A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

[prasad1]

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I absolutely agree with you..Having more children is possible only if the rich raise above the mundane and think about the community...Would be more suitable in case girl is a house wife or ready to compromise her official work for child bearing activities which disturbs her schedule by at least a year ( 3 months during pregnancy & 6 to 9 months for child rearing)

As far as opening the purse strings are concerned it is desirable but who is interested in helping a poor fellow Brahmin...We need to have a paradigm shift in philanthropy! It should start with us first!!

A simple question, why should I do that? What is in it for me?
A agree with the philanthropy part of it, but why only for Brahmins?

 

[tks]

hi

many brahmin familes had 13 or 14 children some decades ago...it was hard life....many families suffered dur to lot of children....

in a village agraharam.....olden days NO TV/INTERNET....so ONLY this was the entertainment....with a big joint family many

kids lived together.....even without much privacy in villages/agraharam...many had more than 10 children...BUT NOW...

IN AN APARTMENT ...LOT OF PRIVACY...STILL ONE OR TWO KIDS....

Sri tbs, I beg to differ. Please allow me to be candid in my response and it is not directed against you!

It is fashionable in affluent societies to think that the population growth in places like India and Africa for example is because people there have/had no other 'entertainment'. This idea seems to have sufficient plausibility for many to accept as fact.

However it is not borne out by facts. Population rise is inversely correlated to child mortality rates. When there is fear of survival of children born or that of the life of a mother, population explosion has been a very natural reaction. That is why the action plan by agencies involved in controlling population growth aim at decreasing the number of children that die as infants. This is counter-intuitive. There are many research articles about this subject. See the following for one example.

http://www.unicef.org/about/history/files/sourcebook_children_1990s_part2.pdf

During the time frame of living of our ancestors, survival of both child and mother was a big deal during every pregnancy. At least the fear existed always. That is why a pregnant woman's desires are always attempted to be fulfilled. The number of children in every family also tended to be high.

Today with progress in how pregnancy is cared for in relatively affluent societies, the child birth rates have fallen dramatically.

The second reason is that in our family and I suspect in most TB families, children born are always equated to wealth and blessings of Goddess Lakshmi. This attitude does not seem to exist anymore.

India is poised for being a super power because of its young population. The Germans accepted a large number of Syrian refugees not because of greatness of heart but to lower their average age needed to deal with the future. The German society have not produced sufficient youngsters.

It is only in the modern culture of leisure which promotes perverted activities and movies as entertainment we have wrong views of culture of yester years.

When people have to work hard with natural systems for a living the character ethics tended to be very high. Today, people work with artificial systems and the character strengths of most societies has fallen.

I think our ancestors led a simpler life and did not seek entertainment per se like the way people do today. They also did not produce babies for entertainment.

 

[tks]

Dear TKS Sir,

I could get your point correct. But, now that educating a child is so expensive, even the upper middle class worry to have

more than one. In the earlier generations, some moms used to bear a child when her first daughter is on the family way!

Wonder how they managed??

Dear Smt RR,

Babies being thought of as being expensive is a modern day phenomena.

Mothers had significant role in true education like character at home.

I went to a very ordinary middle class school in Delhi. Today, almost all have achieved tremendous success in their chosen field. It had to do in part with the values taught at home.

There are all kinds of fears in affluent societies. One of my wife's nephew earns over a million dollars a year (Investment banking). They live in a mansion in Europe and are under constant pressure and fear. They are terrified that their 4 year old will not pass some stupid interview and not get into some top pre-school! The fear is sad and laughable at the same time.

I do agree that in modern living two incomes are needed and mother's role to teach kids at home has diminished. The schools and colleges do not teach anything useful and applicable.

But these issues can be overcome if people begin to view children as gift. If Mothers could play a more traditional role to teach the young children many of the woes of the society can be overcome.

In our case my wife chose on her own to stay home until both my children were in full time school. During the formative years, her effort and contribution to their growth as self confident kids is immeasurable.

I think there is endless fear about cost and future these days.

 

[yesmohan]

Dear TKS Sir,

I could get your point correct. But, now that educating a child is so expensive, even the upper middle class worry to have

more than one. In the earlier generations, some moms used to bear a child when her first daughter is on the family way! Wonder how they managed??

It had been the way life;Perhaps it might be lack of awareness and education ?

Three children of my eldest sister and one sibling of the next sister, are older than me.

My first son is just one year younger than my last B /L (youngest brother of my wife)
Early marriage was also one of the reasons.

 

[renuka]

They also did not produce babies for entertainment.

Lack of contraception = more babies.

 

[krish44]

Dear Smt RR,

Babies being thought of as being expensive is a modern day phenomena.

Mothers had significant role in true education like character at home.

I went to a very ordinary middle class school in Delhi. Today, almost all have achieved tremendous success in their chosen field. It had to do in part with the values taught at home.

There are all kinds of fears in affluent societies. One of my wife's nephew earns over a million dollars a year (Investment banking). They live in a mansion in Europe and are under constant pressure and fear. They are terrified that their 4 year old will not pass some stupid interview and not get into some top pre-school! The fear is sad and laughable at the same time.

I do agree that in modern living two incomes are needed and mother's role to teach kids at home has diminished. The schools and colleges do not teach anything useful and applicable.

But these issues can be overcome if people begin to view children as gift. If Mothers could play a more traditional role to teach the young children many of the woes of the society can be overcome.

In our case my wife chose on her own to stay home until both my children were in full time school. During the formative years, her effort and contribution to their growth as self confident kids is immeasurable.

I think there is endless fear about cost and future these days.

Some are nostalgic about the past.

In the past, women were an exploited lot.

Even if they were educated, there were forced to stay home claiming husband and children need them more and they should not be economic entities.

Some were permitted [ It was not an voluntary option exercised by women,More of a grudging concession by husbands} and got confined to teaching in schools or

working in library etc]. They were brain washed that they belong to the kitchen.

Children were religeously indoctrinated at home and dumped into schools run by their community brethren into a prison of sorts that forced them to excel only

academically to become job earners for greedy parents in their old age.

Of course their children went abroad and collected big dollars but because of their so called given values at young age they are expected not to stray -whatever it

might mean and not enjoy the liberal values of a freer society.

This is brahmin male mentality which discriminates against both women and children.

 

[tbs]

When there is more privacy couples understand life and its trials and tribulations hence less kids...so the relationship is more at an intellectual level and there is no one to disturb their nights of intellectual Sangamam...so it is Hum Do Hamara Ek Ya Hum Do Hamare Do!

But when there was no privacy in the past.. ..living in joint families ..couples did not have time to know each other and were fearful in case some child or anyone else would disturb them at nite hence it was more of a Wham Bam Vanakam Maam scenario and everyone kept getting pregnant again and again...Punarapi Jananam becos of Punarapi Shayanam!LOL

hi

punarapi sayanam.....punarapi jananam....may be correct....

 

[krish44]

A simple question, why should I do that? What is in it for me?
A agree with the philanthropy part of it, but why only for Brahmins?

Is the brahmin community as it functions today worth supporting -what is there in it for affluent brahmins. The affluent are nailed to the brahmin cross and not many

would like to bleed or shed tears [IF someone does , they might resemble a crocodile] for the steady downhill move of the community.

A very valid question . Why charity for brahmins alone? all humans worse economically desreve the same support. There can be no discrimination in charity

 

[yesmohan]

In those days, when large family existed, usually a grand mother, widowed aunt will be there to take the overall control of the administration (which nobody questioned) and any crisis in the family will be ably managed. The household works will go on with every member chipping in to attend some work, even though there existed no work allocation. The girl children, even in the young age, took lessons from the grandmother/aunt and they were almost proxy mother to the younger siblings. Sense of sacrifice existed to the larger interests of the common family.

Nowadays, with one or two children, the sense of sacrifice no longer exists and the present young generation are not prepared for any compromise even in trivial matters - that triggers more and more of broken marriages in our society. Probably, two or three children in every family is the ideal situation with the siblings experience what is love, what is responsibility, what is sacrifice and better understanding of others in the society - above all, less number of broken marriages !

Yes; the bond of affection and love were given more importance in the erstwhile family system. Not this much of importance, was given to "Money" as is given now a days; More importance and priority were given for human relations and human values.Patience and forbearance were the automatically acquired skills out of the environment of the families.

Now the young kids are in possession of rich knowledge updated in general awareness of the latest affairs. They are capable of outwitting their counter parts of the developed countries.

Now, young parents are economically better placed; priorities and preferences change with evolution world.
Changes are beyond the control of man and inevitable & essential to sustain in the competitive world.

Old and traditional way of life, has its own merits and demerits. One thing is to be accepted that we have to compromise certain things to to acquire some other things new.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

This is the latest story about my Iyengar friend about whom I have written earlier - His D in L is an iyer She and her Husband are in US Computer Engineers studied in the same college My friend insisted that the Grand Son should be named only Prahalad imagining that the boy will be saying Narayana 24 X 7 - staunch vaishnava! & away from Smartha influenze! He was named so though the parents were uncomfortable with an asurans name! The parents were keen on naming the child as Sankara Naryanan But my frient would not compramise!

Recently they were in Bangalore on 3 weeks holiday and this man wanted them to undergo Samasrayanam and they were branded with hot Sangu and Chakram on their shoulders! After that ritual she devleoped a huge ugly Keloidal scar! It is Highly itchy and Painful also! Poor Girl She is back in US and is undergoing treatment!

What happened to the Smartha purity here? It is nothing but conversion within the castes of different customs and conventions. The girl, despite reasonably well qualified, has no guts to stay in her caste.

Generally the girls have no say, as ours is a paternal society, especially in the case of Hindus.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Yes.
Ours is a paternal society to some extend.

But now people follow which ever is advantageous.

In my street one vaishnavite girl working in software, has married a SC boy working in the same company; They have two kids (both boys)

Elder boy has been admitted in school; caste declaration given there is SC; of course it would be advantageous for her son, in future.

Please read Posts No.118 & 119. When an Iyer girl, after marriage follows Iyengar customs, including Samasrayanam, what is wrong in a Vaishnavite girl (I presume a Brahmin) becomes an SC or at least allows her to become an SC. Let us appreciate the SC father.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Please read Posts No.118 & 119. When an Iyer girl, after marriage follows Iyengar customs, including Samasrayanam, what is wrong in a Vaishnavite girl (I presume a Brahmin) becomes an SC or at least allows her to become an SC. Let us appreciate the SC father.

I think there is a SC guideline in such situation am not sure . The spouse (Here the Vaishnava Girl) cannot opt for SC status But the children have the choice they can chose either of the parents social status Obvious their choice will be to their advantage!!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Chandruji

Do you know there are on an average 6 iyer girls to every 1 iyengar girl -similarly educated and employed?

The population of eligible girls multiplies six times if one extends it to include iyer families for a prospective bride.

Most of these girls can be persuaded to opt for iyengar boys. They might adopt iyengar customs , language, cuisine and dress [madisar for occassions].

The language is a little difficult sometimes for them to readily get used to.

One can have vaikunta prapthi instead of kailasa or sivaloka prapthi. Only a minor change in obituary notices.

So if you are an iyengar boy, opt for iyer girls if iyengar girls play hard to get. Who knows they might accept you .

Girls parents may also accept as other communities could be worse.

Most have nightmares about smarter NB boys in their neighbourhood in south like we have about punjabi mundas in delhi chasing tamil brahmin girls in delhi

You have socialistic view.

Let us think this way. The Parsi community, which is very well educated and prosperous, is dwindling. The total population is less than 1 lakh. Will you advocate and advise poor Iyengar girls to enter Parsi community thru marriage, which will definitely enhance the economic status? The expected only change is instead of Narayaya the girl has to worship Fire. Is it difficult? Fire is also part of Hindu custom.

 

[krish44]

Chandruji

Iyers share a lot with iyengar and come very close to iyengar lifestyle.

Always prefer someone almost like us if not totally that.

Iyer -iyengars can easily blend and evolve an acceptable arrangement for living.



I am unable to talk about parsis. But syrian christians from kerala and konkan christians from goa also fit well. They were brahmins once who got converted.

So all is not lost for brahmin iyengars. One can absorb these into vaishnavite families. I am talking on basis of personal experience.

 

[renuka]

hi

punarapi sayanam.....punarapi jananam....may be correct....

LOL!

That is what I meant..Punarapi Jananam is becos of Punarapi Shayanam!

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

What happened to the Smartha purity here? It is nothing but conversion within the castes of different customs and conventions. The girl, despite reasonably well qualified, has no guts to stay in her caste.

Generally the girls have no say, as ours is a paternal society, especially in the case of Hindus.

No problem either with boy or the Girl Even their parents are very nice people! The problem is their (Parents) ஜம்பம் Intially the Iyer "ஜமபம." was against the wedding! I went to Kalakkad with my Iyegar friend to persuade him to agree for this alliance - He was nice but not ready to accept the proposal saying he has 2 more daughters to be settled and was presurising the girl to walk out ! They could have married in any Registrar office but both Boy and Girl were not for wedding without the blessing of the father - They had to wait for about 2 years! But After Nitchiyadhartham Iynegar ஜம்பம் comes into play Once the பிள்ளை வீட்டு வாத்யார் takes charge it is only ஐயங்கார் சம்பரதாயம் and no compramise You see that in the naming of the child and the ritual resulting in an ugly painful Keloid - I saw him last week and he was really sorry and with all concern and sincerity said சும்மா இருந்த சங்க ஊதிகெடுத்த கதை ஆயிடுத்து - ஐயர் ஐயங்கார் culture is needle gone and nauseating - Try அவியல் culture - It is the best recipe for TB to sustain their existance! This is for those intolerant - who stick to their exculsive club to ponder!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

No problem either with boy or the Girl Even their parents are very nice people! The problem is their (Parents) ஜம்பம் Intially the Iyer "ஜமபம." was against the wedding! I went to Kalakkad with my Iyegar friend to persuade him to agree for this alliance - He was nice but not ready to accept the proposal saying he has 2 more daughters to be settled and was presurising the girl to walk out ! They could have married in any Registrar office but both Boy and Girl were not for wedding without the blessing of the father - They had to wait for about 2 years! But After Nitchiyadhartham Iynegar ஜம்பம் comes into play Once the பிள்ளை வீட்டு வாத்யார் takes charge it is only ஐயங்கார் சம்பரதாயம் and no compramise You see that in the naming of the child and the ritual resulting in an ugly painful Keloid - I saw him last week and he was really sorry and with all concern and sincerity said சும்மா இருந்த சங்க ஊதிகெடுத்த கதை ஆயிடுத்து - ஐயர் ஐயங்கார் culture is needle gone and nauseating - Try அவியல் culture - It is the best recipe for TB to sustain their existance! This is for those intolerant - who stick to their exculsive club to ponder!

It is not clear. Whose parents are nice and whose are not?

When your customs and conventions are not in consonance with other castes, it is quite natural of heart burning, whether B & B marriage or IC/IR marriage. Iyer & Iyengar is no exception - especially Iyer girl and Iyengar boy. Such proposals should not be encouraged.

If it is 'ARIVIYAL CULTURE', where is the question of caste? It is gone.

What is your comment on Post No.139? Will you accept there is not much difference between Iyers and Iyengars?

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Chandruji

Iyers share a lot with iyengar and come very close to iyengar lifestyle.

Always prefer someone almost like us if not totally that.

Iyer -iyengars can easily blend and evolve an acceptable arrangement for living.



I am unable to talk about parsis. But syrian christians from kerala and konkan christians from goa also fit well. They were brahmins once who got converted.

So all is not lost for brahmin iyengars. One can absorb these into vaishnavite families. I am talking on basis of personal experience.

Sir,

Post Number 142 will clarify your imagination.

 

[prasad1]

My friend Raghavendra Chari is married to Lakshmi Chari, they have a son named Adam Chari (adam is the given name and evem his upanayanam he used that name). He married a Caucasian girl Angela, and the marriage was a hindu wedding performed by a smartha priest. They have a son named Aaron (Arun) Chari.
Nov Arun Chari is getting his upanayanam. The new priest is a vaisnava sampradayam, he had difficulty with the whole process and was lamenting the loss of culture. The option for the priest is to swallow his indignation or loose the money, guess which one he chose.
The upnayam is scheduled for this Sunday. There is a price for everything.

The story is true but the names have been altered for the sake of privacy.

 

[yesmohan]

ஐயர் - ஐயங்கார் அவியல் ?
அவியல் also needle gone!!

Now, young girls are trying with the new recipe - mixture!!

IC / IR mixture !!

 

[rishikesan]

Current trend of marriages of Tamil Brahmin marriages

We in this forum would have had seen/experienced marriages of Different religions/different castes / inter caste marriages between BrahMins of both sects, Iyer/Iyngars, including marriages held in U.S or India ( the couple. /Tamil Brahmin Girl/Boy Marrying foreighners ----all taking place in the last 20 years. We Tamil Brahmin families change their colour when they are faced with inter caste or inter religious marriages.,though may not like -,---cover-up everything ,saying that our Mappillai is a Gem & we cannot get a boy of that quality ?
It only shows that the trend is already Set & one may get cases to prove .
All of us do knot it I not stop able.

The same trend goes on & On and becomes a Norm ?

Rishikesan( A.Srinivasan)

e

 

[Vaagmi]

My friend Raghavendra Chari is married to Lakshmi Chari, they have a son named Adam Chari (adam is the given name and evem his upanayanam he used that name). He married a Caucasian girl Angela, and the marriage was a hindu wedding performed by a smartha priest. They have a son named Aaron (Arun) Chari.
Nov Arun Chari is getting his upanayanam. The new priest is a vaisnava sampradayam, he had difficulty with the whole process and was lamenting the loss of culture. The option for the priest is to swallow his indignation or loose the money, guess which one he chose.
The upnayam is scheduled for this Sunday. There is a price for everything.

The store is true but the names have been altered for the sake of privacy.

In the seventies a four figure salary was a rarity.
And people used to declare with pride that they were getting it.
The price of one banana was just 25 paise in India.

Today a beginner in the IT industry gets a six figure salary.
And there are many people who get more than that.
Today in India millionaires are dime a dozen.
In my local fruit market a banana costs Rs.5/-.

The local purohit who used to come to my house to help my Dad with his Amavasya Tarpanam etc., used to be paid Rs. 10/- those days for a ten minutes job.

Today inspite of allround prosperity our purohit is paid just a 50/- or 100/- by many a grihasta for a similar task.

We have brutalized these purohits imagining that the cost of living index, by some magic, has stoped its effect on them.

We have no right to make fun of them saying they have a price and that we can buy them. If we say that that will be arrogance.

Poor fellows. these pathetic men have long back forgotten to get angry with the liberties that the grihastas take with discipline.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

My friend Raghavendra Chari is married to Lakshmi Chari, they have a son named Adam Chari (adam is the given name and evem his upanayanam he used that name). He married a Caucasian girl Angela, and the marriage was a hindu wedding performed by a smartha priest. They have a son named Aaron (Arun) Chari.
Nov Arun Chari is getting his upanayanam. The new priest is a vaisnava sampradayam, he had difficulty with the whole process and was lamenting the loss of culture. The option for the priest is to swallow his indignation or loose the money, guess which one he chose.
The upnayam is scheduled for this Sunday. There is a price for everything.

The store is true but the names have been altered for the sake of privacy.

What is the problem the vaishnava priest facing? Has he been asked to perform Upanayanam as per Caucasian custom?When the boy in question, it seems, is following B customs, possibly vaishnava, the responsibility falls on the boy's father to furnish family details, and the priest can perform the Upanayanam.

 

[tks]

Some are nostalgic about the past.

In the past, women were an exploited lot.

Even if they were educated, there were forced to stay home claiming husband and children need them more and they should not be economic entities.

Some were permitted [ It was not an voluntary option exercised by women,More of a grudging concession by husbands} and got confined to teaching in schools or

working in library etc]. They were brain washed that they belong to the kitchen.

Children were religeously indoctrinated at home and dumped into schools run by their community brethren into a prison of sorts that forced them to excel only

academically to become job earners for greedy parents in their old age.

Of course their children went abroad and collected big dollars but because of their so called given values at young age they are expected not to stray -whatever it

might mean and not enjoy the liberal values of a freer society.

This is brahmin male mentality which discriminates against both women and children.

Exploitation of women by men (and in some instances the opposite as well) is not unique to any one community or any one time period in history.

Men and women of TB culture are no different than any other people. Such exploitation happens even in gay couples now that such things are discussed more openly.

I have knowns enormous number of marriages where the roles are distinct but respect to each other at the most basic level is high for each other's roles.

Life is happier when true 'interdependence' exist between the members of a community or even among husband and wife.

Often people mistake interdependence with co-dependence which is a disease born out of extreme insecurity.

Stable societies in all cultures have existed when there is mutual respect. Many of our TB couples, regardless of age, have been exemplary in this regard even now.

I suppose, we all the see the world the way we are ...

 

[Raji Ram]

I totally agree with T K S Sir! We ask the newly wedded couple, 'Chidambaramaa, Maduraiyaa??'

If one of the couple dominates, the other will grin and bear it and less noise in that sweet home!
If both have equal ego, we can see :fencing: and hear :rant: !!