Who is delusional, really?

[sravna]

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Ok Sravna..from Orange and Apples lets discuss this:

Aparoksha Anubhuti of Adi Shankaracharya

Stanza 108/109

Who can describe That(i.e. Brahman) whence words turn away?(So silence is inevitable while describing Brahman).
Or if the phenomenal world were to be also described,even that is beyond words.
This, to give an alternate definition,may be also termed silence known among the sages as congenital.
The observance of silence by restraining speech, on the other hand, is ordained by the teachers of Brahman for the ignorant.

Dear Renuka,

Yes brahman is said to be indescribable. That is the reason it seems silence is taught. Silence is preferred to description and experiencing is preferred to thinking and reasoning.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Yes brahman is said to be indescribable. That is the reason it seems silence is taught. Silence is preferred to description and experiencing is preferred to thinking and reasoning.

Exactly!!

So if silence is preferred to description and experiencing is preferred to thinking/reasoning...so can we really describe an experience??

Not possible isn't it?

Isnt that why it is said that we can never know?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Realization is indeed experiencing. It has to be first hand and it doesn't imply just because the reality cannot be described, the reality is not known to such souls.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Y, you referring to yourself in the third person reminds me of Jimmy from Seinfeld.

The Jimmy - YouTube

Politicians often do this, Doll used to do it and more recently Herman Cain. This tendency even has a name, "Illeism", just found out today LOL!

BTW, with just the two of us left from the camp of free-thinkers the level of hostility has gone up off late, we are not allowed to even share a personal tender moment. Let it be, here I dedicate a song to you and your dear wife, in all its melodramatic sapiness: Andrea Boccelli *~*Besame Mucho*~* - YouTube, guess what Tamil song was copied from it.....

Cheers!

Dear N:

Yes, I like Jimmy in "Seinfeld". Very funny.

Yamaka doen't want to overdo this! LOL.

I wish all our friends come back and join us.

_______________________________

Thanks for the lovely song by Adrea Boccelli.... Very kind of you.

No, I don't know the Tamil song copied from it...

Regards.

Y

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Realization is indeed experiencing. It has to be first hand and it doesn't imply just because the reality cannot be described, the reality is not known to such souls.

I agree with what you have written but for us to even experience anything it still has to register in our mind(I dont mean Manas here),so as long that happens we still "dont know" isnt it?

Another question ..Knower of Brahman verily becomes Brahman.Brahman does not need to realize or experience anything isnt it?
So technically speaking can we ever realize Brahman?

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sravana Sir,

Thank you for your replies:

Me: You started out with delusion. Here you are giving an explanation of illusion. Are both one and the same (i.e. delusion = illusion)

Sravana :I used the terms interchangeably but I prefer to use the term delusion when it comes to the mental aspect.

Ok. I had a difficulty in equating both the terms, because illusion (like for example mirage in a desert) is agreed by everybody (including non-believers) but delusion is normally associated with mental concepts like believing non-existing things.

Me : (a) Do we have illusions about ALL things initially, or only a few things. If we have illusion about a few things only, what are those things?

Sravana: It depends on how evolved our perception of reality is. The more evolved it is, the fewer illusions we have.

Sir, I do not understand what you mean evolution of perception of reality here and so I do not get your answer.

For eg. A mirage in the desert is seen by everybody, irrespective of age, knowledge or back-ground of the knowledge like a scientist or philosopher or artist. Even after knowing and experience the mirage is projected out. The illusion just does not go away for anybody. Why does it happen?

Me:You say on closer scrutiny we realise the REALITY which is something different from the initial ILLUSION. To understand that what we see for second time (i.e. after piercing through the illusion) is REALITY, we should also have seen the second REALITY before, is it not? If we cannot bench mark the now seen REALITY against something, then the second look which we take it as REALITY, could also be second Illusion, is it not?

Sravana: IMO, you need not have seen the reality before. It just strikes you as real. Let us say the mind when totally evolved gets into sync with reality and realization of truth occurs

Sir, My doubt remains. How do I know that what struck me as "real" is indeed real?
How do I differentiate this with my earlier illusion or delusion? The realisation which I assume to be real could be a gut feeling, that's all. How do I know for sure? Do not I require any validations to confirm that I have realised the real?

Regards,

 

[sravna]

I agree with what you have written but for us to even experience anything it still has to register in our mind(I dont mean Manas here),so as long that happens we still "dont know" isnt it?

Good point. But knowing brahman implies mind dissolving in it.

Another question ..Knower of Brahman verily becomes Brahman.Brahman does not need to realize or experience anything isnt it?
So technically speaking can we ever realize Brahman?

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you elaboarate?

 

[renuka]

I agree with what you have written but for us to even experience anything it still has to register in our mind(I dont mean Manas here),so as long that happens we still "dont know" isnt it?

Good point. But knowing brahman implies mind dissolving in it.

Another question ..Knower of Brahman verily becomes Brahman.Brahman does not need to realize or experience anything isnt it?
So technically speaking can we ever realize Brahman?

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you elaboarate?

Come to think of it now I myself do not understand what I wrote!!LOL

Will get back soon.

 

[sarang]

India-pakistan analogy is relevant in most issues.
India - tambrams/ hindu theists; pakistan - atheists

1. Pakistan wants to destroy india; existence of pak is accepted and acknowledged by indians
2. pakistan has virtually got rid of hindu population by conversion, threat and fear; india has allowed muslims to live in tolerable peace and has allowed muslims to practice their religion and ways of life.
3. pak claims that kashmir is the problem and indo-pak ties will be normal if kashmir is ceded. Atheists believe brahmins are the problem, and all will live happily if brahmins are eliminated and scriptures are destroyed.
I can make a big list, but i will stop here. There can never be peace between india and pakistan despite confidence building measures, because the basic issue of religious tolerance of hindus and the explicit intolerance of the other side. Hindus and the subset tambrams want all to live and prosper, but atheists, christians and muslims want the whole world under their ideology, explicitly stated by the vatican and bin laden group.

The war against tambrams and sanatana dharma must be fought till the atheists and the converting religions change their mindset and restrict their activities to blowing their own trumpets and stop attacking others.

 

[renuka]

The war against tambrams and sanatana dharma must be fought till the atheists and the converting religions change their mindset and restrict their activities to blowing their own trumpets and stop attacking others.

Dear Sarang,

I am confused here..isnt everything finally Sanathana Dharma only?
Tambrams,Atheist and other converting religions are subsets of Sanathana Dharma only.

I guess there can only be a war between two or more groups of differing ideology.
No one can actually wage a war againts Dharma which is ever Sanathana.

 

[sravna]

Shri.Narayan said:

Sir, I do not understand what you mean evolution of perception of reality here and so I do not get your answer.

For eg. A mirage in the desert is seen by everybody, irrespective of age, knowledge or back-ground of the knowledge like a scientist or philosopher or artist. Even after knowing and experience the mirage is projected out. The illusion just does not go away for anybody. Why does it happen?

Shri Narayan,

All are equals as regards perception of physical reality is concerned. What I was referring to was the mental perception. The perception of some are closer to reality than those of others.

Sir, My doubt remains. How do I know that what struck me as "real" is indeed real?
How do I differentiate this with my earlier illusion or delusion? The realisation which I assume to be real could be a gut feeling, that's all. How do I know for sure? Do not I require any validations to confirm that I have realised the real?

When you have realized the real, you see everything coherently, the whole strikes you. If brahman is the ultimate consciousness and reality, IMO it sure has a way to say that it has been realized.

Regards,

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sravana Sir, - your msg # 86.

I am not a doctor of any category. I am not a proper recipient of such a salutation. Please edit the same, if it is not inconvenient.

Regards.

 

[sravna]

Sri Sravana Sir, - your msg # 86.

I am not a doctor of any category. I am not a proper recipient of such a salutation. Please edit the same, if it is not inconvenient.

Regards.

Sorry Shri Narayan Have edited it.

 

[ozone]

India-pakistan analogy is relevant in most issues.
India - tambrams/ hindu theists; pakistan - atheists

1. Pakistan wants to destroy india; existence of pak is accepted and acknowledged by indians
2. pakistan has virtually got rid of hindu population by conversion, threat and fear; india has allowed muslims to live in tolerable peace and has allowed muslims to practice their religion and ways of life.
3. pak claims that kashmir is the problem and indo-pak ties will be normal if kashmir is ceded. Atheists believe brahmins are the problem, and all will live happily if brahmins are eliminated and scriptures are destroyed.
I can make a big list, but i will stop here. There can never be peace between india and pakistan despite confidence building measures, because the basic issue of religious tolerance of hindus and the explicit intolerance of the other side. Hindus and the subset tambrams want all to live and prosper, but atheists, christians and muslims want the whole world under their ideology, explicitly stated by the vatican and bin laden group.

The war against tambrams and sanatana dharma must be fought till the atheists and the converting religions change their mindset and restrict their activities to blowing their own trumpets and stop attacking others.

Dear Sri Sarang,
I feel you might be seeing more than needed fear and giving more than needed importance to these aberrations.
The situation you describe about India and Pak is real, but do not extend that to the atheist group and lower your confidence and fear that they are a force to be reckoned. What they do is make noise and irritate us and stall us from making progress here. Do not mistake that to be a call into their land with promises of bliss. They cannot trumpet anything, because they live on borrowed trumpets and our trumpets have been tuned to only sing our scriptures !!!

 

[renuka]

Sorry Shri Narayan Have edited it.

Sravna dear..so what say you? was it an illusion or a delusion??LOL

 

[sravna]

When you, I, Shri.Narayan and all are ourselves illusions why bother about that?

 

[renuka]

When you, I, Shri.Narayan and all are ourselves illusions why bother about that?

dear Sravna,

have you seen or read about the Hindi movie Karthik calling Karthik?

Sravna..since all of us are illusions here so its Brahman calling Brahman here!!!LOL

 

[sarma-61]

India-pakistan analogy is relevant in most issues.
India - tambrams/ hindu theists; pakistan - atheists

1. Pakistan wants to destroy india; existence of pak is accepted and acknowledged by indians
2. pakistan has virtually got rid of hindu population by conversion, threat and fear; india has allowed muslims to live in tolerable peace and has allowed muslims to practice their religion and ways of life.
3. pak claims that kashmir is the problem and indo-pak ties will be normal if kashmir is ceded. Atheists believe brahmins are the problem, and all will live happily if brahmins are eliminated and scriptures are destroyed.
I can make a big list, but i will stop here. There can never be peace between india and pakistan despite confidence building measures, because the basic issue of religious tolerance of hindus and the explicit intolerance of the other side. Hindus and the subset tambrams want all to live and prosper, but atheists, christians and muslims want the whole world under their ideology, explicitly stated by the vatican and bin laden group.

The war against tambrams and sanatana dharma must be fought till the atheists and the converting religions change their mindset and restrict their activities to blowing their own trumpets and stop attacking others.

Shri sarang sir,

Pakistan is very much a theistic country but their theism is Islam. Do you consider all religions other than the Hindu as atheist?

 

[ozone]

Shri sarang sir,

Pakistan is very much a theistic country but their theism is Islam. Do you consider all religions other than the Hindu as atheist?

I think the dispute between Theist and Atheist was a comparison against the dispute between India and Pakistan; not to be mistaken as India is Theist and Pakistan is otherwise.

 

[prasad1]

From Wikipedia:
Delusion:
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence. Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.

A delusion is a deeply held false belief that is maintained – even when other information contradicts the belief.

In their extreme form, delusions and hallucinations are symptoms of people who are psychotic – they cannot clearly distinguish what is real from what is not. With psychotic disorders, hallucinations are most frequently auditory – like hearing voices.
Delusions of grandeur are mistaken beliefs that you are better than others. If others are trying to get you fired, it is because they are jealous of your "special talents." Delusions of reference include mistaken beliefs that innocent events relate especially to you. When other workers are talking, they are talking about you. Even television newscasters could be talking specifically about you – or to you.
There are atheist who are modest and sensible, and understand that they are free to practice what they want. There are some aggressive militant atheist who want to convert the world.


Illusion:
An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. While illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people. Illusions may occur with more of the human senses than vision, but visual illusions, optical illusions, are the most well-known and understood. The emphasis on visual illusions occurs because vision often dominates the other senses. For example, individuals watching a ventriloquist will perceive the voice is coming from the dummy since they are able to see the dummy mouth the words. Some illusions are based on general assumptions the brain makes during perception.
An illusion is a misleading perception, usually visual. You see something, but you consistently misjudge its length, shape, motion or direction.


Brahman is neither delusion or Illusion, by definition Brahman is beyond any sensory perception.
In Hinduism, Brahman is the one supreme, universal Spirit that is the origin and support of the phenomenal universe. The sages of the Upanishads teach that Brahman is the ultimate essence of material phenomena (including the original identity of the human self) that cannot be seen or heard but whose nature can be known through the doctrine of self-knowledge . According to Advaita, a liberated human being (jivanmukta) has realised Brahman as his or her own true self (see atman).
The Mundaka Upanishad says:
Auṃ - That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. If you subtract the infinite from the infinite, the infinite remains alone.

 

[Nara]

No, I don't know the Tamil song copied from it...

Here it is: Anubavam Puthumai - YouTube, tune lifted from Besame

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Here it is: Anubavam Puthumai - YouTube, tune lifted from Besame

Cheers!

Dear N:

Thanks.

Interesting to know that MSV lifted the tune in 1964 from Besame! It appears that the lyric (Kiss Me A Lot) was written in 1940 by a Spanish Mexican woman who was not kissed before she wrote it!

The first tune was made in 1951.

Listening to Andrea singing is heavenly!

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

Regarding the original question, I think: The person who thinks he/she knows it all, is truly delusional.

 

[Yamaka]

"There are atheist who are modest and sensible, and understand that they are free to practice what they want. There are some aggressive militant atheist who want to convert the world."

Yes.. for the better!

To banish poverty and ignorance among India91%, Haiti, Africa, Central and South America etc.!!

Is that not good for India and the world?

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Regarding the original question, I think: The person who thinks he/she knows it all, is truly delusional.

Who said "I know it ALL"? Everyone says, "Kattrathu Kai Mann Alavu... Kallathathu Ulagalavu!"

Define "delusional", please.

Cheers.