After Death - What?

[CLN]

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We had fulfledged systems like Shilpa Shaasthra, Naatya Shaasthra, Sangeetha Shaasthra, Vaana Shasthra, Yoga Shashaasthra, Vaasthu Shaasthra and even Yudhdha Shasthra which were based on science, logic and reason, which was not available in the western religions.

In Sanaathana Dharma, though there were six school of knowledge viz. Artha, Vyaakarana, Nyaaya, Vaisheshika, Poorvameemaamsa, and Uththarameemaamsa, and six sects viz. Shaiva, Vaishnava, Shaaktha, Ganapathya, Kaumara, and Kaalaamukha and there were many heated discussions by the men belonging to each school to justify their school of thought, there was not war or Killing.

Dear Mr. Subramaniam,

I do not see how you list various shastras and schools of knowledge of this ancient land to be part of sanaatana dharma or any 'dharma' for that matter. Only those 'sects' which you have cited can come under the classification of any religious school of thought, which of course, true to the very nature of religions, gave raise to 'heated discussions', just as you yourself have mentioned. I have pointed out in my post #96 why such things tend to happen in religion-related issues only. If these 'heated discussions' did not lead to wars and killings, it was only because the kings in our country did not normally declare any of those sects as the 'state religion' and wage wars with other kings on that count. Even so, when a king embraced any particular sect / religion, he did persecute the followers of a rival sect / religion. A case in point is that of Mahendra Varma Pallavan, who, while he adopted Jainism, persecuted Thirunaavukkarasar after he returned to Saivism to no end, until he, the king himself, was converted to Saivism by the Tamil saint. There have been reports of Jainist and Buddhist monks put to torture and death in Madurai, in the eighth century, if I am not mistaken - by whom do you think? Even if killings did not take place always, indifference, denial of recognition and outright persecution have happened time and again even in this very land of Sanaatana Dharma, when a minority sect tried to practise their faith in the kingdoms of a majority sect of a different nature. The constant tug-of-war between 'Veera Saivas' and 'Veera Vaishnavas' made life miserable for both.

So, once again, I emphasize that these things, happen in the name of religion, because of the very nature of religion - let it be any religion for that matter - is based only on 'Faith', not on 'Reason'. 'Reason' can acknowledge and tolerate, though not accept, a different point of view, whereas 'Religion' is 'intolerant' of any thing different. 'Faith' can flourish and survive only on 'unquestioning' acceptance and there lies the problem.

 

[sangom]

That blind belief or faith obstructs reason at some time or other, is best illustrated by the famous words (usually misquoted) of Albert Einstein on quantum theory:

Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice.

• Letter to Max Born (4 December 1926); The Born-Einstein Letters (translated by Irene Born) (Walker and Company, New York, 1971) ISBN 0-8027-0326-7. This quote is commonly paraphrased "God does not play dice" or "God does not play dice with the universe", and other slight variants.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri. Nara,

Apologies.

Best Regards,

B.Subramanian.

 

[suba42]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Shri. Sangom,
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pranaam.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though you had stated the words of Mr.Albert Eisnstein, but he himself has given Bose-Einstein Statistics, and a statistical study fully involves ifs and thens.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hence he is purported to have accepted the theory God plays Dice with His creations. Hence where is the Truth?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Best Regards,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B.Subramanian.[/FONT]

 

[suba42]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Shri. Sangom,
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Pranaam.

The fact that Quantum Stistics which led to Quantum Mechanics, which led to Quantum Electrodynamics, which led to Quantum Chromodynamics (study of Quarks), itself proves that 'the ifs and thens' are part of the Study of this Universe.

Best Regards,

B.Subramanian,
[/FONT]

 

[suba42]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Shri.CLN,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a humble request to address me as Shri. Subramanian, I do not like this Mr., which is purely western.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, humbly am not able to understand the purported connection you have coined between the State (the Ruler) and the people. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the ruler is benevolent to every one in the state, the people will be happy and bring out the best of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hence positive developments in so many Shaasthraas viz. Shilpa Shaasthra, Vimaana Shaasthra, Naatya Shaasthra, Sangeetha Shaasthra, Yoga Shaasthra, Vaasthu Shasthra, Jyothisha Shaasthra, Vaidhya Shassthra, and Yudhdha Shaasthra, to name a few, have been achieved only because of a positive atmosphere created by the respective rulers, before the birth of other religions. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though we have seen the enormous developments for so many millennia by the people of several kingdoms in Bhaarath, it is to be clearly understood that the state viz. the Ruler was benevolent to all his people, irrespective of their faiths.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The rise of Atheistic Religions viz. Jainism and Buddhism have been from 5th Century BC. What was the result in the growth of the civilization till then?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even after the birth and growth of Atheistic religions viz. Jainism and Buddhism, the growth in technology, science and medicine were beyond compare, since the state ensured a congenial living atmosphere with external religions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Vaidhya Shaasthra, we hade Charaka, Shushruthaa and other medicos, who gave performed many difficult surgeries with Oral Anesthesia and Local Anesthesia, which very much prevalent then.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Jyothisha Shaasthra, many seers viz. Bhaaskara, Varaahamihiraa, Aaryabhataa were very highly developed in Jyothisha.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is a real life story of a sage who prophesized death to King Vikramaadhitya by a Pig, and the King took all the precautions and lived in the 5th storey of his palace duly guarded to prevent any entry of a Pig, but on the predicted date and time, he was found dead due to falling of a pig statue (which was part of a pillar) on him in 6th floor, and the name Varaahamihiraa stayed to that Sage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As you had stated an incident of Pallava King Mahendra Pallavan (father of Narasimha Pallavan – Maamallan – of Mamallaburam fame – Mahabalipuram caves near Chennai) who converted to Jainism at the behest of Thirunavukkarasar, but the sage Thirunaavukkarasar was brought back to Sanaathana Dharma by his sister Thilakavathi, and when King Mahendra called Thirunaavukkarasar to his Dharbaar, sage Thirunaavukkarasar did not go, because of which the Sage Thirunaavukkarasar was put in a Shunnaambu KaaLavaai, (Sodium Carbonate mine) {if I am not wrong}, when the Sage Thirunaavukkarasu sings the famous Hymn “ Naamaarkkum KudiyallOm, Namanai AnjOm, EmaappOm PiNiyaRiyOm IdaRpadOm” , which made the King Mahendra Pallavan to return back to Sanaathana Dharma.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]About the Madurai incident of torture and killing of Buddhists by a king, is not known of (if you could kindly give me the name of the king, the real truth can be found out). I do not have a time machine to go to the past and find the truth, but still the truth can be found out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This proves to say beyond doubt the Kingdoms in Bhaarath were very Congenial and only because of that attitude, the developments in all walks of life were beyond compare.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please read “The Wonder that was India” by Allen Basham of Canberra University. He says from Himalayaas to Kanyakumaari, the people did not know to tell lies, did not know to steal. All the house were only latched and not locked because there was no thief in any country. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here in Chola Naadu (I belong to Thiruvaanaikoil, Trichy) there were thousands of PaNdaka Shaalais (free food centres) and hundreds of Aadhoora Shalais (free medical centres) governed by the Kings, and with no fees, best food and best medical facility were available to all people of the state. (Please read “History of South India by R.S.Iyengaar).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This was only because of the basic root of perennial love taught by our Sanaathan Dharma.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Best Regards,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B.Subramanian.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri.CLN,

Mere difference of opinions between Veera Vaishnavaas and Veera Shaivaas were only on mouth levels on the basis of their respective religious beliefs and did not go down to hurting any Human Being.

Best Regards,

B.Subramanian.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri.CLN,

Mere difference of opinions between Veera Vaishnavaas and Veera Shaivaas were only on mouth levels on the basis of their respective religious beliefs and did not go down to hurting any Human Being.

Best Regards,

B.Subramanian.

BS,

if you read ponniyin selvan, this is not quite correct. ofcourse selvan is but a figment of imagination of kalki. but perhaps kalki knew sufficient of the animosities of that time.

it might also be remembered that this was pre islamic, pre xtian, era. whatever religious discourses, and fights was confined to bharat originated faiths. that might make us wishfully think, in these days of onslaughts from abrahamic faiths, that the various hindu sects of those times started the day by holding hands.

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,

I have read Ponniyin Selvan of Amarar Kalki several times, and there is no mention of attrocities perpetrated by people of any sect of Sanaathana Dharma on any other sect. Yes there is a mention of verbal duals between people of Shaiva and Vaishnava sect.

Amarar Kalki has quoted difference of opinions between Shaivas and Vaishnavas in a comical way, in the lighter vain. He says once one Veera Vaishnava man was passing under the Gopuram of Thiruvaanaikoil Akhilandeshwari temple, when a stone from the Gopuram falls down on him. On looking up the man sees a crow perched on the Gopuram, and the Veera Vaishnava man says, "Oh, Veera Vaishnava Kaakaaye, in the Shaiva Gopuraththai idiththu thallu", i.e unmindful of the stone falling on him, he is happy to see removing a stone a small part of the Shaiva Gopuram of Thiruvaanaikoil Temple, and he considers that crow as belonging to Vaishva sect and requests the crow to demolish the temple gopuram.

This goes to prove that there were a lot of difference of opinions between the Shaiva and Vaishnava sects, and though the Chola kings were Shaivas, and have built hundreds of Shiva temples, but it is also to be understood that the kings were equally considerate to Vaishnavaits in the kingdom.

The Chola Kingdom is the place of Hundreds of Shiva temples which were morethan 2000 years old, and almost all of them were 'Paadal petra sthalangals' i.e they have hymns sung by Shaiva Naayanmaars.

The classic example is Thirvaanaikoil temple, which was built in 5th Century BC, by the Chola King Sengannan.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

 

[suba42]

Dear Sirs,

With reference to the fight among the different sects of a religion, though our Sanaathana Dharma had a lot of verbal duals, but never resulted in killing of any person or persons belonging to any particular sect.

Compare this with Christianity, when Martin Luther and his cohorts slaughtered thousands of people to form the Protestant Lutheran church.

The fight between Shia and Sunni sects of Muslims is never ending and the Iran - Iraq war is a classic example, and murder of thousands of Khurds by Saddam Hussain is a classic example of intolerance in the western religions.

But though there were verbal duals between men belonging to various sects of Sanaathana Dharma, no harm was perpetrated by men of any particular sect on people of any other sect.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri.CLN,

Though the sage Thirunvukkarasar came out unscathed from Shunnambu KaaLavaai, the king Mahendra Varma Pallavan suffers from Soolai Noi (skin rashes) as if he was in the sunnambu kaaLavai, which was duly cured by Sage Thirunaavukkarasar - Appar.

Hence it is very much seen that though difference of opinions regarding different sectarian thoughts were existent in Sananthana Dharma, the harm or loss of life was almost nonexistent.

Hence the maxim " Sanaathana Dharma is a good tool in good hands, but the western religions are bad tools in bad hands".

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri CLN Ji,
This is a very thought provoking excellent post indeed.

Yes, questions of faith tend to evoke emotions. On the other hand, you are correct in my opinion - the reasoned approach based on logic is the best.

But I differ with you on one important aspect. One can not neatly separate these two aspects of human nature. Faith, logic, emotions, personality, character etc. of a person are all bundled together. To use the Hindu model, a Sattvic person will not do harm to others, regardless of faith. A Rajasic person may kill, even if he is entirely logic oriented. One can have a cool discussion with someone and decide that it is advantageous for him based on logic to kill him.

While passion aroused by faith may be a reason for killing in world history, domination over other people, killing other tribes to get more resources for themselves etc. have killed more persons, based on sheer logic. In ages where land ownership and other wealth owned by other than one's group was fair game. The values of those times were different. One can not apply again, today's more of all human fellowship to those times. Humans evolve over time. Would today some country would invade another country only to grab their land and annex, without world's approbation?

Faith is a big part of a human being's spiritual growth. It has nurtured the majority of folks on this globe from ancient times and made us grow as people. Only a tiny minority can be atheists. But then, even they put 'faith' on Science to answer the ultimate question.

I do not have your pessimistic view that because of faith, humans will go on killing. Killings may never end as a human condition, but I think with more knowledge about ourselves as humans through science, yes science, education will play a major role in diminishing the tribal/religious passions.

Regards,
KRS

There is a basic difference between "Faith" and "Reason". "Faith" involves 'acceptance without questioning', whereas "Reason" uses questioning as its very tool. For this very reason, "Faith" is capable of generation "Passion" whereas "Reason" cannot/should not, because inherently, it involves 'dissension' 'counter-arguments' and 'contrary view'. If any person who attempts reasoning with another becomes over-zealous, he is likely to develop passion in which situation he might slip into a "faith" mode to establish his side of the argument and he may not be any more 'reasonable'!

if I am faithful and you are unfaithful, I may dislike you, detest you, hate you and may even kill you, depending upon the level of passion that the situation has generated in me! On the other hand, if I am unfaithful and you are faithful , I disagree with you, I try to convince you, and if I still do not succeed, maybe, I dislike you and try to be estranged with you, but never develop any passion to the extent of hating you or killing you. I may, at the most, sneer or snigger at you but no more than that, because, reasoning, by its very nature accepts dissents and counter-arguments. No reasonable person who wishes to stick to 'Reason' can expect that the opponent has to accept what he says blindly; because, the moment he starts doing that, he passes on into the realm of "Faith", from "Reason"! [This logic applies even to this sort of discussions in this very Forum where we find worthy members becoming offensive to others some times, even if unconsciously!]

In a nutshell, "Faith" can easily lead one into "Intolerance", while "Reason" cannot. I feel that this is the root cause of all the notorious religious killings we have come across in history and we witness even today. For this very reason, I am afraid, we will not be able to root out religious killings in future too.

By the way, when you mentioned 'Vietnam', what you had in mind was perhaps 'Vienna'.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,

I have read Ponniyin Selvan of Amarar Kalki several times, and there is no mention of attrocities perpetrated by people of any sect of Sanaathana Dharma on any other sect. Yes there is a mention of verbal duals between people of Shaiva and Vaishnava sect.

Amarar Kalki has quoted difference of opinions between Shaivas and Vaishnavas in a comical way, in the lighter vain. He says once one Veera Vaishnava man was passing under the Gopuram of Thiruvaanaikoil Akhilandeshwari temple, when a stone from the Gopuram falls down on him. On looking up the man sees a crow perched on the Gopuram, and the Veera Vaishnava man says, "Oh, Veera Vaishnava Kaakaaye, in the Shaiva Gopuraththai idiththu thallu", i.e unmindful of the stone falling on him, he is happy to see removing a stone a small part of the Shaiva Gopuram of Thiruvaanaikoil Temple, and he considers that crow as belonging to Vaishva sect and requests the crow to demolish the temple gopuram.

This goes to prove that there were a lot of difference of opinions between the Shaiva and Vaishnava sects, and though the Chola kings were Shaivas, and have built hundreds of Shiva temples, but it is also to be understood that the kings were equally considerate to Vaishnavaits in the kingdom.

The Chola Kingdom is the place of Hundreds of Shiva temples which were morethan 2000 years old, and almost all of them were 'Paadal petra sthalangals' i.e they have hymns sung by Shaiva Naayanmaars.

The classic example is Thirvaanaikoil temple, which was built in 5th Century BC, by the Chola King Sengannan.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

dear subramanian,

my jaadhaga nomenclature, is that of your son. of hardha gothram.

sir, i ventured into the hints of wishful thinking. it was with some trepedition, for i see in you an intrinsically basic reformist tambram. we all need strong pillars to lean on, and as reformists, we do not have such, for in most instances, we do throw the baby, along with the bathwater.

in the politics of today, when there is a even chance for the loser to wage his views again, the acrimony and the residual casualties are beyond rason.

i can only reason, in those days of yore, when the border between starvation and full meal depended on the whims of the Lord of the land, the nature of the competition would have been anything but gentlemanly.

even to this date, when the natural obeisance to the God in terms of an iyengar is 'sEvikkal for perumaL', and thus studiously avoiding all the other icons of our pantheology, and whch we iyers accept with grudging but resentment, i cannot but think otherwise: in the times of vanthiya thevan, when the stakes were much higher, and the concept of insurance was nil, the losers lost is with their lives.

i may be a dark romantic. but the fairness of the person in me says that in those times, the winner took all, and the losers lost their heads.

pranaams to you too.

ps.. even today i have iyengar friends, whom i think, that 'they are so much like us'; till we enter the world of theology. to me they are as alien as the christians or the muslims. sad to say that.

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,

The Sannathana Dharma has taught me the lesson of love and amity with everyone. I am basically Iyer, a veda chanting Brahmin interested in Veda and Upanishadhs, but I have friends from Iyengaar, Rao, Protestant Christians, Pentacoste Christians, Roman Catholic Christians, Muslims, and my Sannathana Dharma has taught me to look them alike. I go to their houses and eat (of course vegetarian dishes) and they come to my house. I consider them humans and we have discussions in general matters not concerning religion.

I do not feel anything wrong in that.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

 

[suba42]

Dear Shri CLN Ji, and Shri. KRS ji,

The Sathvic Guna does not need scientific education, it only needs perennial love. In fact science may give more animosity just like Karunaanidhi calling Brahmins as Aryans (he says engirundho vandha Nalla Paambu) who have come to destroy their peaceful existence. The Sanaathana Dharma gives this perennial love.

Kena Upanishadh says when one looks at the aathman in every entity, he/she has gone very near to the Brahman.

By the way, Adolf Hitler fought as a Carporal in Vietnam during World War one for which he was given cross medal.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

 

[CLN]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Shri.CLN,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is a humble request to address me as Shri. Subramanian, I do not like this Mr., which is purely western.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I, humbly am not able to understand the purported connection you have coined between the State (the Ruler) and the people. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the ruler is benevolent to every one in the state, the people will be happy and bring out the best of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hence positive developments in so many Shaasthraas viz. Shilpa Shaasthra, Vimaana Shaasthra, Naatya Shaasthra, Sangeetha Shaasthra, Yoga Shaasthra, Vaasthu Shasthra, Jyothisha Shaasthra, Vaidhya Shassthra, and Yudhdha Shaasthra, to name a few, have been achieved only because of a positive atmosphere created by the respective rulers, before the birth of other religions. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though we have seen the enormous developments for so many millennia by the people of several kingdoms in Bhaarath, it is to be clearly understood that the state viz. the Ruler was benevolent to all his people, irrespective of their faiths.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The rise of Atheistic Religions viz. Jainism and Buddhism have been from 5th Century BC. What was the result in the growth of the civilization till then?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even after the birth and growth of Atheistic religions viz. Jainism and Buddhism, the growth in technology, science and medicine were beyond compare, since the state ensured a congenial living atmosphere with external religions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Vaidhya Shaasthra, we hade Charaka, Shushruthaa and other medicos, who gave performed many difficult surgeries with Oral Anesthesia and Local Anesthesia, which very much prevalent then.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Jyothisha Shaasthra, many seers viz. Bhaaskara, Varaahamihiraa, Aaryabhataa were very highly developed in Jyothisha.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is a real life story of a sage who prophesized death to King Vikramaadhitya by a Pig, and the King took all the precautions and lived in the 5th storey of his palace duly guarded to prevent any entry of a Pig, but on the predicted date and time, he was found dead due to falling of a pig statue (which was part of a pillar) on him in 6th floor, and the name Varaahamihiraa stayed to that Sage.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As you had stated an incident of Pallava King Mahendra Pallavan (father of Narasimha Pallavan – Maamallan – of Mamallaburam fame – Mahabalipuram caves near Chennai) who converted to Jainism at the behest of Thirunavukkarasar, but the sage Thirunaavukkarasar was brought back to Sanaathana Dharma by his sister Thilakavathi, and when King Mahendra called Thirunaavukkarasar to his Dharbaar, sage Thirunaavukkarasar did not go, because of which the Sage Thirunaavukkarasar was put in a Shunnaambu KaaLavaai, (Sodium Carbonate mine) {if I am not wrong}, when the Sage Thirunaavukkarasu sings the famous Hymn “ Naamaarkkum KudiyallOm, Namanai AnjOm, EmaappOm PiNiyaRiyOm IdaRpadOm” , which made the King Mahendra Pallavan to return back to Sanaathana Dharma.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]About the Madurai incident of torture and killing of Buddhists by a king, is not known of (if you could kindly give me the name of the king, the real truth can be found out). I do not have a time machine to go to the past and find the truth, but still the truth can be found out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This proves to say beyond doubt the Kingdoms in Bhaarath were very Congenial and only because of that attitude, the developments in all walks of life were beyond compare.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please read “The Wonder that was India” by Allen Basham of Canberra University. He says from Himalayaas to Kanyakumaari, the people did not know to tell lies, did not know to steal. All the house were only latched and not locked because there was no thief in any country. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here in Chola Naadu (I belong to Thiruvaanaikoil, Trichy) there were thousands of PaNdaka Shaalais (free food centres) and hundreds of Aadhoora Shalais (free medical centres) governed by the Kings, and with no fees, best food and best medical facility were available to all people of the state. (Please read “History of South India by R.S.Iyengaar).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This was only because of the basic root of perennial love taught by our Sanaathan Dharma.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Best Regards,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B.Subramanian.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Dear Shri Subramanaian,

If I have hurt your sentiments by my use of "Mr." for you, I am deeply sorry for it. No doubt it is western and I used it only because it is universally popular, unlike our own "Shri" which only we Indians, or rather, Hindus, use. but I do not attach any extra importance to it. I am myself used to both the honoric prefixes and I also get addressed both ways. Perhaps, being not very 'religiosistic', I have been tolerant and not mindful of the usage of the one or the other.

Regarding the Madurai massacres of thousands of Jains and Buddhists in the 7th or 8th centuries A.D. (I hope I am not committing any indiscretion in using A.D. which can be construed to be accepting Jesus Christ as one's Master ) by Varapandian and Gunapandian I understand that there are enough evidences like stone inscriptions sculptures and frescoes celebrating the killings in the Meenaksi temple in Madurai and elsewhere. As I have no compelling interest to delve into these murky matters deeper I request you to excuse me for being unable to give further details. Unfortunately, I also do not have any time machine! By the way, in case you happen to come across one, please be kind enough to give me a 'lift' because it would be pure fun!

You have dealt elaborately on how several skills and knowledge developments took place in our land, long before even the birth of some other religions. I am also as proud of them as you are, and I believe that aspect is NOT what is being disputed about in the last ten or twelve posts in this thread. I also do not think there is any attempt by anybody here denying them. But you are trying to paint a picture as if all these positive developments form part of only a religious belief.

By pointing out that even after the birth and growth of Atheistic religions viz. Jainism and Buddhism, the growth in technology, science and medicine were beyond compare, since the state ensured a congenial living atmosphere with external religions, you are only confirming what I have mentioned in my post that in our land the kings, by and large, did not adopt any particular religion as a 'state religion', a la Aurangazeb later.

 

[CLN]

Dear Shri CLN Ji, and Shri. KRS ji,

The Sathvic Guna does not need scientific education, it only needs perennial love. In fact science may give more animosity just like Karunaanidhi calling Brahmins as Aryans (he says engirundho vandha Nalla Paambu) who have come to destroy their peaceful existence. The Sanaathana Dharma gives this perennial love.

Kena Upanishadh says when one looks at the aathman in every entity, he/she has gone very near to the Brahman.

By the way, Adolf Hitler fought as a Carporal in Vietnam during World War one for which he was given cross medal.

Pranaams.

B.Subramanian.

Dear Shri Subramanian,

I don't understand how Karunanidhi's picturesque description of Brahmins as "engirundho vandha Nalla Paambu" can be "science" though no doubt it oozes out animosity! I wonder why you keep sending Corporal Hitler to Viet Nam again instead of keeping him safe in the nearby Vienna itself!

By the way "Sunnaambu" is 'Calcium Carbonate', not 'Sodium Carbonate'. As a man of Physics I know that much Chemistry, but please don't ask me for more!

 

[CLN]

Dear Sri CLN Ji,
This is a very thought provoking excellent post indeed.

Yes, questions of faith tend to evoke emotions. On the other hand, you are correct in my opinion - the reasoned approach based on logic is the best.

But I differ with you on one important aspect. One can not neatly separate these two aspects of human nature. Faith, logic, emotions, personality, character etc. of a person are all bundled together. To use the Hindu model, a Sattvic person will not do harm to others, regardless of faith. A Rajasic person may kill, even if he is entirely logic oriented. One can have a cool discussion with someone and decide that it is advantageous for him based on logic to kill him.

While passion aroused by faith may be a reason for killing in world history, domination over other people, killing other tribes to get more resources for themselves etc. have killed more persons, based on sheer logic. In ages where land ownership and other wealth owned by other than one's group was fair game. The values of those times were different. One can not apply again, today's more of all human fellowship to those times. Humans evolve over time. Would today some country would invade another country only to grab their land and annex, without world's approbation?

Faith is a big part of a human being's spiritual growth. It has nurtured the majority of folks on this globe from ancient times and made us grow as people. Only a tiny minority can be atheists. But then, even they put 'faith' on Science to answer the ultimate question.

I do not have your pessimistic view that because of faith, humans will go on killing. Killings may never end as a human condition, but I think with more knowledge about ourselves as humans through science, yes science, education will play a major role in diminishing the tribal/religious passions.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS,

I certainly agree that education is the only hope. I also feel that the wantonness with which atrocities were perpetrated in the past, on the basis of feelings of superiority of race, religion, pelf or prowess are on the wane. You can't think of an event like the 'Exodus' or the Crusades or the slave trade, happening any more. But, Auschwitz happened only a few decades ago; Viet Nam brutalities were still more recent. Middle-East wars, Taliban excesses, terrorist atrocities like 9/11, 13/12, 26/11 are still more recent.
As you point out, Saatvics are not to indulge in violence because it is abhorrent to them. But we have in this world, even today, religious preceptors whose duty it is to only spread love compassion and tolerance among their followers, instigating impressionable youngsters through their incendiary exhortations into insurgencies - all in the name of some thing "holy"!

I hate to be pessimistic; but is there really any choice?

 

[Nara]

Nice hilarious post CLN sir

...
... (I hope I am not committing any indiscretion in using A.D. which can be construed to be accepting Jesus Christ as one's Master )

Yes you are! Try CE. as in Common Era and BCE. as in Before Common Era. More information can be found here.

since the state ensured a congenial living atmosphere with external religions,

However, they did not show the same level of tolerance to heterodox religions. At least one, Charvaka, was systematically eradicated. None of their texts survive except for some glimpses appearing as poorva paksha.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri KRS,

I certainly agree that education is the only hope. I also feel that the wantonness with which atrocities were perpetrated in the past, on the basis of feelings of superiority of race, religion, pelf or prowess are on the wane. You can't think of an event like the 'Exodus' or the Crusades or the slave trade, happening any more. But, Auschwitz happened only a few decades ago; Viet Nam brutalities were still more recent. Middle-East wars, Taliban excesses, terrorist atrocities like 9/11, 13/12, 26/11 are still more recent.
As you point out, Saatvics are not to indulge in violence because it is abhorrent to them. But we have in this world, even today, religious preceptors whose duty it is to only spread love compassion and tolerance among their followers, instigating impressionable youngsters through their incendiary exhortations into insurgencies - all in the name of some thing "holy"!

I hate to be pessimistic; but is there really any choice?

CLN,

can we please remember in our own india, in 1971, we hosted the entire hindu population of bangla desh. otherwise it would have been mass murder for them.

as recently as 10 years ago, we had the horrors of bosnia. so, i do have grave fears, that mass scale murders will happen again. in even greater magnitude, quick, complete.

the state today has information on every one of us - by name, age, gender, ethnicity. it has also the tools to round us up at short notice. the germans have given informative lessons on running concentration camps, slave labour and above all mass killings with minimal effort.

it can happen in india. in tamil nadu. the leftover tambrams can be packed off into camps and whooshed up the chimney in gaseous vapours. under what conditions? leftover animosities from tamil eelam where tambram is the only community which opposed LTTE. or sheer economic or power usurpation from the dravidian parties by the centre or the indian army, bypassing the election process.

yes sir. in this day and age, every human on earth, no matter where he or she resides, is an open target.

thus spake the phantom

 

[CLN]

Nara: Yes you are! Try CE. as in Common Era and BCE. as in Before Common Era. More information can be found here.

Thank you Nara ji for the useful information. But I find from the link you have given me that one can still interpret the use of CE and BCE as "Christian Era" and "Before Christian Era" if he / she prefers to!

 

[CLN]

kunjuppu: in this day and age, every human on earth, no matter where he or she resides, is an open target.

Sad! And Shocking!! But very very true!!!

 

[Nara]

Thank you Nara ji for the useful information. But I find from the link you have given me that one can still interpret the use of CE and BCE as "Christian Era" and "Before Christian Era" if he / she prefers to!

Is that not still better than the odious "A.D."?

best ....

 

[Nara]

....as recently as 10 years ago, we had the horrors of bosnia. so, i do have grave fears, that mass scale murders will happen again. in even greater magnitude, quick, complete.

K, you are forgetting the most horrific of all, the Rwandan genocide, the genocide in Darfur, and of course, the continuing genocide of Palestinians by the Americans with their Egyptian and Israeli proxies.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

K, you are forgetting the most horrific of all, the Rwandan genocide, the genocide in Darfur, and of course, the continuing genocide of Palestinians by the Americans with their Egyptian and Israeli proxies.

Cheers!

oui oui mon ami.

something tells me that the list is only going to increase. one quick and dirty way to control population.