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Wikipedia article about Kerala Iyers

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There is no question of kings being slaves to brahmins. Most hindu kings and chieftains themselves were brahmins or proclaimed to be so, (please check out tamilakam kings and chieftains under cholas, pallavas, pandyas...).


In TN scenario, there is clear distinction between அரசர் (the kshatriyas) & அந்தணர் (the brahmins).

The brahmin groups in TN do not claim kshatriya lineage.

The NBs do. The vanniyars, the devendrars, the vellalars, the sanaars (nadars) are some of the groups who claim kshatriya lineage. The Vanniars claim they are agni kula kshatriyas. The sanaars claim they are surya kula kshatriyas. Then there is chandra kula kshatriyas. There is yadhu kula khatriyas. There is nadhi kula kshatriyas. There are several others.

Please, i coudn't care or be bothered to get angry if you call me or anyone brabas or whatever else you please. Am gonna ignore your silly allegations abt the forum as well.


The allegations are not silly. The charges are valid. HH is free to ignore.

There was a post in this very thread by TBS saying "brahmins are evil, shudras are good" (it was deleted by praveen). People are still using the word "Shudra"...so, what's the point...

This holier-than-thou approach is repugnant. In the discussions in Reservation thread, it is HH who repeatedly used the term shudra. This, she did, despite repeated clarifications about my usage of the term OBC. The readers can refer to those discussions. Anyone who read TBS' post can see the context in which he was writing. IMO, he did not use the term "shudras" to denigrate anyone. He only pointed out where the discussions were going and how it will end.

Which dominant casteist NB has ever said Pulayas and Nayars are a homogeneous set. No one is hiding oppression. Its all in the open.

In TN, the dominant NB castes did. They did so to put the blame entirely on brahmins. They did not do it for any noble egalitarian purpose. They still treat the "lower" castes with contempt.

Everyone dominant played a role in casteism. Period.

Thanks for the candid admission.

It appears NBs are ok with acknowledging their roles and moving on to creating a better society. but 'brahmins' are not willing to acknowledge anything (the few who do, are called 'self-hating brahmins', etc).

It would certainly appear so to a Brabas.

இம்மாதிரி காதுல பூ சுத்தும் வேலைகளை எவ்வளவோ பார்த்திருக்கிறோம்.


Am done with these exchanges on this topic with you. Unless something new gets put forward, will not be replying.

No one is putting a gun to anyone's head.

Regards!
 
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KB, its a good idea to take this discussion to an other thread. The thread starter wants this thread closed. In case we are not going to be discussing on an other thread, here is what i think in brief -- the puRanNAnURu being sangam period literature probably refers to social classification around 100 AD. IMO various groups moved down south due to the presence of Kushan empire in the north during this time. The Kushan Skanda became Murugan of the south IMO. This is an interesting point. Hope we can take it to a new thread and continue more on it.

Prasad1, Please refer to Kathleen Gough's records. The pallans were slaves to iyers in the colonial period. Its not known since when. Your claim that they did not supress people has no historical backing. Am not interested in arguing whether this is pro-brahmanism or anti-brahmanism. If there is historical backing i will talk about it. That's all. Since you say back to topic, i shall abide.

KB, please take the purananuru discussion to another thread.

Smt. HappyHindu,

I have some doubts re. the above. Kindly clarify.

You say "The Kushan Skanda became Murugan of the south IMO." But there was no Kushan ruler by name Skanda. The Kushan coins depict one skanda along with Visakha and these are deities of indic ethnicity. So, it is not clear as to how we can talk about Kushan Skanda. Skanda was a deity worshipped much earlier than possibly the Kushan era and the Murugan of the south is praised in Tolkappiyam itself, I believe. In that case, the Murugan concept must have come down south (if at all scholarly opinion agrees that Murugan is not a native god concept of the early Tamils themselves and is an import from the north, I am not sure about this point.) much earlier than the Kushan period. My question is, are there any evidences to support your IMO? In short "historical backing" just as you insist in the second para above.
 
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The support to Nadars came from the temple priests. Time and again the generic term brahmin is misused. The temple priests themselves were ranked low in the dharmashastras (smrithis). The final call has always been that of the Smarthas.

Smt. HH,

I agree that temple priests were not considered highest class of brahmins in Manu Dharma Sastra, and may be some other Dharma Sastras also. But is it possible for us to substantiate the statement "The final call has always been that of the Smarthas."? Did the British courts insist that all court Sastris ought to be smartha brahmins only? Any guidelines issued?

The Nadar case is no different from the Komatis who got support from the Vaidikis. But the Niyogis called them unread in dharmashastras. Which is true (except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis).

According to wikipedia, the vaidiki brahmins are smaarthas and Ghanapaathis too. In addition it says they follow Adi Sankara. Their matrimonials for their girls mention the gotras like Bharadwaja. So, it will be helpful if you will provide the background material/s based on which you state "except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis".

Whatever goodwill the temple priests had earned for the generic term 'brahmin' was all flushed out by the politically strong smarta shastris who testified varnas in courts.

But its a funny world really. The telugu niyogis, tamil smarthas, konkani chitpavans, and every such Smartha community would have never imagined an era of information boom where their own origins are dug into and questioned.

A 1000 years back, these smarthas did not even have mutt-affiliations. If they had given up the urge / role of assigning varnas in the colonial period, still things could have been okay. Looks like they believed they were invincible.

But the foolish ones were temple-priests (like adi saivas / gurukkals) who in the search for a higher social standing started claiming to be smartha brahmins in the colonial period. Probably they never realised what they were bargaining for.

Frankly, no one wud bother about colonial period. If not for reservations. The only thing smarthas are against is reservations. So far in this forum also no one (except so-called brahmin-bashers) acknowledged what the colonial shastris did was improper and unsuited for the times.

It appears to me that your arguments/statements are based on the following beliefs for which no supporting evidence is furnished:

  • Smartas constitute a separate sub-group within brahmins
  • The vaidikis, gurukkals and many other sub-groups within brahmins are all non-smarthas and hence do not follow any smriti
  • The British colonial government knew all about the above differentiations within brahmins, got convinced that the smarthas were the only people who enjoyed the right and possessed the necessary skill to interpret the saastras and pronounce the caste/varna statuses of each class of people, whenever a question arose.

I have not so far come across any books, statements or papers in support of any of the above presumptions. On the contrary, I find Kathleen Gough herself making the following remarks in the book "Aspects of caste in South India, Ceylon and North-West Pakistan, By Edmund Ronald Leach":—

"Usually, the caste communities of the village have in the past possessed hereditary differential rights in the produce of village lands, these rights being dispensed by a dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators.
...
The formal ranking of castes is defined in terms of the belief in ritual purity and pollution; rules of social distance between castes issue primarily from this belief. Whatever the origins of these rules, their codification, recording and adaptation to local circumstances have been primarily the work of the Brahmans, who from their origin in the vedic kingdoms of the North Indian river valleys spread throughout the sub-continent as the highest caste of religious specialists. The ubiquity of the Brahmans and their common possession of a sacred literature and a body of religious laws are apparently responsible for most of the common features of caste in the different regions.

Despite the universality of the Brahman, India cannot be said to possess a single caste system, but a number of regional systems. A comparison of regional systems is required which would permit not only generalizations covering all of them, but, more significantly, statements of concomitant variation. Regional differences are related partly to ecological variation, and partly to political history (which is itself of course influenced by ecology)."


It may be observed that the author, Kathleen Gough, first of all, makes unsubstantiated propositions to the effect that since the Brahmins because of their ubiquity, possession of common sacred literature and being highest caste, must have allotted the caste status and its codification. Please note that she does not indicate smaartha brahmins. While, this may go unchallenged as a personal belief of the author (just as much as in your case too) to put forward such a hypothesis before the public, I think it is necessary to provide incontrovertible, substantiating evidence. (I have not been able to find any such from your old posts in this thread; if there are, pl. give the links.)

Even so Ms. Gough has to grudgingly admit that the caste system has something to do with political history, ecology and also the dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators. It is therefore, necessary to disabuse our minds from conclusions drawn by authors like Gough who seem to prejudge the case, propound their preconceived notions as maxims and then perhaps try to find supporting evidences.

To sum up my case, the bulleted items above need to be substantiated.

...to be continued.
 




According to wikipedia, the vaidiki brahmins are smaarthas and Ghanapaathis too. In addition it says they follow Adi Sankara. Their matrimonials for their girls mention the gotras like Bharadwaja. So, it will be helpful if you will provide the background material/s based on which you state "except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis".

I would like to say something here based on my stay both in Andhra and TN. I know atleast two classes of vaidikis most of whom were never priests in the last few centuries, but possibly earlier. One is the Velanadu and the other is Mulukanadu. Mulukanadu are found in large numbers in TN and Karnataka. Vijayendra saraswati , I understand is a Mulukanadu and Abhinava Bharati of sringeri is also a Mulukanadu. So yes most certainly many of the vaidikis were not temple priests and are definitely smarthas. There are two other groups that I know of Venginadu and Telanganya. I am not sure if they were temple priests or smarthas.

I think the confusion is largely because of the Vaidiki-Niyogi conflicts. Niyogis may study the vedas but not be a purohit and a vaidiki is a purohit but never supposed to take administrative responsibilities including enforcement of laws. So the references to Niyogis being educated in smritis and castes is to be read in that context.

This is some input from my end. Thanks.
 
I am posting some information I unearthed. There are a group of Brahmins in Andhra called AdiSaivas. They seem to be similar to Gurukkals. Aradhyas who are probably a member of this group seem to be the theologians of Adi-Saiva religion in Andhra as opposed to being Smarthas. They are currently in control of the Srisailam temple. The Adi-Saivas strictly follow the Saiva Agamas much like our Gurukkals in TN.
 
கால பைரவன்;100424 said:
In TN scenario, there is clear distinction between அரசர் (the kshatriyas) & அந்தணர் (the brahmins).
Well, this is always claimed for caste-purity at every level, by every 'upper' caste. I was reading about how Vellala Mathas based on Saiva Siddhantam came to be created. I was very surprised to find that Outuvars of Vellala community once upon a time went by the suffix Tēcikar (desikar). Those interested can refer to Champalakshmi R (1994) Patikam Patuvar: Ritual Singing as a Means of Communication in Early Medieval South India. Studies in History 10:199.

The brahmin groups in TN do not claim kshatriya lineage.

The NBs do. The vanniyars, the devendrars, the vellalars, the sanaars (nadars) are some of the groups who claim kshatriya lineage. The Vanniars claim they are agni kula kshatriyas. The sanaars claim they are surya kula kshatriyas. Then there is chandra kula kshatriyas. There is yadhu kula khatriyas. There is nadhi kula kshatriyas. There are several others.
No point speaking about what people claim now.

This holier-than-thou approach is repugnant. In the discussions in Reservation thread, it is HH who repeatedly used the term shudra. This, she did, despite repeated clarifications about my usage of the term OBC. The readers can refer to those discussions. Anyone who read TBS' post can see the context in which he was writing. IMO, he did not use the term "shudras" to denigrate anyone. He only pointed out where the discussions were going and how it will end.
Everyone knows the context in which i used the word "shudra" in the Aarakshan thread.

No point in speaking on the behalf of TBS. Let him clarify if he wants to. Everyone knows in which circles the word is routinely used anyways...

In TN, the dominant NB castes did. They did so to put the blame entirely on brahmins. They did not do it for any noble egalitarian purpose. They still treat the "lower" castes with contempt.
Well those who faced varna denigration, and understood how some castes were formed, took to political recourse and started saying NBs must unite against the brahmins. I would not fault them because at this point the orthodoxy did not come forward to placate things. Anyways, am not interested in delving back into mutt issues at this point. So shall leave it here.

Maybe in the colonial period many NBs looked at 'lower' castes with contempt and some still do. But the more people understand caste-constructs the more they seem willing to give it up. And i think that is important.
 
Smt. HappyHindu,

I have some doubts re. the above. Kindly clarify.

You say "The Kushan Skanda became Murugan of the south IMO." But there was no Kushan ruler by name Skanda. The Kushan coins depict one skanda along with Visakha and these are deities of indic ethnicity. So, it is not clear as to how we can talk about Kushan Skanda. Skanda was a deity worshipped much earlier than possibly the Kushan era and the Murugan of the south is praised in Tolkappiyam itself, I believe. In that case, the Murugan concept must have come down south (if at all scholarly opinion agrees that Murugan is not a native god concept of the early Tamils themselves and is an import from the north, I am not sure about this point.) much earlier than the Kushan period. My question is, are there any evidences to support your IMO? In short "historical backing" just as you insist in the second para above.
Dear Sir,

The Kushans minted coins with their deity Skanda. There was no Kushan ruler by that name.

Since we dunno since when Skanda was a deity to the Kushans or others, maybe we can assume he was worshipped before the Kushan Era itself (??).

According to this website and this book (p.82) Kushan coins with Skanda were minted by the ruler Huvishka (126 - 64 AD) who also minted Greek, Zoarashtrian deities and Shiva in his coins.

Tholkappiyam is dated anywhere between 3rd century BC and 10th century AD. Since the dates collide maybe it is possible to concur that Kushan Skanda had some connection with tamil Murugan or became the tamil Murugan. Since the historical basis is not yet clear i used the word "IMO".

The historical backing was not used in this Murugan-Skanda context please (it is quite apparent i prefer not "insist" historical backing in caste issues).

As regards Skanda, the case gets curious since Skanda figures in Atharva texts. Maybe the Atharva texts (and the deities Shiva and Skanda) arrived in India around this period. Maybe this may mean the brahmanas (ritual texts) with specified roles fixed for the hotr (rig), adhvaryu (yajur), udgatr (sama) and brahmana (atharva) got created after this period.

Regards.
 
I agree that temple priests were not considered highest class of brahmins in Manu Dharma Sastra, and may be some other Dharma Sastras also. But is it possible for us to substantiate the statement "The final call has always been that of the Smarthas."? Did the British courts insist that all court Sastris ought to be smartha brahmins only? Any guidelines issued?
From whatever have read about various court cases on varna fights, i can say the word used is 'brahmin'. I really would not know if they meant temple-priest or smartha brahmin. However, we must go by which groups opposed varna claims the most. It was Chitpavans in maharastra and Niyogis in andhra. In tamilnadu Paramacharya made it openly clear that some castes are shudras. The insisting on varnas came most vocally from the smarthas. Maybe the temple priests did not stand a chance in front of these dominant smarthas. Also please note relationship between gurukkals-vellalars mentioned below. Why would temple-priests downgrade the status of their benefactors...

According to wikipedia, the vaidiki brahmins are smaarthas and Ghanapaathis too. In addition it says they follow Adi Sankara. Their matrimonials for their girls mention the gotras like Bharadwaja. So, it will be helpful if you will provide the background material/s based on which you state "except velanadu 'brahmins', the rest of the telugu vaidikis are temple priests who had nothing to do with Smrithis".
Will make a seperate post on telugu brahmins.

It appears to me that your arguments/statements are based on the following beliefs for which no supporting evidence is furnished:

  • Smartas constitute a separate sub-group within brahmins
  • The vaidikis, gurukkals and many other sub-groups within brahmins are all non-smarthas and hence do not follow any smriti
  • The British colonial government knew all about the above differentiations within brahmins, got convinced that the smarthas were the only people who enjoyed the right and possessed the necessary skill to interpret the saastras and pronounce the caste/varna statuses of each class of people, whenever a question arose.
I simply do not know if the british were aware of these differences. Since a close relationship exists between the gurukkals and vellalars (and that too based on saiva-siddhantam and mutts) it seems improbable that gurukkals will go to courts to downgrade vellalars. As explained above, am going by writings / details of who made the greatest noise against varna claims (and find they are smarthas).

I have not so far come across any books, statements or papers in support of any of the above presumptions. On the contrary, I find Kathleen Gough herself making the following remarks in the book "Aspects of caste in South India, Ceylon and North-West Pakistan, By Edmund Ronald Leach":—

"Usually, the caste communities of the village have in the past possessed hereditary differential rights in the produce of village lands, these rights being dispensed by a dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators.
...
The formal ranking of castes is defined in terms of the belief in ritual purity and pollution; rules of social distance between castes issue primarily from this belief. Whatever the origins of these rules, their codification, recording and adaptation to local circumstances have been primarily the work of the Brahmans, who from their origin in the vedic kingdoms of the North Indian river valleys spread throughout the sub-continent as the highest caste of religious specialists. The ubiquity of the Brahmans and their common possession of a sacred literature and a body of religious laws are apparently responsible for most of the common features of caste in the different regions.

Despite the universality of the Brahman, India cannot be said to possess a single caste system, but a number of regional systems. A comparison of regional systems is required which would permit not only generalizations covering all of them, but, more significantly, statements of concomitant variation. Regional differences are related partly to ecological variation, and partly to political history (which is itself of course influenced by ecology)."


It may be observed that the author, Kathleen Gough, first of all, makes unsubstantiated propositions to the effect that since the Brahmins because of their ubiquity, possession of common sacred literature and being highest caste, must have allotted the caste status and its codification. Please note that she does not indicate smaartha brahmins. While, this may go unchallenged as a personal belief of the author (just as much as in your case too) to put forward such a hypothesis before the public, I think it is necessary to provide incontrovertible, substantiating evidence. (I have not been able to find any such from your old posts in this thread; if there are, pl. give the links.)
It is rather clear that varna allocations are based on smrithis. And smartha 'brahmins' are followers of smrithis. So why should we think Kathleen Gough is making unsubtantiated claims?? But maybe we need to discuss this in detail.

Even so Ms. Gough has to grudgingly admit that the caste system has something to do with political history, ecology and also the dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators. It is therefore, necessary to disabuse our minds from conclusions drawn by authors like Gough who seem to prejudge the case, propound their preconceived notions as maxims and then perhaps try to find supporting evidences.
Well, sir, how the roles of land managers came about is already mentioned in the Aarakshan thread. But what does the role of land-managers got to do with varna-allocations? I would not know why you think Kathleen Gough must have prejuged or had preconeived notions.

To sum up my case, the bulleted items above need to be substantiated.

...to be continued.
Sir, i will suggest that you please complete your posts. I will wait until you are done and reply after that. Thanks.
 
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I am posting some information I unearthed. There are a group of Brahmins in Andhra called AdiSaivas. They seem to be similar to Gurukkals. Aradhyas who are probably a member of this group seem to be the theologians of Adi-Saiva religion in Andhra as opposed to being Smarthas. They are currently in control of the Srisailam temple. The Adi-Saivas strictly follow the Saiva Agamas much like our Gurukkals in TN.

Dear Shri Subbudu,

Can you give the urls/references from which you got this info?

AFAIK, Aradhyas are brahmins who adopted Basava's religion but refused to give up their caste leanings. Virasaivas inhabited the area around Srisailam. In the days of Sankara he conquered and subdued the local king and wanted to usurp the temple to hinduism proper but he could not subdue the Chenchus. After protracted sieges and negotiations, it was agreed that the chenchus will be having the right to officiate as priests during the period (one month if I remember right) and all income will be theirs. For the remaining 11 months the adisaiva or any other priest will be officiating. Even today I understand that Chenchus can go inside the Garbhagriha.

Whether Aradhya brahmins follow Basava in regard to their social codes or whether they follow some smriti is not clear. basava himself was born to Aradhya brahmin parents.

Coming to the social codes of life, both Vaishnavism and Saivism must have had their own equivalents of what are Dharma Sastras in the vedic/meemaamsic groups. The following image may help throw some light on this aspect.

(Extracts
Hindu scriptures

By Dominic Goodall, Robert Charles Zaehner
Noname-04-a.webp

Hence I think it is simply futile to try to distinguish brahmins following some smriti or dharma sastra and brahmins following the Saiva Agamas, Paancharaatra or Vaikhanasa. There is also no clear evidence to the point whether the Chozha grants of Brahmadeyam and/or Chaturvedimangalams were in fact given to the meemaamsaks, aadisaiva brahmins or Gurukkals; it is possible that all of them benefitted this way. And the serfdom of Pallars was made use of by all landholders including the different denominations of brahmin landholders as also the NB landholders. Hence it will be just a personal opinion and nothing more to assert that the smaarta brahmins alone benefitted from the Pallar serfs bonded to the land, unless clear evidence is furnished.
 
Dear Shri Subbudu,

Can you give the urls/references from which you got this info?

AFAIK, Aradhyas are brahmins who adopted Basava's religion but refused to give up their caste leanings. Virasaivas inhabited the area around Srisailam. In the days of Sankara he conquered and subdued the local king and wanted to usurp the temple to hinduism proper but he could not subdue the Chenchus. After protracted sieges and negotiations, it was agreed that the chenchus will be having the right to officiate as priests during the period (one month if I remember right) and all income will be theirs. For the remaining 11 months the adisaiva or any other priest will be officiating. Even today I understand that Chenchus can go inside the Garbhagriha.

Whether Aradhya brahmins follow Basava in regard to their social codes or whether they follow some smriti is not clear. basava himself was born to Aradhya brahmin parents.

Coming to the social codes of life, both Vaishnavism and Saivism must have had their own equivalents of what are Dharma Sastras in the vedic/meemaamsic groups. The following image may help throw some light on this aspect.

(Extracts
Hindu scriptures

By Dominic Goodall, Robert Charles Zaehner
View attachment 1335

Hence I think it is simply futile to try to distinguish brahmins following some smriti or dharma sastra and brahmins following the Saiva Agamas, Paancharaatra or Vaikhanasa. There is also no clear evidence to the point whether the Chozha grants of Brahmadeyam and/or Chaturvedimangalams were in fact given to the meemaamsaks, aadisaiva brahmins or Gurukkals; it is possible that all of them benefitted this way. And the serfdom of Pallars was made use of by all landholders including the different denominations of brahmin landholders as also the NB landholders. Hence it will be just a personal opinion and nothing more to assert that the smaarta brahmins alone benefitted from the Pallar serfs bonded to the land, unless clear evidence is furnished.

Dear Sangom,

Hope this link helps. It is not the most scholarly site but I think it contains quite a number of reasonably acceptable references
Brahmin, brahmana, caste, tribe, gotra, rishi, ritual, india, hindu, religion, Mana Sanskriti (Our Culture), Issue 69
 
Originally Posted by sangom
I agree that temple priests were not considered highest class of brahmins in Manu Dharma Sastra, and may be some other Dharma Sastras also. But is it possible for us to substantiate the statement "The final call has always been that of the Smarthas."? Did the British courts insist that all court Sastris ought to be smartha brahmins only? Any guidelines issued?

From whatever have read about various court cases on varna fights, i can say the word used is 'brahmin'. I really would not know if they meant temple-priest or smartha brahmin. However, we must go by which groups opposed varna claims the most. It was Chitpavans in maharastra and Niyogis in andhra. In tamilnadu Paramacharya made it openly clear that some castes are shudras. The insisting on varnas came most vocally from the smarthas. Maybe the temple priests did not stand a chance in front of these dominant smarthas. Also please note relationship between gurukkals-vellalars mentioned below. Why would temple-priests downgrade the status of their benefactors...

As I have said in post #109 to Shri subbudu, all Brahmins followed one or another code of conduct regulating their social, family and individual lives, whether we call it smriti, agama or something else. Hence, in the absence of any reliable evidence about whether the court Shastris in various parts of British India were all the so-called smartha Brahmins (as per your belief), it will not be correct to go ahead and straight away propound a theory of anti-smartha Brahmins IMO.
When we say “opposed varna claims the most”, it should be made sufficiently (if not abundantly clear as to whether the opposition was based on the smritis or was it just the group’s predominant sentiment. Since I could not access the records of any such Varna claims by googling, it will be helpful if you present the relevant extracts preferably in a separate new thread so that all readers here will benefit by that.
As you very well know the Chittapavans gained ascendancy over the Desasthas after Balaji Viswanatha Bhatt was appointed Peshwa and the Peshwa regime saw the Chittapavans posing as the highest class of Brahmins. If the Chittapavans were smartas, so were the Desasthas, the most numerous among Maharashtrian Brahmins, then and now. And if the Desasthas did not play any role will it not become, according to your line of thought that there were smartha Brahmins who did not oppose varna claims?
Hence, in order that readers may get a complete picture of your side of the argument and will be able to judge how persuasive these are, I think you should give at least the urls and other links about the Varna fights on which you base your arguments. In case they are academic papers to which you have academic access, please try to give a gist.
Our further discussion will greatly benefit from the above materials.
I am not aware of the type of close relationship which you say existed between the Gurukkals and the Vellalars; when did this commence? What was the basis? Did they intermarry or interdine? What made the Gurukkals take the side of the vellalars and wanted their upgradation to higher caste status? If as you say, “why would temple-priests downgrade the status of their benefactors...” is a valid and admissible way for coming to conclusions, is it not equally valid argument to look at what would have been the benefits/losses to temple priests if the vellalars were promoted to Brahmin (smartha) status?
It appears to me that your arguments/statements are based on the following beliefs for which no supporting evidence is furnished:
• Smartas constitute a separate sub-group within brahmins
• The vaidikis, gurukkals and many other sub-groups within brahmins are all non-smarthas and hence do not follow any smriti
• The British colonial government knew all about the above differentiations within brahmins, got convinced that the smarthas were the only people who enjoyed the right and possessed the necessary skill to interpret the saastras and pronounce the caste/varna statuses of each class of people, whenever a question arose.

I simply do not know if the british were aware of these differences. Since a close relationship exists between the gurukkals and vellalars (and that too based on saiva-siddhantam and mutts) it seems improbable that gurukkals will go to courts to downgrade vellalars. As explained above, am going by writings / details of who made the greatest noise against varna claims (and find they are smarthas).


What is the close relationship? What was its extent and nature? Not clear.

I have not so far come across any books, statements or papers in support of any of the above presumptions. On the contrary, I find Kathleen Gough herself making the following remarks in the book "Aspects of caste in South India, Ceylon and North-West Pakistan, By Edmund Ronald Leach":—

"Usually, the caste communities of the village have in the past possessed hereditary differential rights in the produce of village lands, these rights being dispensed by a dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators.
...
The formal ranking of castes is defined in terms of the belief in ritual purity and pollution; rules of social distance between castes issue primarily from this belief. Whatever the origins of these rules, their codification, recording and adaptation to local circumstances have been primarily the work of the Brahmans, who from their origin in the vedic kingdoms of the North Indian river valleys spread throughout the sub-continent as the highest caste of religious specialists. The ubiquity of the Brahmans and their common possession of a sacred literature and a body of religious laws are apparently responsible for most of the common features of caste in the different regions.

Despite the universality of the Brahman, India cannot be said to possess a single caste system, but a number of regional systems. A comparison of regional systems is required which would permit not only generalizations covering all of them, but, more significantly, statements of concomitant variation. Regional differences are related partly to ecological variation, and partly to political history (which is itself of course influenced by ecology)."


It may be observed that the author, Kathleen Gough, first of all, makes unsubstantiated propositions to the effect that since the Brahmins because of their ubiquity, possession of common sacred literature and being highest caste, must have allotted the caste status and its codification. Please note that she does not indicate smaartha brahmins. While, this may go unchallenged as a personal belief of the author (just as much as in your case too) to put forward such a hypothesis before the public, I think it is necessary to provide incontrovertible, substantiating evidence. (I have not been able to find any such from your old posts in this thread; if there are, pl. give the links.)

It is rather clear that varna allocations are based on smrithis. And smartha 'brahmins' are followers of smrithis. So why should we think Kathleen Gough is making unsubtantiated claims?? But maybe we need to discuss this in detail.

This line of thinking is not scientific nor persuasive, I would say. If you say Varna allocations are based on smritis – by whoever it might have been, smarta, gurukkal, vaidiki, chittapavan, whatever – does it not follow that the smriti texts are to blame and not those who followed it? I am reminded of the saying that even if one drinks milk, sitting behind a toddy palm, people will think that he is drinking palm toddy only  While that may be correct in mundane circumstances, I am of the considered view that before blaming any set of people wholesale, we must look into all available evidence examine whether these evidences lead one unmistakably to some definite conclusion and then present all the facts in a persuasive manner so that any unbiased reader will be compelled to accept the pov thus presented. Simply saying “whatever I have read shows that caste/group xyz did many bad things and hence that caste/group is bad.” will only end up in creating bad blood.

Even so Ms. Gough has to grudgingly admit that the caste system has something to do with political history, ecology and also the dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators. It is therefore, necessary to disabuse our minds from conclusions drawn by authors like Gough who seem to prejudge the case, propound their preconceived notions as maxims and then perhaps try to find supporting evidences.

Well, sir, how the roles of land managers came about is already mentioned in the Aarakshan thread. But what does the role of land-managers got to do with varna-allocations? I would not know why you think Kathleen Gough must have prejuged or had preconeived notions.

The word used is dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators decided the rights in the produce of the land to various castes. Is it not a very important criterion that would have decided the relative standing of each caste? If this most important economic criterion was decided by a combined forum of dominant caste people, how can we say that the Varna allocation was done independent of this criterion? For that also we must have some evidence this way or that.

To sum up my case, the bulleted items above need to be substantiated.

...to be continued.

Sir, i will suggest that you please complete your posts. I will wait until you are done and reply after that. Thanks.

I suggest that you start a new thread and furnish the relevant evidence regarding caste fights, varna allocations, gurukkal-vellala friendship, etc., all of which form the basis of your thesis. Further discussions can be resumed thereafter imho.
 
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Coming to the social codes of life, both Vaishnavism and Saivism must have had their own equivalents of what are Dharma Sastras in the vedic/meemaamsic groups. The following image may help throw some light on this aspect.

(Extracts
Hindu scriptures

By Dominic Goodall, Robert Charles Zaehner
View attachment 1335

Hence I think it is simply futile to try to distinguish brahmins following some smriti or dharma sastra and brahmins following the Saiva Agamas, Paancharaatra or Vaikhanasa. There is also no clear evidence to the point whether the Chozha grants of Brahmadeyam and/or Chaturvedimangalams were in fact given to the meemaamsaks, aadisaiva brahmins or Gurukkals; it is possible that all of them benefitted this way. And the serfdom of Pallars was made use of by all landholders including the different denominations of brahmin landholders as also the NB landholders. Hence it will be just a personal opinion and nothing more to assert that the smaarta brahmins alone benefitted from the Pallar serfs bonded to the land, unless clear evidence is furnished.
I will agree there must have been social codes of conduct for the temple priests of both Saivas and Vaishnavas. But whether these social codes were equivalent to the Dharmashastras is very hard to say.

We have to take note since when the Tamil society came under sanskrit influence; before we move on to Dharmashastras. Definitely there was a stage in tamil history where there was no sanskrit or dharmashastra influence.

I will agree with George Hart that vedic-brahmins started arriving in tamilakam from 100 AD to 700 AD. But during this time the vedic brahmins were still taking over the roles of the panars, anthanars, etc. IMO, Sanskrit influence established itself full scale in the 8th and 9th centuries AD.

Lets view this from the temple tradtions pov. The institution of patikam patuvar first appears in the late 9th century Pallava inscriptions. It became part of temple worship under the early Cholas (10th century). Under Rajaraja I (11th century) it became firmly established as a pre-eminent socio-religious activity of the temple. The ritual singers were Velala Ouduvars.

Now the period of the hymns are interesting. Because the saiva hymns absorbed various influences into its fold through the institution of the temple, including folk elements, Sanskritic forms and sects like the Kapalikas and Mahavratins. The hagiographical works expanded and brought the Siddhas into their fold during this time period, by canonising Siddha Tirumular.

So Saivism now established itself, under royal patronage, as the dominant religion, starting with the Chola rulers after Parantaka I (A.D. 907-955), and becoming consolidated by the time of Rajaraja I and Rajendra I (A.D. 985-1044) as the royal cult. It is after Cuntarar, whose work Tiruttontattokai lists all the Saiva bhakti saints (62 of them before him); that the three groups of hymns of the trio become a single text, structured as the Tiruppatikam and was introduced into temple rituals.

The messages encoded in these hymns are clear. There is a a voiced protest against caste hierarchy in the religious sphere, emphasis on devotion to a personal god, an emerging sacred geography and concept of pilgrimage, and above all a sense of community above caste.

What we see is that caste structures existed ofcourse, but were not rigid once upon a time. Caste by itself is not discrimination, especially if they allow people to move from one caste to another. Sangam literature does mention caste, but does not prohibit change of caste (occupation) with regard to temple activites. It would seem like anyone could become an anthanar or a panar bard. There was no birth right on temple roles, bhakti and moksham.

But this fluid system changed. It was replaced by the dharmashastra type of rigid caste structure. It must have happened because Sanskrit influence became dominant. Sangam literature does not mention Pallavas and is centered around the muvender trio, Chola, Pandya, Chera. The Pallavas supposedly brought Sanskrit to tamilkam. From there on things must have started changing. But the social-clamp-down should be atrributed to the cholas IMO.

Sanskrit brought local tamil kings into mythical sanskrit genealogy. From around 8th century onwards sanskrit became continuously used by various rulers. In the Velvikudi inscriptions of the Pandyas of the eighth/ninth century AD, Tamil was used side by side with Sanskrit, giving two prasastis, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil.

But apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil but restricted their prasastis to a single language, Sanskrit.

Typically, Sanskrit prasasti provides rulers with a purely mythological ancestry. In the case of Pandyas, it traces their dynasty back to its mythic ancestor Pandya, who at the beginning of the present Kalpa was reborn as Budha, son of the Moon, and so on. This is in contrast with their tamil prasasti which is a piece of detailed local history enumerating seven ancestors of the then present king Netunchezian with many details of battles and conquests.

The concept of "high born" with such mythical ancestries became prevalant with sanskrit influence. This resulting in social caste-rigidity was only a matter of time IMO. After the rise of the brahmins, what happened in chola domains, is the rest which i have already dealt in the Arakshan thread.

So sir, imo, it would be a speculative assumption to think that social codes of temple-priests were similar to dharmashastras. Shamans and ritualism centred around idols have existed in various tribes. There is no evidence that they involved in the dharmashastra-type of social clamp-downs.

Anyways, in tamilakam the emerging scenarion of sanskrit influence seems have given rise to new conflict situations. Conflicts created due to royal patronization of brahmins, and the changing form of "tamil hinduism". A deepening sectarian rivalry emerged between the Saivas and the Vaisnavas. Another rivalry emerged as the Velala community wanted a greater share in the authority structure of the temple through the matha.

The Velalas initiated the process of organisation of the Saiva Siddhanta canon, in which the Tēvāram is arranged as the first seven books, followed by other books containing hymns of other saints not sanctified till then; and finally organising hagiographical literature and Saiva Siddhanta philosophical treatises. The Vellala elite created a whole series of interpretational techniques to relate Tēvārams to the Saiva Siddhanta. The ritual singers of Tēvārams (velala ouduvars) were now trained and supported by the mathas. This process of change began after 1200 AD.

So, quite obviously around this time, caste ridification was complete. So much that the velalas had to create a matha to get a greater share of temple roles.

AFAIK, the terms Chaturvedi Mangalams and Brahmadeyams refer to brahmins (fire priests). The term Devadanam refers to lands donated to temples; which may have been controlled by temple-priests, vellalars and brahmins. But then brahmins took over the temples, so things must have changed.

However, i suspect the early brahmins (munkudumi groups) who took over temples were pro-shukra groups and not smrithi-followers initially. If they were they could have been viewed as a threat by the local tamil rulers imo.

It is rather clear, the roles of anthanars, etc got 'taken over' (hijacked imo) by incoming vedic brahmins, and thereafter smrithi adherence started.

IMO, smrithi-adhering vedic brahmin were most likely the pin-kudumi pro-brihaspati groups who started arriving around or after the 4th century.

Perhaps in later times (to compete with smrithi-adhering brahmins) some of the early pro-shukra groups (temple-priests) adopted smrithis, associated ritual pollution norms, etc, in some places, and became transformed into Smartha brahmins (??). Will try to look up details on these points.

Again, Chozha period literature makes it rather clear that Pallars were agricultural serfs. Those who owned land were vellalars and brahmins. Whether these brahmins included gurukkals is hard to say. Will try to look up info. Atleast from colonial period literature i found no evidence so far of pallars being slaves to gurukkals. Kathleen Gough's records mentions pallars as slaves of brahacharanams though. Similarly pallars were slaves to landed NB castes in telugu regions (am trying to find the names and details of the specific NB castes). I will look up if pallars were slaves of other groups of TBs and NBs....

Regards.

References:
1) Old Tamil Cahkam literature and the so-called Cankam period, by Herman Tieken.
2) Patikam Patuvar: Ritual Singing as a Means of Communication in Early Medieval South India, by R Champalakshmi.
 
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As I have said in post #109 to Shri subbudu, all Brahmins followed one or another code of conduct regulating their social, family and individual lives, whether we call it smriti, agama or something else.
Sir, i replied to your post (to subbudu sir) above. I request you to clarify how we can claim social codes of temple-priests were the similar to dharmashastras.

I have no idea how we can compare agamas with dharmashastras (smrithis) either. Here our context is specifically varnas. Not social codes like observing theethu during menstruation, etc.

So in the context of varnas, i request you to provide info that agamas, temple-priests, etc follow such things.

Hence, in the absence of any reliable evidence about whether the court Shastris in various parts of British India were all the so-called smartha Brahmins (as per your belief), it will not be correct to go ahead and straight away propound a theory of anti-smartha Brahmins IMO.
Sir, maybe those smarthas who are temple-priests have little adherence for varna norms. But generally it wud be improbable to expect temple-priests to go against their benefactors, which are the 'upper' caste NBs , even if they are following smrithis.

I will happily stand corrected if we are able to find proof that temple-priests (ordinary ones or maybe those of large temples) also went to courts to testify varnas against their benefactors. In the case of nadars and komatis, the vaidikis (dikshita temple-priests for former, and dunno which sect for latter) testified in favor of them.

Then again, whereever we see varna-clampdowns, described in colonial period texts, we always find smarthas like niyogis or chitpavans, involved in it. Obviously they did not depend on benefactors for their living. So they could afford to deal in varnas publicly and antagonise people. They were militant brahmins, typical in the mold of 'kshatriyas' as described in the Smrithis.

So yes, we can say that these things depended on the dominant group of the respective region, instead of clubbing all smarthas under one category.

When we say “opposed varna claims the most”, it should be made sufficiently (if not abundantly clear as to whether the opposition was based on the smritis or was it just the group’s predominant sentiment.
I will agree it comes from a group's predominant sentiment; which i suppose comes from extreme adherence to smrithis (otherwise why should such a sentiment exist in any group).

Since I could not access the records of any such Varna claims by googling, it will be helpful if you present the relevant extracts preferably in a separate new thread so that all readers here will benefit by that.
Alright will do that as and when time permits. Will provide the links and whereever possible will copy-paste extracts. Infact i have already posted extracts and book links in old posts (for the cases of kayasthas of bengal, bihar and UP and komatis).

As you very well know the Chittapavans gained ascendancy over the Desasthas after Balaji Viswanatha Bhatt was appointed Peshwa and the Peshwa regime saw the Chittapavans posing as the highest class of Brahmins. If the Chittapavans were smartas, so were the Desasthas, the most numerous among Maharashtrian Brahmins, then and now. And if the Desasthas did not play any role will it not become, according to your line of thought that there were smartha Brahmins who did not oppose varna claims?
Yes i agree with your view point. The dominant group were the chitpavans. And so things depended on them.

I am not aware of the type of close relationship which you say existed between the Gurukkals and the Vellalars; when did this commence? What was the basis? Did they intermarry or interdine? What made the Gurukkals take the side of the vellalars and wanted their upgradation to higher caste status? If as you say, “why would temple-priests downgrade the status of their benefactors...” is a valid and admissible way for coming to conclusions, is it not equally valid argument to look at what would have been the benefits/losses to temple priests if the vellalars were promoted to Brahmin (smartha) status?
The gurukkal shivacharyas and the vellalars share a common link with shaiva siddhanta, which have described in my post above to subbudu sir. Here the question is not about inter-dining and marriage (or about social codes). Its about varnas and testifying about varnas, so i hope we can stick to that angle. I have no idea if the gurukkals went to courts to testify in favor of vellalars. They were not the dominant group. The dominant ones were ofcourse the tamil smarthas. The vellalars did not seek a brahmin status so the last sentence imo is a nonsequitur.

What is the close relationship? What was its extent and nature? Not clear.
Explained in post to subbudu sir.

This line of thinking is not scientific nor persuasive, I would say. If you say Varna allocations are based on smritis – by whoever it might have been, smarta, gurukkal, vaidiki, chittapavan, whatever – does it not follow that the smriti texts are to blame and not those who followed it? I am reminded of the saying that even if one drinks milk, sitting behind a toddy palm, people will think that he is drinking palm toddy only  While that may be correct in mundane circumstances, I am of the considered view that before blaming any set of people wholesale, we must look into all available evidence examine whether these evidences lead one unmistakably to some definite conclusion and then present all the facts in a persuasive manner so that any unbiased reader will be compelled to accept the pov thus presented. Simply saying “whatever I have read shows that caste/group xyz did many bad things and hence that caste/group is bad.” will only end up in creating bad blood.
Alright. I will say these varna ideas depended on both, the dominant group and their level of adherence to smrithis. Also sir, although i use the terms smarthas, brahmins, etc, it is obvious there cannot be generalisation. Am aware there were smartha men who questioned paramacharya about varnas, their relevance, etc. So not all smarthas were the rigid type. But then maybe these men could be called ex-smarthas, since they were into colonial jobs...

The word used is dominant caste group of land managers and village administrators decided the rights in the produce of the land to various castes. Is it not a very important criterion that would have decided the relative standing of each caste? If this most important economic criterion was decided by a combined forum of dominant caste people, how can we say that the Varna allocation was done independent of this criterion? For that also we must have some evidence this way or that.
Yes it should have. But to a poor brahmin a wealthy vellalar would still be a shudra. I suppose the cirteria was not wealth or local dominance, instead it was varna allocations as the dominant smartha group thought fit.

I suggest that you start a new thread and furnish the relevant evidence regarding caste fights, varna allocations, gurukkal-vellala friendship, etc., all of which form the basis of your thesis. Further discussions can be resumed thereafter imho.
Am already done with the roles of temple-priests and vellalars in the post to subbudu sir. Unless you want more details. Will make a post with hyperlinks / copy-paste extracts on varna fights of various castes. In the meantime please do post a response to this post and if any to post 112 also.

Regards.
 
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KB said:
The brahmin groups in TN do not claim kshatriya lineage.

The NBs do. The vanniyars, the devendrars, the vellalars, the sanaars (nadars) are some of the groups who claim kshatriya lineage. The Vanniars claim they are agni kula kshatriyas. The sanaars claim they are surya kula kshatriyas. Then there is chandra kula kshatriyas. There is yadhu kula khatriyas. There is nadhi kula kshatriyas. There are several others.


No point speaking about what people claim now.

Why? Is it because these facts do not conform with HH's view that the NBs are giving up caste?!

I think it is hypocritical to blame the varna system on one hand, but take an evasive route when such lineage claims to a varna are made by NBs!

Everyone knows the context in which i used the word "shudra" in the Aarakshan thread.

Should this benefit of context apply only to HH? Not to TBS? Perhaps HH believes in birth-based differential rights, after all.

Well those who faced varna denigration, and understood how some castes were formed, took to political recourse and started saying NBs must unite against the brahmins. I would not fault them

Sure! HH would not find fault with any one other than brahmins! That much is clear to all!

But after capturing political power, these dominant castes left the "lower" castes high and dry. This we see in all facets of life in TN: social, political and economical! We saw how reservation system in TN is abused by these dominant castes at the expense of truly backward people. It is imperative for these dominant castes to keep the brahmin-hatred alive so that they can hang on to this political power. However, as I said, truth has a way to come out.
 
I agree that temple priests were not considered highest class of brahmins in Manu Dharma Sastra, and may be some other Dharma Sastras also. But is it possible for us to substantiate the statement "The final call has always been that of the Smarthas."? Did the British courts insist that all court Sastris ought to be smartha brahmins only? Any guidelines issued?

In the particular case of Vellalars against Nadars, when the Nadars sought temple entry, the Nadars lost despite Chidambaram Dikshithars testifying in favor of them. This is because the court considered Caldwell's works as the final authority. More details available in the book, "Shoulder Cloth Riots - known lies and unknown truths."
 
கால பைரவன்;100631 said:
Why? Is it because these facts do not conform with HH's view that the NBs are giving up caste?!
During colonial period it is rather clear how much caste mattered. One cannot fault these people who started making and continue to make falsified kshatriya claims in a bid to get social recognition thru caste.

The urban / rich do not seem to have as much use for caste as the poor / rural folks do. I stand by my view that NBs are giving up caste. Just because they speak about caste identities does not mean they are holding on to it rigidly, or holding on to associated discrimination.

There were 11 weddings in known circles in the past 4 years and 10 were out of caste (arranged wedding btw selected by youngsters themselves from matrimonial websites). This is the same story everyone i know hears everywhere. The barriers are already crumbling. Its only a matter of time.

I think it is hypocritical to blame the varna system on one hand, but take an evasive route when such lineage claims to a varna are made by NBs!
Its a bigger hypocricy to wash off hands after creating casteism.

Should this benefit of context apply only to HH? Not to TBS? Perhaps HH believes in birth-based differential rights, after all.
The context in which i used the word shudra in the aarakshan thread is very clear. Ofcourse to some certain people like you and TBS it can mean anything you want it to.

Sure! HH would not find fault with any one other than brahmins! That much is clear to all!
To someone like you that is how it will seem.

But after capturing political power, these dominant castes left the "lower" castes high and dry.
EVR created compartmental reservations so that specific castes (dalits) can get reservations instead of forward-caste NBs usurping things. Tamilnadu has been prospering very well inspite of corrupt politicians. And that is because 'low' castes are aware of their constitutional rights and fight to claim it. 'Low'-castes are prospering. So thankyou.

This we see in all facets of life in TN: social, political and economical! We saw how reservation system in TN is abused by these dominant castes at the expense of truly backward people. It is imperative for these dominant castes to keep the brahmin-hatred alive so that they can hang on to this political power. However, as I said, truth has a way to come out.
Sheer allegations coming from those who cannot bear to see reservations benefitting anyone who is not a 'brahmin'. The point is, no one needs 'brahmins' in tamilnadu to help it prosper. So, your concerns about reservations, may be received by the likes of you. Not by NBs.
 
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We have to take note since when the Tamil society came under sanskrit influence; before we move on to Dharmashastras. Definitely there was a stage in tamil history where there was no sanskrit or dharmashastra influence.

Smt. HH,

This itself is something to be proved by further research. For example, there is a section of opinion which holds that even Tolkappiar and Tolkappiam tend to indicate Tamil-Sanskrit co-existence and borrowings from the same source of aindram sanskrit grammar. Hence, just making an assumption, like a bolt from the blue, and saying that "Definitely there was a stage in tamil history where there was no sanskrit or dharmashastra influence." may at best relate to the
paleolithic/neolithic stage but that also will depend on archaeological findings.

I will agree with George Hart that vedic-brahmins started arriving in tamilakam from 100 AD to 700 AD. But during this time the vedic brahmins were still taking over the roles of the panars, anthanars, etc. IMO, Sanskrit influence established itself full scale in the 8th and 9th centuries AD.
If Tolkappiar could mention the four castes, vedas, aindram grammar, etc., and if the mythology of Agastya has anything to do with migration of some people from Dwaraka (one view is that these were the vELir) to the Tamil country, Hart's thesis may not be acceptable unless we have enough data to show that before 100 A.D. Tamizhakam was not even aware of vedas and brahmins. The Girnar rock-edict of Ashoka dated 257 B.C. mentions Cholas and Pandyas and says
"Everywhere [2] within Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's domain, and among the people beyond the borders, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Satiyaputras, the Keralaputras, as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochos rules, and among the kings who are neighbors of Antiochos,[3] everywhere has Beloved -of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, made provision for two types of medical treatment: medical treatment for humans and medical treatment for animals. Wherever
medical herbs suitable for humans or animals are not available, I have had them imported and grown. Wherever medical roots or fruits are not available I have had them imported and grown. Along roads I have had wells dug and trees planted for the benefit of humans and animals.[4] "

If, as Ashoka claims, the Cholas and the Pandyas were in good terms with him and if as he (Ashoka) claims, there were facilities for medical treatment of man and animal, wells and trees etc., it is difficult to envisage that all such facilities would have been made use of by the Tamil people of those days (BC 3rd. century) without even an idea of the northern empire, its emperor and its people, language etc. I agree that the Tamils might not even have known sanskrit but that the
northern people spoke a different tongue would definitely be known here.

Tolkappiar also says —

இயற்சொல் திரிசொல் திசைச்சொல் வடசொல் என்று
அனைத்தே செய்யுள் ஈட்டச் சொல்லே.. -pg-63

வடசொல் கிளவி வட எழுத்து ஒரீஇ
எழுத்தொடு புணர்ந்த சொல் ஆகும்மே – pg-64
(Influence of sanskrit over Tamil – breaking the dravidian racism | Senthilraja’s blog)

Hence it will appear that there must have been some contact between the sanskrit-vedic-dharmasastric north and the pre-sangam south itself. If so, can we rule out infiltration/migration of people (of all castes, for that matter) from very early times themselves to the south and also visits for trade, pilgrimages, etc., between south and north?

Lets view this from the temple tradtions pov. The institution of patikam patuvar first appears in the late ninth century Pallava inscriptions. It became part of temple worship under the early Cholas (10th century). Under Rajaraja I (11th century) it became firmly established as a pre-eminent socio-religious activity of the temple. The ritual singer were velala Ouduvars.

Now the period of the hymns are interesting. Because the saiva hymns absorbed various influences into its fold through the institution of the temple, including folk elements, Sanskritic forms and sects like the Kapalikas and Mahavratins. The hagiographical works expanded and brought the Siddhas into their fold during this time period, by canonising Siddha Tirumular.

So Saivism now established itself, under royal patronage, as the dominant religion, starting with the Chola rulers after Parantaka I (A.D. 907-955), and becoming consolidated by the time of Rajaraja I and Rajendra I (A.D. 985-1044) as the royal cult. It is after Cuntarar, whose work Tiruttontattokai lists all the Saiva bhakti saints (62 of them before him); that the three groups of hymns of the trio become a single text, structured as the Tiruppatikam and was introduced
into temple rituals.

I hold somewhat different views. We do not seem to know the older temple worship practices. Some scholars say that the Tamizh word "poosai, poosei" meant adorning the idol with flowers and that was the main facet of the temple worship. The devolution of work to the "Othuvaars" or "patikam paaDuvOr" may signify the advent of the brahminic style of pooja in the temples and demotion of the older class of native Tamil priests to the othuvaar class which imo was considered non-brahmin, ab initio, I think.

Cholas were held to be Saiva Siddhanta adherents. If this is true, we would have seen real Tamil names like -kiLLi, -sembiyan, -vaLavan, etc., but the medieval Cholas were conspicuous with their sanskritic names, Parantaka, Raja Raja etc. Hence there seems to be a basic error in saying that Saivism gets established during the medieval Cholas; if anything, I will hazard that the medieval Cholas might have been responsible for deposing the old form of Temple worship and bringing in the separate priestly brahmins from out of the northern immigrants who gradually switched over from their traditional Dharmasastra views to the Saiva Siddhanta system, thus forming the Gurukkal community - kudumi, sacred thread, some amount of sanskrit knowledge, and all - as a "fallen" group and that is why even today certain distance is there socially between the two groups.

In my view, therefore, the Gurukkals or Temple priests and the true Brahmins would have got more or less equal recognition and munificence from royalty during the medieval Chola regime. All that is said about the Saiva hymns may be true but that will not alter, imo, the conclusion above.

The messages encoded in these hymns are clear. There is a a voiced protest against caste hierarchy in the religious sphere, emphasis on devotion to a personal god, an emerging sacred geography and concept of pilgrimage, and above all a sense of community above caste.

What we see is that caste structures existed ofcourse, but were not rigid once upon a time. Caste by itself is not discrimination, especially if they allow people

to move from one caste to another. Sangam literature does mention caste, but does not prohibit change of caste (occupation) with regard to temple activites.

It would seem like anyone could become an anthanar or a panar bard. There was no birth right on temple roles, bhakti and moksham.
Manikkavasagar did not develop a defiant attitude towards the caste rules, and so it is difficult to appreciate the statement that "There is a a voiced protest against caste hierarchy in the religious sphere". If "community above caste" was the credo of the Saivaite poets, what was their concept of "community"? Did it simply replace caste as a label?

But this fluid system changed. It was replaced by the dharmashastra type of rigid caste structure. It must have happened because Sanskrit influence became dominant. Sangam literature does not mention Pallavas and is centered around the muvender trio, Chola, Pandya, Chera. The Pallavas supposedly brought Sanskrit to tamilkam. From there on things must have started changing. But the social-clamp-down should be atrributed to the cholas IMO.

Sanskrit brought local tamil kings into mythical sanskrit genealogy. From around 8th century onwards sanskrit became continuously used by various rulers. In the Velvikudi inscriptions of the Pandyas of the eighth/ninth century AD, Tamil was used side by side with Sanskrit, giving two prasastis, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil.

But apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil but restricted their prasastis to a single language, Sanskrit.

Typically, Sanskrit prasasti provides rulers with a purely mythological ancestry. In the case of Pandyas, it traces their dynasty back to its mythic ancestor Pandya, who at the beginning of the present Kalpa was reborn as Budha, son of the Moon, and so on. This is in contrast with the tamil prasasti which is a piece of detailed local history enumerating seven ancestors of the then present king Netunchezian with many details of battles and conquests.

The concept of "high born" with such mythical ancestries became prevalant with sanskrit influence. This resulting in social caste-rigidity was only a matter of time IMO. After the rise of the brahmins, what happened in chola domains, is the rest which i have already dealt in the Arakshan thread.

When we find that the North-South contacts existed from very early times and the possibility of brahmin/vaisya/sudra influx, at least in negligible quantities, cannot be ruled out, it requires much more solid evidence to prove that "The Pallavas supposedly brought Sanskrit to tamilkam." (note the word "supposedly" here; beyond supposition and some rock-cut "prasastis" we have no irrefutable evidence to go by. "Prasastis" might most probably have been written in single language in some cases merely because the engravers of that area did not know the other languages. Hence, to generalize on the basis of a few prasastis here and there and then forming very important conclusions, may not be appropriate, imho. For example you say, "In the Velvikudi inscriptions of the Pandyas of the eighth/ninth century AD, Tamil was used side by side with Sanskrit, giving two prasastis, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil.

But apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil but restricted their prasastis to a single language, Sanskrit. Velvikkudi, as the name indicates must have had a brahmin population, engravers knowing Sanskrit, etc. But to expect that from this single instance we can form generalized opinion like "apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil", etc., is too far-fetched, according to me.

From the above promotion of Sanskrit, you go to mythical ancestry in Prasastis >sanskrit influence> caste rigidity. I cannot somehow agree that any ruler of those times would have needed all such circuitous methods to implement whatever social changes/alterations he desired. We have the claim from some quarters that the Vijayanagara rulers appointed Nayaks, dispossessed the original "Mallar" landholder cultivators and made them to be called "pallars" and decreed that they will be scheduled (untouchable class) serfs to the appointed landholders. The Pallu Paattus depict cruel landlords from vaishnavas also. This I feel goes against your pet notion that only the smarthas were the repository of everything evil.

So sir, imo, it would be a speculative assumption to think that social codes of temple-priests were similar to dharmashastras. Shamans, and ritualism centred around idols have existed in various tribes. There is no evidence that they involved in the dharmashastra-type of social clamp-downs.
Do we have to assume that the temple-priests are necessarily a development of the Shamans? Even assuming that the Shamans did not have social stratification and rigid castes, is it not possible that some of the meemamsaka brahmins from the north could have taken up the Temple-priest's job and eventually seceded from their original, migrant group? As of today I believe (but have not found anything to support this) the Gurukkal community essentially follows the Dharmasastras in so far as their "samskaras" are concerend; if this is wrong, kindly furnish me with refernces relating to this subject.

Anyways, in tamilakam the emerging scenarion of sanskrit influence seems have given rise to new conflict situations. Conflicts created due to royal patronization of brahmins, and the changing form of "tamil hinduism". A deepening sectarian rivalry emerged between the Saivas and the Vaisnavas. Another rivalry emerged as the Velala community wanted a greater share in the authority structure of the temple through the matha.

The Velalas initiated the process of the composition and organisation of the Saiva Siddhanta canon, in which the Tēvāram is arranged as the first seven books, followed by other books containing hymns of other saints not sanctified till then; and finally organising hagiographical literature and Saiva Siddhanta philosophical treatises. The Vellala elite created a whole series of interpretational techniques to relate Tēvārams to the Saiva Siddhanta. The ritual singers of

Tēvārams (velala ouduvars) were now trained and supported by the mathas. This process of change began after 1200 AD.

So, quite obviously around this time, caste ridification was complete. So much that the velalas had to create a matha to get a greater share of temple roles.
It is not made clear as to how sanskrit influence gave rise to deepening Saiva-Vaishnava conflicts, why Vellala community got restive because of Sanskritic influence, and how these two, along with temple singers of Tēvārams (velala ouduvars) were now trained and supported by the mathas, can be taken as sure proof of complete rigidification of castes. Needs further explanation imho.

[/QUOTE]AFAIK, the terms Chaturvedi Mangalams and Brahmadeyams refer to brahmins (fire priests). The term Devadanam refers to lands donated to temples; which may have been controlled by temple-priests, vellalars and brahmins. But then brahmins took over the temples, so things must have changed.[[/QUOTE]
The vedic brahmins or fire-priests you refer to would not have associated with temple affairs because it was considered improper, against smritis and held to cause a demotion from caste. They would have managed lands and estates included in the Chaturvedimangalams. But is there any supporting evidence to show that the brahmins took over the temples? If so what were their roles and duties in relation to those temples?

It is rather clear, the native-priests (anthanars, etc), were not following smrithis. The roles of anthanars, etc got 'taken over' (hijacked imo) by incoming vedic brahmins, and thereafter smrithi adherence started.

We do not know if the native-priests grew in stature so much that they could get Pallar slaves / serfs. Perhaps in later times (to compete with incoming

brahmins) they adopted smrithis in some places and became transformed into Smartha brahmins (??). Will try to look up details on these points.

Regards.
Here I feel you are equating the antanars of the sangam age with native-priests and keeping them as separate from the vedic brahmins who came down south with their sanskrit and Dharmasastras and spoile things in Tamilnadu of yore. I will be able to accept this view only if the various assumptions made are backed up by reliable evidence/s.
 
(it is quite apparent i prefer not "insist" historical backing in caste issues).

Smt. HH,

If the above is your considered view, I do not think there can be any more discussions on any caste-related point. Each one of us will be free to put forward our views, our biases and our likings in a free-for-all and may be Shri Praveen will have to do the ultimate "locking the thread ceremony";).

I still feel all discussions on any topic, whatever should be based on logically convincing evidence/s. If there is no such back-up, the best we may do is to keep our views/opinions to ourselves and not put them to public view/debate such as in a forum like this. That will surely give rise to vehement posts, name-calling and so on.

PS: You know I was called by Vivek as a "self-hating brahmin" without integrity. So, it does not inconvenience me if you say the smartha brahmins were the (only) villains of the piece in giving rise to the casteist society of India; but I would accept that only if it is proved by persuasive arguments supported by necessary evidence.
 
Smt. HH,

If the above is your considered view, I do not think there can be any more discussions on any caste-related point. Each one of us will be free to put forward our views, our biases and our likings in a free-for-all and may be Shri Praveen will have to do the ultimate "locking the thread ceremony";).

I still feel all discussions on any topic, whatever should be based on logically convincing evidence/s. If there is no such back-up, the best we may do is to keep our views/opinions to ourselves and not put them to public view/debate such as in a forum like this. That will surely give rise to vehement posts, name-calling and so on.

PS: You know I was called by Vivek as a "self-hating brahmin" without integrity. So, it does not inconvenience me if you say the smartha brahmins were the (only) villains of the piece in giving rise to the casteist society of India; but I would accept that only if it is proved by persuasive arguments supported by necessary evidence.


If I am to understand the sentiments of Sangom he requires definite proof of some of the things Happy Hindu has said.

I am trying to make sense of the huge alignment of information that has flooded on this topic.
To be fair to Happy Hindu there were two major reformist movements in the distant past. The Veerasaivaite and the vaishnava movements of Alwars.
She is right when she feels sympathetic to Vaishnavism vis-vis Tamil Nadu. As lot of reforms happened in vaishnavism. However my frank assessment is that neither the present day Vaishnavas or the Gurukkals are so well behaved and anti-caste as is being imagined. Infact I know of situations where smartha castes have tried to liberalize caste movements in temples, but they have been vigorously opposed by the Gurukkals and others.

What is the special relationship of Vellalas and Gurukkals, it is all a question of dependancy. The Gurukkal were no more dependant on the Vellalars as a poor smartha having employment with a vellalar's institution. Those brahmins who had land were not dependant on the Vellalars and had no worry opposing them. Actually land owning brahmins were quite often at odds with some Vellalars. There were and even now there are Gurukkals who own lands and depend on the work of the low castes. This is true in Tanjore atleast. On the other land there are smarthas even since the 17 th century who were quite poor. The famous personality syama sastri was also supposed to have suffered from poverty.

Did the vellalars put down the low castes because of smritis. No that is not the real reason. Vellalars were as much of feudal lords as the feudal lords in muslim pakistan or medieval Europe. The real damage of the smritis was that prevention of intermarriage and strict demarcation of occupation allowed little mobility. It was detrimental to the people at the bottom and sometimes prevented social mobility of even the brahmins.
 
Smt. HH,

This itself is something to be proved by further research. For example, there is a section of opinion which holds that even Tolkappiar and Tolkappiam tend to indicate Tamil-Sanskrit co-existence and borrowings from the same source of aindram sanskrit grammar. Hence, just making an assumption, like a bolt from the blue, and saying that "Definitely there was a stage in tamil history where there was no sanskrit or dharmashastra influence." may at best relate to the
paleolithic/neolithic stage but that also will depend on archaeological findings.
Dear Sir,

Tholkappiyam dates anywhere between 3rd century BC to 10th century AD. Around 3rd century BC, Satavahana ruled in the andhra regions (to the north of tamilakam). The period of Tholkappiyam coincides with the early Chola period. As already noted from the puranic view Cholas were Vishwamitras offshoots of Andhra-Satavahanas. So ofcourse the tamil-sanskrit coexistence is expected by this period.

However, we do not know if the early cholas imposed birth-based caste rigidity as the later cholas did. The Satavahana empire itself was hindu-buddhist mixed and varna terms were beginning to take root in the andhra country during that period. So definitely there was a period when varna terms and dharmashatras were not in prevalence in this region.

Although Tholkappiyam may point to social intercourse with Sanskrit, it is unknown if birth-orders were strictly imposed in the dharmashastra-style during the sangam period.

Since tamil literature points to protests against hardening of caste structures in 8th century, from linguistic evidence pov definitely we can say that there was a period (before 8th century AD), when rigid-caste structures did not exist.

In this context, it will be plausible to accept that George Hart's thesis about incoming vedic brahmins.

If Tolkappiar could mention the four castes, vedas, aindram grammar, etc., and if the mythology of Agastya has anything to do with migration of some people from Dwaraka (one view is that these were the vELir) to the Tamil country, Hart's thesis may not be acceptable unless we have enough data to show that before 100 A.D. Tamizhakam was not even aware of vedas and brahmins. The Girnar rock-edict of Ashoka dated 257 B.C. mentions Cholas and Pandyas and says
"Everywhere [2] within Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's domain, and among the people beyond the borders, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Satiyaputras, the Keralaputras, as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochos rules, and among the kings who are neighbors of Antiochos,[3] everywhere has Beloved -of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, made provision for two types of medical treatment: medical treatment for humans and medical treatment for animals. Wherever
medical herbs suitable for humans or animals are not available, I have had them imported and grown. Wherever medical roots or fruits are not available I have had them imported and grown. Along roads I have had wells dug and trees planted for the benefit of humans and animals.[4] "

If, as Ashoka claims, the Cholas and the Pandyas were in good terms with him and if as he (Ashoka) claims, there were facilities for medical treatment of man and animal, wells and trees etc., it is difficult to envisage that all such facilities would have been made use of by the Tamil people of those days (BC 3rd. century) without even an idea of the northern empire, its emperor and its people, language etc. I agree that the Tamils might not even have known sanskrit but that the
northern people spoke a different tongue would definitely be known here.

Tolkappiar also says —

இயற்சொல் திரிசொல் திசைச்சொல் வடசொல் என்று
அனைத்தே செய்யுள் ஈட்டச் சொல்லே.. -pg-63

வடசொல் கிளவி வட எழுத்து ஒரீஇ
எழுத்தொடு புணர்ந்த சொல் ஆகும்மே – pg-64
(Influence of sanskrit over Tamil – breaking the dravidian racism | Senthilraja’s blog)

Hence it will appear that there must have been some contact between the sanskrit-vedic-dharmasastric north and the pre-sangam south itself. If so, can we rule out infiltration/migration of people (of all castes, for that matter) from very early times themselves to the south and also visits for trade, pilgrimages, etc., between south and north?
Andhra received Buddhism way before 257 BC, by the time of Buddha himself. Buddhism travelled to Srilanka also. So ofcourse the south had sanskrit influence.

Here, one must note that rigid birth structure come from dharmashastras suported by purvamimasa, and not from vedas and vedanta.

So to put it clearly -- here i am contesting sanskrit influence of the dharmashastra rigid birth-order type. Which the southern lands did not have. Hope i am clear.

I hold somewhat different views. We do not seem to know the older temple worship practices. Some scholars say that the Tamizh word "poosai, poosei" meant adorning the idol with flowers and that was the main facet of the temple worship. The devolution of work to the "Othuvaars" or "patikam paaDuvOr" may signify the advent of the brahminic style of pooja in the temples and demotion of the older class of native Tamil priests to the othuvaar class which imo was considered non-brahmin, ab initio, I think.
Even during colonial period, the vellalars were noted to be priests for various castes. This class definitely has a temple connection, though imo the vellala ouduvars are more properly documented than the rest.

There is a view that poosei form of worship is Jain. Rock-cut temples in andhra are Jain. Unfortunately we do not have evidence of worship forms in tamilkam before the 3rd century BC.

But ye, it seems very probable that incoming brahmins demoted the existing priestly classes (jains?) to non-brahmin position.

Cholas were held to be Saiva Siddhanta adherents. If this is true, we would have seen real Tamil names like -kiLLi, -sembiyan, -vaLavan, etc., but the medieval Cholas were conspicuous with their sanskritic names, Parantaka, Raja Raja etc. Hence there seems to be a basic error in saying that Saivism gets established during the medieval Cholas; if anything, I will hazard that the medieval Cholas might have been responsible for deposing the old form of Temple worship and bringing in the separate priestly brahmins from out of the northern immigrants who gradually switched over from their traditional Dharmasastra views to the Saiva Siddhanta system, thus forming the Gurukkal community - kudumi, sacred thread, some amount of sanskrit knowledge, and all - as a "fallen" group and that is why even today certain distance is there socially between the two groups.
sir, imo, just by the names of the kings like parantaka chola, rajaraja chola, etc, i feel we cannot contest the establishment of Saivism by medieval cholas. Because the development of Saiva Siddhanta is pretty well documented from inscriptional and linguistic evidence.

Also, it will be difficult to say if the gurukkals switched over from dharmashastra to saiva siddhanta system. I hope we can find info from when gurukkals followed Baudhayana smrithi.

It is quite possible the gurukkals came from northern lands and were following baudhayana smrithi when they arrived itself. Since the chola kings were brahmanical, so possibly it did not matter that gurukkals were following dharmashatras; although checks must have been in place to prevent the gurukkals from taking to the profession of the Cholas.

Curiously, Baudhayana belonged to the Kanva branch and his Baudhayana smrithi mentions Skanda.

In my view, therefore, the Gurukkals or Temple priests and the true Brahmins would have got more or less equal recognition and munificence from royalty during the medieval Chola regime. All that is said about the Saiva hymns may be true but that will not alter, imo, the conclusion above.
Am not sure what would constitute a true brahmin -- would it be a performer of vedic rites from the trayi-vedas?

When it comes to recornition and munifence, we must realise that the system of annadanam replaced the system of brahmadeya in the nayaka period (shulman, et al). The preferred danam to a brahmin before the nayaka period was brahmadeya grant of land. Which is basically why the brahmins were always a landed group.

Manikkavasagar did not develop a defiant attitude towards the caste rules, and so it is difficult to appreciate the statement that "There is a a voiced protest against caste hierarchy in the religious sphere". If "community above caste" was the credo of the Saivaite poets, what was their concept of "community"? Did it simply replace caste as a label?
There were 63 nayanmars, so if one manikavasagar did not develop defiant attitude towards caste it will not make much difference. The paper "Patikam Patuvar: Ritual Singing as a Means of Communication in Early Medieval South India" by R Champalakshmi notes the development of the thevaram hymns with anti-caste sentiments. The "community above caste" is community of saiva devotees without caste. Also, saiva siddhanta has always been associated with vellalas, and according to Ishimatsu in "The making of Tamil Shaiva Siddhanta" the emphasis was on caste linkages rather than caste barriers. And caste linkages are expressed in the transmission of the rights of preceptorship from Brahman to Shudra. All this will make sense because it seems the Chola time created competition among the two main land-owning groups, Brahmans and Velalas (Stein 1982; Peterson 1989:55). So there was opposition from Vellalas towards the incoming brahmins and hardening caste-system.

When we find that the North-South contacts existed from very early times and the possibility of brahmin/vaisya/sudra influx, at least in negligible quantities, cannot be ruled out, it requires much more solid evidence to prove that "The Pallavas supposedly brought Sanskrit to tamilkam." (note the word "supposedly" here; beyond supposition and some rock-cut "prasastis" we have no irrefutable evidence to go by. "Prasastis" might most probably have been written in single language in some cases merely because the engravers of that area did not know the other languages. Hence, to generalize on the basis of a few prasastis here and there and then forming very important conclusions, may not be appropriate, imho. For example you say, "In the Velvikudi inscriptions of the Pandyas of the eighth/ninth century AD, Tamil was used side by side with Sanskrit, giving two prasastis, one in Sanskrit and one in Tamil.

But apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil but restricted their prasastis to a single language, Sanskrit. Velvikkudi, as the name indicates must have had a brahmin population, engravers knowing Sanskrit, etc. But to expect that from this single instance we can form generalized opinion like "apparently the Pandyas were trying to elevate Tamil on an equal scale as Sanskrit. Because Cholas and Pallavas usually left inscriptions in tamil", etc., is too far-fetched, according to me.
Sorry sir, i too would not generalise based on one or two inscriptions / prasastis. I should not have used the word "supposedly". Because the use of sanskrit in inscriptions, etc in tamilkam has been pretty well documented. Its not based on a few prasastis. Please refer to the paper "Old Tamil Cahkam literature and the so-called Cankam period" by herman tiekan and "The Early Pallavas of Kánchípura" by Foulkes. The use of Sanskrit in prasastis/inscriptions was first made by Pallavas. Also, if we may note, we do not know who the Velvis were in the Pandya period so using the word "brahmin" in place of anthanars, velvis, etc is presumptive speculation.

From the above promotion of Sanskrit, you go to mythical ancestry in Prasastis >sanskrit influence> caste rigidity. I cannot somehow agree that any ruler of those times would have needed all such circuitous methods to implement whatever social changes/alterations he desired.
The mythical ancestry created by sanskrit prasastis and incoming brahmins cannot be discounted in helping to create caste-rigidity. Creating geneologies is a trait noticed in northern lands also. There are quite a few kshatriyazation events described in "State formation and Rajput myth in tribal central India" (published in 'Man in India" (Jan-Mar 1962)). Martin Orans described an early case where a munda tribal attracted brahmins; and the brahmins sanskritised his rituals and manufactured a rajput geneology for him (ref: "A tribe in search of a great tradition" by Orans).

We have the claim from some quarters that the Vijayanagara rulers appointed Nayaks, dispossessed the original "Mallar" landholder cultivators and made them to be called "pallars" and decreed that they will be scheduled (untouchable class) serfs to the appointed landholders.
The claim that pallars were mallas is a claim made mainly by Deva Asirvatham. They also wanted to change the name of the caste to "devendra kula "vellalar"". Which is obviously a bid to elevate the caste like komati to arya vaisya, and dalits into namasudras-brahmins. Obviously the tamil pallars were slaves and went by the same name in the chola domains itself. If they were Mallars (that is mavalis / mallas), they should be able to provide the requisite historical basis.

The Pallu Paattus depict cruel landlords from vaishnavas also. This I feel goes against your pet notion that only the smarthas were the repository of everything evil.
Vaishnavas are also following smrithis, is it not. Sir, if i come across as prejudiced, no probs, let it be. However, you please continue to provide counter-info. I will happily stand corrected. Also, the readers are free to pick what they want from both sides of an argument. So, i wud request you not to cast allegations of "pet-notions", etc.

Do we have to assume that the temple-priests are necessarily a development of the Shamans? Even assuming that the Shamans did not have social stratification and rigid castes, is it not possible that some of the meemamsaka brahmins from the north could have taken up the Temple-priest's job and eventually seceded from their original, migrant group? As of today I believe (but have not found anything to support this) the Gurukkal community essentially follows the Dharmasastras in so far as their "samskaras" are concerend; if this is wrong, kindly furnish me with refernces relating to this subject.
Well, obviously idol-worship is non-vedic. Maybe it was a sharaman jain tradition or tribal shaman tradition or simply a tribal culture (obviously not related to the religion of the trayi-veda fire-priests). Am quite aware gurukkals follow baudhayana smrithi so am not contesting that.

It is not made clear as to how sanskrit influence gave rise to deepening Saiva-Vaishnava conflicts, why Vellala community got restive because of Sanskritic influence, and how these two, along with temple singers of Tēvārams (velala ouduvars) were now trained and supported by the mathas, can be taken as sure proof of complete rigidification of castes. Needs further explanation imho.
Well the paper by champalalshmi conveys that cholas established saiva as a royal religion. So obviously vaishnavas felt alienation. Saivism got royal patronage which vaishnavism did not. Vellala community got restive as they wanted a greater role in temple functions / activities. By this time the incoming-brahmins had taken over temples. Pasurams and nayanars convey anti-caste sentiment wrt religion so it obvious that by this time rigidification of castes existed.

The vedic brahmins or fire-priests you refer to would not have associated with temple affairs because it was considered improper, against smritis and held to cause a demotion from caste. They would have managed lands and estates included in the Chaturvedimangalams. But is there any supporting evidence to show that the brahmins took over the temples? If so what were their roles and duties in relation to those temples?
If brahmins had not taken over temples what was the necessity for velalas to go to such lengths to get a role in temple functions / activities?

Crossing aryavarta itself was prohibbited. If one has already crossed the boundries i suppose he wud not be threatened by demotion of caste if he takes up a job of temple-priest to make a living.

Here I feel you are equating the antanars of the sangam age with native-priests and keeping them as separate from the vedic brahmins who came down south with their sanskrit and Dharmasastras and spoile things in Tamilnadu of yore. I will be able to accept this view only if the various assumptions made are backed up by reliable evidence/s.
I think i have been providing sufficient evidence and quoting relevant sources.
 
Smt. HH,

If the above is your considered view, I do not think there can be any more discussions on any caste-related point. Each one of us will be free to put forward our views, our biases and our likings in a free-for-all and may be Shri Praveen will have to do the ultimate "locking the thread ceremony";).

I still feel all discussions on any topic, whatever should be based on logically convincing evidence/s. If there is no such back-up, the best we may do is to keep our views/opinions to ourselves and not put them to public view/debate such as in a forum like this. That will surely give rise to vehement posts, name-calling and so on.

PS: You know I was called by Vivek as a "self-hating brahmin" without integrity. So, it does not inconvenience me if you say the smartha brahmins were the (only) villains of the piece in giving rise to the casteist society of India; but I would accept that only if it is proved by persuasive arguments supported by necessary evidence.
Sir, i request you not to read so much into just that one sentence. Also, i do agree very much about necessary evidence.
 
If I am to understand the sentiments of Sangom he requires definite proof of some of the things Happy Hindu has said.

I am trying to make sense of the huge alignment of information that has flooded on this topic.
To be fair to Happy Hindu there were two major reformist movements in the distant past. The Veerasaivaite and the vaishnava movements of Alwars.
She is right when she feels sympathetic to Vaishnavism vis-vis Tamil Nadu. As lot of reforms happened in vaishnavism. However my frank assessment is that neither the present day Vaishnavas or the Gurukkals are so well behaved and anti-caste as is being imagined. Infact I know of situations where smartha castes have tried to liberalize caste movements in temples, but they have been vigorously opposed by the Gurukkals and others.

What is the special relationship of Vellalas and Gurukkals, it is all a question of dependancy. The Gurukkal were no more dependant on the Vellalars as a poor smartha having employment with a vellalar's institution. Those brahmins who had land were not dependant on the Vellalars and had no worry opposing them. Actually land owning brahmins were quite often at odds with some Vellalars. There were and even now there are Gurukkals who own lands and depend on the work of the low castes. This is true in Tanjore atleast. On the other land there are smarthas even since the 17 th century who were quite poor. The famous personality syama sastri was also supposed to have suffered from poverty.

Did the vellalars put down the low castes because of smritis. No that is not the real reason. Vellalars were as much of feudal lords as the feudal lords in muslim pakistan or medieval Europe. The real damage of the smritis was that prevention of intermarriage and strict demarcation of occupation allowed little mobility. It was detrimental to the people at the bottom and sometimes prevented social mobility of even the brahmins.

Dear Shri Subbudu,

Smartas in the present times means, generally speaking, all those brahmins who are neither Vaishnavites (Thenkalai and Vadakalai), Madhwas, Tulu brahmins, Namboothiris and Gurukkals, imo. HH seems to believe that since it is the smriti texts which lay down the caste/varna for offsprings from mixed male-female unions (samkara unions), and since one group of brahmins goes by the label "smaartas", all the mischief relating to not allowing claims of higher Varnas by different groups of people, Temple-entry claims by certain groups which were not allowed entry, etc., was the making of the smartas and smartas only.

I have tried to indicate that this "smarta" was a label to distinguish those brahmins from the common pool who did not change over to the Vaishnava schism when Ramanuja and his philosophy were in the ascendance. In reality the label Sankarites, advaitins or even sarva devites would have described them and their religious and/or philosophical leanings. But the other relevant point is that all these brahmins had to have some code of conduct to regulate their social and familial life.

For example the Vaikhanasas also follow a sutra (which is their Dharma sastra) and the following extract from is relevant:

Surviving Vaikhanasa sutras are no older than the fourth century CE. Inscriptions from perhaps the eighth century CE identify Vaikhanasas as temple priests, and from the end of the tenth century they are prominently mentioned in South Indian inscriptions. Vaikhanasas were the priests of Vishnu temples. They were not merely ritual priests, but were trusted with administering the temples and their lands. With the rise of the Shri Vaishnavas the Vaikhanasas declined in their temple role. Rāmānuja, leader of the Shri Vaishnavas and the first organiser of temple administration at Srirangam Temple, replaced the Vaikhanasa system of worship with the more liberal Pañcaratra system, expanded the fivefold division of temple servants into tenfold, and gave an important part in ritual to sudra, lowest caste, ascetics. This change spread to other Vaishnava temples. However, the Vaikhanasas continued to be important. Today Vaikhanasas are the chief priests in more than half of the Vaishnava temples in the South Indian states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, and parts of Karnataka. Their present day temple activities are worthy of attention, as are their efforts to work for community integrity which is threatened by increasing social and technological changes.
[h=2][edit] Vaikhanasam[/h] "The Vaikhanasa-sutra belonging to the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series has been edited by Dr. W. Caland and translated into English with a learned introduction. This sutra - text forms part of the Krishna Yajurveda tradition and derives its name probably from Vaikhanas who was its author. The work contains three types of Sutras —the Shrauta, the Grhya and the Dharma which altogether may be designated as Smarta-sutra. There is no doubt that both the portions have definitely one author, since the style of the Grhya and Dharma-sutras is the same. Moreover, the author himself promises to continue a topic discussed in the Grhya- portion again in the books on Dharma. The work is on the whole a small one but it contains in the main the same materials as are treated by its predecessors." (Vaikhanasasmartasutram: The Domestic Rules and Sacred Laws of the Vaikhanasa School Belonging to the Krishna Yajurveda/translated into English by W. Caland.)
(Vaikhanasas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

You will observe that these Vaikhanasas also have their grihya, dharma and srauta sutras which forms part of Krishna yajurveda.

Even the Gurukkal community in Tamil Nadu is believed to be originally Vadama brahmins who came (or were brought by the medieval Cholas) and acted as teachers (and perhaps also as the Temple priests) of the Cholas. (Gurukkal brahmins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) That is why I have been requesting HH to back up whatever her theories are, with sufficient, reliable material. But she has said that "it is quite apparent i prefer not "insist" historical backing in caste issues". I have also read, in some books on early south indian history that the gurukkals were original vedic brahmins who came to looked down upon by the other brahmins during the course of time. I do not know which code of conduct regulates their social life and samskaras but apparently their poonal system, kudumi and marriage with other brahmins (though rare cases only) give me the impression that the gurukkals are also quintessential brahmins with the Saiva Agama, Tiruppatikam etc., teachings to enable them to do the priestly work well.

In the light of the above I am unable to accept HH's proposition putting all fault on the supposed smartas in preference to the general category "brahmins" which was her wont till sometime back and with which I also agree.

Hope my views are clear to you.

 
In the light of the above I am unable to accept HH's proposition putting all fault on the supposed smartas in preference to the general category "brahmins" which was her wont till sometime back and with which I also agree.
Alright sir, i get it now. I shall use the term 'brahmins' from now on...

Regards.
 
One cannot fault these people who started making and continue to make falsified kshatriya claims in a bid to get social recognition thru caste. I stand by my view that NBs are giving up caste. Just because they speak about caste identities does not mean they are holding on to it rigidly, or holding on to associated discrimination.

In short, NB casteists will not be faulted. But brahmin casteists will be! Sheer hypocrisy.

During colonial period it is rather clear how much caste mattered.

It appears that it matters even today. Unabashed NB casteists in this forum are able to get away as long they indulge in brahmin bashing.

Its a bigger hypocricy to wash off hands after creating casteism.

Casteism was created to benefit NB varnas such as kshatriyas and vaisyas. As long as these NBs hold on to caste, nothing can be done about it!

EVR created compartmental reservations so that specific castes (dalits) can get reservations instead of forward-caste NBs usurping things.

EVR gave a pittance to dalits and kept a lion's share to NBFCs. This fraud is perpetrated until this day in TN.

The point is, no one needs 'brahmins' in tamilnadu to help it prosper.

Thanks for politely asking the brahmins to get out of TN.

Non-tamil Outsiders asking Tamil brahmins to get out is not new to them.
 
Smt HH,

Since your typing speed is fantastic whereas my speed is dead slow, I may not be able to give point-wise comments. But in general don't you agree that you have access to several research papers and other material (the links for which you have not furnished) which other readers of these pages may not be able to read. While your conclusions may be very valid and supported by enough incontrovertible evidence, I still feel that the requirement for a post in a public forum (not an experts' group) is to furnish all necessary data and information so that any reader will be able to trace the conclusion from whatever background material you have. Towards this end I have made some portions in the above post into bold fonts and given my short comments in blue.

I used the word pet notion because of the zeal with which you tend to project a particular notion without considering whether your readers have been placed in a position to appreciate the point. If it was not proper I request your excuse, please.




Dear Sir,

Tholkappiyam dates anywhere between 3rd century BC to 10th century AD. Around 3rd century BC, Satavahana ruled in the andhra regions (to the north of tamilakam). The period of Tholkappiyam coincides with the early Chola period. As already noted from the puranic view Cholas were Vishwamitras offshoots of Andhra-Satavahanas. So ofcourse the tamil-sanskrit coexistence is expected by this period.

However, we do not know if the early cholas imposed birth-based caste rigidity as the later cholas did. (If it was the later Cholas who imposed caste-based rigidity then the smarta brahmins were probably only accessories to the crime, and not the criminals themselves. Further Vaishnavism must have gained ground only during Rajendra Chola II's time; till then all brahmins were smartas.)The Satavahana empire itself was hindu-buddhist mixed and varna terms were beginning to take root in the andhra country during that period. So definitely there was a period when varna terms and dharmashatras were not in prevalence in this region. (Of course varna system must have been introduced at some point of time and so, a casteless, varnaless society must have existed prior to that; this will be true for any region. But my point is we must furnish adequate material to show that there are literary or epigraphic evidence to show that the caste-varna segregation was not in practice. Buddhist society in the north also survived with castes/varnas only.)

Although Tholkappiyam may point to social intercourse with Sanskrit, it is unknown if birth-orders were strictly imposed in the dharmashastra-style during the sangam period.

Since tamil literature points to protests against hardening of caste structures in 8th century, from linguistic evidence pov definitely we can say that there was a period (before 8th century AD), when rigid-caste structures did not exist. (Is it possible to provide some references dealing with these protests against hardening of caste structures and from the said period?)

In this context, it will be plausible to accept that George Hart's thesis about incoming vedic brahmins.


Andhra received Buddhism way before 257 BC, by the time of Buddha himself. Buddhism travelled to Srilanka also. So ofcourse the south had sanskrit influence.

Here, one must note that rigid birth structure come from dharmashastras suported by purvamimasa, and not from vedas and vedanta.

So to put it clearly -- here i am contesting sanskrit influence of the dharmashastra rigid birth-order type. Which the southern lands did not have. Hope i am clear. ( I am not too sure if the early Tamizhakam was any less rigorous than the dharmasastra-led system which came in later on. Are there literary evidences to show that a person could chose his occupation and, as a consequence thereof move upward socially?)

Even during colonial period, the vellalars were noted to be priests for various castes. This class definitely has a temple connection, (since this blanket statement unsupported by anything other than some "notice" of priestly duties for vatious castes - which will not make the vellalar to be connected with temples- is the only thing that can be brought up, I think we cannot accept Vellalar's interest in temples.) though imo the vellala ouduvars (Othuvaars were singers and possibly received payments for their services; why they wanted control over temple management is not clearly brought out.)are more properly documented than the rest.

There is a view that poosei form of worship is Jain. Rock-cut temples in andhra are Jain. Unfortunately we do not have evidence of worship forms in tamilkam before the 3rd century BC.

But ye, it seems very probable that incoming brahmins demoted the existing priestly classes (jains?) to non-brahmin position. (Temples in Tamil Nadu are rarely rock-cut I suppose. Also if the priests were Jain I do not think Appar would have tolerated it nor the other two whose verses spew venom on camaNarkaL. And, if the Jains were demoted to non-brahmin positions, there must be some reference to it in history, I think. All available accounts generally say the buddhists and jains were killed or that they ran off to the mountains for safety.)

sir, imo, just by the names of the kings like parantaka chola, rajaraja chola, etc, i feel we cannot contest the establishment of Saivism by medieval cholas. Because the development of Saiva Siddhanta is pretty well documented from inscriptional and linguistic evidence.(Not clear; do you say that the Saiva Siddhanta was well developed even before the medieval cholas or the opposite?)

Also, it will be difficult to say if the gurukkals switched over from dharmashastra to saiva siddhanta system. I hope we can find info from when gurukkals followed Baudhayana smrithi.

It is quite possible the gurukkals came from northern lands and were following baudhayana smrithi when they arrived itself. Since the chola kings were brahmanical, so possibly it did not matter that gurukkals were following dharmashatras; although checks must have been in place to prevent the gurukkals from taking to the profession of the Cholas.

Curiously, Baudhayana belonged to the Kanva branch and his Baudhayana smrithi mentions Skanda. () Gurukkals must have some code regulating their samskaras and prescribing the dos and donts for them. Whatever that is, it is their Dharmasastra. If they still follow Baudhayana - which is one of the early smritis - then the gurukkals must have belonged to vedic brahmanism at some point of time.


Am not sure what would constitute a true brahmin -- would it be a performer of vedic rites from the trayi-vedas? (Since temple priesthood was considered unfit for smarta brahmins, I tried to use the word true brahmins to denote those who did not take up the temple jobs.)

When it comes to recornition and munifence, we must realise that the system of annadanam replaced the system of brahmadeya in the nayaka period (shulman, et al). The preferred danam to a brahmin before the nayaka period was brahmadeya grant of land. Which is basically why the brahmins were always a landed group. (is any record available to support this observation? AFAI have read, the Brahmadeya lands were common property for a large group and the agricultural lands were managed by a group - like trustees - which later on can be identified with the Brahmana samoohams. Naturally, the brahmins other than the trustee managers could not be landholders under the brahmadeyam system. Is my info wrong?)


There were 63 nayanmars, so if one manikavasagar did not develop defiant attitude towards caste it will not make much difference. The paper "Patikam Patuvar: Ritual Singing as a Means of Communication in Early Medieval South India" by R Champalakshmi notes the development of the thevaram hymns with anti-caste sentiments. The "community above caste" is community of saiva devotees without caste. Also, saiva siddhanta has always been associated with vellalas, and according to Ishimatsu in "The making of Tamil Shaiva Siddhanta" the emphasis was on caste linkages rather than caste barriers. And caste linkages are expressed in the transmission of the rights of preceptorship from Brahman to Shudra. (not at all clear to me; here is a group which does not differentiate on the basis of birth-based caste. All saiva devotees are equal. Then how could anyone make an observation that the rights of preceptorship passed on from Brahman to shudra, unless it is agreed that caste awareness was alive and vigorous within the saivite fold?)


All this will make sense because it seems the Chola time created competition (for what, how and in what approximate period) among the two main land-owning groups, Brahmans and Velalas (Stein 1982; Peterson 1989:55). So there was opposition from Vellalas towards the incoming brahmins and hardening caste-system.


Sorry sir, i too would not generalise based on one or two inscriptions / prasastis. I should not have used the word "supposedly". Because the use of sanskrit in inscriptions, etc in tamilkam has been pretty well documented. Its not based on a few prasastis. Please refer to the paper "Old Tamil Cahkam literature and the so-called Cankam period" by herman tiekan and "The Early Pallavas of Kánchípura" by Foulkes. The use of Sanskrit in prasastis/inscriptions was first made by Pallavas. Also, if we may note, we do not know who the Velvis were in the Pandya period so using the word "brahmin" in place of anthanars, velvis, etc is presumptive speculation. (Can you provide the links from where these can be accessed, downloaded?)


The mythical ancestry created by sanskrit prasastis and incoming brahmins cannot be discounted in helping to create caste-rigidity. Creating geneologies is a trait noticed in northern lands also. There are quite a few kshatriyazation events described in "State formation and Rajput myth in tribal central India" (published in 'Man in India" (Jan-Mar 1962)). Martin Orans described an early case where a munda tribal attracted brahmins; and the brahmins sanskritised his rituals and manufactured a rajput geneology for him (ref: "A tribe in search of a great tradition" by Orans). (Can you provide the links from where these can be accessed, downloaded?)



The claim that pallars were mallas is a claim made mainly by Deva Asirvatham. They also wanted to change the name of the caste to "devendra kula "vellalar"". Which is obviously a bid to elevate the caste like komati to arya vaisya, and dalits into namasudras-brahmins. Obviously the tamil pallars were slaves and went by the same name in the chola domains itself. If they were Mallars (that is mavalis / mallas), they should be able to provide the requisite historical basis. (if they now turn around and quote you "it is quite apparent i prefer not "insist" historical backing in caste issues" how will you react please?)


Vaishnavas are also following smrithis, is it not. Sir, if i come across as prejudiced, no probs, let it be. However, you please continue to provide counter-info. I will happily stand corrected. Also, the readers are free to pick what they want from both sides of an argument. So, i wud request you not to cast allegations of "pet-notions", etc. (Re. my use of the word pet notion I have already clarified. i will not use it any more.)


Well, obviously idol-worship is non-vedic. Maybe it was a sharaman jain tradition or tribal shaman tradition or simply a tribal culture (obviously not related to the religion of the trayi-veda fire-priests). Am quite aware gurukkals follow baudhayana smrithi so am not contesting that.


Well the paper by champalalshmi conveys that cholas established saiva as a royal religion. So obviously vaishnavas felt alienation. Saivism got royal patronage which vaishnavism did not. Vellala community got restive as they wanted a greater role in temple functions / activities. By this time the incoming-brahmins had taken over temples. Pasurams and nayanars convey anti-caste sentiment wrt religion so it obvious that by this time rigidification of castes existed. (Vaishnavism in any significant form must have arisen only after Ramanujacharya imho and by then medieval chola regime was more than half-way. So, Vaishnavism originated in a strongly saivite environment and probably its very strong anti-siva streak has something to do with this fact. I am not so well-versed in the devotional literature but my general impression is that these depict an egalitarian society or at least a desire therefor but there is no direct anti-caste exhortation or condemnation of the caste system. may be you can elaboraate with suitable examples.

If what I say is right, the conclusion "so it obvious that by this time rigidification of castes existed" will not be relevant.)

If brahmins had not taken over temples what was the necessity for velalas to go to such lengths to get a role in temple functions / activities? (can there not be any other possibility like making their aagamic style of worship? Since there is no clear evidence to show that brahmins had taken over temples, I think it may not be correct to jump to this one probability as the definite truth.)

Crossing aryavarta itself was prohibbited. If one has already crossed the boundries i suppose he wud not be threatened by demotion of caste if he takes up a job of temple-priest to make a living.(Since neither you or I implemented the smriti dictats and since the smritis themselves do not clearly state that "these laws will not apply outside aaryaavarta", I will not make such comments. If this were true the brahmins must not have even implemented the caste system at all.)


I think i have been providing sufficient evidence and quoting relevant sources.
(But you may also give the urls and if these are not accessible to the public - like academic papers - pl. provide some sufficient information contained therein which will buttress your arguments.)
 
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