) mostly represented the good.
Again, this is why the generalization, especially based on such a varied history of our culture is wrong. Branding everything under a banner as evil, without qualifying is not correct.


Regards.

Regards,
KRS