Are we brahmins hypocrite

[Raji Ram]

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........ FYKI, I am not interested in 'debate'. I only express my views.

Thank you very much Sir!
My regards for Thyagaraja is very very high. So, here after I shall skip your posts containing the word 'Thyagaraja'. eace:
Of course we have many other members to read all your 'uLLadhaich chollifying'! :ranger:

 

[Raji Ram]

May be I should learn to take such comments like

Thyagaraja was beguiled into believing that the idols of two males, one female and one monkey-man was the Supreme Truth or reality

. as 'comedy track' in our forum!

 

[Nara]

......as 'comedy track

Please Mrs RR, don't be like the imbeciles who resort to personal put downs rather than reasoned argument, that would break my heart. We can respect each other even if we disagree, no?

We have common ground, we all love and adore his music, why can't that be enough? Why should we be mocked just because we want to only respect the genius, but not worship the man uncritically?

Dear Mrs RR, to me personally, it doesn't matter, let him be a saint with a past, if not paste, or a sinner with a future, but, for reasonable people to mock contrarion view is quite discouraging.

 

[tbs]

Dear Shri Nara,

I see that we tend to look in the same way on this topic. I also agree that the musical compositions of Thyagaraja are non pareil and I adore many of them. But then that does not make me think that Thyagaraja, the person should also be venerated and eulogized without any other regard. (We have a Malayalam lyricist Vayalar Rama Varma who dies few years ago. He was a composer who has made some very great and endearing movie songs. But as a person he is almost always looked at as having been an alcoholic, one who neglected his family utterly, etc. In Kerala, people are able to perceive this difference. Since I have grown up in such a milieu, I think that it is quite OK to honestly write about the shortcomings of Thyagaraja, the man while, at the same time keeping my respects for his musical compositions.)

Again, even these people who adulate Thyagaraja so much, will not, I think dare to pronounce that Muthuswamy Dikshitar or Syama Sastri were composers of a lesser calibre! Hence, it is like our religion in which each deity is praised sky-high and as the Parabrahmam itself.

What I tried (and may still try to do) was to analyze the Man, Thyagaraja and some of his obvious failings or deficiencies. People who talk very well about women's equality etc., seem to completely forget what would have been the tragic life of the wifes of Thyagaraja, especially when we remember that the first wife died childless after 5 years of marriage and the second (sister of the first wife) had one son who died childless.

I again say, let us "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

hi sangom sir,

every great men had some personal draw backs always there.......take gandhi...his own son alchoholic./neglected....pity life of

kasturba gandhi....i think...some personal bad thinks makes a man great....i think u know the personal story of swami sivananda


of divine life society.....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

May be I should learn to take such comments like

. as 'comedy track' in our forum!

The truth is the only reason the saint is "criticized" here is because a good number of Tamil Brahmins adore him. Throwing barbs at the saint is specifically meant to hurt people like you. Therefore your response is one of the best remedies available to you.

 

[Raji Ram]

Please Mrs RR, don't be like the imbeciles who resort to personal put downs rather than reasoned argument, that would break my heart. We can respect each other even if we disagree, no?

We have common ground, we all love and adore his music, why can't that be enough? Why should we be mocked just because we want to only respect the genius, but not worship the man uncritically?

Dear Mrs RR, to me personally, it doesn't matter, let him be a saint with a past, if not paste, or a sinner with a future, but, for reasonable people to mock contrarion view is quite discouraging.

Dear Prof. Sir,

I did not mean to hurt Sri. Sangom. But I could not tolerate demeaning the bhakthi of Thyagaraja by Sangom Sir's post.

Sorry. I did not mean to hurt anyone in our forum. Hope you understand! Thank you.

 

[auh]

I am a big "0" in music, but I personally feel that individuals should not be deified, whatever may be their greatness. The talent may be divine but not the human.

 

[auh]

TB or Not TB?got
I get a weird feeling that this thread is going to be the hottest thread for this week and then after nice Dishum Dishum the OP might not even respond and for all you know the OP might not even be a Brahmin! LOL

Sathyanarayan forgive me if I am wrong cos I have seen threads before where someone comes and starts some controversial Brahmin thread and runs off and further more Brahmins as in TBs seldom find fault with themselves.

Good prediction.... Now, have you got any "weird feeling" about the elections?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I am a big "0" in music, but I personally feel that individuals should not be deified, whatever may be their greatness. The talent may be divine but not the human.

The talent is human but the talent is so great that the man is treated on par with God and hence the deification. Contrary to what was reasoned here before, deification does not discourage but in fact encourages emergence of new talent. If one puts his talent to good use, one can elevate self to godly status is the message here.

 

[sarang]

Despite their past or behaviour, we deify and respect all nayanmars, azhwars, mira, gnaeshwar, thukaram and thousand others who have enriched our lives.

some enjoy and deem it as their birthright to throw dung on icons. Only path available to us is to shun them and clean the uncouth and uncivilized damage done by them.

I am a big "0" in music, but I personally feel that individuals should not be deified, whatever may be their greatness. The talent may be divine but not the human.

 

[sangom]

May be I should learn to take such comments like

"Thyagaraja was beguiled into believing that the idols of two males, one female and one monkey-man was the Supreme Truth or reality"

. as 'comedy track' in our forum!

Actually, if you "learn" Thyagaraja's compositions with meaning, the above will be abundantly clear. Consider the kriti ப (ப்ர)க்கல நிலபடி itself, again. In the சரணம் comes this statement :

மனஸுன தலசி மை மரசியு (உ)ன்னாரா

(are (unnArA) you in trance (mai maraci) (maraciyunnArA) (literally unaware of body consciousness) meditating (dalaci) (literally think) in the mind (manasuna) on Him?)

So, you see, Thyagaraja admits to the extent that he sees Sita and Lakshmana as if transfixed, i.e., To render motionless, as with a fixed stare or by arousing terror or awe. This imagination would not normally have come unless Thyagaraja was looking at the image before him as something eternal and unchanging. This is one example (and there are many more) which unmistakably show the "kink" in Thyagaraja's ideas, which possibly enabled him to churn out so many compositions.

I have also read in some very old issue of a musical magazine (Shruti, if my memory serves me right) that Thyagaraja rather childishly believed that Rama would appear before him in the end and lead him on to the other world, which just did not transpire; this made him (Thyagaraja) into a "mental" state for the last few months of his life.

It seems to be part of the "hagiographing" process to completely remove unpleasant and inconvenient truths and to substitute whatever best suits the purpose of hagiography.

It is your sweet will to consider whatever you want as "comedy track", but in that process, there is a hidden risk — you may yourself become, finally, the greatest comedy of all !

 

[sangom]

hi sangom sir,

every great men had some personal draw backs always there.......take gandhi...his own son alchoholic./neglected....pity life of

kasturba gandhi....i think...some personal bad thinks makes a man great....i think u know the personal story of swami sivananda


of divine life society.....

Dear Shri tbs sir,

I completely agree with you. In this thread RR brought in Thyagaraja's name in one post to show how blameless he was and so on. Subsequently, she again brought up one song in which she claimed Thyagaraja was making reference to hypocrites. I siad probably he was referring, in that particular song to brahmins only. I quoted from another song to prove that Thyagaraja had indeed blamed brahmins. Meanwhile there was a post by Renuka describing Thyagaraja as a "pure soul" and I questioned this notion. At around that time our resident brahmin mercenary brigade also became hyper active.

I hold Shirdi Sai Baba in high respect. But if anyone says somethings negative about him, I will not even bother to react. If at all, I will put forward my view/s and move on. I will not make it a "prestige issue" that since I hold Baba in respect, others must also do so. Such insistence is childish, I feel.

If all of the members here would have believed what you say, then all these discussions would not have happened, imo.

 

[sangom]

Thank you very much Sir!
My regards for Thyagaraja is very very high. So, here after I shall skip your posts containing the word 'Thyagaraja'. eace:
Of course we have many other members to read all your 'uLLadhaich chollifying'! :ranger:

As I already stated, I am only expressing my views and am not at all particular that you or any one else reads/responds to those. Your not reading someone's posts will not be even felt, except by the coterie singing your paeans here, I think.

 

[vgane]

If a person understands a krithi in THIS WAY, it is not possible to debate with that person!

What all 'names' like 'BB' will Thyagaraja get in future is unknown to me! :sad:

Dear Sangom,

I am personally offended as much as RR Madam...It is plain blasphemy!

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

I am personally offended as much as RR Madam...It is plain blasphemy!

Dear Shri Gane,

It is good that you are offering your help to RR. But the problem, for both of you, is that you are unable to separate the music, the lyrics and the composer as three separate entities, each with its own separate pluses and minuses.

This inability is what I see in this forum about the "only unmentionable person" also. Many members here are unable to see a message as distinct from the messenger, that is.

Where have all the great logical skills of brahmins gone?

 

[tbs]

hi sangom sir,

I hold Shirdi Sai Baba in high respect. But if anyone says somethings negative about him, I will not even bother to react. If at all, I will put forward my view/s and move on. I will not make it a "prestige issue" that since I hold Baba in respect, others must also do so. Such insistence is childish, I feel.



i feel same.......i have same unchallanged respect abt shirdi sai baba......

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Gane,

It is good that you are offering your help to RR. But the problem, for both of you, is that you are unable to separate the music, the lyrics and the composer as three separate entities, each with its own separate pluses and minuses.

This inability is what I see in this forum about the "only unmentionable person" also. Many members here are unable to see a message as distinct from the messenger, that is.

Where have all the great logical skills of brahmins gone?

Hope this clarifies that Human life can not go well naturally only with pure logic. Even if humans stand upside down, humans can not live without basic human instinct and the quest to stick to something and be happy with things that are beyond logic as well BUT are reasonable for happy, just full and dignified human life.

People who would attempt to survive purely on Logic will end up being Cynical, Egoistic, Cruel, Crude, Hypocrite and the pathetic thing is, would ultimately feel bitter about themselves and their life.

Off course, some people may present themselves as such pure Logical Entity in forums like this BUT be a natural human in real. If not, it is imperative for them to correct themselves and revert to normalcy in synch. with Human Nature, for their own good and good of others surrounding them, IMHO.

 

[auh]

The talent is human but the talent is so great that the man is treated on par with God and hence the deification. Contrary to what was reasoned here before, deification does not discourage but in fact encourages emergence of new talent. If one puts his talent to good use, one can elevate self to godly status is the message here.

If "greatness" were to be the criteria for deification, to put a human on the lofty clouds, I guess there would be only deities everywhere, for can we not glorify that in everyone ignoring whatever weakness/faults there may be? Then, in a sense we are all equals, and there is no greater status.

 

[C RAVI]

hi sangom sir,

I hold Shirdi Sai Baba in high respect. But if anyone says somethings negative about him, I will not even bother to react. If at all, I will put forward my view/s and move on. I will not make it a "prestige issue" that since I hold Baba in respect, others must also do so. Such insistence is childish, I feel.



i feel same.......i have same unchallanged respect abt shirdi sai baba......

Shri tbs,

To achieve the above attitude one should be determined to be different in Forums like this where one is very much active. Some Active members here actually LIVE here as well, they don't come here as LOGICAL Entity in forums BUT come here as they are, as humans. And, involve here with their true self.

These humans here with such attitude and perception can relish only stuffs that are not against basic human tendencies and are actually in line with things that are considered relevant to "Human Involvement". As such, they act, react, respond, debate, exchange views etc..etc and give sense to their active participation.

Off course, what ever may be presented here, people will move on BUT would for sure register their annoyance, disappointment, hurt and anger.

It is not Logical to expect such humans here to not to react. Because, in such a case, the existence of this forum itself, that is meant of Humans, would become senseless, at least for such Active Members.

 

[auh]

Hope this clarifies that Human life can not go well naturally only with pure logic. Even if humans stand upside down, humans can not live without basic human instinct and the quest to stick to something and be happy with things that are beyond logic as well BUT are reasonable for happy, just full and dignified human life.

I dont think the comparison between "logic" and "basic human instinct (bhi)" is logical or just.

But I would like to correct myself if you illustrate how logic is ignored in bhi. Can you plese list what bhi you suggest are illogical?

People who would attempt to survive purely on Logic will end up being Cynical, Egoistic, Cruel, Crude, Hypocrite and the pathetic thing is, would ultimately feel bitter about themselves and their life.

Now that is a sweeping generalization. You see, logic helps in understanding more about how things should be views and how a valid conclusion can be arrived.

Off course, some people may present themselves as such pure Logical Entity in forums like this BUT be a natural human in real. If not, it is imperative for them to correct themselves and revert to normalcy in synch. with Human Nature, for their own good and good of others surrounding them, IMHO.

the "O" does not seem to be "H"... it only reeks of prejudice.

 

[vgane]

To criticize is worth the effort; but to cast aspersions on holy figures in a website promoted as Tamil Brahmins is sacrilege of the highest order!

 

[Vaagmi]

This is really interesting, the OP puts a mirror against the Brahmin face and all the responses, ironically, prove the point. How would this excuse -- everybody is like that -- square with the claims that Brahmins are honest, truthful, intelligent, god-fearing? This mirror has a peculiar effect, now they all want to say Brahmins are no different from all other castes, LOL!!!

You did not include deceitful as a quality claimed by brahmins. Being honest they perhaps admit they are hypocrites.Being truthful they admit they are hypocrites. Being intelligent and God-fearing they admit they are hypocrites. Hypocrisy is not as bad as murder, committing fraud, stealing, abusing, exploiting, cheating etc., You can be a brahmin and yet be a hypocrite because you may have that weakness. It is a harmless passtime perhaps. You can be a king and yet have hiccups. LOL. The dictionary meaning of the word is "falsely pretending to be virtuous".

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in post 11:

You seem to be a new comer. If you go through the archives, you will find the very same members (who try to hide now under 'we are but part of humanity' claiming many things unique, special, noble, virtuous and so on & so forth, about brahmins; they go even to the extent of saying that unadulterated brahmin genes are something very special and much more refined than the genes of the rest (of the people) !

I am responding to the highlighted part of the post above. This is what is called ranting. Considering himself to be the master of all that he surveys, here the member has chosen to twist what was said in an earlier post by me. If he does not understand what I wrote about genes of Brahmins ( is now a part of the archives which he recommending the new member to read) and if anthropology is Afrikaans to him he should keep his mouth shut rather than blurt out such inanities. Now I am ready to present what I referred to in my earlier post about genes of Brahmins(not Brahmin genes, for that is a clever manipulation by this learned member) and invite this ‘great knowledgeable’ member(with a bucket always in his hand with a sprayer) for a debate –a debate between just him and me-in which I would try to explain what I said. Let him participate and prove that what I said was something laughable-as his smilie suggests. I rather challenge him to accept this. Let me see.

 

[Vaagmi]

Many of us brahmins harbour a wrong notion about god. Simply put, the idol in the temple can be likened to a radi-active source, kind of, emitting radiation which will increase the bhakta-status of the devotee. This radiation works, according to most tabra imagination, in the same way as a radio-active needle; its result increase in direct proportion to the nearness to the idol, time spent in that near position (to the idol), the loudness with which one chants his prayers, mantras, etc., and also the get-up or dress and how far it conforms to that of a perceived model, which is usually a legendary 'bhakta', etc. Our people will spare no effort to "maximize" the yield from their temple-going investment.

What a display of arrogance and ignorance. Wow!!!.

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in #13:

Well Mrs. RR, obviously you have not been following some of the flame threads. Here is one beauty from about six weeks ago explaining why a minuscule brahmin caste came to be opposed by just about everyone else.

The reason why the miniscule brahmin caste became the target of attack has been analysed here again and again. They were hardworking and yet non violent. They were very poor and yet were benevolent. They were disciplined and yet not in a military way with any offensive intent. They were recognized as such and were respected and were taken care of by the kings. This became an eyesore for those middle castes who were rich but were also rapacious, were united in their biradari with offensive intentions and so were always looked at with suspicion, were too much given to every indulgence whether it is drink, gambling, eating or woman. This made them green with envy. The nonviolent nature of the brahmins was a facilitating factor. So they were singled out for being the most visible symbol of every thing that is desirable in this world. And attacked. And then politics took over and everything is okay in politics.​

Nara,

Please let us have the benefit of your objections/counterpoints/criticism of that "beauty" from your "flame thread". Kindly keep the rhetoric (and put downs-that term you use quite often) away and come to the point straight. Please.