Are we brahmins hypocrite

[sarang]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Grieve not; fight.

Saint Thyagaraja is a noble person who was not interested in money and the whole world knows that. He led a simple life and

had very deep bhakthi and adored Rama. Our Guru Dr. S. Ramanathan used to give wonderful program titled 'A day with

Thyagaraja'. Please do not try to brand the Saint as a BB and demean him by such words like



It hurts a lot.

 

[biswa]

We are all hypocrites. Anyone dispute that?

 

[prasad1]

We are all hypocrites. Anyone dispute that?

Slight correction, everyone except me is a hypocrite. LOL:first::second::third:

 

[renuka]

We are all hypocrites. Anyone dispute that?

Dear Biswa,

You see..which hypocrite will admit they are hypocrites?

So how to answer your question??LOL

 

[renuka]

It is always better not to judge anyone or have a Holier Than Thou attitude for the following reasons:

1)When you judge someone harshly for a wrong doing and in the future we ourselves commit some despicable act how are we going to face people? Wont we be called hypocrite or even worse?

2)Its better to be silent about anything and not comment on anything so that gives us the option to be "bad" if the situation arises and no one can point a finger at us cos we never judged anyone else.

3)We have no idea what lies ahead in the future..the situations we will face etc..so better not project a too perfect image cos that adds to stress in maintaining a squeaky clean image..better to be mysterious and keep people guessing Nayagan Dialogue style "neenga nallavara kettavara"(are you good or bad) so that we are entitled to be good,bad or even ugly!

 

[tbs]

It is always better not to judge anyone or have a Holier Than Thou attitude for the following reasons:

1)When you judge someone harshly for a wrong doing and in the future we ourselves commit some despicable act how are we going to face people? Wont we be called hypocrite or even worse?

2)Its better to be silent about anything and not comment on anything so that gives us the option to be "bad" if the situation arises and no one can point a finger at us cos we never judged anyone else.

hi

generally judgemental/hypocrats are 2 sides of one coin...these 2 characters are basically attitude of human beings.....brahmins

are famous for these 2 attitudes....

 

[renuka]

hi

generally judgemental/hypocrats are 2 sides of one coin...these 2 characters are basically attitude of human beings.....brahmins

are famous for these 2 attitudes....

TBS garu,

I have edited my post..I added this new point.

3)We have no idea what lies ahead in the future..the situations we will face etc..so better not project a too perfect image cos that adds to stress in maintaining a squeaky clean image..better to be mysterious and keep people guessing Nayagan Dialogue style "neenga nallavara kettavara"(are you good or bad)so that we are entitled to be good,bad or even ugly!

 

[Raji Ram]

Truth hurts most times!

Ego does not like to be hurt even a little.

But, cynical attitude will talk ONLY such TRUTH demeaning and humiliating everyone around!! :blah: ... :humble:

BTW, it is better to remember that one reason for the Carnatic singers to mint money is the Saint who lived the simplest life!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

We are all hypocrites. Anyone dispute that?

But "some are more hypocritical than others" is the thinking here, perhaps. LOL!

 

[Raji Ram]

We can try to set up some new meters like 'Ego meter', 'Hypocrisy meter', 'Truth meter' and so on and may be 'BB meter' too! :decision:

 

[Raghy]

en
I have all ways thinking are we Brahmins hypocrate. This thinking has arisen on account of some observation.
the first observation:
1) i overheard a Brahmin old senior citizen who was standing in line in vadaplani temple on Kartigai deepam day asking other to show some patience and not to jump line. He was telling to others that before God every one is equal. But when spoted some friend, a police officer who was given vip entry he lost no moment to wave hands to greet and with a smile joined him jumping the que.

incident no.2) Another gentlemen who porbably lived long in western countries, was telling every one that in west there is absolute silence in temple and church like in India where people pray at top of their voice. But whe Kalpura arathi was shown he forgot his western praise and shouted at his highest voice Oh Muruga.

incident 3) another gentleman to wanted enter in the middle of the que and when he was ousted out he left the que he left the que with philosphical remark, theryoonilum irupar and thrumbilum irupar, which means God is present everwhere


one thing in common with all these persons: THEY WERE WEARING TRADITIONAL BRAHMIN PANCHA KACHAM AND POONUL WAS OBVLIOUSLY VISIBILE since they did not wear pny top garments.hy

Are we hypocrate.

sathyanarayanan

Greetings.

It is interesting to see such a long thread on this subject. Sorry, I did not read all the posts though.

This is my answer to the OP - yes, from the scenarios shown, the subject in those scenarios are hypocrites.

The next question - From the samples shown, can we deduce Brahmins in general are hypocrites? My answer would be - yes, we may consider across the board all the brahmins are hypocrites.

Take this forum itself for example - every single member in this forum had been a hypocrite at one time or the other. So, what is the big deal?

Hypocrisy is just human trait. All the brahmins are humans. So, all the brahmins are hypocrites at one time or another.

Honestly I don't see any debate in this subject at all!

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

But, cynical attitude will talk ONLY such TRUTH demeaning and humiliating everyone around!! :blah: ... :humble:

BTW, it is better to remember that one reason for the Carnatic singers to mint money is the Saint who lived the simplest life!

When truth breaks the bubble of so-called greatness which has been built around somebody, such truth will look as 'cynical'.

Mukesh Ambani has perhaps helped more people to mint money - through jobs as also the stocks and shares - than all Carnatic singers put together. Again, I would like to know what the reaction will be/can be when the personality gets changed to Muthuswamy Dikshithar or Syama Sastrikal or Annamacharya. From the above averment it will look as though Carnatic singers did not at all benefit, money-wise, by singing the compositions of Dikshithar, Syama Sastri etc. Sad!

"Simplest life" is the impression sought to be spread, but I recollect having read that Shri Balamuralikrishna had opined that Thyagaraja was not all that poor as to live on unccha vrritti etc. Possibly he was either lazy or incompetent to manage the lands and properties because his maternal grandfather, Giriraja Kavi, was an affluent person (see here) and so it is reasonable to presume that he would not have given his only daughter (seethalakshmy) to a "bhikshaamdehi" type of boy. Perhaps this laziness/incompetence was the cause of rift between Thyagaraja and his brother.

I will refer particularly refer to the kriti P(r)akkala NilabaDi wherein it is stated as follows:

cukkala rāyani geru momu gala
su-dati sītamma saumitri rāmunikiru - pakkala nilabaḍi kolice muccaṭa
bāga delpa rādā

1. It is clear that Thyagaraja goes on the basis that Seetha and Lakshmana are kind of permanently standing (hence, pakkala nilabaḍi) on either side of Rama; he just does not seem to have realized that if at all this was a "pose".

2. Thyagaraja describes the teeth of Sita, but has nothing to say about Lakshmana. Why at all should he describe only Sita?

Last, but not least, while people talk so high about Thyagaraja's "simple life" etc., they forget the travails and troubles to which his innocent wife would have been subjected to.

 

[renuka]

From what I read before..Annamacharya was one of the very few composers who never used his own name in any of his composition.

Thyagaraja used his name often in his composition.

 

[sangom]

From what I read before..Annamacharya was one of the very few composers who never used his own name in any of his composition.

Thyagaraja used his name often in his composition.

Annamacharya's compositions were put on copper plates and were buried somewhere in the Tirumala temple wall. This was accidentally found out sometime during the last few decades and much of what we hear today are tuned by one Shri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy.

Thyagaraja is an icon for the tabras of Madras area just as the Kanchi mutt is. Hence we will find much eulogy about Thyagaraja.

 

[renuka]

Annamacharya's compositions were put on copper plates and were buried somewhere in the Tirumala temple wall. This was accidentally found out sometime during the last few decades and much of what we hear today are tuned by one Shri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy.

Prince Rama Varma had said this during one of his concerts....75,000 copper plates were found and many songs are yet to be tuned.

[video=youtube_share;A_pSdP6rbIg]http://youtu.be/A_pSdP6rbIg[/video]

 

[tks]

There are beautiful compositions available by Thyagaraja and others rendered in mesmerizing ragas by many phenomenal artists . We are fortunate that we are able to enjoy such compositions today. Why care what kind of life any of the artists and composers had even if authentic account is available which itself is questionable.

Focus on history in such topics is for losers ....

 

[prasad1]

There are beautiful compositions available by Thyagaraja and others rendered in mesmerizing ragas by many phenomenal artists . We are fortunate that we are able to enjoy such compositions today. Why care what kind of life any of the artists and composers had even if authentic account is available which itself is questionable.

Focus on history in such topics is for losers ....

Every saint had a past, but every sinner has a future.
The saint with a paste has mended his ways and progressed on even to attain higher abode, but the sinners who find faults with the saints past has many more lives to be born again, may be even in lower lives.

When one criticizes luminaries 1000 times better than one self it just goes to show how small that person (criticizer) is.

Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants.

Isaac Newton:

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Nara]

First, Thyagaraja is a great composer, perhaps even the greatest Carnatic music composer. What I am going to say is about us, not about Thyagaraja. So, I request dear members not to think of this as casting aspersions upon the great composer and feel hurt.

Is it possible to enjoy, respect, and even adore the genius of our ancestors without deifying them, elevating them to the stratosphere and forbidding honest assessment of his/her life? We find equal geniuses in the west, like Mozart and Beethoven, their music is no less adored, but they are not worshipped. Their life stories are not beautified.

Newton is arguably the greatest scientist the world has seen yet, but his dalliances with alchemy is not swept under the rug. They even celebrate the greatest blunders of the greatest scientists, e.g. "Brilliant Blunders: From Darwin to Einstein - Colossal Mistakes by Great Scientists That Changed Our Understanding of Life and the Universe".

Why do we feel the urge to have only hagiographies and feel hurt with biographies? Gandhi's life comes to mind -- mention Mahatma's ugly side and the hammer of great soul will come down upon you before you have time to blink -- we saw that sometime back in this very forum.

This is not about Thyagaraja at all, it is about us, why must we be afraid to take a critical look at the life stories of our heros? What we find may not be picture perfect, but a nuanced understanding of their biographies can only benefit us by reminding us that our own shortcomings need not be an obstacle to do our best to excel.

Deifying them will take them away from us into the stratosphere. I feel by deifying Thyagaraja we lessen his genius -- i.e. his genius is not his but divine. Deifying him makes him a little less of a role model for the next Thyagaraja in the wings -- i.e. he is god and who am I to dream I can be like him.

Thyagaraja's personal failings, if there were any, only make him more endearing, more human, more like us than gods. There is nothing to feel hurt about that, I think.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

It is almost always not about criticism per say but the type of criticism that is veiled against an icon that riles people. For example, discussing Newton's mistakes is different from calling him an outright idiot or cheat. Both cannot be simply swept under "valid" criticism.

For a person who does not value anything, it is easy to claim that nothing is worth being valued. It takes a certain mindset to understand the mindset of people having opposing views. This applies to all of us.

 

[C RAVI]

Prominent personalities are public figures and their personality is exposed to the public. When righteous people with their great public contributions worth adoring and respecting are noticed for their greatness, righteousness and huge contributions and are considered role models for worthy human life, it would not reflect good on us IF we indulge in criticizing and defaming such a personality based on their personal life shortcomings. They too are mere humans and are bound to have flaws in some way or other.

Digging into their personal life and looking down upon them, laughing at them, exposing their flaws in their personal life in an exaggerated manner (as usually happens) as if we know the truth for sure etc..etc is totally unwarranted.

Stooping such low not gonna do anything good for any one except self ego massaging BUT only highlighting their remarkable contribution can, that can show right path to the future generation of humans.

Whoever it may be, Gandhi ji or Shri.Thayagaraja and the likes, theirs publicly exposed life and contribution is what we know for sure and that would be enough to propagate their greatness to help humans learn the fine qualities.

To know about complex human nature, that includes the negative side of humans, their shortcoming, weakness etc..etc..in this world of human survival, there are many many instances what we come across every day in and day out. That would be enough to understand who the mere humans are.

Let us not degrade eminent personalities like Shri Thyagaraja just because they are publicly exposed people and we have the mean mentality to find faults with them too like with any other x y z, so as to not to consider them eminent and superior.

 

[sangom]

First, Thyagaraja is a great composer, perhaps even the greatest Carnatic music composer. What I am going to say is about us, not about Thyagaraja. So, I request dear members not to think of this as casting aspersions upon the great composer and feel hurt.

Is it possible to enjoy, respect, and even adore the genius of our ancestors without deifying them, elevating them to the stratosphere and forbidding honest assessment of his/her life? We find equal geniuses in the west, like Mozart and Beethoven, their music is no less adored, but they are not worshipped. Their life stories are not beautified.

Newton is arguably the greatest scientist the world has seen yet, but his dalliances with alchemy is not swept under the rug. They even celebrate the greatest blunders of the greatest scientists, e.g. "Brilliant Blunders: From Darwin to Einstein - Colossal Mistakes by Great Scientists That Changed Our Understanding of Life and the Universe".

Why do we feel the urge to have only hagiographies and feel hurt with biographies? Gandhi's life comes to mind -- mention Mahatma's ugly side and the hammer of great soul will come down upon you before you have time to blink -- we saw that sometime back in this very forum.

This is not about Thyagaraja at all, it is about us, why must we be afraid to take a critical look at the life stories of our heros? What we find may not be picture perfect, but a nuanced understanding of their biographies can only benefit us by reminding us that our own shortcomings need not be an obstacle to do our best to excel.

Deifying them will take them away from us into the stratosphere. I feel by deifying Thyagaraja we lessen his genius -- i.e. his genius is not his but divine. Deifying him makes him a little less of a role model for the next Thyagaraja in the wings -- i.e. he is god and who am I to dream I can be like him.

Thyagaraja's personal failings, if there were any, only make him more endearing, more human, more like us than gods. There is nothing to feel hurt about that, I think.

Dear Shri Nara,

I see that we tend to look in the same way on this topic. I also agree that the musical compositions of Thyagaraja are non pareil and I adore many of them. But then that does not make me think that Thyagaraja, the person should also be venerated and eulogized without any other regard. (We have a Malayalam lyricist Vayalar Rama Varma who dies few years ago. He was a composer who has made some very great and endearing movie songs. But as a person he is almost always looked at as having been an alcoholic, one who neglected his family utterly, etc. In Kerala, people are able to perceive this difference. Since I have grown up in such a milieu, I think that it is quite OK to honestly write about the shortcomings of Thyagaraja, the man while, at the same time keeping my respects for his musical compositions.)

Again, even these people who adulate Thyagaraja so much, will not, I think dare to pronounce that Muthuswamy Dikshitar or Syama Sastri were composers of a lesser calibre! Hence, it is like our religion in which each deity is praised sky-high and as the Parabrahmam itself.

What I tried (and may still try to do) was to analyze the Man, Thyagaraja and some of his obvious failings or deficiencies. People who talk very well about women's equality etc., seem to completely forget what would have been the tragic life of the wifes of Thyagaraja, especially when we remember that the first wife died childless after 5 years of marriage and the second (sister of the first wife) had one son who died childless.

I again say, let us "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

 

[Raji Ram]

............. I will refer particularly refer to the kriti P(r)akkala NilabaDi wherein it is stated as follows:

cukkala rāyani geru momu gala
su-dati sītamma saumitri rāmunikiru - pakkala nilabaḍi kolice muccaṭa
bāga delpa rādā

1. It is clear that Thyagaraja goes on the basis that Seetha and Lakshmana are kind of permanently standing (hence, pakkala nilabaḍi) on either side of Rama; he just does not seem to have realized that if at all this was a "pose".

2. Thyagaraja describes the teeth of Sita, but has nothing to say about Lakshmana. Why at all should he describe only Sita?

Last, but not least, while people talk so high about Thyagaraja's "simple life" etc., they forget the travails and troubles to which his innocent wife would have been subjected to.

If a person understands a krithi in THIS WAY, it is not possible to debate with that person!

What all 'names' like 'BB' will Thyagaraja get in future is unknown to me! :sad:

 

[prasad1]

Is it TB trait, or human trait to find fault in people to whom we can even hold a candle. I do not find it common in day to day life, that people are so cynical. Here in TB site some people will cut everyone down to their own level, in the name of seeing critically.
For them you show the beauty of rose they only see the thorns, if you show the beautiful Lotus flower them see the muck it grows, if you show the beautiful full moon they only see the shadow.

[video=youtube;95UdAo4JdJI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95UdAo4JdJI[/video]

I have a feeling that people who are so bitter, that there is not enough sugar to sweeten them.

 

[sangom]

If a person understands a krithi in THIS WAY, it is not possible to debate with that person!

What all 'names' like 'BB' will Thyagaraja get in future is unknown to me! :sad:

As I said once before, Truth always hurts. And it hurts more when one has a hypocritical attitude to the matter, and a very bloated ego to boot. In simple Tamizh, we say உள்ளதைச் சொன்னால் நொள்ளாப்பு தைக்கும் among tabras here in Trivandrum.

FYKI, I am not interested in 'debate'. I only express my views.

 

[tbs]

hi
here we can see many hypocrats in this forum itself...no need to go outside....ORU PAANAI SOTTRUKKU ORU SORU PADHAM...

its tamizh proverb...its applicable here....