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A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

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Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

My purpose was not to question anything about the efficacy of the communist model. If you think that model is great, fine.

Soviet Union detested Jews. My late wife was a product of their policies when her grand parents emigrated (escaped from there).

So, if you think that their policies produced brilliant folks outside of their discriminated groups, okay, fine.

The point I wanted to make was that, it is just not enough to open the facilities to the disadvantaged, without all the preparation to let them succeed at those levels.

If you still think I am wrong, okay. What else I can say?

Regards,
KRS
 
Sri Nara

"But, partly due to the progressive policies adopted by the government, reservation being just one part of it, Shivajis of today are able to go on and become great scientists and thinkers."

Nara, reservation is not a progressive policy. Can you tell me why reservations based on caste should be made instead of randomizing names? Even reservations based on finance are better actually because a family can't afford it for their children.

KRS' personal story in which the 5th standard boy was not given education because his parents didn't find it being required is exactly the type of mindset that should be removed. And that is not done by reservations or by hurling abuses at brahmins. Its done by changing the way a community thinks. This should be any really progressive policies aim.

EVR's family itself didn't have the inclination to continue his education. After having such a mind set, its not justified IMO to use the tactic of reservation to remove brahmins merely because they did keep up with times.
I wouldn't like a society were a minority like brahmins hold most office either, but the means to occupy posts should be a fair game based on merit, not reservations.

People here are quick to take objection if Abdul Kalam is called a brahmin (not that I said it, someone did though), while ignoring that he himself would give thanks to many brahmins who helped him. Brahmins did bring India to the modern era in many ways, and it did have to do with their culture. DK won't care to call any of that "brahminism".

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

My purpose was not to question anything about the efficacy of the communist model. If you think that model is great, fine.

Soviet Union detested Jews. My late wife was a product of their policies when her grand parents emigrated (escaped from there).

So, if you think that their policies produced brilliant folks outside of their discriminated groups, okay, fine.

The point I wanted to make was that, it is just not enough to open the facilities to the disadvantaged, without all the preparation to let them succeed at those levels.

If you still think I am wrong, okay. What else I can say?

Regards,
KRS

wanted to comment on a couple of things, but found the thread closed.

first re jews and soviet union: the bolshevik revolution was fuelled primarily by jewish enthusiasm. for the educated and idealistic jew, this was a way out of racial classification, and a chance to integrate with the rest of the population.

interestingly, it was only in germany, that the jews were completely accepted as equals. this coming immediately after bismarck's revolution from the top. in england, france and in other countries of western europe, the jew was still considered an alien. the situation was worse east of germany.

anti semitism, reared its head again, post WW2 with stalin's paranoia. stalin concoted the 'doctor's plot' which accused the jewish doctors of planning to murder. the first post soviet pogrom against the jews did not happen, only because stalin died.

post stalin, the anti semitism got fillip from the existence of israel. the mid east situation is too complex to deal here, but has resulted in any anti israeli statement being painted as anti semitic.

to the best of my knowledge, situation of the jews, were never so bad in ussr for them to be afraid of their lives. in fact credit goes to ussr for saving vast number of polish jews who retreated with the red army, during the nazi onslaught.

now, pre revolution russia: that is a different story altogether
 
back to the future

as early as 1990, naipaul, in his, 'india - a million mutinies now', has lamented the changing fortunes of tambrams.

to me, naipaul is essentially a western colonial, albeit clad in a brown skin. naipaul i consider, the best among the colonials, but still a colonial.

after that, apart from some bleatings about tambram exile, no detailed or objective observation of our history in the latter part of 20th century has been done.

perhaps, it is too soon, but i figure in the next 25 - 50 years, our travails would be looked at through a historian's glass.

i think, the journeys of the tambrams starting from 1901 to 1999, is among the largest migration of a community during peace time. the bulk reason is economic, but it does not hurt to derive a few drops of tears in the name of persecution. in the context of indian history, the concept of a persecuted brahmin, ours is a first.

perhaps an enlightened tamil historian, would, and can look back, at the tambram contribution to tamil culture, dispassionately and acknowledge those that needs to be acknowledged. we only hope that our warts, if not completely forgotten, are atleast minimized.
 
Sri KRS & Sri Nacchinarkinyan

"Your posting to me comes across as not respecting him. Please do present your queries, but not in a way that seems disrespectful."

I hope Sri Nacchinarkinyan didn't find it so. If he did I am apologetic. I obviously don't go ahead to find the age of the person I am replying to. I was offended very deeply by comments Sangom said of brahmins too regarding "abracadabra". Should I complain of offense? I certainly don't see the point because to me as long as foul language is not used, its a fair part of the discussion.

I am quiet upset that I seem to be seeing excuses for the DK policy. My question was very genuine: What is the relevance of the deities that so and so community worships to a government policy? It was not to sound rude.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Sri Kunjuppu

"i think, the journeys of the tambrams starting from 1901 to 1999, is among the largest migration of a community during peace time. the bulk reason is economic, but it does not hurt to derive a few drops of tears in the name of persecution. "

I agree that prosecution is a big word, and that brahmins didn't face it in the same way or in any measure comparable to the way Jews did. If brahmins had retaliated it would have become an event in India, but we found opportunities elsewhere. That however....

...... still doesn't justify the wrapped up history that DK has propagated about us going all the way to call casteism by our name, when the worst forms of it happening in many rural areas have nothing to do with us.

The version of DK's idea of "brahmin culture" is also factually wrong when it only focusses on untouchability and casteism as being "brahmin" in nature ignoring other aspects like education. Even if DK's version of history was a past thing, we could have let it out. But clearly after discussing in this forum, we can see that is not the case. We have people who are not ready to owe up to saying that the DK rhetoric and policy was indeed, categorically immoral.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

My purpose was not to question anything about the efficacy of the communist model. If you think that model is great, fine.

Soviet Union detested Jews. My late wife was a product of their policies when her grand parents emigrated (escaped from there).

So, if you think that their policies produced brilliant folks outside of their discriminated groups, okay, fine.

The point I wanted to make was that, it is just not enough to open the facilities to the disadvantaged, without all the preparation to let them succeed at those levels.

If you still think I am wrong, okay. What else I can say?

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

My point was that Nobel Prize win may not be the yardstick to gauge the superiority of any particular group. And now, I have a fresh doubt—kindly excuse me for that. The sentence in blue-bold looks to me to be contradictory to your views on reservations; there you say that it is enough to open up the facilities for education for the disadvantaged sections, and job/admissions reservation is inequitable, whereas here the import seems to be that all facilities to let them succeed —which will mean admissions to the highly competitive and in-short-supply seats/jobs in their case. Or, am I getting confused?
 
Sri KRS & Sri Nacchinarkinyan

"Your posting to me comes across as not respecting him. Please do present your queries, but not in a way that seems disrespectful."

I hope Sri Nacchinarkinyan didn't find it so. If he did I am apologetic. I obviously don't go ahead to find the age of the person I am replying to. I was offended very deeply by comments Sangom said of brahmins too regarding "abracadabra". Should I complain of offense? I certainly don't see the point because to me as long as foul language is not used, its a fair part of the discussion.

I am quiet upset that I seem to be seeing excuses for the DK policy. My question was very genuine: What is the relevance of the deities that so and so community worships to a government policy? It was not to sound rude.

Regards,
Vivek.

Vivek, I saw your reply only now when I read your post. It is Okay. No offense taken.

My post was only an observation as to one of the reasons for the alienation between the Tamil brahmins and others.

You can read my views here. Long article in three parts based on a long discussion called "Why"

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/articles-guides/1743-countering-anti-brahminism-i.html
 
dear vivek,

i am very sorry that you are upset re 'acceptance' of DK by some of us. please do not be so.

society such as ours, is ancient and with it has come baggages compiled over time. over the period of last 100 years, humankind has experienced changes as never before. in fact, i think it might be fair to say that more things have turned topsy turvy in the past century than all the other centuries put together.

as a result of these changes, which i personally think rapidly brought about and transmitted through unabashed explosion of technology, has kept us all scrambling to find our balances in the ever changing society. thanks to internet, you and i communicate almost instantly, something that was not possible even 20 or so years ago. changes happening in one corner of the world is viewed and reacted in another remote corner instantaneously.

i think, it is worthwhile for all of us to step back and view this world from a mile high distance. perhaps we can get a perspective of the aims and aspirations of folks other than ours, and how we can all adjust ourselves to live together without killing ourselves.

periyar was speaking for the aspirations of the NB world of tamil culture. we were at the receiving end. we did not any moral or factual arguements to combat him. it is best to consider periyar as past, and consider how we can manage our situation in the tamil society form now on. i think, it is better, that you expend your energy on that. atleast then, there can be some positive results.

just yesterday MK appointed Dr. M.S.Swamnathan to chair the creation of five genetic garden heritage project. It is not right to say that tambrams are not prospering in tamil nadu, even in government sponsored activities. Padma Subramanyam was honoured by MK just recently.

We, as tambrams, may feel better, if we consider ourselves as one of the tamil tribes. and not a pre eminent one - something that has been force fed to us from mother's breast, atleast in the 20th century. i do not know about the previous centuries.

feel better dear vivek. life is too short to remember and brood over grudges.
 
Sri Sangom

"Lastly, I would draw your attention to a real case of one BC (Sree Narayana Guru's caste) who will belong to my generation - but is much younger, because of the large number of elder siblings, who has in just his lifetime, risen up from the untouchable farm-worker status of his father (a small thatched hut in "puramboke" land) to a brain surgeon of some repute, in my native place. I have written about it elsewhere - during your absence - but am not able to trace it out. I therefore hold that any talk of gene superiority will be unsubstantiated unless incontrovertible scientific proof is adduced. "

I am here saying brahmin culture was responsible in the influential role brahmins were able to play and the position they came to, not any genetics in particular. Having said that, I am still waiting for you to agree that DK was wrong in presenting a partial version of TBs in history or only calling casteism as part of our culture - going to label it "brahminism". Clearly brahmin culture was much more than that and had its positive side too.

If I tell anything here against you, it is considered disrespect. But your own post speaking of "abracadabra" was disrespectful to me, when you spoke of my community.

With due respect, Edtd - KRS you not being able to say DK's rhetoric and policy on brahmins was wrong. Instead you seem to be giving excuses to justify the policy even when casteism still exists in rural TN. KRS's statement (which I quoted in #141) was absolutely true too:

"As I have said before, I oppose quotas of any kind favoring any 'injured' party in the past. Fundamentally this 'injures' the present generation for the perceived 'blanket' sins of their forefathers. Helping an injured party is one thing, but doing so by injuring another party is another"

Also with respect again, I strongly feel that this issue of fighting casteism and this criminal/negative image of our community in the minds of tamilians (TBs or NBs) was your generations' duty which you failed to do.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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perhaps an enlightened tamil historian, would, and can look back, at the tambram contribution to tamil culture, dispassionately and acknowledge those that needs to be acknowledged. we only hope that our warts, if not completely forgotten, are atleast minimized.

Shri Kunjuppu,

My knowledge of Tamil literature (BTW, are you referring to the ancient Sangam period or the post-19th. century developments?) is very limited. Still my reading tells me that till the resurgence in the 19th. century when the proselytizing missionaries started learning Tamil and a feeling of "Tamil" culture arose in the minds of the Tamil people, there was a dark period during which nothing of great value was produced for centuries except the Bhakti literature of Azhvaras and the Saivite saints. In unearthing the old, ancient texts U.V. Swaminatha Iyer, Paritimal kalignar (?), two Brahmins did yeomen service but the result of their work, unfortunately, helped increase the Tamilian (Dravidan) vs Brahmanan (Aryan) divide which already was increasing due to sociological factors. The unearthing of the ancient palm leaf mss gave the necessary intellectual fuel for the anti-Brahmanism. And, this Paritimal was perhaps the first to start on "pure" Tamil, eschewing all sanskrit traces in Tamil. I would like to learn the correct position from knowledgeable members.
 
....With due respect, Edtd - KRS you not being able to say DK's rhetoric and policy on brahmins was wrong.
Edtd - KRS

The issues we discuss are not clear cut. There is no clear cut Yes or No answer. We come to our own answers after weighing all aspects of the issue based on our knowledge, experience and values. Disagreements between different individuals are inevitable. Edtd - KRS
 
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Sri Kunjuppu

I understand the fire of indignation inside EVR. But that still doesn't IMO justify his policy to me. Its not about just being considered one of the tribes, its about wrapping our legacy to anything evil DK could find in us. To DK the role of brahmins start and end with casteism. DK is a political party, I don't care - politicos are always up to such propaganda. But that people find this justified, that is only upsetting.

Anyway, I like your kind and encouraging words "feel better dear vivek. life is too short to remember and brood over grudges."

Thank you.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Vivek, I saw your reply only now when I read your post. It is Okay. No offense taken.

My post was only an observation as to one of the reasons for the alienation between the Tamil brahmins and others.

You can read my views here. Long article in three parts based on a long discussion called "Why"

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/articles-guides/1743-countering-anti-brahminism-i.html

nacchi,

that was a great write up. can you please provied the link to part 2?

thank you.
 
Sangom,

Please let me explain.

I am reading a book, North Star, by R.Chandramouli. the author is known to me. the story is centred around the anti hindi agitation that I too was a part.

It is with some poignancy that I realize that had I remained in india, my grandchildren would be reading my life experiences, as part of their history course.

It was in this context that I was projecting us 25 years from today, and how we would be viewed by historians as a whole. I am not so sure that scholars from our own community would be objective enough to provide a balanced view of our contribution. Barring very few, most of us are still in either the self justification mode or completely ‘they done us wrong’ agony.

I could see a Christian tamil historian looking at us with sympathy, yet with a critical eye. Hopefully he/she would not bereft us of our positives, but would approach our warts gently, and perhaps conclude that for ‘that day and age’ the tambrams were no worse than others. But also, no better. They were just like any other tamil tribe.

To me THAT would be a good enough acceptance of us as part of tamil lore and culture.

Thank you.
 
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Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

I have not said that Jews are 'superior'. In the reference blog I posted above, giving the Russian Nobel winners statistics/names, the author states that the Jews excel at science and academics because of the way their culture emphasizes the value of education. That's what I meant. Winning the Nobel in numbers bigger than their population size tells me that the Jews excel in the academic fields.

Your confusion about my statement is warranted. After re-reading that sentence I myself am confused!:) What I meant was, give all the assistance to the disadvantaged kids financially and otherwise (coaching etc.) when they are at the secondary school / high school. And then let them compete at the college level and beyond.

Yes, I am still against any quota system (or 'positive discrimination' as the authors of the research paper put it).

Regards,
KRS
Dear Shri KRS,

My point was that Nobel Prize win may not be the yardstick to gauge the superiority of any particular group. And now, I have a fresh doubt—kindly excuse me for that. The sentence in blue-bold looks to me to be contradictory to your views on reservations; there you say that it is enough to open up the facilities for education for the disadvantaged sections, and job/admissions reservation is inequitable, whereas here the import seems to be that all facilities to let them succeed —which will mean admissions to the highly competitive and in-short-supply seats/jobs in their case. Or, am I getting confused?
 
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Sri Kunjuppu

I was always aware that EVR's indignation made him take his stance. For that matter Hitler also took his stance from his indignation for "upatriotic" Jews. But the stance is not justified, still. Or do you think such hate is somewhat justified? This is what I explained in saying a negative sentiment can be raised against most upper class or upper caste communities by stirring the emotions of others. But IMO its not the position of leaders of progressive societies, to act that way according to me, and I can't see why people go to lengths to support such a pov, as we can see in this forum itself.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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I give extracts from the book. “Politics and Social Conflict in South India (The Non-Brahman Movement and Tamil Separatism, 1916-1929)”: Sponsored by the Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies, University of California, Berkeley. Page numbers furnished refer to this publication.In order to shorten the posts, I am condensing some portions; these condensed portions are in italics. My own comments are given in blue.

“Increasingly after 1925, the Justice Party came to be more and more on the defensive — always aware that it was losing the initiative of articulating non-Brahminism and that the new leaders were the Tamil non-Brahmans who had been trained in the arts of political agitation while in the ranks of Congress.” p. 264


(It thus becomes clear that the anti-Brahman sentiment started raising its head long before EVR came to the Justice Party, which he later converted to DK. In 1925 EVR in Congress, solidly siding with Rajaji.—sangom)

Communalism and Congress


Gandhiji who had successfully mobilized the uneducated masses and made them politically aware of the need for independence from the British rule, had, as a consequence, made the Home Rule League of Annie Besant irrelevant to India. However, the fact that many Brahmans in Madras had been associating with Besant either in the Home Rule League or in the Theosophical Society, had made the Home Rule League a suspect in the eyes of the Tamil non-Brahmans. Theosophical literature upheld the caste system and placed Brahmans, as the most spiritually evolved souls, at the apex of the social ladder, only added to this distrust.


Khadar (khadi) was a very important ingredient of Gandhiji’s struggle for independence, non-cooperation being the other, during the period 1925 and around. The response to khadi in the then Madras Presidency was not successful because the people in general were not enthusiastic about spinning. S. srinivasa Iyengar stated at a Congress meeting in Madras in June, 1924:
“Mahatmaji’s lesson was perfectly simple but the truth was that everybody did not use the charka and spin. when people did not do it, what was the use of again and again saying ‘Spin, Spin.’ ”

“Gandhi was released from prison in early 1924 because of ill-health. One of his first public utterances was a demand that all members of the A.I.C.C, should be committed noncooperators eligible for office only on the basis of tha amount that they spun. The crisis began to deepen. The
Hindu (June 20, 1924) condemned the move in a long editorial entitled “The Mahatma’s Ultimatum,” which questioned the capacity of anyone, at that particular time, to move into the Indian political scene and to dismiss the activity of the Swaraj Party and the notion of Council entry. “The Swarajists are there and too substantially there,” it wrote, “to be cursed or elbowed out of existence merely because they offend the no-changers’ sense of proprieties.” The only question, therefore, was “whether this kind of cleansing contemplated by the Mahatmaji is politically wise or — a belittling mundane word—expedient. In other words could the purging of the Congress—for the Congress executives are to a large extent synonymous with the Congress—leave in it sufficient prestige to continue to command the respect in which it is now held.” pp. 265-266

[FONT=&quot](The Swaraj Party was formed by Indian politicians and members of the Indian National Congress who had opposed Mahatma Gandhi's suspension of all civil resistance in 1922—months after it was started at the initiative of Gandhi— in response to the Chauri Chaura tragedy, where policemen were killed by a mob of protestors. He went on a fast-unto-death to convince all Indians to stop civil resistance. The Congress and other nationalist groups disavowed all activities of disobedience.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But many Indians including Congress leaders felt that the Non-Cooperation Movement should not have been suspended over an isolated incident of violence, and that its astonishing success was actually close to breaking the back of British rule in India. These people became disillusioned with Gandhi's political judgments and instincts.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gandhi and most of the Congress party rejected the provincial and central legislative councils created by the British to offer some participation for Indians. They argued that the councils were rigged with un-elected allies of the British, and too un-democratic and simply "rubber stamps" of the Viceroy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In December 1922, Chittaranjan Das, N.C. Kelkar and Motilal Nehru formed the Congress-Khilafat Swarajaya Party with Das as the president and Nehru as one of the secretaries. Other prominent leaders included Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy and Subhas Chandra Bose of Bengal, Vithalbhai Patel and other Congress leaders who were becoming dissatisfied with the Congress. The other group was the 'No-Changers', who had accepted Gandhi's decision to withdraw the non-cooperation movement.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Both the Swarajists and the No-Changers were engaged in a fierce political struggle, but both were determined to avoid the disastrous experience of the 1907 split at Surat. (The Congress session became violent because of the extreme enmity between the extremists and moderates and had to function as “convention” instead of the original name of Congress.) On the advice of Gandhi, the two groups decided to remain in the Congress but to work in their separate ways. There was no basic difference between the two.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Swarajist members were elected to the councils. Vithalbhai Patel became the president of the Central Legislative Assembly. However, the legislatures had very limited powers, and apart from some heated parliamentary debates, and procedural stand-offs with the British authorities, the core mission of obstructing British rule failed.—extracted from Wikipedia.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“By November, Gandhi, realizing that what the Hindu called his “ritualistic intolerance” was inappropriate to the changed circumstances of the India of 1924, had backed down. … And at the 1924 Belgaum Congress the following month, at which he presided, he explained that he had entered into an agreement with the Swarajists because he recognized the value of the Councils for the attainment of Swaraj.109 ”p.266[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](With the death of Chittaranjan Das in 1925, and with Motilal Nehru's return to the Congress the following year, the Swaraj party was greatly weakened.—sangom)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Gandhi’s vacillations on the question of Council boycott were awkward for the No-Changers in the Tamil Nad Congress, men like Rajagopalachariar and three former members of the M.P.A., (Madras Provincial Association) Tiru. Vi. Kaliyanasundaram Mudaliar, E.V. Ramaswami Naicker, and P. Varadarajulu Naidu.” p. 266 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](It will be seen that even when the Justice Party with its avowed anti-Brahman stance was at its zenith, EVR was solidly behind the Rajai faction in the Congress—sangom.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]All the while there remained the same difficulty in the No-changer ranks (within the Congress—sangom) that had originally provoked Dr. Nair and Tyagaraja Chetti to peotest the Home Rule movement and Congress in 1916—namely, the resentment felt by many non-Brahmans toward what they considered excessive Brahman power within the Congress organization. Non-Brahman hostility toward Brahmans within the Tamil Nad Congress remained, despite the dissolution of the M.P.A. in mid-1920. How strong the hostility had become was only too apparent, first at a meeting of the Madras Provincial Congress Committee at Tinnevelly on June 24, 1920. At that meeting V.O. Chidambaram Pillai, a Tamil Vellala who was well known for his swadeshi activities earlier in the century, submitted a resolution proposing that Congress should adopt as a central axiom the need to obtain proportional representation for non-Brahmans in the public services and representative bodies of the presidency.112 The resolution was in fact adopted, but only after it had been hedged about with a number of qualifications and after many reservations had been voiced as to its relevance. Shortly after this meeting a letter to the Madras Mail (June 30, 1920) from a reader who called himself a “non-Brahmin delegate” complained of the ways in which the resolution had been handled by Brahmans at the conference: “The ‘Nationalist’ Brahmin may deem it devilishly clever of him to have postponed ‘the evil day’ when he will have to find his level in politics (as in everything else). but he is too clever by half. Keen and plastic as his intellect is, he is as foolish as an ostrich in some matters. the demoralization of Indian politics is only a matter of time. If it has not come this year it will come the next year or the next.” p.267[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](It will be evident from the above that strong anti-Brahman sentiment had been existing in TN even much before EVR left the Congress or his Brahman friends therein. Hence it cannot be said that EVR or DK originated the anti-Brahman sentiment.—sangom)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]109[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The story of these negotiations and their outcome is succinctly set out in B. R. Nanda, Mahatma Gandhi : A Biography (London, 1959), pp. 251-255[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]112[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Madras Mail, June 26, 1920.

[/FONT]To be continued…
 
The ‘Nationalist’ Brahmin may deem it devilishly clever of him to have postponed ‘the evil day’ when he will have to find his level in politics (as in everything else). but he is too clever by half. Keen and plastic as his intellect is, he is as foolish as an ostrich in some matters. the demoralization of Indian politics is only a matter of time. If it has not come this year it will come the next year or the next.”

so perspective!! this man in 1925 could predict our downfall .. even though it happened in 1967, it was only a matter of time.

thanks sangom. a very good teaching lesson for the likes of many here...
 
Sri Sangom

"Lastly, I would draw your attention to a real case of one BC (Sree Narayana Guru's caste) who will belong to my generation - but is much younger, because of the large number of elder siblings, who has in just his lifetime, risen up from the untouchable farm-worker status of his father (a small thatched hut in "puramboke" land) to a brain surgeon of some repute, in my native place. I have written about it elsewhere - during your absence - but am not able to trace it out. I therefore hold that any talk of gene superiority will be unsubstantiated unless incontrovertible scientific proof is adduced. "

I am here saying brahmin culture was responsible in the influential role brahmins were able to play and the position they came to, not any genetics in particular. Having said that, I am still waiting for you to agree that DK was wrong in presenting a partial version of TBs in history or only calling casteism as part of our culture - going to label it "brahminism". Clearly brahmin culture was much more than that and had its positive side too.

If I tell anything here against you, it is considered disrespect. But your own post speaking of "abracadabra" was disrespectful to me, when you spoke of my community.

With due respect, Edtd - KRS you not being able to say DK's rhetoric and policy on brahmins was wrong. Instead you seem to be giving excuses to justify the policy even when casteism still exists in rural TN. KRS's statement (which I quoted in #141) was absolutely true too:

"As I have said before, I oppose quotas of any kind favoring any 'injured' party in the past. Fundamentally this 'injures' the present generation for the perceived 'blanket' sins of their forefathers. Helping an injured party is one thing, but doing so by injuring another party is another"

Also with respect again, I strongly feel that this issue of fighting casteism and this criminal/negative image of our community in the minds of tamilians (TBs or NBs) was your generations' duty which you failed to do.

Regards,
Vivek.

To the Super Moderator,

Kindly refer to the portion in bold and blue above (emphasis done by me) and let me know whether this forum considers any one as morally bankrupt if he/she believes that DK/EVR/DMK or for that matter anyone else like the erstwhile Justice Party holding anti-Brahman views and sentiments, cannot be faulted with, without taking into consideration the reactions and attitudes of the Tamil Brahman leadership and the community as a whole which gave rise to such an intense hatred, if this issue is viewed impartially and without considering his/her position as a born Tamil Brahman.

Dear Sri Sangom Ji, I am leaving the offensive words in this post, in your response, for clarity. I have edited out them in all posts including the post Sri Vivek Ji originally posted

Dear Vivek Ji,

Just yesterday, I posted some moderating words to you about being not disrespectful. Yet you call Sri Sangom Ji this, which is clearly a personal attack against him. You have probably done this because you are upset with him. Getting upset is fine, but this Forum is not a place to play out your anger against anyone. Since I have been giving enough warnings already, next time you get in to anything personal against any of the members, will be the last time you will be doing it in this Forum. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS
 
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