நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

[Raghy]

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Dear Raghy,

Thanks for posting the link to JMO's article.

This particular portion below describes the situation quite well.



I think What Jeyamohan wrote about the NB castes applies perfectly well to the Brahmin bashers of this forum as well. They give out the same explanations to pin the blame on Brahmins thereby protecting the NB castes. These people exhibit the worst type of jathi veri that they pretend to oppose.

Dear Sri. KB,

My point of posting the blog is to show the hypocrisy of DK party policies. I don't condone Vanniyar's discrimination against dalits. I am not trying to justify brahmin's action in the past either.

In the OP, Kannadasan expresses the hypocrisy of DK party when they opposed only 'Hindu Gods' when they played the ' God opposing rationality'. They never had the guts to speak about Christian God or the Islamic God.

I just love Richard Dawkins for his policies 'opposing Gods'. He has no fear opposing Islamic and Christian Gods.

The main aim of my posting the blog is to show the hypocrisy followed by DK party and the party leadership.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Frankly speaking even though I am a Vanniyar by birth..I am just waiting for the day I meet a casteist Dalit hating Vanniyar and he/she will get a piece of my mind for their atrocities done to Dalits.
That does not mean I am bashing my own caste/community but just letting them know that they are wrong.
I myself had once left "one slap on your face comment" in a Vanniyar site cos they were acting as if they were Kings and looked down upon Dalits and I let them know that I am also a Vanniyar so that they know how their own caste feels about how they behave.
So you see in my opinion I am no traitor to my community by pointing out their mistakes done to Dalits.

Dear Doc,

I feel your comparing yourself to the Brahmin bashers is NOT valid. Your comparison will be valid if you were to blame the Brahmins for what vanniyars did/ or doing to dalits. Or to put it differently, your comparison will be valid if you continue to leave "slap in the face comment" in a vanniyar site for any and every atrocity perpetrated in the name of caste by anybody and not necessarily vanniyars. But I know you won't do that. So your comparison is not correct. Not only the vanniyars, no other caste is subjected to such intense hatemongering as the Brahmins are.

They are opposing Casteism of any kind be it from a Brahmin or any Middle Caste and not Brahmin Bashing.

I do not think your statement captures the whole story.

First, they do not oppose casteism if Brahmins are at the receiving end. There, they not only not oppose but also defend and justify such casteist discrimination. Second, as said above, they blame Brahmins even if the parties involved are all non-Brahmins.

Therefore, with due respects, your statement is much closer to untruth than to truth.

I appreciate your initiative but I am afraid I disagree with you.

Thank you!

 

[sangom]

The following extracts from Shri Jeyamohan's blog also deserve our attention:—

இந்தியவரலாற்றில் சமானமான சாதிகள் ஒன்றாக இணைவதன்மூலம் பெருந்திரளாக ஆகி வெல்வதை தொடர்ந்து பார்க்கலாம். மிகச்சிறந்த உதாரணமென்பது கடைசியாக நிகழ்ந்த நாயக்ககளின் எழுச்சி. அது நான்கு பெரும் சாதிகளும் எட்டு சிறு சாதிகளும் ஒன்றாக இணைந்ததன் விளைவு. அந்த வரலாற்று வெற்றிக்கும் ஐந்து பேரரசுகளின் உருவாக்கத்திற்கும் பிறகும் அவர்களிடையே அச்சாதிகளின் தனியடையாளங்கள் நீடிக்கின்றன என்பதையும் நாம் காணலாம். அவை ஏற்றத்தாழ்வுகளாக அல்லாமல் பண்பாட்டுஅடையாளங்களாக நீடிக்கின்றன. காரணம் அவர்களின் ஒருங்கிணைவு நிகழ்ந்தது நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ காலகட்டத்தில்

அந்த வெளிப்போராட்டத்திற்கு இணையாகவே சொல்லப்படவேண்டியது அகப்போராட்டம். ஒவ்வொருவரும் தன்னுள் உறையும் சாதிக்கு எதிராக நிகழ்த்தும் போராட்டம் என்று அதைச் சொல்லலாம். தன்னை மேம்படுத்திக்கொள்வதன் வழியாக அதை வென்றுசெல்வதே அதன் இலக்கு. அந்த இலக்குடன் முயலும் ஒரு வன்னியர் அப்படி முயலும் ஒரு தலித்துக்கு எதிரியாக இருக்கமுடியாது. அந்த சமரில் அவரும் தலித்தின் நண்பரே. அதையே பிராமணருக்கும் சொல்வேன்.

சாதி என்னும் அமைப்பின் தோற்றம் அது நீடித்த விதம் இன்று அதன் இடம் பற்றிய பல முக்கியமான ஆய்வு நூல்கள் இன்று எழுதப்பட்டுவிட்டன. அரசியல் உள்நோக்குடன் எழுதப்பட்ட நூல்கள், இந்திய எதிர்ப்புநோக்குடன் நிதியூட்ட ஆய்வாளர்களால் செய்யப்பட்ட நூல்கள் ஆகியவற்றை ஒரு நல்ல வாசகன் எளிதில் தவிர்த்துவிடமுடியும். உண்மையை அறிய எளிய வழி ஒன்றுள்ளது. ஒரு கருத்தை வாசிக்கும்போது சொந்த வாழ்க்கையுடன், வாழும் சூழலுடன் கறாராக ஒப்பிட்டு பார்த்துக்கொள்வதுதான் அது.

சாதி எந்த ஒரு மனிதக்குழுவாலும் கட்டி எழுப்பப்பட்ட ஒன்று அல்ல. அது ஒரு சதியோ சூதோ அல்ல. இந்தியப்பெருநிலத்தில் இருந்த பல்லாயிரம் பழங்குடிக் குலங்கள்தான் சாதிகளாக உருவெடுத்தன. அது இங்கே நிலப்பிரபுத்துவம் உருவான முறை. இந்தியாவில் எங்கெல்லாம் சாதிகள் இல்லையோ அங்கெல்லாம் பழங்குடிக்குலங்கள் உள்ளன. அங்கே சாதியமைப்பை விட கொடூரமான பரஸ்பர மோதல்கள் உள்ளன.
இனக்குழுக்கள் சாதி என்ற அமைப்பாக ஆனது பல்லாயிரம் வருடங்கள் படிப்படியாக நீடித்த ஒரு செயல்பாடு. இது பிரிக்கும் செயல்பாடு அல்ல. தொகுக்கும் செயல்பாடு. அதாவது மக்கள் சாதிகளாக பிரிக்கப்படவில்லை, சாதிகளாக தொகுக்கப்பட்டார்கள். குலங்கள் இனக்குழுக்களாகவும் இனக்குழுக்கள் சாதிகளாகவும் ஆனார்கள். ஆகவேதான் ஒவ்வொரு சாதிக்குள்ளும் உட்பிரிவுகள் இருக்கின்றன. அவை கடைசியில் கோத்திரம் அல்லது கூட்டம் என்னும் குலக்குழு அமைப்பைச் சென்றுசேர்வதைக் காணலாம்.
இனக்குழுக்களும் குலங்களும் சாதிகளாகத் திரண்டபோது அவர்களின் பரஸ்பரப் போராட்டம் வழியாக அன்றைய நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ அதிகார அடுக்கு உருவாகி வந்தது. அதில் நிலத்தை வென்றடைந்தவர்கள் மேலே சென்றார்கள். இழந்தவர்கள் கீழே சென்றார்கள். பல்லாயிரம் வருட இந்திய வரலாற்றில் பல பழங்குடிகள், அடித்தளச் சாதிகள் திரண்டெழுந்து ஒன்றுபட்டு நிலத்தை வென்று பேரரரசுகளை உருவாக்கியிருக்கின்றன. பல இனக்குழுக்கள் நிலமிழந்து அடிமைகளாகியிருக்கிறாரக்ள்.

Hence it will be seen that according to Jeyamohan's view, those castes which could capture and claim ownership of agricultural (or even land currently fallow) lands became "higher castes". I request our esteemed members to ponder as to whether it will be correct to conclude therefore that brahmins always remained the largest and most powerful land-owning caste in Tamil Nadu or the erstwhile Madras Presidency? If this is untrue, then one has to be cautious in accepting,, blindly, all that is written by Jeyamohan.

It is also necessary to explain, if brahmins were not the most land-owning class, how they continued to remain as the highest caste for all of known history and their importance and social status declined only after the Kazhagam came to prominence and captured political power in the present day democratic set-up.

நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ காலகட்டத்தில் இயந்திரங்கள் இல்லை. ஆகவே உலகமெங்கும் நிலப்பிரபுத்துவம் அடிமைகள் மூலமே செயல்பட்டிருக்கிறது. வென்றவர்கள் தோற்றவர்களை அடிமைப்படுத்தி சுரண்டி உபரியை சேகரித்து பெரும் அரசுகளாக உருவாவது நிலப்பிரபுத்துவத்தின் வழிமுறை.

Since brahmins had remained as the "highest caste" will it be in order if we agree that the dalits were pushed into serfdom for the exploitation of brahmins also, along with exploitation by other land-owning classes?

அந்த உபரி மூலம் உருவாக்கப்பட்ட வயல்வெளிகளும் ஏரிகளும் நகரங்களுமே இன்றும் நம் சொத்தாக உள்ளன. நாமெல்லாம் அதில்தான் வாழ்கிறோம்.

மனிதர்களை அடிமைகளாக வைப்பதற்குரிய கொள்கைகள் எங்கிருந்து கிடைக்கின்றனவோ அங்கிருந்தெல்லாம் எடுக்கப்பட்டு நிலப்பிரபுத்துவத்தால் வளர்க்கப்பட்டுள்ளன. மதம் அதற்காக பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டுள்ளது. இதற்கு விதிவிலக்கான மதம் என ஏதும் இல்லை. இஸ்லாமும் கிறித்தவமும் உலகமெங்கும் பிரம்மாண்டமான அடிமைச்சமூகங்களை கொண்ட அரசுகளின் மதங்களாக இருந்தன என்பதை வரலாற்றை புரட்டும் எவரும் உணரமுடியும். இந்துமதமும் பௌத்தமும் எல்லாம்தான்.

In the context of this thread (wherein Kannadasan's eulogy of the hindu religion is the main theme) Jeyamohan's castigating all religions also needs to be considered; do we agree with the above remarks because some other portions of the blog seems to suit our limited purpose?

ஒவ்வொருவரும் தன்னுள் உறையும் சாதிக்கு எதிராக நிகழ்த்தும் போராட்டம் என்று அதைச் சொல்லலாம். தன்னை மேம்படுத்திக்கொள்வதன் வழியாக அதை வென்றுசெல்வதே அதன் இலக்கு. அந்த இலக்குடன் முயலும் ஒரு வன்னியர் அப்படி முயலும் ஒரு தலித்துக்கு எதிரியாக இருக்கமுடியாது. அந்த சமரில் அவரும் தலித்தின் நண்பரே. அதையே பிராமணருக்கும் சொல்வேன்.

Here, Jeyamohan gives an advice to brahmins. The very fact that the pro-brahminist caucus here harbours ill-will against the Kazhagam, the middle level NBs of TN and perhaps also carries its dislike towards the Dalits, calls for Jeyamohan's advice to be read, introspected upon and implemented faithfully by those caucus members also. In my view this will make them see my point of view.

 

[renuka]

Dear Doc,

I feel your comparing yourself to the Brahmin bashers is NOT valid. Your comparison will be valid if you were to blame the Brahmins for what vanniyars did/ or doing to dalits. Or to put it differently, your comparison will be valid if you continue to leave "slap in the face comment" in a vanniyar site for any and every atrocity perpetrated in the name of caste by anybody and not necessarily vanniyars. But I know you won't do that. So your comparison is not correct. Not only the vanniyars, no other caste is subjected to such intense hatemongering as the Brahmins are.

I do not think your statement captures the whole story.

First, they do not oppose casteism if Brahmins are at the receiving end. There, they not only not oppose but also defend and justify such casteist discrimination. Second, as said above, they blame Brahmins even if the parties involved are all non-Brahmins.

Therefore, with due respects, your statement is much closer to untruth than to truth.

I appreciate your initiative but I am afraid I disagree with you.

Thank you!

Dear Kala Bhairavan ji,

You are right about the part where I wont blame a Brahmin for the crime done by a Vanniyar.

But I often thought that basically Brahmins of the past had all the knowledge in the world to rectify society..if anyone could put an end to casteism it surely would have been done well by a Brahmin ..but yet I think not many took the initiative.

Just like a Muslim would follow the words of his Ulama and a Christian would honour the words of his Priest...even Kings listened to words of Brahmins in the past..so what was holding back any Brahmin from revolutionizing society?

May be I guess in India each caste lives only for themselves and does not think of society and country.

I read before that Naturam Godse took initiative to end casteism by organizing get together where every caste from Brahmin to Dalit ate at the same dinner table.

I was reading some verses from Mahabharat yesterday which stated that

"food for dogs,crows and Chandalas are to be placed on the ground..and this gift of food called vaishvadeva(food for all) is done in the evenings as well as in the morning.

I was kind of surprised to read that the food for a Chandala is to be placed on the ground like a dog or crow...bringing down a Chandala to the level of a subhuman..but yet the same Mahabharat houses the Bhagavad Geeta that says:

The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].

So this totally contradicts each other isn't it?
The verse in Mahabharat says to place food for a dog, crow and Chandala on the ground but the verse in Geeta says that each one living being is essentially the same.

A point to ponder why no one questions all these?

 

[sravna]

I do not think that any amount of brahmin bashing can make any dent on the solid foundation that makes brahminism impregnable. I am sure at just the right time there will always be a saviour who can energize these ideals and strongly re-establish them. The reason is these values have such a depth and are built into the fabric of reality and cannot be wished away and will emerge ever more strongly when external forces try to stifle them.

No other commnuity has thrown up such super duper geniuses as the brahmin commnuity has and the reason is that the brahminic values are safeguarded by nature.

 

[vgane]

Had Kannadasan who passed away at a young age of 54 years, lived for another decade or two the anti brahmin movement in Tamil Nadu would have completely dissipated..He came to be one of the most devoted savior of Hinduism in Tamil Nadu...He had a great influence on the masses through his poetry!

 

[tks]

tks,

i agree with you. i am of the same mentality myself.

but, when i see arrogance denial chauvinism ignorance unfortunately mixed with supposed half baked erudism blended with dishonesty, i cannot but pour myself here, with a dose of despair.

these folks, are not for repairing and nourishing. they belong to the hitlerite view of gotterdamerung - if the world is not per brahminism, the world is not worth existing. they will do everything to destroy hindus and hinduism, while claiming adherence to their version ie manu.

so sad. the even sadder fact, is today's middle castes of tamil nadu are their allies...screwing the dalits and ultimately destroying what is bharat...

dont know where this is all going to end.

Arrogance and other such human weaknesses are seen in every part of human society.
If there are discussions about how those in the unorganized sector are treated and what can be done I think that kind of exchange will be productive. I do not want to even use the D word to describe any human being if I can avoid it.


I really do not think anyone here or elsewhere represent the Brahmin tag and if someone displays arrogance in a given issue it does not mean everyone who call themselves Brahmins today or in yesteryears have to be negatively portrayed.

My issue has to do with a few posts spewing messages of hate and doing this *repeatedly* - that is an individual problem which cannot be resolved by any forum responses. It requires deeper analysis by someone qualified

You cannot reason with someone who is bent on stating some hate messages over and over and being immature resorting to name calling etc.

Hence my appeal is for reasonable people to move on ignoring those few posts.

Today we have a billionaire living in a skyscraper overlooking one of the worst slums in the world.

We have millions of women who are forced into sex traffic including in India. What a human animal can do to others is beyond imagination

These are many such real issues of today unlike what is discussed here in my view .. I do not expect agreement ....

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom,

I refer to your post # 103. I posted not just some selected portions of the blog only. I posted the link for the whole blog.

As found in the OP, I was interested in showing the hypocrisy followed by DK party and the party leadership. I selected the portions reiterating the hypocrisy.

I am a very simple person. You have seen me. That's all I am, that's all I ever would be. In fact, i accepted here I am a 'filtered idiot' too.

When some one talks against only Hindu Gods and refuse to talk ill of Christian or Islamic God when they talk against faith in God, my pea brain see that as hypocrisy.

When someone opposes caste based discrimination performed by people belonging to one particular caste in the past and keeps very quite when so many other castes perform caste based discrimination as of today, I would view that someone and any such party as hypocrites.

You may not agree with me. But I see the elephant in the middle of the lounge.

For me, the subject is the hypocrisy followed by DK party and its leadership. That's why I posted the link to the blog.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Kala Bhairavan ji,

After reading what Sangom in a reply post to me..I think I can get a clearer picture now.

I do not think anyone in this thread is a Brahmin Basher without a cause.

You see some members agree with Jeyamohan's attempt to expose the casteist mindset of Vanniyars.

They are opposing Casteism of any kind be it from a Brahmin or any Middle Caste and not Brahmin Bashing.

Frankly speaking even though I am a Vanniyar by birth..I am just waiting for the day I meet a casteist Dalit hating Vanniyar and he/she will get a piece of my mind for their atrocities done to Dalits.

That does not mean I am bashing my own caste/community but just letting them know that they are wrong.

I myself had once left "one slap on your face comment" in a Vanniyar site cos they were acting as if they were Kings and looked down upon Dalits and I let them know that I am also a Vanniyar so that they know how their own caste feels about how they behave.

So you see in my opinion I am no traitor to my community by pointing out their mistakes done to Dalits.

I have read a few Dalit blogs and also write there from time to time..Dalit blogs somehow never spew hatred but actually crying out for acceptance.

Note :I usually do not identify with caste but in this post I mentioned caste to actually denote that one need not stand by the actions of one's own caste and try to justify atrocities out of caste pride if the action is not within modern day Law.

Smt. Renuka,

The problem with our "caucus" here is that it views this as a kind of "property" owned by pro-brahminist members only and that anyone - B or NB - participating in the discussions here ought to write only eulogies about brahmins and brahminism. I view this forum and its archives as a kind of information source - source of truthful information, since some part of our Dharma and the Dharmasastras made by brahmins itself emphasizes the greatness of truthfulness. (In the kaṭhopaniṣad, naciketa, the young son of uddālaka finds that his father was trying to gift useless cows as the dakṣiṇā for the priests and tries to convince his father that it was an adhārmik action, etc.)

I personallly hold the view that in the Indian (Hindu) society, the brahmins were the people who formulated the laws, including the social stratification into castes of the myriad of small clans or gotras which populated this sub-continent when the people (of whom the brahmins formed one part) started capturing the land and agriculture was probably in its nascent, slash and burn cultivation stage. The primacy of brahmins continued to hold sway till the modern age. The caste animosity may be from the tribal enmity but the social stratification did not succeed in eradicating that mutual enmity but only transformed it into caste வெறி. Jeyamohan also says:

பிராமணர்களின் ஆதிக்கம் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆட்சிக்காலத்தில் அரசுநிர்வாகத்திலும் மதத்திலும் இருந்தது உண்மை. ஆனால் சமூக அளவில் தமிழகத்தில் இருந்தது பிராமணரல்லாத உயர்சாதியினரின் ஆதிக்கமே. பிராமணரல்லாத உயர்சாதியினர் பிராமணருக்கு அரசதிகாரத்திலும் மதத்திலும் இருந்த ஆதிக்கத்துக்கு எதிராக கொண்ட கோபம் இங்கே ஏற்கனவே இருந்தது. அதுவே பிராமணரல்லாதோர் இயக்கமாக ஆகியது.

(It is a fact that during the British rule, brahmins had great power in government and religious matters. But in social matters the higher NB castes wielded influence. These NBs were angry (jealous?) of the position and influence of the brahmins in the government and religion and this got transformed into the Non-Brahmin movement (The Justice Party?).)

There is sufficient evidence to prove that the Vanniars (formerly known as "Pallis") formed the largest single caste in Madras Presidency and are probably the largest single caste in present day TN also. Since this caste now owns 50% or even more of the farm areas of TN, they are very particular in keeping the Dalits subjugated as serfs, a syndrome to which Jeyamohan refers in his blog. I believe that this approach has arisen out of their felt need to continue as the land-owning class. If possibly some capable leader comes up from the Dalits, brahmins or other NB castes other than Vanniyars, and starts an anti-vanniyar movement, perhaps TN will have yet another transformation. But I do not know whether all the rest are as much against the Vanniyars as they were against the brahmins at one point of time. Perhaps not.

My limited pov here is that our esteemed friends arrayed against me should see that there is not as much animosity among all castes against the Dalits and that the brahmins' position was somehow different. Pointing this out is seen as BB here. These people fail to see this simple truth and will like to play the role of the "innocent victim". That is the unfortunate thing, according to me.

Shri KB has come up to the doorstep of acknowledging that the movement (Kazhagam) wanted to grab political power through the anti-brahmin movement. I have raised two simple doubts:

"Kindly elucidate, with reference to the sentence in bold fonts, how an agenda against a very small percentage of the whole population could be thought of by the dominant NBs with the aim of "capturing" political power? From whom did they plan to capture this political power and what was the use of going against brahmins?" (here)

I hope a reply will come. But in the meanwhile the thread has changed course to Jeyamohan's blog and its fall-out.

 

[Nara]

Dear sangom, you have made several interesting and important points. I would like to add my views.

.... If this is untrue, then one has to be cautious in accepting,, blindly, all that is written by Jeyamohan.

This is very true. JM is not an oracle overflowing with unadulterated wisdom. We need to take what makes sense and ignore what does not. I do agree, and so would you I think, with his criticism of casteism, in this particular blog he is doing it against Vanniyars, elsewhere he does the same against Brahmins, as you and K have pointed out.

KB has commented elsewhere that we hold Brahmins responsible for the atrocities committed by other castes, and of course, this is just a canard. When Vanniyars burn down a Dalit village, it is the Vanniyars who must be held responsible for the dastardly act and the full weight of the law must be brought down upon the perpetrators and instigators, not anyone else, not Brahmins, absolutely not.

But, the Brahmins who openly tout varna/jAti system as the ideal way to organize a society and claim validity from sources they assert as inerrant, have to bear their share of the responsibility for establishing and promoting this evil system that routinely spews out these antisocial atrocities. But, our Braminist friends want none of that and to them anyone who wishes this kind of accountability is prejudiced hatemongers.

In the context of this thread (wherein Kannadasan's eulogy of the hindu religion is the main theme) Jeyamohan's castigating all religions also needs to be considered; do we agree with the above remarks because some other portions of the blog seems to suit our limited purpose?

The criticism that the movement didn't go after Christian and Islamic gods is another canard. I addressed this charge in post #15. The Tamil people were under the yoke of Brahminism, not Christianity or Islam. There is no reason to go after those who could be their allies in breaking the spell of inferiority thrust upon the "Shudras" and "avarnas".

I like Dawkins too, I like his arguments against religious superstitions of all kind. But he also comes under criticism that he is critical of Islam more than Christianity and he is accused of hypocrisy as well. But, he does not have a social agenda, but the movement did. To promote their social agenda they refrained from criticizing Christianity and Islam. Of course the Brahmins and others opposed to the movement will see hypocrisy, but that is just the price to pay for keeping the eyes on the prize of liberating the poor masses, which they achieved to a large degree.

Also, the Brahmins who see this hypocrisy must look at the history of the tactics Brahmins used to win and/or maintain political power, it is one replete with much hypocrisy. A case in point, even Hyder Ali and Tippu Sultan were supported by Brahmin advisors. The difference is Brahminical hypocrisy was to maintain their own power and the hypocrisy of the movement was to empower the powerless.

Here, Jeyamohan gives an advice to brahmins. The very fact that the pro-brahminist caucus here harbours ill-will against the Kazhagam, the middle level NBs of TN and perhaps also carries its dislike towards the Dalits, calls for Jeyamohan's advice to be read, introspected upon and implemented faithfully by those caucus members also. In my view this will make them see my point of view.

And that would make JM also a hatemongering, prejudiced BB, isn't?

.... Jeyamohan also says:

பிராமணர்களின் ஆதிக்கம் பிரிட்டிஷ் ஆட்சிக்காலத்தில் அரசுநிர்வாகத்திலும் மதத்திலும் இருந்தது உண்மை. ஆனால் சமூக அளவில் தமிழகத்தில் இருந்தது பிராமணரல்லாத உயர்சாதியினரின் ஆதிக்கமே. பிராமணரல்லாத உயர்சாதியினர் பிராமணருக்கு அரசதிகாரத்திலும் மதத்திலும் இருந்த ஆதிக்கத்துக்கு எதிராக கொண்ட கோபம் இங்கே ஏற்கனவே இருந்தது. அதுவே பிராமணரல்லாதோர் இயக்கமாக ஆகியது.

Sometime back I read a research paper on the rise of the movement. The authors presented a lot of documentary evidence and argued that one of the reasons for the upper caste Hindus turning against Bs was property disputes. The upper castes and Brahmins -- both land owning classes -- were allies mostly, cooperated with each other in keeping the masses in servitude extracting as much surplus labor as possible and enriching themselves. However, during the British rule Brahmins slowly gained ascendency through their English education, which the upper caste Hindus didn't much care for. Then, whenever property disputes arose they had to settle them through the British court system run by the Brahmins. Both sides of the dispute hired Brahmin lawyers, both well versed in the "Bleak House" type tactics on interminate extensions. The disputes just dragged on, never got resolved, and lawyer's fees just eat up the property of both sides of the dispute. The seed of animosity towards Brahmins was set.

It is true that in its genesis, the movement was just a power struggle between the Brahmins and the land owning upper castes. மறைமலை அடிகள், மா.போ.சி., or திரு வி கா or a litany of others who thought of themselves as the original வேளாளர் rulers of TN. The movement also had more left-leaning wing led by the iconoclast par excellence. The two wings hated each other and we all know who ultimately gained power in the movement and the rest is history.

So, JM's criticism that the movement was a fight between land owning upper castes and Bs is valid, but it is not the entire story.

regards ...

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Nara,

Ref: Your post # 110 above.

I only wish and hope that our friends in the "caucus" will accept that Jeyamohan, the iconoclast par excellence whom you refer to and ever so many others who have researched/written about, were all hatemongers against brahmins !

Even if this view is accepted for argument's sake, the question that will haunt is why a minuscule 2 or 3 percent of the population could and still continues to invite the wrath, dislike and hate of the rest of the population; unless our brahminist friends like KB declare - somewhat like the way the Dharma Sastras declare the caste or Varna of different anuloma and pratiloma marriages or sexual unions - that all these people have an evil agenda to eradicate brahmins. Even then the question will remain why? The Nambudiris who perhaps did more atrocities against almost all other castes in Kerala, nor the tabras who were very powerful in the kingly rule of Travancore, did not place themselves in such a detestable position vis-a-vis the rest of the Kerala population; both (Nambudiris & the tabras of Kerala do not carry any grudge towards any other caste/s for their downfall from the high pedestals which they once occupied and enjoyed. Their view is more balanced and take all the changes as part of history. Only our few tabra friends here seem to be the exceptions. Is this because of what I stated, viz., that this forum because of its serendipitous name of tamilbrahmins.com is a proprietary property of only those who will sing paeans to tabras, brahmins and brahminisms? I don't know. But none of our friends seems ready to explain as to how an anti-brahmin agenda of the Kazhagam could get massive support from almost all sections of the rest of the society? In this connection it is worthwhile keeping note of the following statement of J.Mo.

ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதி வெறியரின் மனநிலை மிகமிக ஆச்சரியமளிப்பது. அவர் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கிறார். காரணம், அவர்கள் தமிழர்களை சாதியால் பிரித்து ஆண்டார்கள் என்கிறார். ஆனால் அவர் தன் சாதியை விட்டுக்கொடுக்க மாட்டார். சாதியின் அடிப்படையில் தலித்துக்களை வெறுப்பார், முன்னேற விட மாட்டார். தலித்துக்கள் தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறியை பொருட்படுத்தக்கூடாதென்று ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதிவெறியர் நினைக்கிறார். சாதியை கற்பித்தவர்கள் பிராமணர்கள் என்றும் ஆகவே தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறிக்காக தலித்துக்கள் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கவேண்டும் என்றும் அவர் கோருகிறார்.

If, as our caucus friends hold, the tabras are really innocent victims of a diabolical plot concocted by the Kazhagam, I would expect that during the last 50 or more years at least tabras ought to have made attempts to prove their innocence by actively encouraging inter-marriage of brahmins and dalits (boys and girls both). This of course did not happen though our friends cry hoarse that ஜாதி or caste was not a creation of brahmins. If so, it should be rather esier for the brahmins to get rid of their ஜாதி consciousness and mix irrevocably with the Dalits and thus form a viable rival for the Vanniyars; why has this not happened so far?

Secondly, even during present times the brahmin mouth-piece organizations do not seem inclined even to decry the atrocities against the Dalits in any noticeable way. I therefore feel that, despite all the shouting by a few self-appointed soldiers of brahminism within this forum, the brahmins of TN prefer to remain within their comfortable shelter and are not bothered about any caste atrocities which do not affect them directly.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

this is the way i look at jaymo. i read his blog regularly. i tried a couple of his books. they are hard reading. deliberately so. jaymo writes in a tamil that is more like a translation of malayalam thought (after all he is malayali by birth).

it reminded me of russian engineering books when i was a student. the content was excellent, but the going and understanding tough. as it was translated from russian by a russian translator.

having said that, jaymo, i think, is the most intelligent and thoughtful writer in tamil today. he has a love for india, hinduism and is casteless. it is very important to understand and appreciate this fact. that he criticizes the brahmins of old, is true. but he has a soft corner for today's brahmins, which evidences in a lot of his blogs.

he is hated by leftists as hindutva, which he is not.

jaymo, is the type of writer, who had he written in any european language, would be in the running for nobel. here, he is only a well respected writer, who makes his money out of movie scripts to avoid suffering poverty. his life story is very eventful and is part of numerous articles in his blog. so are his travels across india.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renukaji,

After reading what Sangom in a reply post to me..I think I can get a clearer picture now.
I do not think anyone in this thread is a Brahmin Basher without a cause.
You see some members agree with Jeyamohan's attempt to expose the casteist mindset of Vanniyars.They are opposing Casteism of any kind be it from a Brahmin or any Middle Caste and not Brahmin Bashing.Frankly speaking even though I am a Vanniyar by birth..I am just waiting for the day I meet a casteist Dalit hating Vanniyar and he/she will get a piece of my mind for their atrocities done to Dalits.That does not mean I am bashing my own caste/community but just letting them know that they are wrong.I myself had once left "one slap on your face comment" in a Vanniyar site cos they were acting as if they were Kings and looked down upon Dalits and I let them know that I am also a Vanniyar so that they know how their own caste feels about how they behave.

The matter is not so simple. It is okay to point the deficiencies in the practices followed by brahmins. It does not matter even if it is done by an NB. But to produce wholesale the vituperative outporings of a casteist anti-brahmin politician, to hold him in esteem, to frequently recall his poisonous words and present them here, To claim openly that he was the greatest thing ever happened to Tamil community are all extreme positions. They are adopted exclusively to mock at the brahmins, bash them left right and centre and derive a peculiar kind of satisfaction from that. When you appreciate and eulogise a hatred pedler you will get hit by those who are the target of that pedler. That is what is happening here.

It is not as if brahmins still live in the first century AD far removed from reality, without learning any thing from times that have passed by etc etc. Rarely do you come across abrahmin today in Tamilnadu who treats a dalit with contempt. But our friends here are different. They still see in every brahmin a casteist because that is what their hatred pedler has taught them. It is deeply ingrained in them. So they come in conflict with modern day brahmins with a balanced outlook here. This is the crux of the problem.

So you see in my opinion I am no traitor to my community by pointing out their mistakes done to Dalits.I have read a few Dalit blogs and also write there from time to time..Dalit blogs somehow never spew hatred but actually crying out for acceptance.
Note :I usually do not identify with caste but in this post I mentioned caste to actually denote that one need not stand by the actions of one's own caste and try to justify atrocities out of caste pride if the action is not within modern day Law.

You will be no traitor if you, on your own, try to tell your community that they should change because they need that change. But if you say that out of your contempt for them -- a contempt which has its roots in the hatred preachings of a hatred pedler for whom you have a lot of respect (because you got a kick from that hatred opiate) then you are certainly wrong. Your community can do without you.

 

[Raghy]

dear sangom,

this is the way i look at jaymo. i read his blog regularly. i tried a couple of his books. they are hard reading. deliberately so. jaymo writes in a tamil that is more like a translation of malayalam thought (after all he is malayali by birth).

it reminded me of russian engineering books when i was a student. the content was excellent, but the going and understanding tough. as it was translated from russian by a russian translator.

having said that, jaymo, i think, is the most intelligent and thoughtful writer in tamil today. he has a love for india, hinduism and is casteless. it is very important to understand and appreciate this fact. that he criticizes the brahmins of old, is true. but he has a soft corner for today's brahmins, which evidences in a lot of his blogs.

he is hated by leftists as hindutva, which he is not.

jaymo, is the type of writer, who had he written in any european language, would be in the running for nobel. here, he is only a well respected writer, who makes his money out of movie scripts to avoid suffering poverty. his life story is very eventful and is part of numerous articles in his blog. so are his travels across india.

Thanks Sri. Kunjuppu.

That is my sentiment too. I don't know about European language and running for noble, but I immensely respect his views. Recently read few blogs where he criticised Jothy Basu's rule in West Bengal, criticised communists of Kerala, Policies of Kerala in general......

I did not notice any soft spot for today's brahmins though. He gave chilli hot replies to the one who criticised him for the 'brahmin lady role' in 'Angadi Theru'. Brahmins, particularly Tamil Brahmins do not discriminate now. Can you say the same thing about other NB castes too? I know you can't honestly say that. What is the point of talking only about the past? Discrimination is happening today. Where is the anger about it?

I like to live in the present. I have witnessed on several occasions dalits getting physically beaten up by NB persons just for the reason they were dalits. I am really happy I had the guts to intervene on those occasions. I did not feel any caste superiority, but was ready to get in a scrap.

My wife also finds it hard to follow JM's Tamizh, particularly his Kanyakumari Thamizh. Did you notice, swear words are used so commonly in the dialogues? Most of his blogs take me back to my village life!

Cheers!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear sangom, you have made several interesting and important points. I would like to add my views.

KB has commented elsewhere that we hold Brahmins responsible for the atrocities committed by other castes, and of course, this is just a canard. When Vanniyars burn down a Dalit village, it is the Vanniyars who must be held responsible for the dastardly act and the full weight of the law must be brought down upon the perpetrators and instigators, not anyone else, not Brahmins, absolutely not.

Some growing up at last. The Erode mahatma never would have accepted this position. And that is what is pointed out by JMo. Of course you have already reserved your right to discount whatever you want from JMo's views. So go ahead.

But, the Brahmins who openly tout varna/jAti system as the ideal way to organize a society and claim validity from sources they assert as inerrant, have to bear their share of the responsibility for establishing and promoting this evil system that routinely spews out these antisocial atrocities. But, our Braminist friends want none of that and to them anyone who wishes this kind of accountability is prejudiced hatemongers.

It has never been claimed by anyone that the inerrant scriptures were all written in some secret encripted language with the pass word in the exclusive possession of brahmins. So the responsibility for the jAti/caste system is a product of the Hindu society as a whole and not brahmin alone even in the matter of the so called "intellectual justification". Hatemongers have fixed the accountability for all the atrocities squarely on brahmins with no share left for the powerful huge middle lump. Whoever parrots the hatmongers' line are also hatemongers.

The criticism that the movement didn't go after Christian and Islamic gods is another canard. I addressed this charge in post #15. The Tamil people were under the yoke of Brahminism, not Christianity or Islam. There is no reason to go after those who could be their allies in breaking the spell of inferiority thrust upon the "Shudras" and "avarnas".

So the hatemongers and hatred pedlers did not believe in atheism. They were not against gods. They were just against brahminism. Some cock and bull story this!! Go and tell this to your American friends who may not know anything about Tamil Society.

I like Dawkins too, I like his arguments against religious superstitions of all kind. But he also comes under criticism that he is critical of Islam more than Christianity and he is accused of hypocrisy as well. But, he does not have a social agenda, but the movement did. To promote their social agenda they refrained from criticizing Christianity and Islam. Of course the Brahmins and others opposed to the movement will see hypocrisy, but that is just the price to pay for keeping the eyes on the prize of liberating the poor masses, which they achieved to a large degree.

When did the atheism of our hatred pedlers become a social agenda? It was just a political agenda to get power and pelf that come with it. They could have criticised christianity and islam and yet wouod have achieved the political agenda because they had the powerful hatred opiate in large quantities. They did not do that because they were mortally scared.

Also, the Brahmins who see this hypocrisy must look at the history of the tactics Brahmins used to win and/or maintain political power, it is one replete with much hypocrisy. A case in point, even Hyder Ali and Tippu Sultan were supported by Brahmin advisors. The difference is Brahminical hypocrisy was to maintain their own power and the hypocrisy of the movement was to empower the powerless.

Which history book are you quoting from. Please elucidate.

Sometime back I read a research paper.........................two wings hated each other and we all know who ultimately gained power in the movement and the rest is history

.


Ultimately the truth has won. Satyamevajayate.

So, JM's criticism that the movement was a fight between land owning upper castes and Bs is valid, but it is not the entire story.

LOL. The வேதாளம் again climbs the முருங்கை மரம். I am hitting the first key.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Shri Nara,Ref: Your post # 110 above.Even if this view is accepted for argument's sake, the question that will haunt is why a minuscule 2 or 3 percent of the population could and still continues to invite the wrath, dislike and hate of the rest of the population; unless our brahminist friends like KB declare - somewhat like the way the Dharma Sastras declare the caste or Varna of different anuloma and pratiloma marriages or sexual unions - that all these people have an evil agenda to eradicate brahmins. Even then the question will remain why?

The answer is this. The hatred. Hatred towards brahmins was a powerful opiate like the hatred towards jews was. It is extremely difficult to get out of the habit of hating once you are fed on it for sufficiently long. In the world hatred was used to the hilt for gaining political power only by two people. One was Hitler and the other ....you know who. As long as the middle lump is in power in TN this hatred addiction will continue. It needs no other justification or reason.

The Nambudiris who perhaps did more atrocities against almost all other castes in Kerala, nor the tabras who were very powerful in the kingly rule of Travancore, did not place themselves in such a detestable position vis-a-vis the rest of the Kerala population; both (Nambudiris & the tabras of Kerala do not carry any grudge towards any other caste/s for their downfall from the high pedestals which they once occupied and enjoyed. Their view is more balanced and take all the changes as part of history. Only our few tabra friends here seem to be the exceptions. Is this because of what I stated, viz., that this forum because of its serendipitous name of tamilbrahmins.com is a proprietary property of only those who will sing paeans to tabras, brahmins and brahminisms? I don't know. But none of our friends seems ready to explain as to how an anti-brahmin agenda of the Kazhagam could get massive support from almost all sections of the rest of the society?

The real struggle in the society is always between those who are poor and those who are rich. In TN brahmins were not rich like the Nambudiris of Kerala who owned all the fertile cultivable land of Kerala. If the struggle was to be there it had to be between the landless labour dalits and the rich land owners who mainly belonged to the middle lump. A handful of brahmins were also there i n that category. But the cunning middle lump wanted to usurp power and so invented the caste superiority and the facile atheism as the tool to achjieve political power and so hoodwinked the poor. In kerala the landless nairs, ezhavas, thiyyas and tribals were on one side and Nambudiris were brought down from their powerful position with land reforms etc., In TN the middle lump with their large land holdings (we have even a proud வடபாதி மங்கலம் whose name itself suggests the kind of landholding his family had) cunningly escaped from the real struggle. They were good at enacting dramas with long winding dialogues which they did well and fed the masses with the opiate. Kerala's is a different culture, a superior one. And about this forum, we do not bother what you have to say as long as you do not insult us. I think we have a right to expect that minimum good conduct from a fellow member.

If, as our caucus friends hold, the tabras are really innocent victims of a diabolical plot concocted by the Kazhagam, I would expect that during the last 50 or more years at least tabras ought to have made attempts to prove their innocence by actively encouraging inter-marriage of brahmins and dalits (boys and girls both). This of course did not happen though our friends cry hoarse that ஜாதி or caste was not a creation of brahmins. If so, it should be rather esier for the brahmins to get rid of their ஜாதி consciousness and mix irrevocably with the Dalits and thus form a viable rival for the Vanniyars; why has this not happened so far?

Even if that had happened the percentage would have improved to only 20 from 2 and 17. So what is special about this? The struggle is that of a helpless minority of 2% and 17% against a brute majority of 80%. And the condeswcending advice is to merge 2 and 17 to become 20. And the jAti consciousness would have still continued happily with the lump ruling the roost. It appears it is conveniently forgotten that vanniars are just a sample. There are far more virulent casteist middle lump groups.

Secondly, even during present times the brahmin mouth-piece organizations do not seem inclined even to decry the atrocities against the Dalits in any noticeable way. I therefore feel that, despite all the shouting by a few self-appointed soldiers of brahminism within this forum, the brahmins of TN prefer to remain within their comfortable shelter and are not bothered about any caste atrocities which do not affect them directly.

Altruism starts not on empty stomachs.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Sri. KB,

My point of posting the blog is to show the hypocrisy of DK party policies. I don't condone Vanniyar's discrimination against dalits. I am not trying to justify brahmin's action in the past either.

I do not think Raghy had to explicitly write this post and state that he doesn't condone casteist discrimination on dalits. But then I can understand why he wrote this post.

He is not alone. It is customary for the holier-than-thou BBs to swoop in and hurl accusations because of their extreme jaathi conciuosness bordering jaathi veri. In this case they accuse others of "picking and choosing" but they will "take only that which makes sense" to them. They wear hypocrisy in their sleeves.

 

[tks]

I do not think Raghy had to explicitly write this post and state that he doesn't condone casteist discrimination on dalits. But then I can understand why he wrote this post.

He is not alone. It is customary for the holier-than-thou BBs to swoop in and hurl accusations because of their extreme jaathi conciuosness bordering jaathi veri. In this case they accuse others of "picking and choosing" but they will "take only that which makes sense" to them. They wear hypocrisy in their sleeves.

Jati Veri is a specific way to describe a kind of illness. I applaud your approach to being very thoughtful and logical in your sincere responses. However they will produce canned and recycled "stuff" only.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

There are several times now - the title of the forum has been brought into this discussion. But the question asked is a clever manipulation of what goes on in this forum. It gives the exact opposite picture. No other community is being subjected to vicious attacks as the Brahmin community in this forum. One example I can distinctly remember is the quick closure of a thread on muslims. Recently ONE comment by Shivkc on Christians was quickly deleted and he was reprimanded. So what is really going on here? It is the brabas who think they can spew venom and write anything and everything against Brahmins just because this forum is titled "tamilbrahmins.com". Everytime a social problem is discussed and their hypocrisy is pointed out in completely whitewashing the role of others, their standard excuse is that this forum is "about brahmins". So who is taking advantage of the title of the forum? I feel that atleast some of these members go from forum to forum and spread bash brahmins but the discovery of this forum, serendipitious or othetwise is like a jackpot to them and that provides an answer to Sarang's question why they take turns in disappearing from the forum only to come back sooner or later. These are the facts. They think the title somehow gives them unlimited rights to crap against brahmins and feel slighted when they are opposed.

 

[Nara]

....incidentally, jaymo wrote the script for angadi theru, and there is an episode there which portrays the brahmin woman inthe worst light.

Intrigued by couple of mentions about angadi theru I downloaded it and watched it. It is a tear jerker alright. The gap between the haves and have nots is laid out in sharp contrast, a family racking up tens of thousands of purchases while the minions are treated like mules -- has echos of the Working Day chapter from Volume 1 of Capital.

I was looking for the portrayal of the brahmin woman in the worst light, but didn't see anything explicit enough to have made any sense to the common Indian cine going public. The irony dripping with hypocrisy of the pious Brahmin keeping couple of dogs in their bungalow may be too subtle for almost all.

I found a scathing critique of the movie and some thoughtful rebuttals here.

One way or another, I enjoyed the movie, a good one, a bit of a sob story, a little too sentimental .....

p.s.
Sorry for the digression from our epic fights, I apologize for the interruption .... on with attacking and defending Brahmins and their ism, what else can be more worthy of our precious time

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I will be away from the forum for a few days. I am sure the "coterie" will give "fitting" replies to my posts. I will try and respond when I come back.

I wish you all a very happy deepavali!

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

this is the way i look at jaymo. i read his blog regularly. i tried a couple of his books. they are hard reading. deliberately so. jaymo writes in a tamil that is more like a translation of malayalam thought (after all he is malayali by birth).

it reminded me of russian engineering books when i was a student. the content was excellent, but the going and understanding tough. as it was translated from russian by a russian translator.

having said that, jaymo, i think, is the most intelligent and thoughtful writer in tamil today. he has a love for india, hinduism and is casteless. it is very important to understand and appreciate this fact. that he criticizes the brahmins of old, is true. but he has a soft corner for today's brahmins, which evidences in a lot of his blogs.

he is hated by leftists as hindutva, which he is not.

jaymo, is the type of writer, who had he written in any european language, would be in the running for nobel. here, he is only a well respected writer, who makes his money out of movie scripts to avoid suffering poverty. his life story is very eventful and is part of numerous articles in his blog. so are his travels across india.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I think jaymo has a softcorner for today's brahmins because of the way the brahmins of Nanchilnadu which formed part of Travancore, took their fall from grace, their dethronement stoically and did not wait for an anti-brahmin uprising of virulent type to achieve that end. If jaymo sees what our friends in the caucus here write, may be he will rethink!

BTW, how come both his parents committed suicide in 1984? Was jaymo and his actions responsible? Did he turn to Tamil because he (jaymo) felt that with his past record, he will not have much of a future in Kerala as a Malayalam writer?

 

[sangom]

There are several times now - the title of the forum has been brought into this discussion. But the question asked is a clever manipulation of what goes on in this forum. It gives the exact opposite picture. No other community is being subjected to vicious attacks as the Brahmin community in this forum. One example I can distinctly remember is the quick closure of a thread on muslims. Recently ONE comment by Shivkc on Christians was quickly deleted and he was reprimanded. So what is really going on here? It is the brabas who think they can spew venom and write anything and everything against Brahmins just because this forum is titled "tamilbrahmins.com". Everytime a social problem is discussed and their hypocrisy is pointed out in completely whitewashing the role of others, their standard excuse is that this forum is "about brahmins". So who is taking advantage of the title of the forum? I feel that atleast some of these members go from forum to forum and spread bash brahmins but the discovery of this forum, serendipitious or othetwise is like a jackpot to them and that provides an answer to Sarang's question why they take turns in disappearing from the forum only to come back sooner or later. These are the facts. They think the title somehow gives them unlimited rights to crap against brahmins and feel slighted when they are opposed.

The first time this thread veered into the BB vs pro-brahmin mode was this, following post, in my considered view:

It has always been clear to at least some of us that the brahmins did not hold sway over the masses either during the colonial era or before as often charged by anti-Brahmins and people prejudiced against them.

What goes on in this forum exemplifies it in a way.

Considering how easy it is for a bunch of people ganging up together and write all sorts of nasty things, such as herculean grip, bondage etc, against Brahmins in the very forum started for the benefit of Brahmins, no one would doubt whether Brahmins held any sway .

So, the general reader may well see that the slogan of "the very forum started for the benefit of Brahmins" has come from the 'caucus' member only; I see it as an indirect call for action by other caucus members to come to the poster's help. I stop with this.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I think jaymo has a softcorner for today's brahmins because of the way the brahmins of Nanchilnadu which formed part of Travancore, took their fall from grace, their dethronement stoically and did not wait for an anti-brahmin uprising of virulent type to achieve that end. If jaymo sees what our friends in the caucus here write, may be he will rethink!

BTW, how come both his parents committed suicide in 1984? Was jaymo and his actions responsible? Did he turn to Tamil because he (jaymo) felt that with his past record, he will not have much of a future in Kerala as a Malayalam writer?

Jmo had strong relationship with sundara ramaswamy and kalachuvadu magazine and pathippagam folks. su ra owned both. folks who had good relationship with brahmins tend to remember the good side too, and are very careful to spare their brahmin friends of the whiplash of their opposition to brahminism.

there are quite some thoughtful bloggers of this kind now, young and very perspective. needless to say, my favourites

are there not palakkad pattars equally familiar with both malayalam and tamil. and kanyakumari tamils too? jmo writes in both - malayalam and tamil. though i feel, he 'thinks' in malayalam, and translates to tamil. that is probably what makes his tamil heavy and slow reading.

i do not know why his parents committed suicide. i have heard of depression being the cause. jmo too had a depression period,. luckily for him and for us, he came out of it, scathed but still whole and wonderfully creative. a great writer whose works will stand the test of time.

one set of tambrams here, i think, are still yet to get over the stings and slaps received by the community during the heyday of the dravidian movement. that hurt then. it probably hurts still now. add to it, is the total exclusion from the socio economic environment of tamil nadu.

me, being a pattar, and with only my father's generation in madras city (which is quite a mele of people and castes and languages) never felt the sting of the reform movements. later, when i came to know really tamils from the kaveri delta and kumbakonam area and their attitudes, i was not surprised at the intensity of the dravidian demands and anger. it is all in the mind.

with yet another niece of mine emigrating to australia today, i have no more relatives in india younger than 50. that generation is spread all over the world. all that is left is my aunt pushing 77 and a couple of cousins in their 50s. i think nobody of that young generation wanted to stay anywhere in india, even though all of these were brought up in the lap of luxury and comfort.

 

[Vaagmi]

post #124 for reference:

Jmo had strong relationship with sundara ramaswamy and kalachuvadu magazine and pathippagam folks. su ra owned both. folks who had good relationship with brahmins tend to remember the good side too, and are very careful to spare their brahmin friends of the whiplash of their opposition to brahminism.

It is not just that. They realise that brahmins understand them better. A majority of these people's readership is from brahmins. Jayakanthan was one such great Tamil writer in his hey days. He wrote about the brahmin milieu and was highly successful because his readership was again largely brahmins who read the Tamil weeklies those days. Even in the Ondu Kudiththanams of Triplicane, Mylapore and Mambalam of those days, reading Anandavikatan, Kalki, Kumudam or Kalaimakal was a must just as the every day creative expression through a Kolam in the door step of their Ondu kudiththanam was a must for these brahmin families. In this forum in another thread Sri Saidevo has written about this cultural aspect of a ondukudiththanam in a tamil kavithai.

i do not know why his parents committed suicide. i have heard of depression being the cause. jmo too had a depression period,. luckily for him and for us, he came out of it, scathed but still whole and wonderfully creative. a great writer whose works will stand the test of time.

Perhaps because he belongs to the Nanchil vellaala community in which such suicides are common. They have a rogue gene in them.

one set of tambrams here, i think, are still yet to get over the stings and slaps received by the community during the heyday of the dravidian movement. that hurt then. it probably hurts still now. add to it, is the total exclusion from the socio economic environment of tamil nadu.

It was very hurtful then. It was all forgotten and brahmins got on with their life. But when old wounds are opened again the pain comes again to haunt. The community does not require any good samaritans to come and advise it to get on with time and in the process tell them that they were all arrogant pigs once upon a time. Brahmins are a successful community even today by any standard.

me, being a pattar, and with only my father's generation in madras city (which is quite a mele of people and castes and languages) never felt the sting of the reform movements. later, when i came to know really tamils from the kaveri delta and kumbakonam area and their attitudes, i was not surprised at the intensity of the dravidian demands and anger. it is all in the mind.

I do not belong to the Kaveri delta. I belong to the much earthy southern district. But When I come across this repeated rant of we are arrogant pigs I get irritated and am compelled to respond. It has nothing to do with attitude. It is just a reaction to the pin prick/mosquito bite.

with yet another niece of mine emigrating to australia today, i have no more relatives in india younger than 50. that generation is spread all over the world. all that is left is my aunt pushing 77 and a couple of cousins in their 50s. i think nobody of that young generation wanted to stay anywhere in india, even though all of these were brought up in the lap of luxury and comfort.

Actually my interest was this paragraph. I have quite a few of my relatives who, despite the opportunities to emigrate have stayed back here. I know very well educated and well endowed girls refusing to marry and emigrate and instead choosing a local guy knowing fully well the advantages and disadvantages. I know a girl who wrote a poetry when she was in her eighth standard in which she said something like " I want to become the material with which gods are made". Later when became a PG from IIM she consciously chose to marry a young man who will never go out of the country. It is not that these people were scared of going out or that they were not talented enough to go out. It is just that they love their life here with all its myriad aspects which are exclusive to India more than anything else. This is just another angle. Some people will call it contentment and some others will call it something else.Thanks.