Cry the Beloved Country

[Servall]

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Prasad # 47

Beautifully said Prasad!!

 

[prasad1]

Even for the 8%-10% Brahmins in India, there is about 30% of the total seats available to compete to follow "the Survival of the Fittest" Theory!

That is not true. 100% of the people have 30% of open seats. Was the oversight by accident?

 

[Yamaka]

I like Servall's post#45.
We have been out of TN for decades, and our of country for a long time. I do not follow most of the rituals, Just like Servell said we too follow our personal religion, no better or worse than anyone else. I do not have to barate anyone and I do not have to wait for anyone. We live in the present to the best of our ability, living within our limitations. We do not have to dominate anyone, but let me live my life.

Kunjuppu, I agree with your post in general, but I do not claim to be upholder of Hinduism, if one was appointed I would not follow him/her either. I follow my religion which happens to be a part of Sanatana Dharma, or Hinduism. I will explain my religion in diplomatic way to a foreigner. I will learn not to disparage the country, religions, cultures of my birth country.

I am not a fan of any organised religion. I have synthesized my views and my religion. All organised religions have a motive of getting more people in their fold. I do not subscribe to that. I admire Kabirpanthy in social settings, and feel comfortable in secular society.

In the philosophical/Intellectual war between the Reformists and the Traditionalists, the harder part is to deal with the Religious Supremacists...

This is true among Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus/Brahmins.

I estimate that about 40% of the total are Brahmin Supremacists, most are Traditionalist/Orthodox people... many of these people are very proud of what they have done to the Society, and are trying to re-write the settled History of India.. to assuage their perceived Supremacy.

That's the problem... and not the Religious Pragmatists.

More later.

 

[kunjuppu]

never heard of kabirpanthi before. had to look it up in wikipedia.

i know soooooooooooooooo little.. just a fleck of sand, while the ocean of knowledge lies undiscovered before me. it this was true for newton, truerer still for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir_panth

 

[Servall]

Oh Yamaka!!

and not the Religious Pragmatists like Servall.

You love packaging people with labels dont you!!!!?????

FYI, I never had to question myself with my own belief system, nor did I ever doubted my fundamental 'religious' beliefs... may be I am a living proof that religion has a place for pragmatists!!! But if you want to brand me that way, so be it!!!!

 

[Yamaka]

Hello Servall:

I have edited my post # 52. You can be whatever you want!

Peace.

 

[Yamaka]

That is not true. 100% of the people have 30% of open seats. Was the oversight by accident?

This issue has been fully debated in another Thread "Aarakshan - The Reservation Debate" here.

 

[Nara]

....I have been away from India 38 years now, and I am not any less Brahmin or any less Hindu and this belief to me is very personal and I don’t like anyone to tell me that all Brahmins out there are hypocrites!!!

Servall, your personal belief is your personal business, and what you like or don't like is entirely up to you. However, when you state your opinion in an open discussion forum then it is fair game. For example, if somebody says your views are hypocritical -- I am not necessarily saying this, only an example -- then it is unreasonable to just say "I don't like it".

BTW, do you mind explaining what you mean by saying "I have been away from India 38 years now, and I am not any less Brahmin".

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Labels are just for sticking on the envelope. Every word has a meaning depending on the dictionary you use. If I am born brahmin, I can claim to be a brahmin. If I am an engineer working with my hand, I can be a shudra. If I have become a businessman then I can claim to be a Vaisya. If I enroll in the armed services to protect my country I can claim to be shatriya. This verna division may not get you vote or a reserve a seat in a collage. This verna is not by birth but by gunas of the individual. Use of caste to get political favor is social norm, not religious. People in religious or social positions have used caste for their own needs.

Chapter 4 Gita: Krishna says

Text 13​

catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah

​

Translation

According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me.

The emphasis is on guna (aptitude) and karma (function/action) and not on jaati (birth/ upbringing). A varna is determined by temperament and vocation - not by birth or heredity.

Guna Karma vibhagashu: divided according to the gunas and actions.
The centre for all our actions (karma) is “the mind.” The mind is the seat of three basic qualities (gunas) of “Satva, Rajas and Tamas.” All the three qualities are inherent in every individual but their proportion expressed outwardly as actions differs from individual to individual. The actions expressed according to the gunas is “Guna karma.” The division of such actions is “Guna karma Vibhagashu”.
Broadly speaking, in any single society, the individuals can be divided into four main groups depending upon the proportion in expressing outwardly the three basic gunas in the form of actions. “Chaturvarna” refers to the four groups of individuals in any society.

I dont bother much with caste and I dont bother much about where an observer will place me. But its not so much about where someone will place me as it is about society in totality. Are the wise and noble really in charge in society? Or is it those driven by desire and ignorance ? That is an important question.

 

[prasad1]

never heard of kabirpanthi before. had to look it up in wikipedia.

i know soooooooooooooooo little.. just a fleck of sand, while the ocean of knowledge lies undiscovered before me. it this was true for newton, truerer still for me.

Kabir panth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kabir Philosophy
Kabir's poetry is a reflection of his philosophy about life. His writings were mainly based on the concept of reincarnation and karma. Kabir's philosophy about life was very clear-cut. He believed in living life in a very simplistic manner. He had a strong faith in the concept of oneness of God. He advocated the notion of Koi bole Ram Ram Koi Khudai.... The basic idea was to spread the message that whether you chant the name of Hindu God or Muslim God, the fact is that there is only one God.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Kabir

"(born 1440, Varanasi, Jaunpur, India — died 1518, Maghar) Indian mystic and poet. A weaver who lived in Benares, he preached the essential oneness of all religions and was critical of both Hinduism and Islam for meaningless rites and mindless repetition. From Hinduism he accepted the ideas of reincarnation and the law of karma but rejected idolatry, asceticism, and the caste system. From Islam he accepted the idea of one God and the equality of all men. Revered by both Hindus and Muslims, he is also considered a forerunner of Sikhism, and some of his poetry was incorporated into the Adi Granth. His ideas led to the founding of several sects, including the Kabir Panth, which regards Kabir as its principal guru."

 

[Nara]

A varna is determined by temperament and vocation - not by birth or heredity.

This horse has been flogged early and often.

The views of the most revered of Acharyas of our times:

"It is jatidharma that goes to make the inner guna (inner quality or nature) of an individual. So Sri Krsna's dictum in the Gita that the caturvana division is in accord with the gunas and the idea that the caste is based on birth are one and the same."
​

 

[Servall]

Mr. Nara:

Servall, your personal belief is your personal business, and what you like or don't like is entirely up to you. However, when you state your opinion in an open discussion forum then it is fair game. For example, if somebody says your views are hypocritical -- I am not necessarily saying this, only an example -- then it is unreasonable to just say "I don't like it".

BTW, do you mind explaining what you mean by saying "I have been away from India 38 years now, and I am not any less Brahmin".

There were some heated threads elsewhere on this forum whether brahmins who have crossed the oceans are considered brahmins anymore!! My statement was related to this. I know many of my relatives living in India, as much as they wish they could be more religious, are constrained by myriads of travails of life...just the daily routines that prevents them from going to temples, follow rituals; do the appropriate ceremonies etc. Personally, being where I am today, I am privileged that there are so many temples in my neighbourhood that I can visit everyday; there are qualified priests that conduct pujas and rituals; I participate in traditional ceremonies like avani avittam; I attend satsangs and bhajans; I am able to attend classes relating to scriptures, vedhas and discourses; I can learn rudram; when I read my scriptures, can disseminate what is moral and practical for me; I dont have to follow what I dont consider not appropriate 'for me', above all, particiapte in community volunteer work that many of my relatives arent able to. Do all these make me a better or bad brahmin, it does not really matter to me; as Prasad aptly said:

We have been out of TN for decades, and our of country for a long time. I do not follow most of the rituals, Just like Servell said we too follow our personal [COLOR=#da7911! important][COLOR=#da7911! important]religion[/COLOR][/COLOR], no better or worse than anyone else. I do not have to barate anyone and I do not have to wait for anyone. We live in the present to the best of our ability, living within our limitations. We do not have to dominate anyone, but let me live my [COLOR=#da7911! important][COLOR=#da7911! important]life[/COLOR][/COLOR].

Mr. Nara: Of course it is a fair game to debate issues; but what is the point of debating today the atrocities committed by a few brahmin fanatics in 1890, that may have included my fore-fathers and yours; when are we going to break away from the shackles of the past; the injustices created by the other religions, christians, muslims, and countries like Britain to India, Germans to Jews are very sad and every rational human I am sure will regret each of those acts. I used to moon light for an Indian company owned by brahmins years ago as a bachelor and I vividly remember the management allocating a room for the muslim brothers to pray in peace; do you think this would have happened in 1890?

I am an eternal optimist and say my half cup is half full; let us not keep saying it is half empty. I just want people to respect each other for what we are and not for what my personal beliefs are. In as much as I respect your belief that you choose to be free of religion and God, I need to be respected that I am a firm believer and religious and not be berated for what I stand for. I am sure many of the members in the Tamil Brahmin forum are religions and believe in God, except they may not see it worth their while to comment since this type of debate does not add any value to our well being.

Is that fair game?

Peace!!

 

[Nara]

Servall, thanks for taking the trouble to give me your answer, much appreciated.

.... Do all these make me a better or bad brahmin, it does not really matter to me;

I think you have misunderstood the comment by Sangom (I think?). The issue being commented on is the ease with which inconvenient rules are flouted and yet the Brahmin identity, which is nothing more than a caste identity, is valued.

but what is the point of debating today the atrocities committed by a few brahmin fanatics in 1890, that may have included my fore-fathers and yours; when are we going to break away from the shackles of the past;

Well, how long, as long as there is somebody protesting "how long" it is not long enough.

Glib one-liner aside, I would suggest it would be long enough when people stop showing blanket reverence to religious institutions that openly assert Dharmashasthras as supreme and inerrant, and demand reformation. It would be long enough when people are not segregated on the basis caste for no valid reason but ritual purity. It would be long enough when questions like these are taken seriously and addressed by Brahmins themselves.

In as much as I respect your belief that you choose to be free of religion and God, I need to be respected that I am a firm believer and religious and not be berated for what I stand for.

If you review the posts made in this forum you will find that it is those who express no faith in god and religion that are routinely berated, called names, shown the finger, etc.

Leaving that aside, I don't know what you mean by you need to be respected as a believer. For example, I have said that religion makes otherwise good people do bad things, would that be berating you? I have said belief in god is delusional, would that be disrespectful to you as a believer?

I demand nothing short of mutual respect among all of us individuals. I also respect your right to believe in whatever you want, but I just can't accept that merely offering criticism of ideas that you value, but I consider irrational and/or harmful, is being disrespectful to you.

I am sure many of the members in the Tamil Brahmin forum are religions and believe in God, except they may not see it worth their while to comment since this type of debate does not add any value to our well being.

Is that fair game?

Whether to participate in a discussion or not is up to them. Why they decide to participate or stay away is for them to know. If it is unfair and if it is important enough then they need to participate. If they opt not to participate then they forfeit their right to complain it is unfair.

Peace!!

Peace and love .....

 

[ShivKC]

I have said belief in god is delusional, would that be disrespectful to you as a believer?
.....

these kind of arguments may sound non-offensive as long as the world takes similar ones with the same taste.

for eg, like belief in god, a similar situation is set around for one's belief towards his father. many of them have not gone to take a DNA test to prove who his father was, and it was all set by the faith system, constructed and delivered to the children by the mother.


now, one can go on and rephrase the question slightly, like

" I have said, belief in your father being a biological father is delusional, would that be disrespectful to you, as a loving son to your father!!. it can stretch further, pls,dont get offended,prove it with dna test, till such time, i can continue call you as a fatherless child (b'td), as its my right..


the right of other person is only up to the other persons nose, and cannot be extended up to his hearts! these kind of posts only aggravates participants.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

To My Dear Younger Generation:

What you read in this and other Threads here is just the generational struggle between the Reformists and the Traditionalists / Orthodoxy.

All societies / communities undergo Reformation.. Jews, Christians and Muslims take this PROCESS very seriously.. This is nothing but Introspection and Cleaning the Conscience.

What bothers the Traditionalists & Orthodoxy is the guts and spine of the Reformists who can dive deep into the psyche and ask very fundamental questions like

Who were the Architects of the Oppressive Caste Hierarchy in India?

The answer is crystal clear - the Vedam reading Sanskrit speaking Brahimins of the past!

This is the issue we are debating here.

Don't worry about this warfare - these things are inevitable - Reformists will launch a forward march no matter what the Traditionalists & Orthodoxy dream to achieve by denying the past!

More later...

If one has "introspection and cleaning the conscience", one would not blame "the Vedam reading Sanskrit speaking Brahimins of the past" and would attack who is at fault today. Even to accept for argument sake that Bs started to be "anti-Dalit", no one forced other castes to follow suit.

 

[prasad1]

Shiv post#63.
Well said, but be careful it is borderline. LOL

Haridas, post#64 Good argument.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raju & Co:
Fine.. you have decided to pretend that you are all sleeping...you want me to wake you all up! It won't work...You all have decided to re-write known History.

Dear Yamaka,

You are conveniently skirting the issue. The issue is that the socalled known history is a cock and bull story told and lapped up and promoted by interested sections of the society. If you want to close your eyes to this fact it is fine with us. we understand your compulsions.

Many of you have cried for several decades now about the Reservation policy of India - Constitution has given orders to implement it to "set the playing fields right".
Why?

Yes the constitution of India when it was first written it correctly identified the need to 'set the playing fields right'.
But later reservation was used used as a freebie to garner and retain caste based vote banks. Can you deny this? What was the need to add more and more castes to the list eligible for reservation? That was the biggest political fraud perpetrated on the country.

If Brahmins were not the perpetrators of the Caste Hierarchy, why Brahmins feel "punished" by the Quota/Reservation in colleges & jobs in the Gov't?
Why some of you ask, "Well our forefathers did all this... why do you want to punish us today?"

Brahmins were not the perpetrators of casteism. Brahmins do not feel punished by reservation per se. They feel angry by the fraud that is being perpetrated. We do ask "even if our forefathers did all this where is the logic in punishing this generation? This is without admitting that our forefathers committed any atrocities. Please do not twist words and sentences.

Clearly, here I am going over things that most people in the Forum don't like because of the "unpleasant past"... I am forced to do this - at the risk of being called as Brahmin Basher, which I am not -because of the hell-bent nature of the Traditionalists who want to rewrite the History.

We have no unpleasant past. rather we understand your need to make it unpleasant. We do not want to rewrite your 'history'. It is your history handed down by vested interests. We have nothing to do with that nonsense.

My personal view of the Reservation Policy is
It must be continued till the last of the Dalits and the Backward communities want a place in higher education and in Gov't jobs is given that opportunity.. However, I strongly oppose the "Creamy Layers" abusing this PolicyThis could take as long as 500 years... how could you bring parity sooner for a malpractice started at least 2000 years ago?
The upper castes need to wait that long to see the Reservation Policy to go.....

Reservation policy for dalits should continue as long as they want it, as long as they do not feel comfortable living with the casteist thevars, mudalis, chettys, gounders, yadavs, kurmis, pillais etcc... The reservation to all other castes( who are the perpetrators of the casteism and are the tormentors of the dalits, the politically, numerically etc powerful castes who have hijacked our constitution) is just a fraud and needs to be dumped. There can not be any creamy layer in respect of dalits.

Simply, this Reservation Policy is the Constitutionally mandated antidote for the Casteism perpetrated by Brahmins of the past

.

any number of times you may keep saying that brahmins perpetrated casteism, you are revealing only your ignorance of the issue and your hatred for brahmins. Reservation policy for dalits is the constitutionally mandated antidote for the injustice done to dalits by the rest of the hindu society in the past. That reservation when extended to yadavs, kurmis, pillais, reddys, thevars etc it becomes a cruel joke because the perpetrators of atrocities come to enjoy reservation.

This can happen only in India. That is why I say: Cry the Beloved country.

Cheers

 

[prasad1]

Raju post#67,
Congratulation for the beautifully written piece.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Further to post 11 by Nara responded by Kaalabhairavan in post 14, I want to raise a few questions:

1. If the design was faulty, why still stick to the same auto maker? After all it is not monopoly. Does it mean that others are not capable of designing automobile?

2. How does “defective” automaker manage to be in the business? In fact, his product seems to be doing good exports to all over the world.

3. If the driver is so fed up with faulty designs, why not choose other modes of transport? There are “special zones” created for other “auto makers” – 69% in all in some places.

4. Even after making the accidents, why does the Govt. still allow driving by these drivers? Some governments have laid out “special testing grounds” where “designers” are not even given a trial driving.

5. The drivers are making accidents. And they still continue to drive. That means, they are not bothered about their own safety or that of other road users. Their only motive is to keep blaming the “designer”. Well. They know the designer is not going to sue them. His business is designing and not disputing.

6. Any driver with “introspection and conscience” would not blame the “journal reading, technology speaking designers (of the past)”. But would instead correct his driving skills and would expect the Govt. to provide better infrastructure.

7. Quite interestingly, some drivers claim to launch a “forward march no matter what the Traditionalists & Orthodoxy dream to achieve by denying the past!”. By launching a “forward march”, have they decided to rather walk? Do they know the distance?

8. The designers are not afraid of the “guts and spine of the motorists who can d®ive deep into the psyche”. They indeed welcome such motorists. They actually wonder why the motorists do not ask very fundamental questions and instead keep blaming designs.

9. Since the design maker is honest, he has come of age and is producing state of the art automobiles now. But some motorists cannot appreciate the quality or should I say they refuse to appreciate?

10. Last but not the least, the designer never claimed proprietary rights to designing. Others tried to emulate him but were not that successful. One "automaker" even called the designs of the old automaker as "barbaric" and he led series of "anti-designer actions". But a large number of genuine motorists found his claims to be spurious and they still keep driving the original design.

 

[Nara]

.... But a large number of genuine motorists found his claims to be spurious and they still keep driving the original design.

Siva, all this is fine, we can debate this point by point and neither of us will give an inch. But one thing is undeniable, most revered Brahminical Mathams tout Dharmashasthras as supreme and inerrant, and most Brahmins show utmost reverence to these institutions and the Acharyas who head these institutions, so much so, any criticism of them is seen as intolerable offense.

What I reject is putting the entire blame on others, as the OP does, not that others are blame-free. Just washing one's hands of their responsibility altogether is also dangerous, the monster they let lose will come back and gobble them up.

This is why I think these Brahminical institutions and their Acharyas must take the lead to reform the social system. The first step for this to happen is to recognize their responsibility. Ordinary Brahmins must demand this. They should stop blind reverence to Acharyas just because they occupy the top post. They must demand reform of the Dharmashasthra code, what is there to lose, nobody follows most of it anyway, so why tout it as sublime and inerrant, and not a single syllable can be changed, why?

Until Brahmins themselves exorcize their ideology of this poison, they cannot simply say it is all the fault of dominant NBs, and put on a இந்த பூனையும் பால் குடிக்குமா garb and proclaim they are peace-loving, non-violent, god-fearing folks.

As I said earlier, you Brahmins need to demand reform, and if it does not come, stop your patronage, stop funding them, stop supporting them. If your voice is not heard, then jettison the Brahmin identity.

If you don't do any of this, and further, continue to support those who insist Dharmasashatra codes are inviolable, then, at least show some rectitude and say you stand by these codes, don't try to have it both ways.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Siva, all this is fine, we can debate this point by point and neither of us will give an inch. But one thing is undeniable, most revered Brahminical Mathams tout Dharmashasthras as supreme and inerrant, and most Brahmins show utmost reverence to these institutions and the Acharyas who head these institutions, so much so, any criticism of them is seen as intolerable offense.
What I reject is putting the entire blame on others, as the OP does, not that others are blame-free. Just washing one's hands of their responsibility altogether is also dangerous, the monster they let lose will come back and gobble them up.
This is why I think these Brahminical institutions and their Acharyas must take the lead to reform the social system. The first step for this to happen is to recognize their responsibility. Ordinary Brahmins must demand this. They should stop blind reverence to Acharyas just because they occupy the top post. They must demand reform of the Dharmashasthra code, what is there to lose, nobody follows most of it anyway, so why tout it as sublime and inerrant, and not a single syllable can be changed, why?
Until Brahmins themselves exorcize their ideology of this poison, they cannot simply say it is all the fault of dominant NBs, and put on a இந்த பூனையும் பால் குடிக்குமா garb and proclaim they are peace-loving, non-violent, god-fearing folks.
As I said earlier, you Brahmins need to demand reform, and if it does not come, stop your patronage, stop funding them, stop supporting them. If your voice is not heard, then jettison the Brahmin identity.
If you don't do any of this, and further, continue to support those who insist Dharmasashatra codes are inviolable, then, at least show some rectitude and say you stand by these codes, don't try to have it both ways.

This post puts forward these key arguments. The counters to these arguments are given in italics.

1.Entire blame is put by brahmins on other numerically superior middle castes. By doing that brahmins are washing their hands of their responsibility altogether. This is dangerous because the moster they have let lose will come back and gobble them up.

Brahmins have repeatedly said that they were part of the majority which did the injustice to the small minority of dalits. What they do not accept is the entire blame for the atrocities which is heaped at their door. The intellectual warriors are not ready to accept this and there lies the problem. If they accept this then we will have to naturally move to the next step-that of joining together with brahmins and compensating the injustice and atrocites done to the dalits. This is what is sensible and eminently reasonable. This is what our forefathers did when they framed the constitution of the republic. They built in a provision to compensate the dalits by bringing in the concept of reservation. The original constitution as adopted by the first constituent assembly of India had reservation only for dalits. The only other positive action of the combined hindu majority(including brahmins) was the Act called the வன்கொடுமை சட்டம் which prohibits calling dalits by their caste names. The rest of the amendments to the constitution to include other powerful numerically superior middle caste agglomerate was all dirty politics played out by the middle caste aggregate which is shameful. Blame should be apportioned in proportion to the share of population which indulged in the atrocities. I think this is a reasonable demand. So much about brahmins washing their hands of.

Now as for the monster, brahmins have no fear whatsoever because the monster was not created by them alone in the past. They have cut off their connection with it once for all and they know how to handle it if it comes to them ever. It is the majority of the middle castes who sustain the monster, nurture it and are likely to be gobbled up ultimately.

2. Brahminical Institutions and Acharyas must take the lead to reform the social system. First they have to recognise this responsibility. The common brahmin should demand this from the Acharyas. They should demand for a rewriting of the Dharmashastra codes. Any way most of the code is not followed. So why not demand a redrafting?

I would suggest the intellectuals brigade to first understand that the Acharyas who are heading the brahmin institutions are not known outside the circle of some of their followers. They are not even known by all the brahmins following that particular sampradhayam. This being the case, no one who is really serious would suggest as this post suggests. Even if we persuade the acharyas to take steps for the reformation of the society, they will simply be ignored by the majority of the NB hindus. The acharyas do not have the kind of hold that is needed to take bold reformatory measures and make them work. A better alternative will be to leave them alone and the hindu society should throw up leadership which will take reformatory steps to include dalits in the inclusive development of the society. But the middle caste agglomerate is so selfish and is so sure about its ability to carry the day that it never really bothers about any substantial reform.

To put it in simple terms in a few words, brahmin acharyas do not have the clout to issue a fatwa and make it work by declaring the violators tankhaiah. Being bashed brahmins they do not have jihadis who will go after violaters to cut and bring their heads. And finally, as the dharmashastra codes are there only in book why bother about them?

3. Brahmins should exorcise their ideology of the poison of casteism and until then they cannot say it is the fault of the dominent NBs and claim to be non-violent, God-fearing, peace loving people.

God-fearing is not discussed here for obvious reasons (because the post is by an atheist who has no locus standi). Majority of the brahmins have the right to claim that they are god fearing. Period. They are non violent and peaceloving too. There is not a single instance in which brahmins have participated in violence against dalits. It is the fault of the dominent NBs without an iota of doubt. It is they who invented the discriminatory casteism and it is they who sustain it till date. So a major effort to change has to come from them.

4. Brahmins need to demand reform, and if it does not come, stop their patronage, stop funding the religious institutions, stop supporting them. If their voice is not heard, then they should jettison the Brahmin identity.

Brahmins are reformed already. If they stop their patronage and funding and support to the ancient religious institutions nothing tangible will be gained. To give up their brahmin identity what should they do? Drop the tag iyer/Iyengar/Rao and add thevar? Or start eating pork with a vengeance? How childish to make such demands on brahmins!!

5. If Brahmins don't do any of this, and further, continue to support those who insist Dharmasashatra codes are inviolable, then, at least they should show some rectitude and say that they stand by these codes, without trying to have it both ways.

A Brahmin is first a human being. He will do what he thinks is right and good for him and good for the society in which he lives. If Dharmashashtra codes are seen by an individual as inviolable truth he will follow them. It does not lie with others, least of all with enemies of brahmins, to preach about what to do and what not to do. Even if they do, as is done here, it will be taken on its worth/value and accepted or rejected.

 

[Nara]

...Brahmins have repeatedly said

Raju, you can't speak for all Brahmins, all you could say is, you have repeatedly said, not Brahmins have repeatedly said. There are many who reject the very idea that the Varna system has caused any injury to anybody.

.., as the dharmashastra codes are there only in book why bother about them?

Precisely, why then this extreme reverence to these (a)dharmashasthras? Why can't they be repudiated. Why?

Raju, you seemed to be committed to the idea that caste problem is purely that of middle-castes and the Brahmins have already reformed, nothing more to be done, case closed. This may help you reconcile what you see as wrong and your fidelity to the Brahmin caste. But reality is more complex.

BTW, if you take the middle-castes one would find that most of them are poor, they show allegiance to their caste overlords because they are dependent on them, and they have caste affinity towards them due to the jAti-system, a variant of the Varna of Brahminism -- if you don't know what this term means just google it. In most cases, the middle-caste foot-soldiers, say poor Vanniyars, doing the actual fighting are no better off than the Dalits they fight against -- in many ways have more in common with them than their caste overlords. Yet they throw their lot with the rich who throw some bones to them and treat them only marginally better than a dalit. This is because of the ingrained hierarchical Brahminical jAti consciousness.

In any case, this is not about the middle-castes -- I sincerely hope they find their reformers and get out of the grip of their exploiters -- it is about what Brahmins have done and can do for themselves and others. Unfortunately, contrary to what you often say, Brahmins are not a reformed lot. In their secular life they have been emaciated, they can't exert the same haughtiness like they once did. This is not reform, this is reality setting in.

In religious life they still impose their strict codes. The dharmashasthras are still revered, praised as ideal code to live by, every word in it is supposed to be inerrant. The Brahminical Acharyas declare that not a singe syllable can be changed, the same acharyas are most revered by the Brahmins. This is what I am talking about. The Brahmins can't bring themselves to even change a single word, this shows there is lot to be done before claiming they are already all reformed.

The poor among the middle-castes are bad, but how much better are the Brahmins and their friends among rich middle-castes? The middle-castes perpetrate physical violence against Dalit, and, these days, with Dalits increasingly asserting their natural rights, they suffer some violence in return as well, both violence I condemn. However, the kind of violence Brahmins visit upon everyone NB, not just Dalits, is no less painful and damaging. Here it is relevant to note Thiruvalluvar's நாவினால் சுட்ட வடு. This is the kind of violence Brahmins perpetrate upon not just Dalits. It saps the last drop of self respect and human dignity from these hapless people for no fault of theirs except birth. The damage from this kind of violence is long lasting and permanent.

The Brahminical acharyas need not go to NB castes and preach to them about caste, they will be chased out laughing. The first step is to cleanup their own household before issuing any kind of fatwa, which they cannot issue anyway. Let the Brahmin Acharyas repudiate their (a)dharmashasthras, the one they don't follow anyway. Let them treat all human beings equally in their religious institutions. Let them set an example for other to follow. After earning a reputation for having achieved true reform, then they can start advising other caste people.

Cheers!

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Friends, Domination of Brahmins was natural decades back, because they owned large junk of lands & other caste people did not grudge. farm labor were looked after very well by the Brahmin Land lords, in that their families never felt hunger, even financial help & other requirements were taken care for marriages held in those families. This situation prevailed , till the law was enforced to allow the tillers as owners of lands. Rajaji pioleted the law.
Slowly all the so called Lands belonging to Brahmins, were taken away, even forcibly by the tenents, who were emboldened by cast Hindus to raise against Brahmins in Fifties/ Sixties. Slowly the Brahmin families shifted to towns/ cities & ensured that the children study well & find jobs, to run the families which had no landed properties. Now, not only villages are deserted of Brahmins. Even temples are short of Archakas?
I want to stress that Brahmins , never, ever dominated Dalits, but they had virtually helped for their uplift. , including bold temple entry of dalits lead by Brahmins like Madurai Vaidyanatha Iyer & Dr. TSS Rajan of Trichy.. We are God-fearing, meek & hence we criticize ourselves, feeling inferiority, whereas in this Computer age, we can rightly feel proud, because of our sons/ daughters who lead an honourable life, wherever they may live & mix with all castes , simultaneouly maintaining our exclusive identity.
One more thing When the Dravidian rule became the norm for Tamil Nadu, Brahmin Boys stopped appearing for I.A. S because as a ciase, we cannot bear insults/ corruption etc.
Let us desist from condemning our community any more. Let bus show our Unity, Co-operatin in forming such useful Forums to enlist the less fortunate Boys/ Girls in lesser towns/ Villages & direct all the energy to reach the pinnacle .
A.Srinivasan (rishikesan ) for the Forum

 

[Nara]

.... farm labor were looked after very well by the Brahmin Land lords, in that their families never felt hunger, even financial help & other requirements were taken care for marriages held in those families.

Well, this reveals paternalistic/feudalistic thinking. Glad it is discredited and is anachronistic.

including bold temple entry of dalits lead by Brahmins like Madurai Vaidyanatha Iyer & Dr. TSS Rajan of Trichy.

Isolated actions of few individuals that went against the root principles of Brahminism is not evidence of a fundamental change in the way of thinking of those who hold Brahmanism highly. The litmus test, if there is any, is to ask what the Dalits think of Brahmins and Brahminism. For all the violence perpetrated by the middle-castes, a violence we all must condemn with all the force we can muster, ask the Dalits if you care and you will find they reject Brahminism no less, if not more.

It is disappointing that the Brahmnists have to go back 50 years to find a Vaidyanatha Iyer to co-opt, neglecting at the same time that their revered Mathams, and the acharyas they revere, condemn what V. Iyer stood for.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Nara’s arguments in post #72: the counters are below every passage within quotes:

Raju, you can't speak for all Brahmins, all you could say is, you have repeatedly said, not Brahmins have repeatedly said. There are many who reject the very idea that the Varna system has caused any injury to anybody.

(1)When you say “there are many who have rejected”, I believe you speak on the basis of facts: that you know a number of people who have really rejected. Same way when I say “Brahmins did this” or “Brahmins believe in this”, I am speaking from my personal knowledge of innumerable brahmins’ views on subjects that I write about. I am in touch with them here in their land. I am closer than you to the reality and the arena where events are happening– I understand you are in a faraway land and your views are generally outdated by 50 years.

.., as the dharmashastra codes are there only in book why bother about them?

Precisely, why then this extreme reverence to these (a)dharmashasthras? Why can't they be repudiated. Why?

(2)As you are repeatedly saying this, let me be frank. If it is acidic excuse me. If dharmashastras are held by Acharyas as truth and if Brahmins show reverence to those acharyas, it is for Brahmins to decide what they should do about that. They are not prepared to take instructions on that from the Brahmin bashers and prejudiced intellectuals/politicians. In fact the repeated, relentless and mindless attack on the Brahmins has steeled them into resolving that they should show solidarity with their acharyas in whatever they do, come what may. So don’t ever have this expectation that Brahmins will desert their acharyas and act according to the dictats of dishonest politicians/biased intellectuals even in your wildest dreams. The idea is a non starter.

Raju, you seemed to be committed to the idea that caste problem is purely that of middle-castes and the Brahmins have already reformed, nothing more to be done, case closed. This may help you reconcile what you see as wrong and your fidelity to the Brahmin caste. But reality is more complex.

(3)Thank you for that analysis. But it is flawed. There is no divergence in the first place which will require a reconciliation. What I see as wrong is the blaming game that is played by the perpetrators of atrocities. And my fidelity to the culture and values of Brahmins abhors such atrocities and duplicity. So there is no divergence. If you still see divergence please correct your vision.

BTW, if you take the middle-castes one would find that most of them are poor, they show allegiance to their caste overlords because they are dependent on them, and they have caste affinity towards them due to the jAti-system, a variant of the Varna of Brahminism -- if you don't know what this term means just google it. In most cases, the middle-caste foot-soldiers, say poor Vanniyars, doing the actual fighting are no better off than the Dalits they fight against -- in many ways have more in common with them than their caste overlords. Yet they throw their lot with the rich who throw some bones to them and treat them only marginally better than a dalit. This is because of the ingrained hierarchical Brahminical jAti consciousness.

(4)Now you are in a confused state and you are trying to confuse others too. You are mixing economic status with the caste. In every caste there are poor and rich people-this includes Brahmins as well as dalits. In India leftists have been saying for a long time that what is more important is the economic status of groups of people than the caste status. They believe that as long as the focus remains on castes there is too much of negative energy that is generated in politics which divides people than unite them to reach a goal. I am in agreement with their analysis. That is the reason why communists were for long arch enemies of Dravidian parties and the latter used to call the former poonoolists (of course for the middle castes which form the bulk of Dravidian parties any one speaking sense and logic is a poonoolist). Yes. coming to your point, if poverty is the base of caste system should you not be discussing Maoist insurrection and Salwa Judum than wasting your time on Brahmins and their so called historic burden? I do not go and google for every term that is used here because each one has a different definition for the term brahminism- like Fridgof Capra says about inflation, the best definition for casteism would be that it is what we do not understand but want to show that we have understood fully.If you have read the latest definition by Yamaka you would understand what I say. I believe each definition speaks more about the person offering it than the term itself.

“In most cases, the middle-caste foot-soldiers, say poor Vanniyars, doing the actual fighting are no better off than the Dalits they fight against”—your words. I note with some pain that you have not added “or the Brahmins whom they ultimately blame” in that sentence. I do not find any logic in this innocuous looking omission, which is pregnant with a lot of information about the degree of your prejudices.

In any case, this is not about the middle-castes -- I sincerely hope they find their reformers and get out of the grip of their exploiters -- it is about what Brahmins have done and can do for themselves and others. Unfortunately, contrary to what you often say, Brahmins are not a reformed lot. In their secular life they have been emaciated, they can't exert the same haughtiness like they once did. This is not reform, this is reality setting in.

(5)Knowing you for what you stand for,I fully understand your desire to deny any credit to Brahmins even if they have evolved. Let it be that Brahmins have been emaciated and not reformed if that gives you some pleasure. Prejudices manifest in strange ways indeed!

In religious life they still impose their strict codes. The dharmashasthras are still revered, praised as ideal code to live by, every word in it is supposed to be inerrant. The Brahminical Acharyas declare that not a singe syllable can be changed, the same acharyas are most revered by the Brahmins. This is what I am talking about. The Brahmins can't bring themselves to even change a single word, this shows there is lot to be done before claiming they are already all reformed.

(6)This point is just a repetition. Please read my counter no. 2 in this post above.

The poor among the middle-castes are bad, but how much better are the Brahmins and their friends among rich middle-castes? The middle-castes perpetrate physical violence against Dalit, and, these days, with Dalits increasingly asserting their natural rights, they suffer some violence in return as well, both violence I condemn. However, the kind of violence Brahmins visit upon everyone NB, not just Dalits, is no less painful and damaging. Here it is relevant to note Thiruvalluvar's நாவினால் சுட்ட வடு. This is the kind of violence Brahmins perpetrate upon not just Dalits. It saps the last drop of self respect and human dignity from these hapless people for no fault of theirs except birth. The damage from this kind of violence is long lasting and permanent.

The dalits have three major basic needs first. 1) the security to keep the body and soul together. This is what we call physical survival. This is denied to them by the powerful middle castes. I would request you to recall just two instances: vachathi and keelvenmony. 2. The next is economic well-being. In this too they encounter a number of hurdles put by middle castes. They can not put up a small shop in a village(without any Brahmin household) and expect it to be patronized by the middle castes which in any case is the majority population in all villages. 3. The third is self-respect-the freedom to live with dignity. The middle castes expect only the dalits to announce deaths in a village. A gounder does not expect a poor naidu to do that unpleasant job even if the compensation offered is handsome. And their womenfolk are easy game for the middle castes in villages. If we have to describe the totality of all these there is just one word. Dalits are brutalized in villages by middle castes while you are eloquently talking about the naavinaal sutta vadu. Why do you want to fiddle when dalits’ Rome is on fire? I find only one reason-your pet prejudices.

The Brahminical acharyas need not go to NB castes and preach to them about caste, they will be chased out laughing. The first step is to cleanup their own household before issuing any kind of fatwa, which they cannot issue anyway. Let the Brahmin Acharyas repudiate their (a)dharmashasthras, the one they don't follow anyway. Let them treat all human beings equally in their religious institutions. Let them set an example for other to follow. After earning a reputation for having achieved true reform, then they can start advising other caste people.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Brahmins are not the bellwether in the herd and no one from majority middle-castes will bother to know what is happening to them or their acharyas. If they repudiate the dharmashastras it will be just a non-event or at the most a storm in a tea-cup. The middle caste adharmashastra of torturing dalits will continue without any impact. Brahmins can never set an example for others for obvious reasons

This is with reference to post#74:

The litmus test, if there is any, is to ask what the Dalits think of Brahmins and Brahminism. For all the violence perpetrated by the middle-castes, a violence we all must condemn with all the force we can muster, ask the Dalits if you care and you will find they reject Brahminism no less, if not more.

Yes. dalits will reject the “brahminism” as indoctrinated to them, as repeatedly dinned into their ears, by vested interests and as understood by them. And yes. When it comes to middle castes’ atrocities we must all just condemn them but when it comes to Brahmins they should do amends by deserting their acharyas, by going for icm and irm, by giving up their culture etc., This, some justice!!

It is disappointing that the Brahmnists have to go back 50 years to find a Vaidyanatha Iyer to co-opt, neglecting at the same time that their revered Mathams, and the acharyas they revere, condemn what V. Iyer stood for.

When Brahmin bashers go 3000 years back and rely on “history” handed down by, you know who, there is nothing strange or wrong in Brahmins going back just 50 years to quote an icon. Moreover 50 years is not such a long time-it is within the life time of the present generation.

Cheers!