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Wikipedia article about Kerala Iyers

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Why is every discussion is about caste in this site. The tread had nothing to do caste-ism, it was about anthropology, and migration, and ingenuity of a group of people who happened to be Iyers. They did not use to suppress others, they overcame their adversity, and survived. It was historical fact.
As post #41 says, it was good information.:focus:

Why drag through mud, just because you have glass of 'caste' that you see the world.

Yes. This is what happens in this forum. The same old parties posting their same old theories many of them openly anti-Brahmin. If they have so much contempt for everything Brahmin why do they post here. They are obsessed with anti-brahminism. It is all clothed in so many terms.
 
Here we have to bear in mind one aspect. Even when the nairs' system of "sambandham" and marumakkathaayam were in operation, the Namboothiris followed makkaL thaayam as per Hindu Dharma Saastras. Perhaps the misuse of the Sambandham system had much to do with the Namboothiris' eagerness to limit their descendents to the eldest son's eldest son and so on, so that the landed estates were saved from fragmentation. Thus the Sambandham system ideally fitted with the Namboothiri system like the DNA-RNA combine. Is it not, then, justified that the பார்ப்பான் is blamed for this?)
Sir please can you explain the makkal thayam system?

I may agree that the namboodiris wanted to limit their lands to the heir-apparent (that is, the eldest son); since fragmentation of land would caused disintegration of social power due to possible sibling rivalry. Am convinced the Nambis / Namboodiris are the most brilliant of all brahmins.

Please could you also write about your views on the sambandham system - ie, since when was it present, etc.

Me thinks the nairs actually represent matriarchy as it existed in some ancient societies where the clan mothers could possibly become clan goddeses if they fought to save their children from invaders or intruders. Though many social groups are now patrilineal, i feel, the matrilineal system was very widely prevelant once upon a time. The fact that many social groups have Godesses as kula-devis may be an indicator for this. We come across groups following Stri-rajyam in Harivamsha. It is quite possible the nayaras followed a matriarchial system for a long time, but the system got misued by the namboodiris to serve their own benefits.
 
கால பைரவன்;99997 said:
HH, According to you, when did this chola/aryan invasion happen? As you know, tamil kingdom changed hands between many different rulers over the past two thousand years. The choza era is divided into many periods. Which period are you referring to?
Not just many periods, they also ruled different parts in different periods of time. I wud say this 'invasion' happened around the time the Vishnukundinas also rose to power, that is, around 4th century AD.

If this thread is still open we can discuss the hows and whys. For now i shall stop posting in this thread.
 
KB said:
In ancient tamil literature, several references to words such as பால், குடி, குலம், மேலோர், கீழோர் can be seen. What did these classifications refer to?
IMO, it would depend on the time period or kingdom in which the words were used; as the said social classifications would be relevant to that time-period / kingdom. Those interested could refer to this website for various time periods -- A Chronological Listing of Tamil Literature /Part I (...BC - 17th C. AD)

A புறநானூற்றுப் பாடல் goes like this:

வேற்றுமை தெரிந்த நாற்பால் உள்ளும், கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின், மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே

What does the term "பால்" refer to here? What does நாற்பால் mean? Why some are referred as கீழ்ப்பால் and some as மேற்பால்?
 
கால பைரவன்;100009 said:
A புறநானூற்றுப் பாடல் goes like this:

வேற்றுமை தெரிந்த நாற்பால் உள்ளும், கீழ்ப்பால் ஒருவன் கற்பின், மேற்பால் ஒருவனும் அவன்கண் படுமே

What does the term "பால்" refer to here? What does நாற்பால் mean? Why some are referred as கீழ்ப்பால் and some as மேற்பால்?
KB, its a good idea to take this discussion to an other thread. The thread starter wants this thread closed. In case we are not going to be discussing on an other thread, here is what i think in brief -- the puRanNAnURu being sangam period literature probably refers to social classification around 100 AD. IMO various groups moved down south due to the presence of Kushan empire in the north during this time. The Kushan Skanda became Murugan of the south IMO. This is an interesting point. Hope we can take it to a new thread and continue more on it.

Prasad1, Please refer to Kathleen Gough's records. The pallans were slaves to iyers in the colonial period. Its not known since when. Your claim that they did not supress people has no historical backing. Am not interested in arguing whether this is pro-brahmanism or anti-brahmanism. If there is historical backing i will talk about it. That's all. Since you say back to topic, i shall abide.

KB, please take the purananuru discussion to another thread.
 
I would request Sri. Praveen to close this thread.

if you want a quick response, please private msg him. with so many threads open, i am not sure, if praveen has the time or patience, to monitor each one.

if you dont mind, and maybe praveen would be curious too, as to why you wish this thread to be closed.

thank you.
 
This thread was closed on request. But after more requests from esteemed members and further review, this thread has been opened.

Please note, the issues/disputes raised in and by Wikipedia are totally different and as such should not be used for debate. If one does not agree with Wikipedia dispute reasons, please take it up with Wikipedia and not here and def not against any member who does not share your views.

Thanks.
 
This is by way of offering clarification, sorry for the diversion ...

கால பைரவன்;99988 said:
....It is not that I enjoy writing like this, but I am not averse to giving back the abuses hurled by the brabas group.
The post you have cited was directly addressed to you, in other words, right or wrong, it was a precision munition. Instead of taking it up with him you are resorting to carpet bombing, bashing everyone who express views you don't agree with. This general indiscriminate name-calling is what I am requesting you to stop doing.

Yes. This is what happens in this forum. The same old parties posting their same old theories many of them openly anti-Brahmin. If they have so much contempt for everything Brahmin why do they post here. They are obsessed with anti-brahminism. It is all clothed in so many terms.
N, please note, it was the bashers of the so called BB who initiate this downward spiraling of serious discussions nearly all the time. In this thread, as far as I can see, it was KB who started throwing mud.

Also, I reject the notion that criticizing Brahminism is anti-Brahmin, open or covert. Let us stick to the topic, let us have a dialog, let it not be a one-way lecture of sorts. If you don't like a dialog, that is fine too, but, please do not make general accusations like the above, such comments tend to result in ill-feelings.

Cheers!
 
HH,
I was reading through the thread, I thought he wanted to show the migration of Iyers to kerela. The thread had nothing to do with Brahmin or Iyer domination. It might have been incidental. I am interested in the movement of a group and the migration pattern.

Is it so difficult to read our history and not judge it with today's value? Just stick to facts.
 
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May I know why the Brahmins in Palghat, popularly known as 'Palakkad Brahmins', regardless of mother tongue, be it Malayalam or Tamil, are not considered as one among them by either Brahmins in other parts of Kerala or Brahmins in Tamil Nadu!! Its an exclamation and not an interrogation. They seem to be unique. The Palakkad Brahmins mingle neither with other Brahmins in Kerala nor with Brahmins in Tamil Nadu. This exclusivity is conspicuous especially in Cosmopolitan cities viz Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Delhi etc. Do the Palakkad Brahmins follow different scriptures, different rituals etc? Could someone enlighten me on this fact please?

Thanks.
Iyer

i will re print the originator's initial post. i think we can add more info to his query. thank you.
 
This thread was closed on request. But after more requests from esteemed members and further review, this thread has been opened.

Please note, the issues/disputes raised in and by Wikipedia are totally different and as such should not be used for debate. If one does not agree with Wikipedia dispute reasons, please take it up with Wikipedia and not here and def not against any member who does not share your views.

Thanks.

Warning noted. I never wanted a debate on the issues raised in Wikipedia. Since I myself could not help the user In Wikipedia, I thought some members from this forum would post there. Of course it never happened.

I have noted your warning. The last thread the I would be starting in this forum is here.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/religion/7331-devi-mahatmyam.html

I request you to wait till Vijayadhasami when I would be posting my last post in the above thread and the forum.

Thank You.
 
HH,
I was reading through the thread, I thought he wanted to show the migration of Iyers to kerela. The thread had nothing to do with Brahmin or Iyer domination. It might have been incidental. I am interested in the movement of a group and the migration pattern.
Until post # 15 all discussions were on track. From post # 16 of Rishikesan, the discussions went off track. Moreover it was not just me, but others also, including KB who brought up the tharavad issue on this thread, who took part in off track discussions. So its not a good idea to target only me specifically.

Frankly, i don't see what is the problem if discussions have spin-offs. There are many threads in which spin-off-discussions took place on the same thread alongside the main issue. But if the thread starter protests, alright, we can always take the discussion to an other thread. I will abide with that.

Is it so difficult to read our history and not judge it with today's value? Just stick to facts.
I beleive i am sticking to facts. Thanks.
 
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N, please note, it was the bashers of the so called BB who initiate this downward spiraling of serious discussions nearly all the time. In this thread, as far as I can see, it was KB who started throwing mud.

This is what happened in this thread.

Member Rishikeshan asked a query about Naayar/ Namboothiris. Kunjuppu replied with an explanation. I referred to a book that throws new light into this issue. In between there are posts from Brabas group, all invariably trying to blame only brahmins. One can see this trend in all Brabas posts. What is considered throwing mud? Propagating fraudulent theories that there were only brahmins and shudras IS throwing mud on brahmins. It is being done by Brabas. I write against it. That is all!
 
Sir please can you explain the makkal thayam system?

Smt HH,

makkaL thAyam is our normal inheritance of children. This differs from marumakkaL thAyam (inheritance by nephews and nieces). Hope it is clear now.

I may agree that the namboodiris wanted to limit their lands to the heir-apparent (that is, the eldest son); since fragmentation of land would caused disintegration of social power due to possible sibling rivalry. Am convinced the Nambis / Namboodiris are the most brilliant of all brahmins.

I do not think fragmentation of landed estates would have adversely affected the social power or social standing of the Namboothiris because the entire polity of those days firmly believed that Parasurama had regained the entire Kerala for the Namboothiris only and the various other castes were there just to facilitate the comfortable life of those Namboothiris. (As an aside, the only possible murmur might have been from the new influx viz., the Pattars, with the same cross-belts, pigtails in front (for some) and back (for the rest), claiming to be adepts at the very same palaver of the vedas (the Pattars' veda recital is like AK-47 firing whereas the Namboothiris do it more slowly and a bit more musically, imho.), and knowledge of Sanskrit, obsession with "shuddham" etc., etc.) No wonder why the Namboothiris lost no opportunity to put down the Iyers as "Paradeshi Brahmans".

But the Namboothiris were IMO too clever by half. Due to their own system of eldest son alone taking a namboothiri wife, the rest grazing on women of all other castes, etc., the Namboothiris passed on their DNA (and haplogroup R1A1 also, probably) to the vast multitude of people in Kerala. So when in 1813 or so the Regent Rani widened the educational facilities, all other castes took to education luck ducks to water and this eventually gave rise to communism and a demand for egalitarianism. The Namboothiris (and hence the much less powerful Pattars) were quick to perceive the public sentiment and quietly yield to democratic norms as and when these came. In Madras Presidency the Tabras resisted the Justice Party and the FC activists till the last drop of blood so to say and then, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall, the bruises from which are still not completely cured, I will think.

Please could you also write about your views on the sambandham system - ie, since when was it present, etc.
There are not sufficient research work on these. The nairs are supposed to be Nagas according to one section of scholars. Curiously the Assamese and many other tribes of NE India followed matriarchy till modern times. There is even a section of paleogeological opinion that one piece of land moving in pangaia towards the NE split into two, one got attached to the western coast of the subcontinent while the other moved through the Bay of Bengal and hit the Burmese west coast of those prehistoric times. Australoid connections are also proposed because of the sanctity attached to panleaf, the habit of chewing panleaf and areca nut, etc. Guwa hati means "areca (guwa) market (hati)".

Sambandham was essentially matriliny itself. But instead of socially accepted and approved single male partner, the nair women enjoyed freedom to choose their male partners. Inheritance was from the maternal uncle to the nephews (who, I was told, did the cremation of the uncle and also the annual sraaddha - unlike what is given in the Tamizh extract furnished by Shri KB, but sons doing these might also have been in practice.) and nieces, but the nairs also took a leaf out of the Namboothiris' books and ensured that their landed property did not disintegrate and followed the joint family system under the Kartha-ship of one male kAraNavar, his (usually, younger) brothers, sisters, their offsprings, the offsprings' children and so on.

So, while the Namboothiris had their male unmarried sons and grandsons on the one side, the aristocratic Nair tarawads had their many women with freedom to mate with anyone who pleased them. I feel this ought to have been a grand design of the Namboothiris. Otherwise the nairs would have practised matriliny like the rural folks in Thailand.

Me thinks the nairs actually represent matriarchy as it existed in some ancient societies where the clan mothers could possibly become clan goddeses if they fought to save their children from invaders or intruders. Though many social groups are now patrilineal, i feel, the matrilineal system was very widely prevelant once upon a time. The fact that many social groups have Godesses as kula-devis may be an indicator for this. We come across groups following Stri-rajyam in Harivamsha. It is quite possible the nayaras followed a matriarchial system for a long time, but the system got misued by the namboodiris to serve their own benefits.

The origin of matriliny/matriarchy is shrouded in the mist of history. One view which I read years ago (so i don't recollect details) and which sort of seemed convincing to me (and still is) that menstruation was an enigma for the primitive man since his common experience of bloodshed was invariably associated with weapons, wounds, pain and, at most times, death. So, the primitive man in his ignorance came to look upon the female (and more especially the external genitals of the female) as something profoundly mysterious and therefore something to be looked upon with awe. The importance of woman, matriliny, matriarchy, etc., rose from this awe.

The beginning of Tantra, Saktism, etc., emanate from this unresolved primitive enigma, even though several layers of learned coverings and interpretations have been furnished subsequently to raise Tantrism to the level of vedic hinduism of the ancient Rishis. Kula concept is intrinsic to the Tantric worshippers and the word denotes a school or clan of Tantric worshippers, a certain brand of Tantrism, in short. I do not subscribe to matriliny/matriarchy giving rise to kula devis and so on, because even while the primitive man entertained certain amount of awe in respect of the female genitalia, he had no inhibition, possibly, in giving vent ti his sexual desires.
 
கால பைரவன்;100107 said:
Propagating fraudulent theories that there were only brahmins and shudras IS throwing mud on brahmins.
Correction please -- Brahmins themselves put forth the theory through Puranas that there are only 2 classes in kaliyuga -- brahmins and shudras. This became a political issue when the Chitpavans sought to downgrade the Kayastha-Prabhus to the Shudra status in 1830.
 
The post you have cited was directly addressed to you, in other words, right or wrong, it was a precision munition. Instead of taking it up with him you are resorting to carpet bombing, bashing everyone who express views you don't agree with. This general indiscriminate name-calling is what I am requesting you to stop doing.

So calling people names addressing them is okay. It is not right, otherwise? Why?

This does not seem to be discussing a matter on principle. This is nothing but சப்பக்கட்டு and சால்ஜாப்பு.

As I have said, I have nothing personal against any member here. I write only against their views. Hence, I am inclined to use brabas group, which comes from the views expressed by the group.
 
கால பைரவன்;100107 said:
...Member Rishikeshan asked a query about Naayar/ Namboothiris. Kunjuppu replied with an explanation. I referred to a book that throws new light into this issue.
KB, up to this is fine, K says X and you counter with a book you think is valid, all this is what dialog is about. But then you allow your emotions to get the better of you and start making comments about motives like vested interests, etc. I believe the discussion was going fine and you were the first one to make such comments in this thread here.

"Those who try to paint a false picture, with vested interests, ....
"

Such comments are almost always the starting point of downward spiral. The irony is, the bashers of so called BB, adding insult to injury, make the bold faced claim that it is the so called BB who are guilty of derailing the discussion into B bashing.

KB, I have no problem with spirited discussion, and as I have said many times, I welcome it. I am also aware I am impotent to make you see why we need to avoid making unnecessary personal comments like the above. All I can do is to request you to avoid them, the rest is up to you.

Cheers!
 
This became a political issue when the Chitpavans sought to downgrade the Kayastha-Prabhus to the Shudra status in 1830.

Claiming that only brahmins went to court to assign shudra varna to others is a canard. In TN, when the SAnROr kulam people (present day Nadars) sought temply entry to Thiruchendur in 1872, it is the vellala caste people who fought against it by calling them Shudras. Support to SAnROr kulam people came from brahmins. Like wise in 1899, support to Nadars came from chidambaram Dikshithars. Anyone can selectively quote history to propagate their pet beliefs and ideas but truth has a way to come out.
 
கால பைரவன்;100118 said:
Claiming that only brahmins went to court to assign shudra varna to others is a canard. In TN, when the SAnROr kulam people (present day Nadars) sought temply entry to Thiruchendur in 1872, it is the vellala caste people who fought against it by calling them Shudras. Support to SAnROr kulam people came from brahmins. Like wise in 1899, support to Nadars came from chidambaram Dikshithars. Anyone can selectively quote history to propagate their pet beliefs and ideas but truth has a way to come out.
KB,

The support to Nadars came from the temple priests. Time and again the generic term brahmin is misused. The temple priests themselves were ranked low in the dharmashastras (smrithis). The final call has always been that of the Smarthas.

The Nadar case is no different from the Komatis who got support from the Vaidikis. But the Niyogis called them unread in dharmashastras. Which is true (except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis).

You must be aware that by the 20th century the Nadars were no longer listed as Kshatriyas, a position which they were able to get for a short-while because temple-priests like dikshitas testified in court. The whole point is that the Smartas ruined things everywhere.

Whatever goodwill the temple priests had earned for the generic term 'brahmin' was all flushed out by the politically strong smarta shastris who testified varnas in courts.

But its a funny world really. The telugu niyogis, tamil smarthas, konkani chitpavans, and every such Smartha community would have never imagined an era of information boom where their own origins are dug into and questioned.

A 1000 years back, these smarthas did not even have mutt-affiliations. If they had given up the urge / role of assigning varnas in the colonial period, still things could have been okay. Looks like they believed they were invincible.

But the foolish ones were temple-priests (like adi saivas / gurukkals) who in the search for a higher social standing started claiming to be smartha brahmins in the colonial period. Probably they never realised what they were bargaining for.

Frankly, no one wud bother about colonial period. If not for reservations. The only thing smarthas are against is reservations. So far in this forum also no one (except so-called brahmin-bashers) acknowledged what the colonial shastris did was improper and unsuited for the times.

Till date smartas continue to use the word Shudra. The impunity factor comes in because they know very well the word Shudra means slave. Its like implying that in kaliyuga there are ony 2 classes -- brahmin lords with everyone else as their slaves. How kind of them.

Am not really surprised Maharastra was one of the earliest places where anti-brahminism movement started. The Kayasthas, Prabhus and others well versed in sanskrit must have known what the term shudra meant.

This is a nice paper on the Chitpavans's role in preventing the goldsmiths from claiming brahmin position and prabhus from claiming kayastha position. What an irony to think that their subsequent inter-mingling could not be prevented.

The unfortunate part is that the temple-priests paid and still pay the price for the follies of the smarthas.

Btw, not just Vellalars, the Nadars faced arson, assault and murder from the Maravars, Nayars and Kallars (thevars). In this thread itself we have noted how nadar women had to suffer indignity for not being allowed to cover their upper body.

However, the point to note is that the Vellalars did not create varnas and brahmanical hierachies themselves. The Vellalars were just harem loyalists of brahmins still following the age old brahmanical loyalty of subjugating nadars and various untouchables.

Ofcourse for these rajaputras, their own social position depended on such subjugation afterall. If their brahmin benefactors ('fathers') no longer have a shudra class (to lord upon), how could they remain brahmins and kshatriyas respectively. Same goes for the Nayars and Maravars.

The Maravars were just bandits (IMO), but they were considered 'Kshatriyas' because they lived off arms (in my view all 'kshatriyas' are merely bandits). I have written about marava warlike bands here.

The job of these maravas was to show off their social power by swooping down on hapless villagers and disappearing with crops, girls, cattle. Funnily the brahmins (new pana bards / vedic brahmins) legitamized the rule of these marava chieftains by singing their glories.

The Kallars were similar in their 'bandit' role, though i suspect they became bandits by force of circumstances (perhaps on being evicted from the lands they cultivated; since a section of them were slaves. Notably, all kallars in all places are not a homogeneous group).

The kallars styled themselves 'thevars' in later times, but ofcourse they were / are different from the thevars of the ancient period who were brahmanical and a different class.

The Nadars were ranked just above untouchables in the colonial period. But socially they were considered not just untouchables, but also unseeables. Do find out why.

The nadars claim a section of them, the nelamaikarars, were tax-collectors in the nayak period and earlier. However, imo the Nelamaikarars were also toddy-taping shanars originally, who just happened to arise in position to serve as the local tax-collectors (for their own areas). The origins of their 'aristocracy' however is shrouded in mystery -- anyways, since they too were associated with the ritually polluting shanars, their social position was also considered low.

Am quite convinced that the Sanrors or Shanars simply reinvented themselves with the term, Nadar. Just like Komatis reinvented themselves with the high sounding name "arya vaishyas".

Personally, i do think the Shanars had links with the Pandyas and Pallavas. IMO they were subjugated by the Cholas. And from there on they were kept low on a social scale.

Its a twist of fate, to think that the ancient priests of Shanar-Sanrors; ie, the munkudumi dikshits / pandi temple priests, came to their rescue in the colonial period. Alas, everyone was thwarted by the dicates of the Smarthas.
 
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KB,

The support to Nadars came from the temple priests. Time and again the generic term brahmin is misused. The temple priests themselves were ranked low in the dharmashastras (smrithis). The final call has always been that of the Smarthas.

Misused by whom?

When HH writes here that only two categories of people existed, the brahmins and shudras, isn't she generalizing?

According to HH, it is okay to generalize for the purpose of demonizing brahmins but it is wrong to generalize otherwise.

The rest of the post has several inaccurate accounts. Will try to deal with them later.

HH does not realize that the verse from புறநானூறு that showed the existence of four groups contradicts her claim that there were only brahmins and shudras. The very basis on which she is carefully constructing false theories is found to be ill-conceived.
But the crucial point is this:

The Vellalars were just harem loyalists of brahmins still following the age old brahmanical loyalty of subjugating nadars and various untouchables.

This canard, that the dominant non-brahmin castes were/are mere pawns in the hands of brahmins, is being repeated again and again in this forum. It is being done primarily with the motivation of blaming brahmins and brahmins alone for the social stratification that prevailed and that prevails in our society. This is similar to the strategy adopted by the TN political parties. This is a nice escape route for all the non-brahmin castes who indulge in oppressive practices. Their aim is to exonerate themselves from all the oppression they carried out and/or to justify any and all discrimination against brahmins of today. And by doing so, they are able to happily subjugate "lower" castes until this day. The pity is there is a group here in this forum to toe this line and swallow these lies hook, line and sinker. But it won't fly with all people.
 
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KB,

The support to Nadars came from the temple priests. Time and again the generic term brahmin is misused. The temple priests themselves were ranked low in the dharmashastras (smrithis). The final call has always been that of the Smarthas.

The Nadar case is no different from the Komatis who got support from the Vaidikis. But the Niyogis called them unread in dharmashastras. Which is true (except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis).

You must be aware that by the 20th century the Nadars were no longer listed as Kshatriyas, a position which they were able to get for a short-while because temple-priests like dikshitas testified in court. The whole point is that the Smartas ruined things everywhere.

Whatever goodwill the temple priests had earned for the generic term 'brahmin' was all flushed out by the politically strong smarta shastris who testified varnas in courts.

But its a funny world really. The telugu niyogis, tamil smarthas, konkani chitpavans, and every such Smartha community would have never imagined an era of information boom where their own origins are dug into and questioned.

A 1000 years back, these smarthas did not even have mutt-affiliations. If they had given up the urge / role of assigning varnas in the colonial period, still things could have been okay. Looks like they believed they were invincible.

But the foolish ones were temple-priests (like adi saivas / gurukkals) who in the search for a higher social standing started claiming to be smartha brahmins in the colonial period. Probably they never realised what they were bargaining for.

Frankly, no one wud bother about colonial period. If not for reservations. The only thing smarthas are against is reservations. So far in this forum also no one (except so-called brahmin-bashers) acknowledged what the colonial shastris did was improper and unsuited for the times.

Till date smartas continue to use the word Shudra. The impunity factor comes in because they know very well the word Shudra means slave. Its like implying that in kaliyuga there are ony 2 classes -- brahmin lords with everyone else as their slaves. How kind of them.

Am not really surprised Maharastra was one of the earliest places where anti-brahminism movement started. The Kayasthas, Prabhus and others well versed in sanskrit must have known what the term shudra meant.

This is a nice paper on the Chitpavans's role in preventing the goldsmiths from claiming brahmin position and prabhus from claiming kayastha position. What an irony to think that their subsequent inter-mingling could not be prevented.

The unfortunate part is that the temple-priests paid and still pay the price for the follies of the smarthas.

Btw, not just Vellalars, the Nadars faced arson, assault and murder from the Maravars, Nayars and Kallars (thevars). In this thread itself we have noted how nadar women had to suffer indignity for not being allowed to cover their upper body.

However, the point to note is that the Vellalars did not create varnas and brahmanical hierachies themselves. The Vellalars were just harem loyalists of brahmins still following the age old brahmanical loyalty of subjugating nadars and various untouchables.

Ofcourse for these rajaputras, their own social position depended on such subjugation afterall. If their brahmin benefactors ('fathers') no longer have a shudra class (to lord upon), how could they remain brahmins and kshatriyas respectively. Same goes for the Nayars and Maravars.

The Maravars were just bandits (IMO), but they were considered 'Kshatriyas' because they lived off arms (in my view all 'kshatriyas' are merely bandits). I have written about marava warlike bands here.

The job of these maravas was to show off their social power by swooping down on hapless villagers and disappearing with crops, girls, cattle. Funnily the brahmins (new pana bards / vedic brahmins) legitamized the rule of these marava chieftains by singing their glories.

The Kallars were similar in their 'bandit' role, though i suspect they became bandits by force of circumstances (perhaps on being evicted from the lands they cultivated; since a section of them were slaves. Notably, all kallars in all places are not a homogeneous group).

The kallars styled themselves 'thevars' in later times, but ofcourse they were / are different from the thevars of the ancient period who were brahmanical and a different class.

The Nadars were ranked just above untouchables in the colonial period. But socially they were considered not just untouchables, but also unseeables. Do find out why.

The nadars claim a section of them, the nelamaikarars, were tax-collectors in the nayak period and earlier. However, imo the Nelamaikarars were also toddy-taping shanars originally, who just happened to arise in position to serve as the local tax-collectors (for their own areas). The origins of their 'aristocracy' however is shrouded in mystery -- anyways, since they too were associated with the ritually polluting shanars, their social position was also considered low.

Am quite convinced that the Sanrors or Shanars simply reinvented themselves with the term, Nadar. Just like Komatis reinvented themselves with the high sounding name "arya vaishyas".

Personally, i do think the Shanars had links with the Pandyas and Pallavas. IMO they were subjugated by the Cholas. And from there on they were kept low on a social scale.

Its a twist of fate, to think that the ancient priests of Shanar-Sanrors; ie, the munkudumi dikshits / pandi temple priests, came to their rescue in the colonial period. Alas, everyone was thwarted by the dicates of the Smarthas.
This is very good analysis.

I recollect a conversation with a smartha from the chidambaram area. I understand that most smarthas in the chidambaram area are Vadama. Correct me anyone if I am wrong. Apart from that we have Gurukkals and Dikshithars and may be choliyars and a few others. This smartha said talking about himself , that in the past, the vadama (the smrithi bearing brahmin of that region) were considered bullies. I am able to easily connect this notion expressed with your post.
Let no one take my post to be a bashing of subsects as people should understand that I am not an outsider.
 
கால பைரவன்;100176 said:
Misused by whom?
Misused by Smarthas (any group following smrithis).

When HH writes here that only two categories of people existed, the brahmins and shudras, isn't she generalizing?
Please ask this to chitpavan 'brahmins' who downgraded kayastha prabhus to Shudra status based on this very puranic claim.

According to HH, it is okay to generalize for the purpose of demonizing brahmins but it is wrong to generalize otherwise.
I am not inclined to generalise all brahmins under one generic term "brahmins". I am differentiating the smarthas from all other brahmins. Those who misuse the term "brahmin" should feel ashamed for bringing problems upon temple-priests just because they (smarthas) want to maintain their own social position. I am stating facts from history. If am wrong please do correct me with counter-points. But personal allegations are not ok.

The rest of the post has several inaccurate accounts. Will try to deal with them later.

HH does not realize that the verse from புறநானூறு that showed the existence of four groups contradicts her claim that there were only brahmins and shudras.
How does it matter what groups existed in the past. What matters is what the smarthas testified in courts in the colonial period.

You should be asking this to smarthas actually
(1) why did they attest puranic claims in the colonial period (that kaliyuga has only 2 classes - brahmins and shudras)
(2) what did they have to lose if some groups claimed a kshatriya or vaishya position for themselves. Why such social high-handedness of putting everyone down.

In the case of Vellalars it was simply a case of use and discard. Use them until they subjugated slaves for you, then downgrade them to Shudras when they are no longer needed.

The very basis on which she is carefully constructing false theories is found to be ill-conceived.
But the crucial point is this:



This canard, that the dominant non-brahmin castes were/are mere pawns in the hands of brahmins, is being repeated again and again in this forum. It is being done primarily with the motivation of blaming brahmins and brahmins alone for the social stratification that prevailed and that prevails in our society. This is a nice escape route for all the non-brahmin castes who indulge in oppressive practices. Their aim is to exonerate themselves from all the oppression they carried out and/or to justify any and all discrimination against brahmins of today. And by doing so, they are able to happily subjugate "lower" castes until this day. The pity is there is a group here in this forum to toe this line and swallow these lies hook, line and sinker. But it won't fly with all people.
Honestly, KB, i cudn't care what you think. For me it suffices when am told my posts are making several people re-think their ideas of caste. So far people (i know of) kept touting their social greatness. Now the NBs are feeling ashamed of the oppresive practices their forefathers indulged in. There is no escape route for anyone. I hope more and more people read these posts.

Addition -- Now that i have written about the tamil 'upper' castes, i will start doing the same for the telugu 'upper' castes -- those who consider themselves socially so great, like the rajus, balijas, kamma, velamas, etc. Let them also know their caste history and ask themselves what is there to feel pride in it. IMO the more people know their own caste histories, the more they will feel inclined to give it up. Identities may remain ofcourse, but the pride will be gone. The dislike for so-called 'lower' castes will also be gone.
 
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