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[sangom]

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Shri PJ,


There is something called "Hospital Management". Under this administration, the admin and HR executives/leaders are advocating, controlling, pressurizing and even forcing Dr's to change their personal views on ethics and morality.

Because, you see, "Hospital" is one among many corporate industries and "business" makes the sense for its existence.



And, it is correct to state that LLB's are too controlling Dr's. Lawyers look for substantial business through erring Dr's/Hospitals and play real game with them, demonstrating their outstanding tactical skills.

Dear Ravi,

If you see carefully, Shri PJ's post mentioned about medical students being managed by MBAs/LLBs. I think it is not yet happening in our parts.

 

[sangom]

Nityananda has got into another controversy.

Godman Nithyananda ignites controversy in Kumbh Mela - Oneindia News

Earlier he had bought his way to the Madurai Adheenam post.

Now he has become the Mahamandaleswar of an Akara.

He has exposed the weakness of some of the Hindu Institutions.

Anyway Nithy seems to be very resourceful. May be he will become a VVIP and ride the Augusta-Westland chopper in future!

 

[sangom]

Actually Mr. Sangom's post was insulting to Gandhi family.

The insult of Mr. JS visiting is like
Mr. Vajpai visiting a brothel, and being photographed in a compromising position with a nakade child.
Nitayanada is a predator, and sex addict.

Surprised to know that Sonia's (not Mohandas') spokesmen are spread all over the world!!

 

[sangom]

Nityananda claimed to be teaching Shiva Sutras until he was caught with the video. The video showed only an ordinary bedroom act. There was no setting for a ritualized act. No question of he being a tantric in such case. He does not claim to be teaching tantra texts either. His only claim to fame are his exercises. Anyone could design a set of coordinated exercises for themselves.

Anyways, figured out something. A fundamentalist christian was probably upset coz i mentioned the priory ritual. Which would mean Jesus Christ came from a lineage of tantrism. And indeed it is not missed in Gnostic teachings (after all shamanism was widespread in the old world). But the highly esoteric teachings were lost or negated or suppressed over time. The Church began propagating their concept of sin and immaculate conception. Sometimes burnt at stake or branded witches, the feminine divinity disappeared forever in european societies.

While a true Christian wud focus on the teachings of Christ (with nothing else mattering as Tom Hanks said in the movie Da vinci Code); some consider such things like a threat to the Church. Those who believe in immaculate conception and such things wud certainly feel threatened. And Sapr333 being a fundamentalist, he must have felt it abusive.

Anyways, rest on email if needed.

Best wishes.

Palindrome,

Or should it be 'palinilap'/'dromemord' both of which are palindromes!

I tend to agree with your hunch that the mention of the priory ritual seems to have upset someone. While we here in this forum do criticize hinduism (because, I for one, view all religions as human-made and exploitative of human gullibility) it is a fact that hinduism is probably the most democratic of religions about which we have 'good knowledge'. Christianity imo ranks even below Islam which has some very good points.
We have many books (novels) in Malayalam which vividly bring out much of the unmentionable things in Christian religion. But I don't know about English and other languages. (In fact I was reading one such novel titled "manushyA! nee maNNAkunnu" by one P. Ayyaneth and this is prescribed reading for M.A. Malayalam in some university here. My reading was for Daisy which will help visually handicapped people/students.)

 

[kunjuppu]

Anyway Nithy seems to be very resourceful. May be he will become a VVIP and ride the Augusta-Westland chopper in future!

nothing surprises me about india anymore in fact brace yourself to be 100% on the mark!!

 

[zebra16]

nothing surprises me about india anymore in fact brace yourself to be 100% on the mark!!

Well the surprise is only beginning. What would be more surprising is that Geoff Hoon, the disgraced former British
Defence Secreatary is one of the top bosses of Augusta Westland. Some would bury their heads in the proverbial sands and will not look at that angle as for them englishmen were after all "aaLa piRavandhan; aaNDa piRavandhan"

They would only smirk at Indians and would put blinkers over their eyes and refuse to acknowledge that the boss of the Italian firm. Finmeccanica was arrested for international corruption scandal and India was a part of the whole wheel.

 

[vgane]

Come on...Let us not convert an innocuous meeting into a big issue...IMO Acharya had met Nitya to thank him for withdrawing the case that was filed by the Ranjitha when Acharya had voiced concern about Nitya taking over the Madurai Adheenam what with hair over his head...Let us not too read too much into this meeting..The place is Kumbh Mela where Sanyasis also meet during the Holy Dip

I think Shri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal is on the right path....Also comments such as Kanch Math is fake etc do more harm to the Tambra.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Further not all Brahmins or Hindus are followers of a particular [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]Mutt[/COLOR] or an Acharya, to take interest in the personal affairs of the Acharya or Mutt head.

Dear Brahmanyan,

Why do you want to gag free opinion? So far no one here has used abusive words.

I am pained to see that the discussion on this subject is going out of control and some members are using abusive language on the community while airing their views on the subject. All are free to post their opinion, but no need to use words which may hurt many others, just because they differ.

I think Brahmanyan is referring to post #15 by TKS. TKS calls hindus and especially brahmins cowards for not standing up for JS. I can understand if it was deemed abusive, although, many have seem to gloss over it. Perhaps, members are used to such abuses as they happen frequently in this forum (when it comes to brahmins) in the name of criticism and free speech

Anyways coming to TKS' charge, I do not think all brahmins completely abandoned JS or Kanchi Mutt when JS was slapped with assault and murder charges. I remember more than a handful tamil brahmins participated in agitations against the government, mostly in chennai. It appeared due process was not followed and the way the case was handled showed arrogance and high-handedness on part of the government (ADMK) headed by JJ. It certainly appeared the case was a result of some fallout between JJ and the Mutt. A website was started to help defeat the propaganda of govt machinery against the Kanchi Mutt. I think it is still regularly updated and the website is run mostly by brahmins. Members can find it here: kanchi-sathya.org - information on the kanchi seer, latest news on the the seer trial, facts about the kanchi mutt :: media :: This is the best brahmins could do, considering they are a miniscule community in TN and their marginalization is near complete there. It is also true some brahmins lost their faith in the Mutt and also in the religious heads. I think it is difficult to keep one's faith as the RHs were/are facing quite serious charges against them.

 

[sarang]

[h=1]Posted without comments. There are two models - one business driven like a corporation - revenue, expenses, growth, profit and the second - doctors, service, reputation. The second type are rare.

S. Premkumar joins Apollo Hospitals as Group CEO, Healthcare services[/h]



We (Dr. Prathap C Reddy, Chairman, Apollo Hospitals Group) are delighted that now complementing our leadership team, we have on board S Premkumar as the Group CEO – Healthcare Services who will actively steer the group’s expansion agenda. Prem is a dynamic individual and is joining us at an opportune point in time when we are poised for a meta-leap in healthcare delivery.

"As the Senior Corporate Officer and Global President for HCL Technologies, he was leading the Financial Services, Healthcare verticals along with strategic leadership of customer proposition innovation, alliances and partnerships, as well as, global expansion. Prem epitomizes a holistic leader who has led line as well as transformational roles.”

RAVI Sir
Thanks, but very rarely it happens, normally Medical profession does not like others to boss over them.

 

[sarang]

Frogs always croak. The mutts have faced bigger threats and assaults. They will survive; tambram culture too will survive.

I think Shri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal is on the right path....Also comments such as Kanch Math is fake etc do more harm to the Tambra.

 

[tks]

I think Brahmanyan is referring to post #15 by TKS. TKS calls hindus and especially brahmins cowards for not standing up for JS. I can understand if it was deemed abusive, although, many have seem to gloss over it. Perhaps, members are used to such abuses as they happen frequently in this forum (when it comes to brahmins) in the name of criticism and free speech

Anyways coming to TKS' charge, I do not think all brahmins completely abandoned JS or Kanchi Mutt when JS was slapped with assault and murder charges. I remember more than a handful tamil brahmins participated in agitations against the government, mostly in chennai. It appeared due process was not followed and the way the case was handled showed arrogance and high-handedness on part of the government (ADMK) headed by JJ. It certainly appeared the case was a result of some fallout between JJ and the Mutt. A website was started to help defeat the propaganda of govt machinery against the Kanchi Mutt. I think it is still regularly updated and the website is run mostly by brahmins. Members can find it here: kanchi-sathya.org - information on the kanchi seer, latest news on the the seer trial, facts about the kanchi mutt :: media :: This is the best brahmins could do, considering they are a miniscule community in TN and their marginalization is near complete there. It is also true some brahmins lost their faith in the Mutt and also in the religious heads. I think it is difficult to keep one's faith as the RHs were/are facing quite serious charges against them.

Sri Brahmanyan - My sincere apologies to you and anyone offended by my comments if that is the case..

Sri KB - Your posts have been always logical - I am surprised you did not notice the use of 'many' - 'many Hindus...and so called many Brahmins by birth' .. with emphasis on the word 'many' - not 'all'.

Of course there were a few courageous people and they could not stand up to the system. All I did was send some money then (and I know it is lame) since I was in USA then and I found out about after the arrest etc. I did call many of my friends and relatives including those who surround themselves at the Mutt. They all wanted to mind their own business and told me to do the same. Only my old Father in law did something more.

By the way this act is not surprising in a culture that does not think twice about spitting in the street. There are many (not all) people that will keep their house clean and in the safety of their home talk tough (in forums for example) but when it comes to actions requiring a real 'stake in the ground' they are nowhere to be around. It is not just about so called Brahmin by birth - they are minority all right but most Hindus are somehow raised without awareness of their own Samashti Dharma.

Let us contrast this with another situation that comes to my mind - There was a drug addict by name Rodney King in LA
( Rodney King - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
He was beaten by LA police in March of 1991 and a video of it was made available by a person. The only reason the episode ended up in some reasonable shape in terms of justice (at least at that moment) because the majority (non-blacks) cared about what kind of country they lived in. They did not care for a black person who was a drug addict but they cared for due process. This is commitment to Samshti Dharma by American people in action. That is something we all can learn from.

Many Hindus tend to care about Vyashti Dharma but could not care less about Samashti Dharma - that is the larger point I was making.

There are many Hindus and so called Brahmins by birth who have low opinion of the Kanchi Mutt since Jayendra Swamigal got himself into a situation of being arrested. This is like a society that ostracizes a woman who is raped and is actually a victim.

I think Sri Jayendra Swamigal need not care about anyone's opinion and just do the right thing. In this instance he did the right thing - I have explained my reasons (post #15)

I do not know Swami Jayendra Saraswathi personally though I have spoken to him a few times simply because when my father-in-law was alive he insisted that we go and visit and take his blessings anytime we were in Chennai. Sri Jayendra Swamigal patiently listened through Bhagavad Gita recitation of few chapters by my kids (when they were in middle school) but if everyday he has to be doing things like this every hour I think he is doing great things for the society through small and large acts. My kids still remember the encouragement he gave them and I found him to be an extremely simple person in that interaction.

 

[Brahmanyan]

I think Brahmanyan is referring to post #15 by TKS. TKS calls hindus and especially brahmins cowards for not standing up for JS. I can understand if it was deemed abusive, although, many have seem to gloss over it. Perhaps, members are used to such abuses as they happen frequently in this forum (when it comes to brahmins) in the name of criticism and free speech

Anyways coming to TKS' charge, I do not think all brahmins completely abandoned JS or Kanchi Mutt when JS was slapped with assault and murder charges. I remember more than a handful tamil brahmins participated in agitations against the government, mostly in chennai. It appeared due process was not followed and the way the case was handled showed arrogance and high-handedness on part of the government (ADMK) headed by JJ. It certainly appeared the case was a result of some fallout between JJ and the Mutt. A website was started to help defeat the propaganda of govt machinery against the Kanchi Mutt. I think it is still regularly updated and the website is run mostly by brahmins. Members can find it here: kanchi-sathya.org - information on the kanchi seer, latest news on the the seer trial, facts about the kanchi mutt :: media :: This is the best brahmins could do, considering they are a miniscule community in TN and their marginalization is near complete there. It is also true some brahmins lost their faith in the Mutt and also in the religious heads. I think it is difficult to keep one's faith as the RHs were/are facing quite serious charges against them.

Dear Sri "கால பைரவன்",

You are correct. Using strong words against our own community hurts me.
I am a member in this forum since 2006 and I enjoy best of respect and regards from all members and I have no regret against any one.I am a strong believer in free speech and liberal thinking. People who follow my posts would have noticed that I never enter into arguments on any subject. As a matter of principle I confine my opinions to the subject and never indulge in adverse comments on any community or any one personally.

"Tamil Brahmins" is a wonderful Forum giving space to all shades of opinions on vast range of subjects. The members too have responsibility to keep the dignity and decorum of the platform when they air their views. This is more important when they discuss on subjects which are in judicial process. Free speech is not absolute. In a recent pronouncement the SC bench under the Chief Justice has observed that freedom of speech and expression is "not an absolute" and remarked that journalists "should know the lakshman rekha so that they don't cross the line of contempt."

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Sri Brahmanyan - My sincere apologies to you and anyone offended by my comments if that is the case..

Dear Sri tks,

There is no need to apologise. I am not here to moderate or advise on any one as to how they should write their posts. But it is important that members confine their opinions on the subjects and not to use words which would hurt others.
I would feel happy if you would please remove the words that may hurt Brahmins, from your post#15.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

Frogs always croak. The mutts have faced bigger threats and assaults. They will survive; tambram culture too will survive.

Frogs are created by nature to croak, just as foxes are created only to howl, you see!

The Kanchi Mutt was brought into existence by Chandrasekharendra sarasvathi. I personally hold that there was no Kanchi Mutt before that. Anyway, its life has been too short; whereas the four traditional Shankara Mutts in Sringeri, Dwaraka, Puri and Badrinath (?) have managed to exist for some centuries at least, without threats or assaults, the very second head, JS, got fed up of his existence, threw away his Dandu and ran away to talakaveri. The chasm of disrepute so created was somehow "whitewashed" by some powerful followers like ex-President Venkatraman. Within a quarter of a century or so, the same JS gets involved in very serious criminal charges and one of the followers of the Mutt himself got into trouble when he criticized the activities of JS. The next incumbent-in-waiting is not liked by many of the mutt's devotees themselves as also the general public in Kanchipuram for various reasons which cannot be written in a piblic forum such as this.

So, what was brought about in a not-so-straight way has started doddering even within a century. Tambram culture was there before Chandrasekharendra Sarasvathi, and it will continue even after JS' time.

Saradamba of Sringeri must be smiling!

 

[sarang]

What better proof or records are necessary? I reminded of the dialogue of a character in the once popular BBC tv serial "are you being served"; she will end any discussion with this - "I am unanimous in this".

The Kanchi Mutt was brought into existence by Chandrasekharendra sarasvathi. I personally hold that there was no Kanchi Mutt before that.

 

[suraju06]

What better proof or records are necessary? I reminded of the dialogue of a character in the once popular BBC tv serial "are you being served"; she will end any discussion with this - "I am unanimous in this".

Dear sarang,

When Sangom Sir brings his proof I hope you will still be around to counTer it. I like the truth.
cheers.

 

[P.J.]

Dear sarang,

When Sangom Sir brings his proof I hope you will still be around to counTer it. I like the truth.
cheers.

suraju 06 Sir

There are some posts ( post no 64 ) deserves no reply.

 

[suraju06]

Dear P.J.,

There are some posts ( post no 64 ) deserves no reply.

Is it because they court controversy? Is it because they overturn our pet beliefs and relentlessly draw us towards what may be the truth? Or is it because some of our icons are no more that after we read what these posts have to say?

I think it would be better to know the truth. Even if Chandrasekarendra saraswathi Swami brought into being the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam from an existing kernel (I believe he would not have claimed the sankara matom tag without some reason), there is nothing to run away from. The swami was such a great spiritual personality that he had every qualification to bring/revive such a matom into being. Instead of knowing the truth if we are to sweep every thing under the carpet, the present generation and the generations to come will not forgive us for the hypocrisy and duplicity that we practice.

I hope Sangom Sir gives us more information and others like sarang and you discuss it here.

Cheers.

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Dear P.J.,



Is it because they court controversy? Is it because they overturn our pet beliefs and relentlessly draw us towards what may be the truth? Or is it because some of our icons are no more that after we read what these posts have to say?

I think it would be better to know the truth. Even if Chandrasekarendra saraswathi Swami brought into being the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam from an existing kernel (I believe he would not have claimed the sankara matom tag without some reason), there is nothing to run away from. The swami was such a great spiritual personality that he had every qualification to bring/revive such a matom into being. Instead of knowing the truth if we are to sweep every thing under the carpet, the present generation and the generations to come will not forgive us for the hypocrisy and duplicity that we practice.

I hope Sangom Sir gives us more information and others like sarang and you discuss it here.

Cheers.

Sri Sangom's post obviously is not palatable to some of the members. Regardless of the tone or language of his posting, the content of his message still remains valid.

The question whether the Kanchi Mutt is as ancient as it claims has been debated in various forms since the second half of 19th century. At the same time, such doubts have not been raised even in case of Badari Mutt etc whose succession chain remained broken for more than 100 years.

If Kanchi Mutt had indeed been in existence for centuries as it claims and further if it had unbroken succession all through, why should there be any contrary view to its historicity ?. More so when even Mutts with broken succession have been remembered well in society.

Also it is claimed that very eminent spiritual leaders through the centuries have either been the Acharya or aDisciples of the Kanchi Mutt. Still why should doubts about its claims to historicity arise ?

Society could not have developed a selective amnesia only in respect of Kanchi Mutt's lineage and history. At least those in society who were not affected by amnesia would have easily silenced the ones who forgot the Kanchi Mutt's history.

However that was not the case. Since late 19th century, Kanchi Mutt has been making strong claims to antiquity and ever since then there have been strong rejections and protests from various sections of society.

It is not possible to accept "evidences" from books and other sources which have surfaced after the controvery arose. Also evidence from those who represented the claimant cannot be taken due to objectivity considerations.

Till the earlier part of 19th century, there was no doubt which Mutts were established by Shankara. Only four- and that did not include Kanchi. This was clearly depicted in books around that time also.

Monier Williams' book on Brahmanism and Hinduism" which sought to portray the Religious Thought and Life in India as based on Vedas and other Sacred Books of Hindus was written in the 19th century. A google search will quickly give access to substantial portions of his book.

Williams is an authority on Sanskrit and his Sanskrit dictionary was admired even by Sri Mahaperiyava of Kanchi.

Williams portrayed the Hindu society, its systems, beliefs, practices as was prevalent during those times. He deals with Smartha, Vaishnava, Madhwa institutions including sect-wise like Vadagalai,Thengalai etc.
So the books was quite an in-depth analysis of all such institutions in Hinduism.

Williams clearly lists 4 Shankar Mutts only and no mention of Kanchi whatsoever.

Williams is not a stray writer from Europe but a highly knowledgeable person on Hinduism, Sanskrit, Scriptures etc. He had no vested interest to write in a biased manner. He wrote what was commonly practised, commonly believed, commonly seen in his times. He had no compulsion to say anything other than the truth of his times.

So if anybody makes claims which are not supported by his book could not be a reflecting the belief or knowledge of Hindu Society during those times.Again to reiterate Williams was an expert on what the book was about and he had no axe to grind.

I consciously avoided quoting evidences or reasons which relied on scholars/writers who came after the controversy arose because their objectivity could always be questioned.

 

[sangom]

Dear P.J.,

Is it because they court controversy? Is it because they overturn our pet beliefs and relentlessly draw us towards what may be the truth? Or is it because some of our icons are no more that after we read what these posts have to say?

I think it would be better to know the truth. Even if Chandrasekarendra saraswathi Swami brought into being the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam from an existing kernel (I believe he would not have claimed the sankara matom tag without some reason), there is nothing to run away from. The swami was such a great spiritual personality that he had every qualification to bring/revive such a matom into being. Instead of knowing the truth if we are to sweep every thing under the carpet, the present generation and the generations to come will not forgive us for the hypocrisy and duplicity that we practice.

I hope Sangom Sir gives us more information and others like sarang and you discuss it here.

Cheers.

During the early 1970's our nascent housing colony (which was mostly owned by brahmins only because the original ownership was with the Siva Temple in Karamanai and sale of plots was done thru' word of mouth only) decided to play host to the Kanchi Acharya who was visiting Trivandrum. As is usual among tabras, there were dissenting voices also, because tabas here (even today) are followers of Sringeri, by and large. These dissenters brought a book (published by whom I don't recollect) which tried to prove that Adisankara did not establish any matham at Kanchi. There were some Appendices to the main text; one showed the present area of the mutt in Kancheepuram was a horse stable sometime in 4 centuries or so ago; the argument was that if there really was a matham established by Adishankara, then there would have been some memory at least of that matham having been completely destroyed and made into a stable by some invader or the other. The second Appendix was a resolution in sanskrit by the Kashi Vidwat Sadas of 1932 or near about, which had heard all the arguments in favour of and against the point that the Kanchi Matham was the fifth matham established by Adishankara and invested by Him with overall control of the other four mathams, etc.

I do not have a copy of the book now but much of the material which it contained may be seen in the following url:-

Real history of the Kanchi math (Re: Former President Inaugurates...) Celebrations

For me the most important and clinching evidence was when, looking at a photo / image of HH Chandrasekharendra Saraswati (CS), my mother, who is no more, said with confidence that she had seen that person coming to her native village, Haripad, during her young days as the monk in charge of the Sringeri Matham at Kumbhakonam. (It was the practice in those days - till even my boyhood days - that a monk from the sringeri Matham would come to our village, Haripad, during the annual temple festival time (Chithirai 1st. to 10th.) with stocks of mantra books, sloka books, pooja accessories, icons for panchaayatana pooja and almost every item required for religious observances by a brahmin. This sanyasi would stay in the Brahmana samooha matham very near the temple and his needs would be taken care of by the samooham. Customers would buy the items needed by them with the added satisfaction that they were purchasing from an authentic source.)

The above are proofs enough for me to be convinced that the Kanchi Mutt was not established by AdiShankara. But I cannot compel others to follow my line. As regards CS, he might have been a very learned person and I don't question his personal qualifications or abilities; but his staking a claim to be the peethaadhipathi of Kanchi mutt etc., is not convincing to me.

 

[P.J.]

suraju Sir

There is ample sculptural and epigraphic evidence to show Adi Sankara’s connection to Kanchipuram, and its temples and that Adi Sankara established the Kanchi Mutt. Ancient sculptures of Sankara can be found in the Ekambarnatha, Kailasanatha, Kumrakoshtam, Varadaraja Perumal, Kamakshi Amman and many other temples in Kanchipuram. One of the most stunning ancient sculptures is within the precincts of the Kanchi Mutt. Inscriptions in Ambikapuram village temple wall near Kanchi and copper plate inscriptions on land grands to Kanchi Mutt indicates the antiquity of the Kanchi Mutt.

Kanchipuram is one of the well known Shakti Peetam’s in India. The word “Kanchi” is synonymous for the hip ornament, and is associated with Shakti/Devi/Ambal from time immemorial and there is ample scriptural and puranic evidence to prove this (Mooka Panchasath; Devi Bhagwata Purana, Durvasa’s Aryadvishati). The Shakti Peetam within Kanchipuram is undoubtedly the Kamakoshtam better know as Kamakshi Amma Temple. All temples in Kanchi face the Kamakshi Temple. During festivals deities of all temples are taken around the Kamakshi temple in procession.Reference: http://www.pondyonline.com/user/KanchiTemples/SriKamakshiDevi.aspx)

Note that several great Pontiffs bearing the name Sankara have adorned the illustrious Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam. Kripa Sankara (28-69 AD), Ujwala Sankara (329-367 AD) Muka Sankara (398-437 AD) and Abhinava Sankara (788-840 AD). Abhinava Sankara was one of the most scholarly and erudite acharyas, debated scholars, conducted spiritual rejuvenation across the nation and spent some time in Kashmir before attaining mukti in the Himalayas. He is often confused with Adi Sankara and also in the cause of the 8th Century date of Adi Sankara’s birth

Times Publishes Realistic History of Kanchi Mutt
A National Seminar of experts was held Jan 2003 in Mumbai on the age of Sankara and Kanchi Mutt that proves the date of 509 and 482 BC respectively. The print volume was given srimukham by Dwaraka, Jyotir Mutt, Puri and Kanchi Mutts which hopefully lends some authenticity to the dates. This print volume can be procured from:

The Age of Sankara Seminar 2003, Publishers VSPR Sabha,
301 Angan, T.V. Chidambaram Marg, Sion (East), Mumbai 400 022.

Times Publishes Realistic History of Kanchi Mutt

Shri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham was established by Sri Adi Sankara in the year 482 B.C. (see About and History) and has the distinction of an unbroken line of 70 Acharyas (spiritual leaders). On this web site, we present you with several aspects of Sanatana Dharma, Hinduism and Advaita Vedanta (running into several thousands of pages).
Hinduism Sanathana Dharma and Vedanta: presented by Shri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham : kamakoti.org

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Sri Sangom's post obviously is not palatable to some of the members. Regardless of the tone or language of his posting, the content of his message still remains valid.

The question whether the Kanchi Mutt is as ancient as it claims has been debated in various forms since the second half of 19th century. At the same time, such doubts have not been raised even in case of Badari Mutt etc whose succession chain remained broken for more than 100 years.

If Kanchi Mutt had indeed been in existence for centuries as it claims and further if it had unbroken succession all through, why should there be any contrary view to its historicity ?. More so when even Mutts with broken succession have been remembered well in society.

Also it is claimed that very eminent spiritual leaders through the centuries have either been the Acharya or aDisciples of the Kanchi Mutt. Still why should doubts about its claims to historicity arise ?

Society could not have developed a selective amnesia only in respect of Kanchi Mutt's lineage and history. At least those in society who were not affected by amnesia would have easily silenced the ones who forgot the Kanchi Mutt's history.

However that was not the case. Since late 19th century, Kanchi Mutt has been making strong claims to antiquity and ever since then there have been strong rejections and protests from various sections of society.

It is not possible to accept "evidences" from books and other sources which have surfaced after the controvery arose. Also evidence from those who represented the claimant cannot be taken due to objectivity considerations.

Till the earlier part of 19th century, there was no doubt which Mutts were established by Shankara. Only four- and that did not include Kanchi. This was clearly depicted in books around that time also.

Monier Williams' book on Brahmanism and Hinduism" which sought to portray the Religious Thought and Life in India as based on Vedas and other Sacred Books of Hindus was written in the 19th century. A google search will quickly give access to substantial portions of his book.

Williams is an authority on Sanskrit and his Sanskrit dictionary was admired even by Sri Mahaperiyava of Kanchi.

Williams portrayed the Hindu society, its systems, beliefs, practices as was prevalent during those times. He deals with Smartha, Vaishnava, Madhwa institutions including sect-wise like Vadagalai,Thengalai etc.
So the books was quite an in-depth analysis of all such institutions in Hinduism.

Williams clearly lists 4 Shankar Mutts only and no mention of Kanchi whatsoever.

Williams is not a stray writer from Europe but a highly knowledgeable person on Hinduism, Sanskrit, Scriptures etc. He had no vested interest to write in a biased manner. He wrote what was commonly practised, commonly believed, commonly seen in his times. He had no compulsion to say anything other than the truth of his times.

So if anybody makes claims which are not supported by his book could not be a reflecting the belief or knowledge of Hindu Society during those times.Again to reiterate Williams was an expert on what the book was about and he had no axe to grind.

I consciously avoided quoting evidences or reasons which relied on scholars/writers who came after the controversy arose because their objectivity could always be questioned.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Hindus have a disdain if not contempt for history. There have been posts in this forum where members have referred to the Historical approach as a Western Idea. This attitude of the Hindus is the reason why we have hardly any recorded history. Compare this to China where every emperor wrote annals or chronicles.

Indian temples do not have history. They have only Sthala Puranas. So a 16th century temple can claim to be erected by Indira or vayu or whatever God suits you.

Historians have kept off writing the history of Hinduism because of this attitude.

For example if I say Ramayana was written about 2500 years back, the immediate reaction would be that it was written before a million years. We claim that our Scriptures were written long before Humanity existed (as per modern historians).

I do not think any one can convince the faithful about the history of the Maths. Or for that matter the history of any temple or the scriptures.

Even the fact the that the date ascribed to Adi Sankara by the Maths place him before the birth of sakya Muni Buddha is a inconsistency which is glossed over.

We do not have reliable and substantiated history of Adi Sankara or the Maths. Even the history of the later Acharyas Like Ramnujacharya have inconsistencies which are not explained.

But we are not interested in digging up these controversies because it does not benefit Hinduism as a whole. A lot of heat is generated but no light is thrown.

The question which really bothers me and should bother all of us is

Do we really believe in Sathyam? Even if it hurts our beliefs. Are we interested?

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir and P.J.,

Thanks for the posts. The links were useful. Though I have reached my own conclusions I will keep my search going. Thanks.

 

[sangom]

Hindus have a disdain if not contempt for history. There have been posts in this forum where members have referred to the Historical approach as a Western Idea. This attitude of the Hindus is the reason why we have hardly any recorded history. Compare this to China where every emperor wrote annals or chronicles.

Indian temples do not have history. They have only Sthala Puranas. So a 16th century temple can claim to be erected by Indira or vayu or whatever God suits you.

Historians have kept off writing the history of Hinduism because of this attitude.

For example if I say Ramayana was written about 2500 years back, the immediate reaction would be that it was written before a million years. We claim that our Scriptures were written long before Humanity existed (as per modern historians).

I do not think any one can convince the faithful about the history of the Maths. Or for that matter the history of any temple or the scriptures.

Even the fact the that the date ascribed to Adi Sankara by the Maths place him before the birth of sakya Muni Buddha is a inconsistency which is glossed over.

We do not have reliable and substantiated history of Adi Sankara or the Maths. Even the history of the later Acharyas Like Ramnujacharya have inconsistencies which are not explained.

But we are not interested in digging up these controversies because it does not benefit Hinduism as a whole. A lot of heat is generated but no light is thrown.

The question which really bothers me and should bother all of us is

Do we really believe in Sathyam? Even if it hurts our beliefs. Are we interested?

Dear Shri iniyan,

I believe the Indian attitude, preponderantly, may be summarised as "what we believe is Satyam".