Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[Karur chandru]

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Hi every one,
It is true now a days brahmin girls are bold enough to marry NB boys. But it is far and few brahmin boys marrying NB girls, unless they are foreign countries, or in India they are very rich, fair and beautiful, and her parents give support to this marriage. Normally, brahmin guys' parents will not give their consent for such thing.
In respect of brahmin girls marrying other castes, there are so many factor that are prevailing in our society. 1)The girls' parents are economically very weak, and cannot get their daughters marry in right time. Generally such girls go outside their community and marry other castes, religion, or community or even other nationals(this happens mostly in foreign land).
2)In such cases, these girls are generally bread winner for her family(parents,brothers' and sisters, in some cases only mother living ) and these parents have no guts to tell their daughter the right way.In many cases the NB boys act to be very magnanimous and allow the girl continue to protect her parents' family for some years only.3. In the case of affulant family, the parents are responsible for her daughters' action, since they follow westernised lifestyle and do not care for hindu religion and traditions and give their gals freedom to select any one as their life parter.4) The present day medias strongly support love marriage rather than arranged marriage, and the worst is that in these medias love begins even at schools and colleges and flirting and going astray is not depicted as wrong deeds or sinful. Hence brahmin girls are enticed and fall pray to the lust of community guys who do not generally want to marry actually, but to enjoy the fruit for some time in the name of love. These things are very well seen in news papers. More over such crossing over of tradition or loving without the knowledge/acceptance of parents, paves the path for many crimes like desertion, murder, etc. These happen because in most cases such brahmin girls totally have lost the support of her parents and none to question the guy. 5. The co-education system provides ample opertunity for such acts.6) It is seen both parents are employed and go to office and absent at home for over 12 hours in a day and there is none to control or supervise the activities of their children and grown up sons & daughters. All these are some of the factors and it is the responsibility of every brahin parent to behave in a true brahmin like life style and also see that their wards are brought up in a true brahmin traditional life style.
Regards to all brothers,
Karur

 

[hoover]

sri Karur chadru,
your points are correct. I think they may be rounded off to the following
1. lame approach of parents towards icm and their girls
2. convictionlessness and deniel of identity as brahmin
3. materialistic thinking. If a nb s in law is feedign better then they feel no shame in sacrificing wisdom of forefather. i.e. parents are trading girls in return of material comferts and old age care.
4. acceptance of our community esp. cheerleaders of brahmin persecutions, supporters of compromised quality human resource, icm bussinessman. This acceptance is working as catalyst and encouragement for other girls.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri sangom sir, greetings!


Sangom sir, with due respects, what you have presented in the above paragraph is a caricature. You constructed a tall edifice all made out of straw, and in a grand finale, brought this straw man triumphantly crashing down.

Dear Shri Nara,
It is for the readers who happen to go through this thread, to judge. But I have to go by what my limited intelligence tells me.

When our children make a wrong choice, we all go through anxiety and grief. It does not matter whether the parent is Tambram living in India, Tambram living in the west, African-American, or Caucasian, or Chinese, or Japanese. Similarly it does not matter whether the mate our child chooses is NB, Dalit, African-Amrican, White, Chinese, Korean, or whatever. A bad choice is bad whether the boy is from the same sub-sect of a sub-sect of Brahmins, or, where it happens -- Vaduvoor or Charlotte.

The grief an African-American parent will feel if his/her daughter wishes to marry an unemployed African-American drug-addict is no less than the grief a Tambram parent will feel if their daughter wishes to marry an equally useless vagabond, B or NB. No sane person would advocate that the parents must, even in these cases, blissfully embrace the choice and let the heart rule.

This aspect has found very little treatment in this whole thread, and that is one of my observations. The trend of the posts have been to assume that tambram girls will generally make very appropriate and wise choices even if their love is for NBs and it is the conservative parents, who cling to the so-called brahminic ideas - which are outmoded - who are opposing these 'right' selections. As a result people like me who may not be intelligent enough to grasp the nuances fully, will get the impression that whereas this forum considers that the tambram parents as steeped in their orthodoxy and primitive notions, their daughters are naturally endowed with adequate intelligence to chose their lover - B, NB whoever - wisely. If only the above sentiments (ideas/aspects?) had been referred to also with equal emphasis, people like me would not have had anything to complain.

I am sure parents of a highly educated, successful vadama Iyer girl will oppose a boy who is a high school drop out with criminal tendencies and a load of family-unfriendly bad habits, even if he is another Vadama Iyer. Oppose the girls choice for all the valid reasons, try to persuade her, ask for help, I will stand with such a parent to try to extricate that girl from the ways of her heart at that moment.

As stated by me above this point went largely ignored.

... But, even in these cases, confrontational methods to dissuade the girl from the rule of her heart is unlikely to succeed. The situation must be handled with care, like removing fine clothing that has fallen on a thorny bush.

In the end, if our efforts are unsuccessful, this is the time to take a long view, to suppress the extreme anguish and grief we surely will feel, and show love and support, the kind of love and support I am talking about is something like, we are not happy with your decision, but we will support you and will be there for you if and when you need us. If her heart went for a truly despicable character, she will surely need our help sooner or later, and we must be within a stone's throw to cushion her fall and make her whole again. She, as well as us, deserves this gift of pure love.

Since usually girls make such choices against their parents' counsel, when they are already adults (and are eligible to vote also in many cases) I feel it should preferably be left to the parents concerned as to how they would like to deal with such a recalcitrant daughter, in case she comes weeping, back to them.

In summary, what we liberals are suggesting, cajoling, pleading -- not demanding, deriding, judging -- is for parents who unfortunately find themselves in this situation to not expect for an absolute power of veto -- under no circumstance heart must be allowed rule sans parental approval --, that is all. IMO, caste by itself is a flimsy reason to oppose love marriage.

Once again, in many posts it was only the point of "let the heart rule" which was again again emphasized; not this point viz., "under no circumstance heart must be allowed rule sans parental approval".

About the sway we liberals have had in this thread distorting reality, I must say, I have not seen a single posting addressed to an youngster to go out there and fall in love -- but first ascertain that it is NB you are falling in love with -- and then, come what may, go for it, love must triumph even if it means pushing your parents off a cliff. Further, whatever we have been arguing for has not gone unopposed. If anything, the push back has been quite intense and often irrational. Lot of people have contributed to this thread. It has gone through lots of twists and turns. Reading through the thread, it must be self-evident that we liberals have not had a free reign indoctrinating the young people.

I feel the liberals were a formidable force to be countered and the other side was either unprepared or was not equally internet savvy.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sangom asked -

By the word "urge" is commonly meant 'an instinctive impulse'. And you will agree that the humankind has been surviving right from the cavemen stage till now, more on the strength of the instinctive impulse for sex, than on any special skill learned for the purpose. (Though such skill has become available for learning in the recent times, I don't think the basic genetic influence has vanished nor can it be replaced.) In such a scenario, how do we accept your proposition that ""It may not be possible for virgins to have 'sexual urge'..." ? That is why I referred to the ceremony part. To put my doubt very bluntly, if a virgin (male or female) does not have sexual urge, meaning the basic instinctive impulse for sex, how can he or she acquire it as soon as the marriage is over? How will they consummate their marriage without this basic instinct?

Sri. Sangom Sir, greetings. When I said 'Sexual urge', I meant the boy or girl having only sex in their mind during the relationship. Sex is something 'the more one gets it, the more one wants it'. The desire for sex may not be that heavy for a virgin. But after wedding, the society grants them the 'license to sleep together'. at the end of the day, 'சொல்லி தெரிவதில்லை மன்மதக் கலை' anyway!

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sangom asked -

By the word "urge" is commonly meant 'an instinctive impulse'. And you will agree that the humankind has been surviving right from the cavemen stage till now, more on the strength of the instinctive impulse for sex, than on any special skill learned for the purpose. (Though such skill has become available for learning in the recent times, I don't think the basic genetic influence has vanished nor can it be replaced.) In such a scenario, how do we accept your proposition that ""It may not be possible for virgins to have 'sexual urge'..." ? That is why I referred to the ceremony part. To put my doubt very bluntly, if a virgin (male or female) does not have sexual urge, meaning the basic instinctive impulse for sex, how can he or she acquire it as soon as the marriage is over? How will they consummate their marriage without this basic instinct?

Sri. Sangom Sir, greetings. When I said 'Sexual urge', I meant the boy or girl having only sex in their mind during the relationship. Sex is something 'the more one gets it, the more one wants it'. The desire for sex may not be that heavy for a virgin. But after wedding, the society grants them the 'license to sleep together'. at the end of the day, 'சொல்லித் தெரிவதில்லை மன்மதக் கலை ' anyway!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sangom sir, greetings!

.... It is for the readers who happen to go through this thread, to judge.

Yes, this is fair.

As a result people like me who may not be intelligent enough to grasp the nuances fully, ...

You may underestimate your intelligence, but if others do, they do so at their own peril, I certainly don't.

...will get the impression that whereas this forum considers that the tambram parents as steeped in their orthodoxy and primitive notions, their daughters are naturally endowed with adequate intelligence to chose their lover - B, NB whoever - wisely. If only the above sentiments (ideas/aspects?) had been referred to also with equal emphasis, people like me would not have had anything to complain.

As stated by me above this point went largely ignored.

I have repeatedly started my comments with the word "if", and even carefully avoided including "when" to it. We make our points and counter points. If your observation about one aspect not sufficiently represented is true, it is now corrected. For pointing out this lack of balance which allowed us to correct the imbalance, I thank you.

Since usually girls make such choices against their parents' counsel, when they are already adults (and are eligible to vote also in many cases) I feel it should preferably be left to the parents concerned as to how they would like to deal with such a recalcitrant daughter, in case she comes weeping, back to them.

Yes of course, whatever our positions may be, the parents are the ones going to have to deal with it. But, I want to give my input, for whatever it is worth. If 100% of girls and boys are obedient and follow their parents guidance, that is great. But, if, only an if, there is a conflict, I hope the unfortunate parents will opt to love their children and not care about societies mores or their own hurt feelings, however legitimate those feelings are.

I feel the liberals were a formidable force to be countered and the other side was either unprepared or was not equally internet savvy.

If this is so, which I don't necessarily agree and I am sure I didn't play any part in it, then, surely, it is the force of the arguments and logic that make them so, not by merely being internet savvy. I don't think internet savvy could have anything to do with it, sorry. Also, as liberals, we only welcome counter arguments. If you felt a void and are filling it, so much the better.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

...Yes of course, whatever our positions may be, the parents are the ones going to have to deal with it. But, I want to give my input, for whatever it is worth. If 100% of girls and boys are obedient and follow their parents guidance, that is great. But, if, only an if, there is a conflict, I hope the unfortunate parents will opt to love their children and not care about societies mores or their own hurt feelings, however legitimate those feelings are.

Dear Shri Nara,

This is only a difference in viewing how to present the matter. As you might have seen from my recent posts and the counter posts to which you refer to (though I feel such posts were few and muted), there is a feeling that the tambram girls are taking unduly liberal attitude and ending up loving NB boys. It is also the case - at least as far I have known - that because of the legal position in India, the girls have the upper hand and the parents are helpless spectators. In such an atmosphere, an advice, however unimportant or figuring in one corner of a web site it may be, should not - in my considered opinion - contribute to an aggravation of this unsatisfactory trend if you seriously meant what you said when you said that "we liberals did not exhort the tambram girls to go love Nb boys" or something to the same effect. Even if we say or not say that the parents should stand by their daughter, accept her whole-heartedly, when she returns battered by experience, or the way I put it, ultimately it is forn the respective family to decide. So is it not desirable to desist from giving this sort of advice (your version) so that there is no inducement to girls, even if indirect? Of course you may have your views but can you not refrain from giving it out so that the girls do not come to think that it is the duty of the parents to give her succour, whatever she may do? This is one of the reasons I felt that the love marriage aspect was vigorously emphasized here. There is no point in referring to some "if" in some part of a sentence; we should also be able to see what sort of overall message gets conveyed ultimately. Remember Marc Antony's funeral oration over Caesar (For Brutus is an honourable man; So are they all; all honourable men)!

If this is so, which I don't necessarily agree and I am sure I didn't play any part in it, then, surely, it is the force of the arguments and logic that make them so, not by merely being internet savvy. I don't think internet savvy could have anything to do with it, sorry. Also, as liberals, we only welcome counter arguments. If you felt a void and are filling it, so much the better.

There was not much of logic; more of it was the glorification of love and a marketing strategy for love marriage as the most desirable and perfect way for the world. Since this appeals to the people and is considered fashionable and a mark of high civilization by the upper crusts in India also, the opposite side's arguments did not get projected. What i tried to mean by "internet-savvy" were two things: 1. There are many who will like to say the opposite but they may not know internet and things like that, and 2. Even those who have internet may have problems of language command, typing difficulties, etc., and so they may be viewing these pages but shying away from participation.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sangom, Marc Antony was trying to rile up a mass against an assassin. If that is what we are going, then that must be a good thing, isn't?

If you think we are indirectly encouraging girls to go out and fall in love, then I have to say, that is not what we are doing. There is enough encouragement for this in the social environment in Tamil Nadu. I have not seen many Tamil movies of late, or Tamil serials, but even from my college days, a time when I was under the impression that the very purpose of life was to see all the movies that the producers were not ashamed to release, Tamil and Hindi cinema extolled rl as the most wholesome thing ever. If TB girls must be protected from direct or indirect encouragement to go for forbidden love, then all TBs must immediately get rid of the TVs in their homes, and never see another cinema. IMO, you are giving us way too much credit when you say we may be indirectly inducing these girls.

Further, I don't agree that Tb girls going for NB boys is necessarily a bad thing, if the boy is a good boy, and caste is all that is standing in the way, I think that must not be prevented. If this is indirect inducement, that is mere speculation.

Similarly, to say that giving some advice to grieving parents to accept their girl who is unfortunate enough to get burnt in love marriage is indirect inducement, is also pure speculation.

If I am permitted the same freedom to speculate, is it not then possible that your idea of leaving it up to the parent, which is in its essence an acquiescence and approval if the decision of parents is to cast their girl away in the hour of her extreme need, may indirectly induce some parents in the future to do the same, even if the love marriage was with a known vagabond, but a Vadama Iyer from an impeccable family?

For an argument to be formidable, proper grammar, or ease with which one is able to type are immaterial, IMO. If the arguments presented were simple glorification of love and playing to the gallery, then they are not formidable arguments, but populist. But for even populist arguments to be persuasive it must have some logic.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom, Marc Antony was trying to rile up a mass against an assassin. If that is what we are going, then that must be a good thing, isn't?

The example I gave was for showing that what is said apparently can be one thing, but its effect may be another, even contrary. Here, if you feel the tambram girls' parents are some sort of assassins, then of course, what you are doing is probably correct!

If you think we are indirectly encouraging girls to go out and fall in love, then I have to say, that is not what we are doing. There is enough encouragement for this in the social environment in Tamil Nadu. I have not seen many Tamil movies of late, or Tamil serials, but even from my college days, a time when I was under the impression that the very purpose of life was to see all the movies that the producers were not ashamed to release, Tamil and Hindi cinema extolled rl as the most wholesome thing ever. If TB girls must be protected from direct or indirect encouragement to go for forbidden love, then all TBs must immediately get rid of the TVs in their homes, and never see another cinema. IMO, you are giving us way too much credit when you say we may be indirectly inducing these girls.

Yes, of course, I am giving you very great importance and credit. For example, a boy's friends may be smokers and may try to get him in their smoking group. But if the boy's father himself smokes, will it not be more probable that the boy gets easily into their club?

Further, I don't agree that Tb girls going for NB boys is necessarily a bad thing, if the boy is a good boy, and caste is all that is standing in the way, I think that must not be prevented. If this is indirect inducement, that is mere speculation.

You are now on different grounds. What was said was a different scenario, viz., the girl not heeding to her parents' counsel because they feel her choice is not wise, she goes ahead without their consent, has a bad experience and returns; nowhere was it said that the parents objected merely because of NB or something. Now you want your advice to stick and so you are changing the scene back to the "conservative tambram parents objecting to the girl's well-conceived icm", which seems to have become a sort of obsession. This attitude also gets reflected in the posts, incidentally.

Similarly, to say that giving some advice to grieving parents to accept their girl who is unfortunate enough to get burnt in love marriage is indirect inducement, is also pure speculation.

It is not. It will be inducement.

If I am permitted the same freedom to speculate, is it not then possible that your idea of leaving it up to the parent, which is in its essence an acquiescence and approval if the decision of parents is to cast their girl away in the hour of her extreme need, may indirectly induce some parents in the future to do the same, even if the love marriage was with a known vagabond, but a Vadama Iyer from an impeccable family?

Yes, if you want your advice to be applicable only in such and such cases only, specify it, otherwise not giving this gratuitous advice is not going to be a sin or crime. If inducing more and more tambram girls towards NB marriages is your aim, go ahead.

For an argument to be formidable, proper grammar, or ease with which one is able to type are immaterial, IMO. If the arguments presented were simple glorification of love and playing to the gallery, then they are not formidable arguments, but populist. But for even populist arguments to be persuasive it must have some logic.

Those were not formidable in the sense that it was merely extolling love and icms; but the liberal lobby was formidable in its attack, a formidable force I said, not a force supported by formidable logic, pl. note.

 

[Nara]

....Yes, of course, I am giving you very great importance and credit. For example, a boy's friends may be smokers and may try to get him in their smoking group. But if the boy's father himself smokes, will it not be more probable that the boy gets easily into their club?

Dear Shri sangom, You have yourself stated several times that you are not against icm. As per your definition this also can be viewed as inducement for TB girls to go for icm.

I just noticed that in a different thread you have made a disparaging comment about those of us who like to support icm. I can see that I am becoming quite tiresome for you. It is clear that we have a major disagreement. Respectfully, I would like to end the exchange with a agree-to-disagree kind of truce.

with best regards ....

 

[valli]

Hi everyone

This is the first time I am posting on this thread. I have been reading various posts on this site for a long time. I have been following this thread with particular interest due to my private life circumstances. I am really in awe with Mr.Nara and Mr. Kunjuppu and interested with HH. I have a lot to contribute to this thread which will not be well received with the conservatives in this thread!

Cheers
Valli (lady)

 

[drsundaram]

Hi everyone

This is the first time I am posting on this thread. I have been reading various posts on this site for a long time. I have been following this thread with particular interest due to my private life circumstances. I am really in awe with Mr.Nara and Mr. Kunjuppu and interested with HH. I have a lot to contribute to this thread which will not be well received with the conservatives in this thread!

Cheers
Valli (lady)

you are most welcome ms valli.This forum is indeed a encyclopedia where you will hear, learn and share lot many productive and constructive information. All the best

 

[valli]

Thank you Mr Sundaram

 

[Karur chandru]

hi Brahmani brothers and sisters,
The Institution of marriage in India is entirely different from that in other countries. I believe that chastity and virtue is taged to girls to be fit for normal marriage-arranged marriage? in India alone. In the Western countries etc, while male and female 'love first and then marry' principle is followed, in India, both male and female 'marry first and begin to love gradually till the end of their life'- This clarification was given by Mr.C.Rajagopalachari (ex Governor General of India) during his time to a foreign friend who raised doubt about the possibility of partners continuing for lifetime in India.We may call the institution of marriage in Hindu society is only through "arranged marriage",by parent of both side. (It is not known when this verification/comparing the compatibility of horoscopes of both came in to force?) In such cases the failure / marriage breakups are far and few, though one cannot say that all couple married in the above said manner are fully satisfied in their marriage.However, since the parents of both sides are interested in the welfare of their son/daughter, they interfere mostly (only if either of the partners complaint to his/her parents) and settle the differences between parters and if needed give medical correction/counseling. In love marriages, in which both parters belong to same sect or belong to brahmin community ( iyers/iyengars/languages/ different regions of India) the support of parents of both side are available. I have seen marriages of Iyers vs. Iyengars, telugu brahmin vs Tamil iyengars, telugu iyers vs orisa brahmin, tamil brahmin vs kerala brahmin, telugu brahmin vs Karnataka brahmin etc and they all live happily wiht their children. But when this love marriage happens between a brahmin girl vs NB boy, they lose the support of parents of both sides,(even NB boy side). The boy side consider this type of marriage an infra dig and condemns the girl gradually and coers the boy for marriage from their community. The girl, who already lost the support of her parent, does not know where to go and ends her life in misery. In case she has no option except to live as a second wife
( marriage Act are not enforced or in such influential communal matters for persons other than brahmins). Every body reads from news papers about husband deserting his wife, male lover cheating girl friend after imprignating her, husband killing his wife with the help of his paramour, etc. The society has improved very much in the matter of wife deserting her husband, living double life with or without the knowledge of her husband, killing her husband with the help of her paramour, and even killing her kids for the sake of her illegal love. I learnt from some of my NB friends that NB boys marry brahmin girls only to get fair colored children in their community and not interested in continuing them as life partner for lifetime and chuck out at some stage or other.They marry life time partners from their community for money, dignity etc. ( I hope such things do not happen in western countries or elsewhere.) Hence free love and inter caste love, have not elevated the society in India.Rather crimes have increased as said above which was not the case in olden days. Our brahmin girls must realise this situation and act wisely. Otherwise they will fall prey to the lust of others and they will throw away after enjoying the fruit.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear valli,

Thank you so much for your kind post. i am eagerly looking forward to your participation here. we do not have sufficient representation from your gender. welcome again to the forum.

i Would like to start off that I am not a proselytizer for ic marriages. What I say do not count, either for or against, but I hope that I am like that proverbial chettiar, who lays out all his wares for display, and let the customer chose what he/she wants.

Till this thread was initiated, I was aware of ic marriages in tambram community, but did not look at it as an issue. My relatives especially living outside of tamil nadu have seen a good percentage of their offspring married to locals – Brahmin or NB. It is something that I think they have accepted and today it does not even raise eyebrows and definitely not any tongues to wag.

i only wish to reiterate the strong winds of change that has been flowing into our community and one of its side effects – ic marriages that we are seeing now. The first norm is to limit to one or two offsprings, a change from a minimum 6 or more, just half a century ago. nobody then thought of the effect this would have on the available marriage pool 50 years hence.

Next the vast diaspora effect – not only many live away from tamil nadu but away from india as well. If our children in other parts wish to marry locals, then our children settled outside, appear only following a pattern re marrying locals. I don’t know if it is the norm anymore, for a son or daughter growing up in delhi or Mumbai, to automatically seek a mate via horoscope, in tamil nadu. This was the norm till 1970s (when I left india).

It has been the norm for Tambram girls to be in the workforce since 1960s, although in a subservient role. Today the daughters of those women, many of them, are high paying IT professionals, with a sense of fairness and entity, that was absent from their mothers, who just meekly transferred their paycheck from mother to mother in law.

To reinforce the IT revolution – we hae 22 year olds earning more than their parents (perhaps) and this has revolutionized the traditional subservient attitude not only of the girls but in many ways, that of the parents as well.

Well, are these changes not enough, to turn any community norms topsy turvy? Hopefully till now, I have been atleast fact based.

I come from a lower middle class with rich relatives (it is the worst situation) and this alone provided a good motivation stick for my parents to eschew poverty as a lifestyle alternative, however noble it may sound. The norm, ‘poor but happy’ was not a viable alternative for folks like my parents, and similar relatives, who pushed not only themselves but their children to the hilt, in the direction of upward mobilitiy.

Along the way, these folks also shed what they felt were traditions, which they viewed as burdens or irrelevant baggages. It is not upto anyone to remark on this, for each one in our community, I can safely say, has shed some traditions or others since 1947. what we may differ is the level to which it has been carried out.

Ic marriages along the way, is one phenomenon that raised its head in my family since 1959. the first one, was a widowed cousin, with a daughter, and a step mother who did not like her. She married a nair guy in her office, who loved her, and also promised to take care of the daughter. This was a good riddance of a problem for many in the family, but many like me, even at a young age, got exposed to ‘against the norms activity’ and learning to judge each act by its merits, and not blanket condemn an action because it violated someone’s sensitivities.

Today, I think, in the eyes of many here, the ic marriage has gone uncontrolled. There is a condemnation of the girls. The clarion call appears to be that this needs to be stopped, especially as it hurts the poor tambrams more. I do not understand this logic, and even if I shout out from the rooftops, what is going to happen, is going to happen.

I believe that any situation should be managed.MANAGE is a great word, for it implies not control, but a gathering of facts, and based on the situation coming to what is the best possible arrangement. There are no cookie cutter solutions across the board, and one can shout that they are opposed to ic marriages from all the roof tops and take out full page advertisements in the newspapers.

We can't turn back the clock with all the factors that was mentioned in the first part of this post. I think, let us understand the consequences and each of us come with our own solutions. Someone wants to banish their daughter, so be it. I think it is their loss. Others want to view it as an addition of a son to the family. So too be it.

However, it serves no purpose, to hurl epithets at other members, invoke our traditions for wrong ends, and above all raise the bogey of ‘dilution of blood’, whatever that means. All this does not do one iota of good, to understand the phenomena of ic marriages, especially if preferred by many of our girls.

To me the more heartwrenching side effect, is the remnants of our boys in their 40s who are staring ahead of a lonely single life, old age and above all (probably) a feeling of let down from their parents, who promised them a life mate, and asked the boys to trust them. it is the violation of that trust, by the parents, I suspect, has resulted in many of the violently targeted posts against folks like me.

I am only a messenger. I did not cause this phenomenon. In such cases, it is best not to shoot the messenger, but to get to the root of the issues and find quick succour here, for our boys. Don’t blame the girls. Blame the boys’ parents for sticking to paradigms that are no longer valid.

Thank you.

Ps. Rajaji appears to have forgotten the various lovers in our epics. What he was espousing was a time stamped tambram value of the early to mid 20th century, which his own daughter lakshmi violated when she married devadas Gandhi, son of the mahatma. We can always conveniently forget key facts, to emphasize a point or two, but unfortunately these do not just go away and disappear.

 

[hoover]

no taxation without representation.
no icm without equal opportunity.
icm with brahmin girls is bonus of reservations policy.

 

[happyhindu]

Hello Valli,

Thankyou for the note. Am not clear what you possibly meant by "interested with HH". Are you interested in having a conversation with me? If you do, i would suggest that the conversation be generic. It is not a good idea to mention private life circumstances on an open forum. And it does not matter in what manner the conservatives or the liberals view the notes. Because we never know what one is in their own personal life. I may appear liberal on some issues on a forum but it is quite possible that i am a traditionalist in private life on the same issues.

Regards.

Hi everyone

This is the first time I am posting on this thread. I have been reading various posts on this site for a long time. I have been following this thread with particular interest due to my private life circumstances. I am really in awe with Mr.Nara and Mr. Kunjuppu and interested with HH. I have a lot to contribute to this thread which will not be well received with the conservatives in this thread!

Cheers
Valli (lady)

 

[valli]

In todays world brahmin girls are confused/frustrated by the ever increasing hypocritic life style of most brahmin families (the same applies to some brahmin boys too). This makes them get attracted to the NB boy who 'puts his mouth where the money is'! It feels like a fresh breath of air for those girls who leave all the brahmin boys and marries a NB and these boys do care very well for her. They do have a successful marriage. It is not money that makes them attracted to those boys as someone presumed earlier in this thread.

And yes, most brahmin boys do lack in style. By style I don't mean having a great muscular body or fashion dressing. The style I mention is 'Self Confidence'! If brahmin boys develop their attitude/self confidence and change their hypocritic lifestyle maybe this issue of brahmin girls marrying outside can be lessend to some extent!

By the way I am not able to see what this brahmin thingy is all about being a brahmin myself. There is no true brahmin today except the temple priests and maybe the iyer who comes to do homam and Shraddam. (Recently I saw a teenaged boy of a brahmin priest with 'Mohawk' hairstyle and blonde dyed!) It is a pity to see these brahmin parents agonising over their son/daughter who married a beautiful PERSON and are not able to see beyond the caste factor. It is much more pitiful and shameful to see family, friends and brahmin society constantly gibing at those parents even after they have accepted their child who married a NB and are having good relationship! There was a solution given to stop/deter brahmin girls marry outside by castigating them! This will NOT deter those girls, but will infact prove them strongly how hypocritic brahmins are!

Cheers!

 

[valli]

Dear HH

I meant that I am interested with your views in this thread and also other threads.

It is not a good idea to mention private life circumstances on an open forum. And it does not matter in what manner the conservatives or the liberals view the notes. Because we never know what one is in their own personal life. I may appear liberal on some issues on a forum but it is quite possible that i am a traditionalist in private life on the same issues.

Good advice. Will heed to it. Thank you

Kind Regards
Valli

 

[happyhindu]

There is no true brahmin today except the temple priests and maybe the iyer who comes to do homam and Shraddam.

Dear Valli,

A small note -

As you may be aware, vedic religion is considered mostly non-idol-worship based (which is why arya samaj considers idol worship as non-vedic). Whereas agamic religion is idol-worship based.

It is possible that the temple priests were not considered brahmins in the past. There are quite a few possibilities that the vedic religion was in conflict with the agamic religion. Which is also possibly why Manu avoided temple priests from sacrifices to gods and manes:

Manusmrithi 3.152: Physicians, temple-priests ( देवलकान) , sellers of meat, and those who subsist by shop-keeping must be avoided at sacrifices offered to the gods and to the manes.

Regards.

 

[ganeshrev]

I am also a new bie like Valli, passively looking at the various posts by pro/opponents of icm.With mustered courage , I thought I will put my points of view.( Some times I am afraid of being misconstrued)

One thing, after reading the various posts and exchanges of sometimes what I think as harsh and unjust interpretation, intrigues me: those who vehemently oppose ICM repeatedly emphasisze that liberals like Shri Kunjuppu, Nara and Raghy promote "icm" where as all they say is "accept the inevitable" if it happens.

No Brahmin wants to "teach" or advocate their wards (I mean both Boys and Girls) to go for other community/caste as their kids.Supposing it happens, what do you want the parents to do?I foresee the following action points:

1. Advise the Daughter on practical difficulties of living with a person whose habits, customs, festivals, way of talk, hygiene are different from what she is used to.Peronally these factors matter a lot - Even Tanjore Iyer's way of living with respect to the habits, customs, festivals, way of talk are different from Kannadiga Smartha. I tell this due to my 17+ yrs in Bangalore.I will find it difficult to adjust to their practices.
2. Show some example where the day to day living is difficult due to point 1.
3. Ask them to give a cooling time to check if it is really unbearable for the girl to live without the boy and you give a time period to check if both the girl and boy are firm in their attachement.Engage the girl to take up higher studies or what ever the girl is interested in.
4.If after all these, if the girl is adament, accept gracefully- but ensure that the parents have put forth their points in terms of the risks and issues.There is no point in spending the rest of the life fighting and fuming which will happen if we nurture bad feelings! But I have to say that the conservative parents will feel bad and let down.

I live in Bangalore. I have a daughter who is being brought up in a conservative, simple way of life - I live with my inlaws - and she is 14 now.I cannot instill bad feelings/opinions about other caste to avoid her getting involved with some other community person.But what I can do and will do and trying to do is to teach her to respect elders, give an ear to her opinions, be friendly, make her learn to consider elder's advice in all matters which are important - Which I am sure will play a crucial part when she reaches marriagable age.

There had been 2 icms among my relatives circle.Both happened when the girls were 18 years old, both were not academically brilliant nor inclined to accomplish in any field , the parents always treated the girls as the one who is going to another family, both came home after marrying the boy they had selected at eighteen with out their parents having a clue on what was happening!. One is from upper middle class and other very normal economic background. Both parents could not do anything because the girls were married when they came to know and after passage of time, had to accept. Afterall, the girls were their only daughter for the respective parents and did not want to spend rest of their lives aloof, dejected and in pain. If the girls had conveyed their decision or their love affair earlier , parents could have tried points 1 -3 – which did not happen solely due to the way the parents brought up their girls.So they had to accept after a period of time.

Out of 2 icms I mentioned one is successful (one from normal economic back ground) and the boy is a good person – I feel this is by luck because at 18, the girl could not have been sure on her own – her intuition proved right and the other(upper middle class) is a disaster as narrated below:
There had been an icm 20 years back in our relative's circle in conservative Tanjore. The girl at 18 , selected a Kallar boy without education or an urge to come up in life through Hard work and the parents for whom she is the only daughter had to accept because she came home one day after marrying him. After some time the girls’ parents accepted him. The NB son -in law is living with the girl's parents and the girl's parents who were once wealthy - had to sell their house to provide money for the son in law's business and business has failed.(There was no money for girl’s parents medical care and the relatives bore the expense) . The girl is now jealous of her rich cousins - who were once poor- who have married compatible grooms who are well settled in life.The girl's father had retired as Chief Engineer and he comes from "Sri Vidya Upasaka" (Hope I spell it right) family!

( Now coming to Valli's points: not related to icm though- but I though should put forth my vies here reg this

There is no true brahmin today except the temple priests and maybe the iyer who comes to do homam and Shraddam. (Recently I saw a teenaged boy of a brahmin priest with 'Mohawk' hairstyle and blonde dyed!)

Cheers!

I do not find even the Vadhyars in Chennai City not swayed by today's materialistic world and other practices.Twelve years back, when I attended my cousin's marriage, all the Vadhayars were having breakfast of Masala Dosai with Onion before performing the marraige rituals - This was in Mylapore! I basically have lived in Trichy and Tanjore and have seen Vadhyars's exhibiting self contol and more dignified behaviour (which I basically think as Brahiminism - not just chanting Vedas, Mantras, wearing Ponool)

Also the way a poor and rich is treated by the Vadhyar's also has been disturbing to me personally.
)

I have more to add, but need to rush for my work - hence will add my points later.

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Revathi and Valli,

It is so nice to have you ladies participating.

Suppose you have a son who is 30+ unable to find a bride what would you suggest for him?

What the guy needs is a mate -- to raise a family with, to grow old with. Suppose he cannot find a tambram bride, what are the possible suggestions you would give him ?

Regards.

 

[wrongan]

All these threds were necessary only because the present day brahmins are living in thrisangu sorgam.They want to be recognised to be Brahmins in public but they are not satisfied with the way of his brhminical life .So to say they have no full faith in the traditions and rituals.Some want to follow as told by his parents with little or no involvement,second set follow out of fear that some bad luck would strike if we don"t follow ,another to show to his fellows that he is a brahmin.That is why we have different brahmins within ourself.When private ilfe is cocerned it depends on the indivduval's charector and the way in which he is brought up and has no connection to the caste to whigh he belongs.

 

[ganeshrev]

Dear Revathi and Valli,

It is so nice to have you ladies participating.

Suppose you have a son who is 30+ unable to find a bride what would you suggest for him?

What the guy needs is a mate -- to raise a family with, to grow old with. Suppose he cannot find a tambram bride, what are the possible suggestions you would give him ?

Regards.

I am not sure what I will do - An action out of desperation is hard to imagine in advance.

Based on the experience of the immediate relatives, this happens(not getting married in time) due to the following reasons:

1.Too many conditions from the Boy's side (Fair, Beautiful, Modern , Traditional, Educated "Professionally Qualified et al to name a few). I will ask my son to lower his expectations.
2.Too many conditions from Boy's Parents (Vaira Thodu, Grand Marriage).- In this case it will be me - I will not put these conditions
3.Knowingly or Unknowningly, the Boys side exhibit superiority in the processes of seeking the alliance(More of a social stigma than a caste stigma) .They think due to the boys' accompolishments, girls will fall on the boy's feet seeking his hand in marriage.Girls are not like those of yesteryears and the result is boys loose good alliances.So I will try to subdue my unconsicous superiority in whatever way I can.
4.I will also bring down the variables like Gothra, Horoscope etc.
5.If all this fails , I will ask him to check any girls in his known circle of friends in office or social gathering , whom he thinks as compatible (The mute question is why should this girl accept when so many girls are rejecting - without caste coming into picture)

Actually I have three immediate cousins - One is 41, one is 32, one is 30 and another who is our close friend's grandson who is thirty who are desperate to find thier companion for life and are unsuccessful for past so many years.

All of them are wealthy, accomplished, good family backgoround but do not do all our rituals like Sandhyavandhan.They are not ready to consider Inter Caste Marriage- But They are not lowering the expectations.(as in point 1 ).When my father suggested to look for girls from small towns with girls with lower economic status, he was rebuffed with

"Engalluku enna Korachal? Penna Pethavalluke evvolo Iruntha, Pillaya Pethavalluku evvalavu Irrukkum!"

One of them is in UK from his age of 7 and is very very good looking who is 41. I understand a lot of white girls proposed to him and he rejected because 1) He cannot adjust to the white girls' habits/customes though he is virtually British when he steps out of his house 2) He knows his parents will not accept- He revers his Mother too much who told him not to do any last rites if this happens.

His expectations have not come down - he is a graduate from cambridge and Harward MBA - he expects a good looking, Highly educated girl from his age of 30 and he is 41 now!

Thanks
Revathi

 

[hoover]

Sri Ganeshrev, I like your posting
Unrealistic demand and obstinate adherence to some of outdated things is the most important cause of late marriages of boys. But equally I am unable to find reason why a Cambridge Harvard learned person settled in UK is not getting the companion of his choice. Answer I think is because he is a Brahmin. If he would be any other he would get a wife much more than his expectations and with a good sum as dowry. Thanks to our Brahmin girls for bridging gap of male female numbers in other communities; the imbalance made by them due to female foeticide. The same Brahmin girls who teach human rights and right of self determination to their parents and society, work more hard, keeping mum and mutely accepting everything which their nb husbands impose on them.
Now Valli,
Didn’t those Brahmin girls belong to those ‘hypocrite lifestyle’ families or they are just alien creatures.
Please clear your concept of Brahmin family hypocrisy. And also clear how the fifty percent of Brahmin population is not equally responsible for that if it really exist.
Answer the question is it not responsibility of that fifty percent population also to counter the injustice against us which is purely an ethnic persecution. Is it just ethical to join hands with culprits when our side seems to be weak? when a ship starts sinking the mices are the first to abandon it; who are the main cause i.e. piercing the hull, of drawning the ship. after abandoning it they also face the same destiny though.
Please go through the various websites and learn what Brahmin girls are today manning all kind of high society endeavors which are just unethical. If they are having so much hatred and uneasy feeling for being a Brahmin then they should do the first thing before icm and it is leaving their parents and not watching their faces for life.
In this age of cutthroat competition with totally discriminatory rules against us, without any support from anyone including their ‘learned sisters who just deny everything including parents for icm’, mental pressure and desperations due to anti Brahmanism in every sphere of life; Brahmin boys have no time to groom themselves as per ever-changing whimsical demands of girls.
After reading these posts I am confirming one thing that Islam is most right in its treatment to women. They must be kept in limits unless they easily become instrumental in destruction of all common good.