Who is delusional, really?

[sravna]

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Are there other places to learn too?

Dear Shri Narayan,

Of course you have Harvard, MIT, Stanford , Cornell and their likes.

 

[prasad1]

that needs a qualifier to make it real. - 'An adversary whose interest is to bring in the best out of you'.
If in a school, all that a teacher does is be critical with whatever you do, or whatever you come up with, no child is going to take steps to be better. At best, the child will become another adversary.

You are absolutely right, If you are critical all the time (we know from site), you stop being constructive. I question the motive of these people who, in the name of progress, criticize Brahmins, hinduism, India, Indians. They stopped being helpful, they are the shackle that keeps others from progressing.

 

[sarma-61]

It struck me suddenly when thinking of Prof.Nara's repeated categorization of believer's beliefs as having no firm basis and dismissing them are merely delusions, as strange and ironic that a believer in physical reality calls belief in spirituality as delusional. Let us see what it means for something to be delusional. Let us start with the case of a mirage. It is a physical illusion. It does not exist but it is perceived by all. But we eventually we come to know it doesn't exist and therefore an illusion. Instead we see the reality in its place. So when there is an illusion, there should also be a reality.

When Nara calls the believers as delusional, there are two possible scenarios given that there is an underlying reality:

1. The reality is not actually seen by the believers. Therefore they are indeed delusions.

2. The reality is not seen by the non believers. Therefore it is they who are delusional.

So one of them is delusional, otherwise it will be seen in the same way by all.

Also the illusion is seen first then comes the realization of reality. From the perspective of non believers , they should have the their illusion first which is belief in God and latter get the realization, shall I say just like Dr.Y

When you think of conversion of beleivers to non believers it is mainly out of negative expereinces, that is perception of the world moving away from the ideal to the diminished. But when you think of it further, reality cannot be diminished than the illusion. So IMO, the believers have a more plausible thesis than the non believers and the believers have a better reason to call the non believers delusional than vice versa.

Any thoughts, especially you Prof.Nara?

Shri sravna sir,

Your usual "kanTakassani" (i.e., my self ) has come back!

Those who think there is a "GOD" somewhere outside there, and so try to claim through this thread (although in a very subtle and tricky manner) that they are very advanced in their evolutionary journey than those who claim "there is no "GOD" ", as also the atheists/agnostics etc., are all highly delusional, really. And, I am not talking here of mAyA and advaitam.

GOD is within each one of us and also withing each animal, plant, moving, unmoving, item in this vast universe. It is our duty to ponder over and at least get near to this truth with our intellect. Thereafter only can we progress towards realizing IT.

Spending time to publicize one's theism and trying to claim evolutionary progress more than that of atheists, due to that, is also one of the six enemies to spiritual progress!

 

[biswa]

Ever heard of the story of the elephant and the blind men? Everybody​ is delusional. Everybody thinks they know the truth. However if they did, they would become the truth themselves...

 

[prasad1]

Kabir Das said:
"Jaise Til Mein Tel Hai, Jyon Chakmak Mein Aag
Tera Sayeen Tujh Mein Hai, Tu Jaag Sake To Jaag
Translation
Like the Oil is inside the Seed, Just as the Fire is Inside the Flint Stone
Your God is Inside You, If you have the Power to Wake Up, then Wake Up
Meaning
God is within, like the oil in the seed - wake up if you have the power to. "

"

14. Tera saai tujh me hai, jyu puhupan me baas.Kasturi ka mirag jyu, phiri-phiri DhunDhe ghaas.


Your Lord resides within you just like the fragrance is in the flowers. You keep running here and there madly for the Lord like the deer which has the musk in its novel yet, it knows it not and searches among grass for the source of the fragrance.


15. Ja kaaran jag DhunDhiya, so to ghaT hi maanhi.
Parada diya bharam ka, tate soojhe naahi.


The one for which you keep searching in the whole world, resides within your own body. He has given this veil of illusion that is why you see him not.


16. Samajhe to ghar me rahe, harasa palak lagaay.
Tera sahib tujh me hai, anat kahu mat jay.


If you understand it, you will stay in your own home and will not go outside to search him. Being ever joyful, keep your eyes closed and see him. Your Lord is within you; don’t go to any other place."
http://anahad-naad.blogspot.com/2011/05/kabirs-dohe-2.html​

 

[sarma-61]

Ever heard of the story of the elephant and the blind men? Everybody​ is delusional. Everybody thinks they know the truth. However if they did, they would become the truth themselves...

Shri Biswa sir,

If, for example, there was another blind man in that story who had been told by a person with eyesight and intelligence, as to what that animal (elephant) was, how it looked, etc., and this another blind man started telling the rest of the foolish crowd that they were making a gross mistake?

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sravana Sir,

Let me try to underestand your premise. So, if convenient, please clear my doubts:

Let us see what it means for something to be delusional.

Ok

Let us start with the case of a mirage. It is a physical illusion.

You started out with delusion. Here you are giving an explanation of illusion. Are both one and the same (i.e. delusion = illusion)

It does not exist but it is perceived by all. But we eventually we come to know it doesn't exist and therefore an illusion. Instead we see the reality in its place. So when there is an illusion, there should also be a reality.

Ok. But a few doubts here:

(a) Do we have illusions about ALL things initially, or only a few things. If we have illusion about a few things only, what are those things?

(b) You say on closer scrutiny we realise the REALITY which is something different from the initial ILLUSION. To understand that what we see for second time (i.e. after piercing through the illusion) is REALITY, we should also have seen the second REALITY before, is it not? If we cannot bench mark the now seen REALITY against something, then the second look which we take it as REALITY, could also be second Illusion, is it not?

When Nara calls the believers as delusional, there are two possible scenarios given that there is an underlying reality:

Once again you are switching back from illusion to delusion. So illusion = delusion, is it not?

Secondly you are now bringing in a new word an "underlying" reality. In the first case you suggested that illusion is different from reality, that is all. Now here you are saying there is a underlying reality beneath the illusion. So, as I understand you are mixing up at least two things:

(a) Mirage of water in a desert: Here water was never there, it was illusional
(b) Snake in the rope: Here rope appears as snake, it is misconception. But there a rope has necessarily to exist to give the misconception of a snake.

1. The reality is not actually seen by the believers. Therefore they are indeed delusions.

2. The reality is not seen by the non believers. Therefore it is they who are delusional.

So one of them is delusional, otherwise it will be seen in the same way by all.

This we will take up after the initial doubts of mine are cleared.

Also the illusion is seen first then comes the realization of reality.

This can be answered only on getting the answer to the question whether illusion occurs in all cases or in a few select cases only.

From the perspective of non believers , they should have the their illusion first which is belief in God and latter get the realization, shall I say just like Dr.Y

I really could not understand what you are trying to say. Any other re-phrased statement will be helpful.

When you think of conversion of beleivers to non believers it is mainly out of negative expereinces, that is perception of the world moving away from the ideal to the diminished.

This statement is a leap of faith. You have not at all stated how you arrived at the above conclusion.

But when you think of it further, reality cannot be diminished than the illusion.

Huh? When reality is something different from illusion, where is the question of illusion diminishing or expanding the reality?

So IMO, the believers have a more plausible thesis than the non believers and the believers have a better reason to call the non believers delusional than vice versa.

I do not see any logical statements preceding this conclusion.

Regards

 

[sravna]

Dr.Narayan said: Sri Sravana Sir,

Let me try to underestand your premise. So, if convenient, please clear my doubts:

Ok

You started out with delusion. Here you are giving an explanation of illusion. Are both one and the same (i.e. delusion = illusion)

Dear Shri Narayan,

I used the terms interchangeably but I prefer to use the term delusion when it comes to the mental aspect.

Ok. But a few doubts here:

(a) Do we have illusions about ALL things initially, or only a few things. If we have illusion about a few things only, what are those things?

It depends on how evolved our perception of reality is. The more evolved it is, the fewer illusions we have.

(b) You say on closer scrutiny we realise the REALITY which is something different from the initial ILLUSION. To understand that what we see for second time (i.e. after piercing through the illusion) is REALITY, we should also have seen the second REALITY before, is it not? If we cannot bench mark the now seen REALITY against something, then the second look which we take it as REALITY, could also be second Illusion, is it not?

IMO, you need not have seen the reality before. It just strikes you as real. Let us say the mind when totally evolved gets into sync with reality and realization of truth occurs.

Once again you are switching back from illusion to delusion. So illusion = delusion, is it not?

Secondly you are now bringing in a new word an "underlying" reality. In the first case you suggested that illusion is different from reality, that is all. Now here you are saying there is a underlying reality beneath the illusion. So, as I understand you are mixing up at least two things:

(a) Mirage of water in a desert: Here water was never there, it was illusional
(b) Snake in the rope: Here rope appears as snake, it is misconception. But there a rope has necessarily to exist to give the misconception of a snake.

Basically both are wrong perceptions of reality. Just as rope exists, the reality in the desert exists. And just as snake is not there, the water is not there.

This we will take up after the initial doubts of mine are cleared.

I will answer the other questions once we are through these.

 

[renuka]

It depends on how evolved our perception of reality is. The more evolved it is, the fewer illusions we have.

Dear Sravna,

Actually its very hard to even know that we are actually having an illusion.
An Illusion appears very very much "real" as long as our mind recognizes it as real.

I will give you a simple example..last week I was reading an article in the paper and I had no idea how come I misread the title "Dotcom not allowed to log" in as "Doctor not allowed to log in."

I continued reading the article thinking its about some doctor and after a while I realized thats it about Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom was granted bail and not allowed to log in the internet...then I looked back at the title and it didnt appear to me as Doctor anymore and it read to me as Dotcom.

As long as my mind thought it was Doctor it looked real to me and I was searching the article for any medical related stuff.

So as long the mind perceives it as reality..it remains a reality till the actual situation is realized.

I feel anyone can be subjected to illusions of various kinds.

In fact as far as I know its the spiritual person who is subjected to most illusions to cross over and come out of it.

The very thought of thinking that a spiritually advanced person is in a better off state then anyone else is the biggest illusion of all and can drag the individual down in his quest to realize Brahman cos thats still very much in duality.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Let us say I am not referring to spirituality. Even without that, my statement, "the more evolved your perception of reality, the fewer illusions you have", is it not based purely on logic?

Dear Sravna,

Actually its very hard to even know that we are actually having an illusion.
An Illusion appears very very much "real" as long as our mind recognizes it as real.

I will give you a simple example..last week I was reading an article in the paper and I had no idea how come I misread the title "Dotcom not allowed to log" in as "Doctor not allowed to log in."

I continued reading the article thinking its about some doctor and after a while I realized thats it about Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom was granted bail and not allowed to log in the internet...then I looked back at the title and it didnt appear to me as Doctor anymore and it read to me as Dotcom.

As long as my mind thought it was Doctor it looked real to me and I was searching the article for any medical related stuff.

So as long the mind perceives it as reality..it remains a reality till the actual situation is realized.

I feel anyone can be subjected to illusions of various kinds.

In fact as far as I know its the spiritual person who is subjected to most illusions to cross over and come out of it.

The very thought of thinking that a spiritually advanced person is in a better off state then anyone else is the biggest illusion of all and can drag the individual down in his quest to realize Brahman cos thats still very much in duality.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Let us say I am not referring to spirituality. Even without that, my statement, "the more evolved your perception of reality, the fewer illusions you have", is it not based purely on logic?

I beg to differ..Sravna what if an image falls on our blind spot while we are driving and we fail to see another car and becos of this we meet an accident?
So how does the more evolved perception of reality fit in?
Sometimes perception of reality also has physical limitations.

 

[C RAVI]

I beg to differ..Sravna what if an image falls on our blind spot while we are driving and we fail to see another car and becos of this we meet an accident?
So how does the more evolved perception of reality fit in?
Sometimes perception of reality also has physical limitations.

Dear Renuka,

I gues you coudn't understand the illusion/delusion Shri Sravna is talking about and mistaking them for general human errors in day to day life.

Please correct me, if I am wrong with my above understanding.



If the things are about ideas and anything related to thought process about something, in the quest of identifying the reality, it just depends on our level of evolved perception of reality.

In our world of Logic and reasoning with our rational brain, an error in recognition often due to mental block, mental preoccupation, negligance, ignorance, hasty self conclusion, factors disturbing recognistions/sight etc etc has nothing to do with the type of illusion/delution that Shri Sarvna is talking about.

To me, Shri Sravna's indications of illusion/delusion are all about to what extent you could percive the reality as per your evolution of perceptions of reality based on how soon you could distinguish illusion/delusion from the realities. The time taken for this process would vary from people to people based on their level of evolution, both in physical terms and spiritual terms.

Just as simple example let us consider there are two guys - "A" & "B". These two people are wandering in desert and are in dire need of water. "A" knows that there exists something called mirage of water in desert and exactly in which direction beyond certian limit there are possible sources of water. "B" may either don't know anything about such mirage in deserts or doesn't know where water can be found. "A" will be succeeding in reaching to the real water without much exhaustion compared to that of "B", as "B" would be exhausting himself more running towards the mirage each time he finds one.

I have presented the above analogy in the sense that, A mirage of water in dessert is not real and it is found to be real unless "A" could understand such existence of Mirage. Here "A's" perception of reality (having known the unreal stuff) is better than that of "B's". That is "A" has understood the unreality and could effectively reach towards the reality, having known where the reality could be found.

In spiritual sense, a person's level of perception is must to make possible attempts towards exploration of reality by which he would not be in delusion that spiritual energies does not exists at all.

Shri Sravna,

If I am totally wrong in my above observations or if my understanding is not completely aligning with your opinions/views, kindly make me stand corrected.

 

[sravna]

Exactly the point I was trying to make Ravi

 

[C RAVI]

Exactly the point I was trying to make Ravi

Thank you for your feedback Shri Sravna...

 

[biswa]

Shri Biswa sir,

If, for example, there was another blind man in that story who had been told by a person with eyesight and intelligence, as to what that animal (elephant) was, how it looked, etc., and this another blind man started telling the rest of the foolish crowd that they were making a gross mistake?

Mr Sarma sir,

This is a good discussion. I have a very scientific analogy for this. We are all trying to perceive "the truth" using various kinds of measuring instruments. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin (panchendriya) are nothing other than sense instruments. We form a certain impression about an entity using data coming from these instruments. However it is quite possible that we perceive not the whole, but only part of "the truth".

To come back to your point. The "seeing" man may think he is superior to the blind man, because he has a better idea of the shape of the elephant. On the other hand maybe the seeing man is hard of hearing or has his nostrils blocked by cold. In that case perhaps the blind man can justifiably claim that he knows better the pitch of the elephant's trumpeting or the peculiar smell of the elephant.

What I am coming down to is that just because we have a few sense organs working, to claim that nothing exists beyond our senses, is mostly arrogance.

 

[sarang]

So we must develop better, sensitive, sharp, broad spectrum transducers which can sense what is not seen, not heard, not felt, not understood. Our dharma and ancestors have given us some insight and tools to help us. Non believers can follow their incremental route and may eventually join the devout.

What I am coming down to is that just because we have a few sense organs working, to claim that nothing exists beyond our senses, is mostly arrogance.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I gues you coudn't understand the illusion/delusion Shri Sravna is talking about and mistaking them for general human errors in day to day life.

Please correct me, if I am wrong with my above understanding.



If the things are about ideas and anything related to thought process about something, in the quest of identifying the reality, it just depends on our level of evolved perception of reality.

In our world of Logic and reasoning with our rational brain, an error in recognition often due to mental block, mental preoccupation, negligance, ignorance, hasty self conclusion, factors disturbing recognistions/sight etc etc has nothing to do with the type of illusion/delution that Shri Sarvna is talking about.

To me, Shri Sravna's indications of illusion/delusion are all about to what extent you could percive the reality as per your evolution of perceptions of reality based on how soon you could distinguish illusion/delusion from the realities. The time taken for this process would vary from people to people based on their level of evolution, both in physical terms and spiritual terms.

Just as simple example let us consider there are two guys - "A" & "B". These two people are wandering in desert and are in dire need of water. "A" knows that there exists something called mirage of water in desert and exactly in which direction beyond certian limit there are possible sources of water. "B" may either don't know anything about such mirage in deserts or doesn't know where water can be found. "A" will be succeeding in reaching to the real water without much exhaustion compared to that of "B", as "B" would be exhausting himself more running towards the mirage each time he finds one.

I have presented the above analogy in the sense that, A mirage of water in dessert is not real and it is found to be real unless "A" could understand such existence of Mirage. Here "A's" perception of reality (having known the unreal stuff) is better than that of "B's". That is "A" has understood the unreality and could effectively reach towards the reality, having known where the reality could be found.

In spiritual sense, a person's level of perception is must to make possible attempts towards exploration of reality by which he would not be in delusion that spiritual energies does not exists at all.

Shri Sravna,

If I am totally wrong in my above observations or if my understanding is not completely aligning with your opinions/views, kindly make me stand corrected.

Dear Ravi,

I know what Sravna was trying to convey but everything in this world..gross or subtle is subject to change and hence unstable till we reach the state of Achala.

Even our blood pressure readings in the body changes with time of day and also with influence of external factors.

Even though I know the backdrop of our discussion is about spirituality yet I am not disconnecting the function of the gross body in the perception of reality here and I am giving a holistic view.

A so called evolved sense of perception does not mean that it is not subject to decline or external influences...as I said earlier everything is subject to Decay(Kshaya) till Delusion(Moha) is destroyed..Moha Kshaya=Moksha.

Coming to the desert and mirage analogy..under extreme circumstances where a person is sweating it out in a desert without water and loses electrolytes from body and reaches a state of hyponatremia(lack of sodium which can cause hallucinations) unless the person has acquired Yogic powers to induce a state of suspended animation where body metabolism and requirements are temporarily cut down or suspended even a camel will look like a woman to anyone.


Just to add.. Mr A cant be 100% sure that a mirage is a mirage till he reaches the spot and realizes it was just a mirage. He can be only 100% sure if he has been to that desert before and knows exactly where the water sources are.
If he hasnt been there before he stands almost the same chance of making mistakes as Mr B or even worse in the sense that becos of his so called feeling of developed perception he might actually miss out the chance to drink water thinking its a mirage.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

In addition to what Ravi said. let me say that that a more evolved state has fewer illuisons but I did not say no illusion. Comparatively, the former is in a better shape.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

In addition to what Ravi said. let me say that that a more evolved state has fewer illuisons but I did not say no illusion. Comparatively, the former is in a better shape.

Dear Sravna,

It's actually hard to generalize becos a person with a so called more evolved state might just lose it all in a moment of great temptation.Its like this..a so called lesser evolved person might have waves of imperfection from time to time in the shores of his mind but a so called higher evolved person might have no waves in the shores of his mind most of the while but in the moment of temptation have a Tsunami which destroys even his intellect.

Our Puranas have more than enough examples for this.

Furthermore I feel classification of people into lesser and more evolved is like entering into a dangerous zone becos it can breed superiority complex and thats the greatest enemy of men.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Again, it is comparative. If the evolved person has a chance of losing it all 1/100 times , that chances would be, say 1/10 for the one who is less evolved.

Renuka, there is no question of superiority complex here, as we are talking in general terms like what the term "evolved" implies.

Dear Sravna,

It's actually hard to generalize becos a person with a so called more evolved state might just lose it all in a moment of great temptation.
Our Puranas have more than enough examples for this.

Furthermore I feel classification of people into lesser and more evolved is like entering into a dangerous zone becos it can breed superiority complex and thats the greatest enemy of men.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Again, it is comparative. If the evolved person has a chance of losing it all 1/100 times , that chances would be, say 1/10 for the one who is less evolved.

Renuka, there is no question of superiority complex here, as we are talking in general terms like what the term "evolved" implies.

Dear Sravna,

I think I was editing my post when you were typing this reply..just see the analogy I had typed above.

 

[sravna]

Also an evolved person losing it all would imply that it is for him to learn a greater lesson than the person who loses it all quickly.
Renuka, I just saw your analogy. But my above reply answers that.

 

[biswa]

So we must develop better, sensitive, sharp, broad spectrum transducers which can sense what is not seen, not heard, not felt, not understood. Our dharma and ancestors have given us some insight and tools to help us. Non believers can follow their incremental route and may eventually join the devout.

Well said. However I think the enlightened ones do "feel something". Perhaps it is what Gautama Buddha felt sitting under the peepal tree in Sarnath. Just because the rest of us don't feel it readily, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. However I do believe many of us cutting across caste, religion, cultural background do feel it sometime in our life.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Actually technically we cannot "evolve"as in to gain but rather shed our Kleshas(afflictions of the mind) to gain.May be "shedding our Kleshas" would be a better terminology cos it doesnt use the duality of higher and lower in its definition.
according to Patanjali Yoga Sutras Kleshas are:

Avidya(Ignorance)
Asmita(Feeling of "I" ness/Ahamkara)
Raga(Attraction)
Dvesha(Hatred/Jealousy)
Abhinivesha(Clinging to life)

 

[biswa]

The duality of reality

Wanted to respond to Sravna ji's initial post about the underlying reality. No doubt something exists, but it may be beyond our ability to fathom fully. To give an example, take the case of an electron.

Most of us in grade school learned that the electron is a negatively charged particle spinning around a positively charged nucleus. But that turns out to be only the beginning of the story. Schroedinger and Heisenberg showed that the electron is not in in one point in space but smeared all over. So is that it? An electron is not a particle but merely a probability distribution of charge in space?

The truth as usual, is somewhere in between.