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A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

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Sow. Happyhindu

"1) Does the Tholkappiyam text use the term "varna"?"

Varna is a Sanskrit word. Classes of some sort exist in society anywhere. The rigidity of that society decides how fluid movement from one class to another is for an individual. Tollkappiyam certainly wouldn't use the term varna, but its hardly conceivable that the society in which it was written wouldn't have had a social structure of some sort.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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Till today, there is only one image of brahmins in the minds of tamilians Edtd - KRS
Dear moderator
I feel Sri Vivek is crossing the limit in throwing personal insinuations against a member of the forum as reflected in the above quote.
 
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.....one more thing KRS. you have been consistent that, to quote you, 'I have consistently stated here that the present generation should not be paying for any perceived sins of their forefathers'. .....
K, I hear this rhetoric often from many others as well, that the reservation system is some sort of collective punishment against Brahmins. We have discussed this time and time again and the same canard rears its head without fail. What sort of a punishment is it if a group constituting 3% of the population have 30% of the available seats to compete for?

Another canard that is thrown into the mix is the talk of merit. This is absolutely untrue. Admission is granted to applicants only based on so called merit, based on their exam score or some such thing. Yes, there are different lists, but that does not mean admission is granted to applicants lacking in merit. Often the cut off mark between FC and BC is insignificant. What makes an exam score of 190 more meritorious than say 185? In some cases, the cut of marks are even closer than this.

I look around among my relatives and friends who are Brahmin, I am yet to come across one person whose success was robbed by the reservation system. So, all this talk of punishment is all about "look at me, I am a victim".

One may disagree with the policy, but the reservation system, enacted by duly elected parliament, signed into law by the duly elected President, and given the seal approval by the supreme court, is certainly not punishment of any kind.

Cheers!
 
Dear moderator
I feel Sri Vivek is crossing the limit in throwing personal insinuations against a member of the forum as reflected in the above quote.

What insinuation?

Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

Do you feel slighted?

Regards,
KRS
 
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Sri KRS
I felt the following expression in Sri Vivek's post was not in good taste;
'if indeed the tamilians consider you one of them'.
Personally I would not make such a comment. If you feel that it was OK, I just say sorry to have troubled you.
regds
 
Dear SriKunjuppu Ji, and Professor Nara Ji,

Let us not please throw around words like 'rhetoric' please.

We are all discussing policy here.

First of all, all the research papers on the quota system in India, start with the phrase 'The first of a kind system anywhere in the world....'

As I have said before, I oppose quotas of any kind favoring any 'injured' party in the past. Fundamentally this 'injures' the present generation for the perceived 'blanket' sins of their forefathers. Helping an injured party is one thing, but doing so by injuring another party is another.

Professor Nara Ji may not have any relatives who are injured by this onerous system. I have scores in my family from a University rank holder to not very bright student relatives. Not only in admissions to colleges etc., but also in work.

I don't understand how people who profess Universal love of all human beings can selectively say that a quota system does not affect some groups? It is not a government's job in my opinion to say, well, let 3% of people go after 30% of open admissions (other so called 'forward' population need to be included as well). Irrespective of the percentages, this idea is morally, fundamentally flawed.

If there is no other way to uplift the disadvantaged, then may be I can accept this. But there are. The only reason the govt. has this for higher education is for political purposes, and as I have cites a paper before (Prof. Nara thought that it backed up his stand), the system has not really made any difference. The answer is to improve, help and assist the 'injured' community students well before they enter college.

Nor do I think that this onerous system is responsible for the social changes in TN.

Regards,
KRS
 
Sri KRS
I felt the following expression in Sri Vivek's post was not in good taste;
'if indeed the tamilians consider you one of them'.
Personally I would not make such a comment. If you feel that it was OK, I just say sorry to have troubled you.
regds

Dear Sri Saarangam Ji,

You have not troubled me at all. Thank you for pointing out the passage. It is just that when I went over the sentence several times over, within the context of what was being discussed, I did not feel that it was said to hurt the feelings of Sri Sangom Ji. That's all.

Again, thanks.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Shri KRS,
...Let us not please throw around words like 'rhetoric' please.
I used the word "rhetoric" in the following sense,
"Rhetoric is the art and study of the use of language with persuasive effect. In Aristotle's systematization of rhetoric, one important aspect of rhetoric to study and theorize was the three persuasive audience appeals:" (from Wikipedia)
If you don't like the word I won't use it.

If there is no other way to uplift the disadvantaged, then may be I can accept this. But there are. The only reason the govt. has this for higher education is for political purposes, and as I have cites a paper before (Prof. Nara thought that it backed up his stand), the system has not really made any difference. The answer is to improve, help and assist the 'injured' community students well before they enter college.
The paper argued that the present system has not done enough, not that it is a failure. Yes, the authors argued for more help at the elementary and high school level, but they did not say that the reservation system has failed to help, nor that it must be done away with. Since you did not accept my reading of the paper I even contacted one of the coauthors and he confirmed my reading. I posted the entire e-mail exchange at that time.

We need to take into account that college education in India, in the most part, is all about getting a job and making money. It is not like you go to college, figure out what you like, and then major in it and go on from there. It is all about what field is hot for jobs and money. During IT boom, everybody wanted to do Computer stuff. After the bust and the IT jobs in the U.S. dried up, they couldn't even fill up all the seats. In other words, college education in India is more of a conduit to middle-class life than in the U.S., even though here also it is fast becoming that way.

So, to provide opportunity for upward mobility for whom it was long denied, in a limited resources environment, tough choices have to be made. When all the alternatives involve some sort of injury to somebody, we need to choose the one that provides more benefits to more people and less injury to least number of people. All we have to make sure is that these choices are not made in a capricious way, and that is what democracy and the rule of law are for.

You say there are many in your family who were injured by this system. What happened to them? Did they not get to go to college? What I am getting at is, these people may have been disappointed by not able to pursue medicine or computer science or whatever they had their mind set on. But, I am sure all of them found other avenues of success and are not suffering, and I am sure they all found very rewarding careers. Not too much of an injury in exchange for a Dalit or BC becoming a doctor or engineer, first one in their family ever.

Cheers!
 
Dear SriKunjuppu Ji,

Let us not please throw around words like 'rhetoric' please.

We are all discussing policy here.

First of all, all the research papers on the quota system in India, start with the phrase 'The first of a kind system anywhere in the world....'

dear KRS,

can you please explain your first two lines? not sure what it means.

also re the third line, i do not know about research papers. but i do know about what soviet union did re reserving higher education only for children of peasants, factory workers and soldiers.

thank you.
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Sorry, in my opinion the word rhetoric in todays time is this from Wikipedia: The contemporary stereotype of rhetoric as "empty speech" or "empty words" reflects a radical division of rhetoric from knowledge. I am glad you will not use it.

The study I have posted, essentially was done to find the cause and effect of the quota system. The authors admitted that they could not establish one, shockingly after 50 odd years.

Yes you did write to one of the authors. That person reiterated that the quota system should continue on as AN OPINION. Not because of any evidence to the efficacy of the system.

There are very few studies done on a system that essentially is a very major social initiative by the Indian government. You would think that the government would have done studies at least to improve on the program. Why not? Forum readers can decide for themselves as to the reasons.

What the authors had found - which I have been harping on - is that by the time the disadvantaged communities kids enter secondary education, their future is set. Because these communities do not take education seriously, they drop out as they are not treated well by their teachers. Secondary school and High school is where the remedies need to be applied, not when they enter college.

I am all for getting these kids on to a level playing field. Personally I would help all poor kids, but okay, if the govt. is going to help only some communities, that is okay. The current syatem does not do that.

I hate any discrimination towards any citizens by any government. You insist that these forward community kids are not really injured! This is because you want to correct the past inequities with current inequities. How do you tell a person that it is okay to be a biologist, when he wanted to be a doctor, just beacuse he happened to be born in to a forward community? I do not agree with your definition of why people go to college in India. May be not the same as in USA, but they do have dreams of what they would do in the future.

A free country should not discriminate against any group with it's policies, especially when other means are available to uplift certain communities. The quota system was introduced precisely as a dual effect weapon: Feel good about 'uplifting' the backward communities without really doing it and punish those born in to those forward communities because of a system that they have nothing to do with.

I will never support any quota system anywhere. Not only it is morally wrong, it now exactly practices the same discrimination in a reverse manner that it is supposed to solve for the backward communities. It is just evil, as much as the degenerate caste system has been.

Yes, it is legal in India. But that does not mean that I should think it is a splendid system.

Regards
KRS
 
What insinuation?

Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

Do you feel slighted?

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

Thank you for asking my views on this point.

I would not be able to take this one sentence in isolation, but would be influenced by the tenor of all the past posts of Shri Vivek addressed to me. Of course our points of view on whether DK/DMk's anti-brahmanism is justified or whether the 69 percent reservation is equitable, are diametrically opposite. But Shri Vivek appears to have taken it as some sort of personal issue and has been criticising me (not my pov) in many of the past posts in another thread [URL="http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/5842-test-varna-other-than-birth-8.html#post70398"](here[/URL]) so much so, that at one point I had to appeal to Shri Praveen and get personal innuendos removed. Still, you may find usage like "alphadog" to denote me, and perhaps Shri Nara too, which, though escaping the limits of obscenity, should have been avoided, IMO.

You will also find that Shri Vivek does not like to give supporting evidence for his many statements but goes on insisting on his points. I requested him, in one post, to present a write up giving his pov with adequate supporting evidence so that, in case it is really appealing and persuasive, I would concede that my views are wrong. But he did not deign to prepare any such write up and stated that one of his posts itself could be taken as the write-up.

Viewed in the above backdrop I will consider that it was not fair on the part of Vivek to make any comments about whether the Tamil people will consider me as a Tamilian; that is none of his business and the same question can be relevant in his case also.

It is because of these characteristics of Shri Vivek and the absence of any moderator till recently, that I decided to stop responding to his posts, so I had skipped it. I read it only after seeing Shri Saarangam's post and that is why I did not make a fresh complaint.

I am thankful to Shri Saarangam for bringing this to your notice. Now the rest is up to you.

Thank you for your response - I did not know the history and so did not know the context. On the surface it looked as an innocuous comment. I am removing the comment, which I am sure Sri Vivek Ji would not object to, given a fellow Forum member's sentiment - KRS
 
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Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

I have explained about the first line in my post to the Professor above.

The second line is related to the first one - I was trying to say that I was not engaged in polemics but earnest discussions about a policy of the Indian govt.

The third item - Iquoted my line, dirctly lifting out of a research paper on the quota system. I was not aware of the Soviet quota system. Can you point me to appropriate sources? Sounds interesting.

Regards,
KRS
dear KRS,

can you please explain your first two lines? not sure what it means.

also re the third line, i do not know about research papers. but i do know about what soviet union did re reserving higher education only for children of peasants, factory workers and soldiers.

thank you.
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,


I hate any discrimination towards any citizens by any government. You insist that these forward community kids are not really injured! This is because you want to correct the past inequities with current inequities. How do you tell a person that it is okay to be a biologist, when he wanted to be a doctor, just beacuse he happened to be born in to a forward community? I do not agree with your definition of why people go to college in India. May be not the same as in USA, but they do have dreams of what they would do in the future.

A free country should not discriminate against any group with it's policies, especially when other means are available to uplift certain communities. The quota system was introduced precisely as a dual effect weapon: Feel good about 'uplifting' the backward communities without really doing it and punish those born in to those forward communities because of a system that they have nothing to do with.

Dear Shri KRS,

As a physicist you will agree that a pendulum when pulled to one end and released, does not come to rest in the vertical position in the first opportunity itself; it does only when all the stored-up potential energy has been dissipated by use as kinetic energy. So, there will be a series of oscillations before it finds stability. IMO, the same thing applies here. The discrimination will have to go to the other end, and who knows, perhaps back to the original side, like that. When we say, "How do you tell a person that it is okay to be a biologist, when he wanted to be a doctor, just beacuse he happened to be born in to a forward community?", it should also be remembered that it is the same society which said till very recently, "You are born in such-and-such community, so you cannot hope for anything except what your parents did; don't aspire for anything - even entering a temple - because it is a sin and also a punishable crime here and now."

The potential resentment could have resulted in widespread bloodshed had the GOI not embarked on the reservation system and had some capable leader come into the scene who would just kindle the first spark of violent revolution.I, therefore, feel that we are all able to comfortably criticize the reservation system just because of the security it has created for human lives, whatever its drawbacks may be.


 
Dear Shri KRS,

.... You insist that these forward community kids are not really injured! This is because you want to correct the past inequities with current inequities.
I disagree that a past inequity is being corrected with present inequity, there is no equivalence here of any kind. IMO, grotesque oppression of the past is being addressed with present preferential treatment that has some cost to the FCs, but nothing even remotely close to what was visited upon these unfortunate people for centuries.


The quota system was introduced precisely as a dual effect weapon: Feel good about 'uplifting' the backward communities without really doing it and punish those born in to those forward communities because of a system that they have nothing to do with.
This opinion is equal to accepting all the assets of the parent, but refusing to accept the liabilities.

A poor BC or Dalit getting to college is probably the first one in his/her family history. When these young kids look around all they see are illiterate to barely literate friends and relatives toiling from sunup to sunset, living in isolated cheris, with frequent clashes resulting in violence. Yet, these kids meet the cut off marks and get a chance at a dream that their parents and grandparents were not allowed to even dream about.

In contrast, the present day FCs inherit all the advantages of their FC forefathers. An FC boy/girl, surrounded by highly educated and successful friends and relatives, a plethora of role-models, all encouraging them to study, provide them with tuition and coaching, get to be a successful micro-biologist instead of his/her dream of being a doctor, is a very small price to pay.

All the paper said was the difference between the % of FC and BC/Dalits reaching college still remains the same and they pointed out that this is because of the increasing numbers of BC/Dalits finishing school. This data does not show that the system failed to deliver, but only that the job still remains largely unfinished.

I will never support any quota system anywhere. Not only it is morally wrong, it now exactly practices the same discrimination in a reverse manner that it is supposed to solve for the backward communities. It is just evil, as much as the degenerate caste system has been.
Of course, it goes without saying, I totally disagree with this assessment. To say the reservation system is just as evil as the caste system, IMO, has the effect of conflating what real evil is. (I edited this last sentence because what I originally said went further than what I was trying to say.)

Thanks Shri KRS, Cheers!
 
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dear KRS,

in the interest of brevity i have cut and pasted 4 short paras. this is from one author, and googling i could find several more resources with similar reporting.

the book is 'soviet russia' by william henry chamberlin and written around 1929, just before stalin's corruption started.

i have to confess that i did not find specific quotas mentioned, except that preference was given to children of peasants, workers etc. ofcourse, there were no other private universities to cater to the needs of the erstwhile aristocracy. whose turn it was to become toilers and peasants now, i guess.

Soviet Russia | Chpt. 12

In general, however, the most impressive feature of the Soviet universities is not so much the change in objects and methods of study as the transformation of the character of the student body. The pre-war Russian students were predominantly recruited from well-to-do and educated families. Children of workers and peasants were not barred from higher education; but force of economic circumstances, combined with the inadequate provision of preliminary education, kept them a small minority of the student body. There were stringent limitations on the number of Jews who might be admitted to the high schools and universities.

No racial admission lines are drawn by the Soviet universities, but some very strict class barriers have been set up, and to-day it is rare indeed for a rich man's son or daughter to enter a Soviet higher institution of learning. In this respect the wheel of fortune has swung full circle; the children of the most respected classes of the old regime, of the former nobility, of merchants and of priests, are visited with even stricter disabilities than were imposed upon Jews in Tsarist times. The offspring of the classes which come under the heading "toiling intelligentsia" - that is, engineers, doctors, teachers, etc. - receive more favorable consideration, and this also holds true for children of state employees.

But the main objective of Communist policy in the universities is to fill them up with workers and children of workers as rapidly as possible. Over the building of the Moscow University is written the slogan, "Science - for the Toilers," and the commissions which pass on candidates for entrance to the universities are trying to carry this slogan into practice by admitting just as many red-blooded applicants who can point to a pure proletarian origin as is possible without breaking down all required standards.

The 20,865 students who were admitted to the universities of Russia proper (excluding Ukraina, White Russia, and the Trans-Caucasus) in the autumn of 1928 were divided as follows, according to social origin: workers and children of workers, 41.6 per cent; peasants and children of peasants, 26.5 per cent; children of specialists and intelligentsia, 11.3 per cent; children of employees, 19.1 per cent; others, 1.5 per cent. The proportion of working-class students admitted at this time was higher than in any previous year.
 
Sri KRS

"As I have said before, I oppose quotas of any kind favoring any 'injured' party in the past. Fundamentally this 'injures' the present generation for the perceived 'blanket' sins of their forefathers. Helping an injured party is one thing, but doing so by injuring another party is another."

Thank you for putting this in words so well.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Sri Saarangam

"I feel Sri Vivek is crossing the limit in throwing personal insinuations against a member of the forum as reflected in the above
quote."

Sorry if you felt that way, it wasn't my intention. Anyway, I won't go to type another series of long posts here. I feel the
comment of KRS (which I quoted in post # 141 just above), precisely pointed, part of what I was trying to say.

The statement I said "if indeed they consider you (ie. Sangom, a TB) as a tamilian" comes from what I tend to feel from
comments here and from the polity's ideology. Certain comments here and of the DMK ruling polity's ideology tells me just that - a TB is a "foreign aryan", an oppressor, an evil.

But not by the widest stretch of imagination my statement an attack on Sangom. It would have made some sense if you considered it an attack on tamilians, but it wasn't that either (let me make that clear too).

Its okay that KRS as a moderator editted that portion out. The remainder of what I typed in post # 125 though is still relevant to my point.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Sri Nara

"You say there are many in your family who were injured by this system. What happened to them? Did they not get to go to
college? What I am getting at is, these people may have been disappointed by not able to pursue medicine or computer science
or whatever they had their mind set on. But, I am sure all of them found other avenues of success and are not suffering, and I
am sure they all found very rewarding careers."

TBs doing rewarding careers has to do with them not the DK. Does it become right to rob a man saying he is financially well after some days? What I am discussing here is the morality in accepting the policy of the DK and even its wrapped up version of TBs role in history.

The nonsense of "dravidian parties" which have wrongly (factually and morally) cornered TB legacy to only that of oppressors
and casteism, too is wrong. Their rhetoric becomes the same as those parties which corner all muslims (in India) as "Babur ki
aulad" or Son of Babur (a negative expression to Muslims as the Babur destroyed many Indians).

The racial mumbo-jumbo of parties like DMK spread hate and failed to shed light on the actual reasons for which brahmins held
office in majority at a time.

Recognizing for instance, that brahmins found it important to be educated and thus were able to keep up with times, and that any person in modern India would do well to regard education too, would actually have helped lower sections rise by recognizing the facts which lead to the situation in TN at the time.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
namaste smt. HappyHindu.

1) Does the Tholkappiyam text use the term "varna"?

2) Did Tholkappiyam designate social divisions "fixed by birth", meaning does it disallow mobility across the varnas?

3) Were slaves and untouchables mentioned in Tholkappiyam? [I have never found untouchability a sin when practiced within homes and outside homes for a valid reason. But telling a man that he is untouchable because of his birth does not go well with me..i cannot imagine labelling a new born child an untouchable by birth].

4) Was the use of force against any social grouping permitted / mentioned in Tholkappiyam?

varNa and jAti in ancient Tamizh social setup: some evidences

TolkAppiyam, as you are aware, is a work of Tamizh grammar and not a collection of poems like the other Sangham works. According to many scholars, TolkAppiyam pre-dates the third Tamizh Sangham held at Madurai. Of its three adhikArams--ezhutthu--alphabet, sol--word, and poruL--content--in poruLadhikAram, it talks about the social set up as it existed in the Tamizh lands. The verse "aRuvakappaTTa pArppanap pakkamum" that I have quoted in my post no.105, speaks about the four varNas and three occupational classes. In the verse, the term pakkam--part, is the contextual equivalent of the Sanskrit term varNa.

We should note that the Tamizh country then was divided into five tiNais--regions, based on their geographical formation, which decided the life and occupation of the majority public who inhabited the regions. Kings and chieftains ruled these regions and periodically warred with each other, so public life, especially of a young couple who were married or ready to marry each other, was sung in two tiNais--aham, their internal life of love and separation, and puram--their external life, wherein the young man often went to join the king's army in a war, or ventured into other lands in search of fortune and fame.

In these circumstances, it was their jAti/kulam--occupational caste, and kuDi--family lineage, which were the visible marks of their social set up, and the four varNas that TolkAppiyam defines was only an overall, inclusive classification, which could mean that there were no people who were explicitly considered as shUdras or untouchables. As for inter-varNa movement, it seems that this movement did take place among the three other varNas than the brAhmaNa varNa. In my recent limited acquaintance with Tamizh literature, I am yet to find a mention of a person who did not belong to the brAhmaNa varNa, seeking to become a brAhmaNa, and granted such status (as in the case of SatyakAma).

One reason could be the prescription of education for the other varNas, as given in the TolkAppiyam verse I have quoted. The education of the people of the fourth varNa was prescribed as 'vedam ozhinda kalvi'--education sans the Vedas, while the eligibility of the people of kShatriya and vyshya varNas to study the Vedas, probably excluding their performance of the veda yajnas, except in the capacity of a yajamAna.

Since family occupation was mostly practised, it seems jAti devolved by birth, although there could have been exceptions. There was no discrmination or hostility among the jAtis, whose economic levels could have widely varied. People who were well educated, irrespective or their varNa and jAti, were highly respected by all other people.

*****

Following are some sample quotes from the Sangham literature about jAti, kuDi, kulam and varNa and the fact that nobility can be found in all varNas and jAtis:

puRa~nAnURu 183: education is the key to respect

வேற்றுமை தெரிந்த நாற்பா லுள்ளும்
கீழ்ப்பா லொருவன் கற்பில்
மேற்பா லொருவனும் அவன்கட் படுமே
--புறநானூறு, 183

vERRumai teri~nda ~nARpA luLLum
kIzhppA loruvan kaRpil
mERpA loruvanum avankaT paDumE

Of the four differentiated varNas, if a man of a lower varNa is well educated, a man of a higher varNa would approach him to learn without entertaining any difference in status, and respect him.

pazhamozhi ~nAnURu 21: family occupation is a natural vocation

உரை முடிவு காணான் இளமையோன் என்ற
நரை முது மக்கள் உவப்ப நரை முடித்து
சொல்லால் முறை செய்தான் சோழன்--குல விச்சை
கல்லாமல் பாகம் படும்

urai muDivu kANAn iLamaiyOn enRa
~narai mudu makkaL uvappa ~narai muDitthu
sollAl muRai seydAn chOzhan--kula vichchai
kallAmal pAkam paDum

'One who is not filled with the knowledge to find the right justice for a case, and one who is young'--thus the elders in the court jeered at him, but to their delight, the young Chozha king, came under the disguise of an old man and dispensed the right justice using their own words. Thus, the family occupation comes naturally to a man without learning it.

In this verse, the author refers to how the ancient Chozha king KarikAl PeruvaLatthAn (450-380 BCE) disguised, who ascended to the throne in young age, disguised himself as an old man to give verdict to a dispute.

avvaiyAr's mUDurai 4: nobility shines in poverty

அட்டாலும் பால்சுவையிற் குன்றா தளவாய்
நட்டாலும் நண்பல்லார் நண்பல்லர்
கெட்டாலும் மேன்மக்கள் மேன்மக்களே--சங்கு
சுட்டாலும் வெண்மை தரும்

aTTAlum pAlsuvaiyiR kunRA daLavAy
~naTTAlum ~naNballAr ~naNballar
keTTAlum mEnmakkaL mEnmakkaLE--sa~ggu
suTTAlum veNmai tarum

Milk, even if it is heated, will not be devoid of its taste.
Those who don't have the quality of friend in them,
even if they mix with the nobles and becomes friends,
and the nobles come to penury by their company,
they would still remain as nobles, with their distinct qualities.
For the conch becomes whiter when it is heated up.

avvaiyAr's ~nannUl 12: farmers are matchless ever

ஆற்றங்கரையின் மரமும் அரசறிய
வீற்றிருந்த வாழ்வும் விழுமன்றே--ஏற்றம்
உழுதுண்டு வாழ்வதற்கு ஒப்பில்லை கண்டீர்
பழுதுண்டு வேரோர் பணிக்கு

ARRa~gkaraiyin maramum arasaRiya
vIRRiru~nda vAzhvum vizhumanRE--ERRam
uzhuduNDu vAzhvadaRku oppillai kaNDIr
pazhuduNDu vErOr paNikku

The tree that is on the banks of the river,
and the king who rules today with all glory
won't they fall one day?
There is no match in loftiness for living by cultivating the land,
any other job has its shortfalls.

perungkathai canto 3, ch.4: description of a city

தேவ குலனுந் தேசிகப் பாடியும்
மாவுந் தேரு மயங்கிய மறுகும்
காவுந் தெற்றியுங் கடவுட் பள்ளியும்
தடவளர் செந்தீ முதல்வர் சாலையும்
வேண்டிடந் தோறுங் காண்டக நெருங்கி
ஆதி யாகி யமந்தவனப் பெய்தி
மயங்கிய மாந்தர்த்தாகி யார்க்கும்
இயங்குதற் கின்னாப் புறம்பணைச் சேரியும்
அந்தண் பாடியு மணுகி யல்லது
வெந்திறல் வேகமொடு விளக்குதற் கரிய
ஐங்கணைக் கிழவ னமர்ந்து நிலைபெற்ற
எழுதுவினைத் திருநக ரெழிலுற வெய்தி

dEva kulanu~n dEsikap pADiyum
mAvu~n tEru maya~ggiya maRukum
kAvu~n theRRiyu~g kaDavuT paLLiyum
taDavaLar se~nthI mudalvar sAlaiyum
vENDiDa~n thORu~g kANDaka ~neru~ggi
Adi yAki yama~ndavanap peydi
maya~ggiya mA~ndartthAgi yArkkum
iya~ggutaR kinnAp puRambaNaich chEriyum
a~ndaN pADiyu maNugi yalladu
ve~nthiRal vEgamoDu viLakkudaR kariya
ai~ggaNaik kizhava namar~ndu ~nilaipeRRa
ezhuduvinait tiru~naga rezhiluRa veydi

The beautiful city had a temple,
and a dEsikach chEri, where merchants from other countries reside,
streets mingled with the three armies of elephants, horses and chariots,
flower gardens, and public platforms,
residences of the ascetics,
the vELvich chAlai--yajna maNdapas, of pArppAns--brAhmaNas,
who raise the three fires in the yajna-kuNDam,
all well set in their assigned areas, spectacular and crowded,
with throngs of people all around that made passage difficult;
with the chEris of (other) communities,
and the andhaNpADi--streets of brAhmaNas, nearby.

*****

The impression I get when I read verses like the above, is that the ancient Tamizh society certainly was based on the four varNas and numerous jAtis, with movement from the jAtis of the fourth varNa upwards, except for the vedic tasks of the brAhmaNa varNa, which tradition was well respected and fostered.

*****
 
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Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

I understand the valid reasons behind the motives to implement the Quota system. Yes, we have a large portion of the population in India, who were not prepared to succeed in the modern world, due to the caste system.

But the quota system is an easy way out. As I have said, GOI at that time, through Panchayats and local bodies could have opted to really change the system at the ground level, from the secondary school level. But it would have taken real money and effort. Instead they have opted for a system that really has not catered to the disadvantaged - it is like giving permission to a group of people who do not know how to swim to compete freely in the Olympics. The people giving permission feel guilt free, but except for a few who mange to compete, there is no real advancement. In the meanwhile, on the ground, the disadvantaged keep on getting discriminated against, despite the prevailing laws and they fall farther and farther in terms of competing in the modern world - the real loser in all this is India.

As I have said, there is no real Government study on the fact whether the system works. Yet, all the institutions of GOI fervently support the system. This leads me to another question - is this because all political parties want to keep down the disadvantaged to count them on as vote banks, because there is no real political representation at the national level for these folks? Seems to me that the upper castes are still dominating.

And in the mean time, you have a whole section of the so called forward castes (be it 3% or whatever percentage), feeling alienated from the process of integration.

I know my voice is not going to change anything and perhaps a lone voice. These are my own true thoughts on the subject.

Please read the attached from an IIT intellectual.
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?article_class=3&no=330365&rel_no=1

Regards,
KRS
Dear Shri KRS,

As a physicist you will agree that a pendulum when pulled to one end and released, does not come to rest in the vertical position in the first opportunity itself; it does only when all the stored-up potential energy has been dissipated by use as kinetic energy. So, there will be a series of oscillations before it finds stability. IMO, the same thing applies here. The discrimination will have to go to the other end, and who knows, perhaps back to the original side, like that. When we say, "How do you tell a person that it is okay to be a biologist, when he wanted to be a doctor, just beacuse he happened to be born in to a forward community?", it should also be remembered that it is the same society which said till very recently, "You are born in such-and-such community, so you cannot hope for anything except what your parents did; don't aspire for anything - even entering a temple - because it is a sin and also a punishable crime here and now."

The potential resentment could have resulted in widespread bloodshed had the GOI not embarked on the reservation system and had some capable leader come into the scene who would just kindle the first spark of violent revolution.I, therefore, feel that we are all able to comfortably criticize the reservation system just because of the security it has created for human lives, whatever its drawbacks may be.


 
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Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You said:

This opinion is equal to accepting all the assets of the parent, but refusing to accept the liabilities.


Again despite the repeated assertions from you, this clearly shows the punitive intent. No one is arguing the point that these disadvantaged groups must be helped, both financially and otherwise. Thus, after independence, castes were outlawed and anti discrimination laws are in the books (whether they are being enforced is another matter). So, as I have said laong ago, that is paying back the liabilities.

Your argument that the children of the forward castes have undue advantage to succeed in the modern world is also true. But then, as I have said before, life is not fair. And the unfairest of them all is the gift one gets through a combination of genes that make them special. Are you going to then banish the born gifted from benefiting from those talents? (Do I smell a whiff of socialistic philosophy here?)

If meat becomes the only staple in India, guess what? Those lowly meat wallahs can benefit enormously from that. Did the forward community forefathers foresaw the industrial revolution and thus restricted the practice of what today we call the intellectual endeavors only to their own communities because of that?

Please read the following paper from Stanford University:
http://scid.stanford.edu/system/files/shared/Anjini_K_paper.pdf
It concludes: "Given this, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the quota
system benefits only a minority of the SC/ST households who are
intended to be its primary beneficiary, while imposing significant costs on
other households in terms of their levels of human capital. By so doing,
the policy contributes to low levels of human capital in the economy as a
whole."


You have also said:
All the paper said was the difference between the % of FC and BC/Dalits reaching college still remains the same and they pointed out that this is because of the increasing numbers of BC/Dalits finishing school. This data does not show that the system failed to deliver, but only that the job still remains largely unfinished.

Again, as I have pointed out earlier, the scientific study I posted long ago (by the way, I can not find it anymore, if you can post it again, I would appreciate it), as you say did not find any correlation between the advancement of the disadvantaged groups in to colleges, and yet try to argue thgat the system must be kept in place! This reminds me the adage, doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of madness.

90% of the disadvantaged students fail and/or drop out of IIT. Reason? They did not have a proper foundation in their early education. We have not only failed their forefathers and by taking the easy route of quotas, we are failing their present generation as well, not to mention other groups as well.

In this respect please read this with open mind. Please look at the conclusion and the 2 major demerits for the quota system. (The author is an advocate to be).
http://www.ili.ac.in/pdf/article_2.pdf

Even with all this if you still think that your position on this is the way to go, then what can I say? We will agree to disagree and the fair minded readership can make up their minds one way or another based on our discussions.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Shir KRS,

We will agree to disagree and the fair minded readership can make up their minds one way or another based on our discussions.

I agree, this is where we have to leave this exchange. But I want to record some clarifications.

Again despite the repeated assertions from you, this clearly shows the punitive intent.
I have no punitive intent at all. What I object to is the continuing characterization that reservation system is somehow a punishment. I think I have shown that it is not. If there are people who still believe it is punishment, then, under that condition, I am suggesting to them to look at it as part and parcel of ancestral assets and liability, as a way of dealing with the victimhood feeling many Brahmins are nursing.

Your argument that the children of the forward castes have undue advantage to succeed in the modern world is also true.
I don't consider these advantages as "undue". It is just an observation that FCs do enjoy tremendous advantages in the form of cultural assets passed down from their ancestors.

Are you going to then banish the born gifted from benefiting from those talents? (Do I smell a whiff of socialistic philosophy here?)
If you think socialistic philosophy is about banishing the talented, then I must say you have a very convoluted idea of what socialism is.

(by the way, I can not find it anymore, if you can post it again, I would appreciate it),
I will look for it and post it, sure.

as you say did not find any correlation between the advancement of the disadvantaged groups in to colleges, and yet try to argue thgat the system must be kept in place!
This is not what the paper said and this is not what I said. The paper said in % terms the difference between FC and BC/Dalit remains the same, but in terms of raw number BC and Dalits have made tremendous progress directly due to the reservation system. The also point out that at all levels, disparity continues to exists including the so called creamy layer. In other words, they tried to show that withdrawing reservation at any level including the creamy layer is not a good idea and will have negative effects in terms of access.

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Thank you for posting about the Russian education. Looks like not a quota policy, but rather an informal official discriminatory actions by the Govt. It is clear that the off springs of ex nobles, intellectuals and Jews in general were discriminated against in gaining admissions to higher education.

The Communist countries, in general were/are good at locating talent at particular fields at young age and cultivating that talent, especially as we know, in Sports, Arts etc. Given that the Statistics you have posted still showing considerable percentage of students from the discriminated groups, do you think that this selecting talents for all disciplines was the reason?

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Professor Nara Ji,

1. To know that the quota system is punitive, please read the article from one Laskar I posted above. It clearly shows how they are injured.

2. I do not remember the conclusions by the research paper as you describe it. The research did not show 'in terms of raw number BC and Dalits have made tremendous progress directly due to the reservation system. The also point out that at all levels, disparity continues to exists including the so called creamy layer. In other words, they tried to show that withdrawing reservation at any level including the creamy layer is not a good idea and will have negative effects in terms of access.' (I am old and therefore subject to memory lapses and so if you can find the paper, and post it it would be of value to our members).

I had to post the above as clarifications and comments by me, not to have the last word.

Regards,
KRS
 
... (by the way, I can not find it anymore, if you can post it again, I would appreciate it),
Dear Shri KRS, here is the post in which you cited the paper. The link to the paper works. Please follow the ensuing exchange from there, the responses are not in in quick succession, so you have to look for them in the following pages.

Thanks for the exchange, I am sure readers will make up their mind based on the facts we tried to present and their own life experiences.

Cheers!
 
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