Cry the Beloved Country

[rishikesan]

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Dear Friends, They were umpteen high thinking personalities, before independence, among them Brahmins were the lot who sacrificed many things for the sake of the country & came out in the open , joined satyagraha & supported Gandhi/ Ghokala etc. & paved way for democracy. It is difficult to belittle them, just like that. Please read some Biographies/ Auto biographies of such personalities, and you will find that Brahmins are selfless & go al,l out to help the Dalits , even to day. It is easy to condemn such veterans, but difficult to follow even one act of theirs, because in this modern , computer age, we enjoy all the conveniences life can provide , yet criticise those who were selfless in those most difficult periods. Let us turn our attention to the reality of to-day, wherein we have get unites to serve the less ptivileged Brahmin families & bring them up to the required level to which we all have reached. Please be practical & help.
A.Srinivasan (rishikesan )

 

[Nara]

Even before sufficient time has elapsed to fully read Raju's long reply it already has a "Like". The quickness of the "Like" is probably because Raju has not said anything new and the entire post can be quickly browsed within a minute or two.

To him, it is all the fault of middle-castes, brahmins are perfect, have nothing to reform, all we need to do is take care of these pesky "brahmin-bashers" spewing their prejudices. Well, they can continue to live in their well, but the world outside is large and their youngsters are leaving the well for good and that bodes well for everyone all around.

In any case, here is a news item that all the "prejudiced" "brahmin bashers" can feel some joy about -- The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Uthapuram's Dalits, caste Hindus reach agreement.

My point that the foot soldiers of dominant caste and the Dalits they fight with are both victims of this insidious caste/varna system of Brahminism is illustrated by this passage in the article:

"P. Sampath of the Tamil Nadu Untouchability Eradication Front told The Hindu that ......
"Members of both the castes are small and marginal farmers but are divided along caste lines. This effort could bring in the much needed class consolidation to move forward together."

​

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....wherein we have get unites to serve the less ptivileged Brahmin families & bring them up to the required level to which we all have reached. Please be practical & help.

A.Srinivasan (rishikesan), I urge you to think broader than merely along caste lines. I will be happy to support a call for all of us to unite and help less privileged -- a call to help less privileged of a particular caste is incongruent to what you say old "veterans" stood for.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

A.Srinivasan (rishikesan), I urge you to think broader than merely along caste lines. I will be happy to support a call for all of us to unite and help less privileged -- a call to help less privileged of a particular caste is incongruent to what you say old "veterans" stood for.

Cheers!

Sometime back I pointed out how the govt of India discriminates on the basis of caste and religion even in the matter of providing loans/ scholarships to the poor - i.e. those who earn less than Rs. 110 per day. There are members in this forum who supported such discrimination. However, now they come around and write how casteist feelings are preventing poor people from uniting and fighting for their rights.

Poor people of other communities get help from govt and host of NGOs. Poor brahmins and poor FCs have no where to go but to seek help from their own communities.

It won't be easy to unite people along class lines as long as discriminatory benefits are provided along caste/ communal lines.

 

[Nara]

.... I am closer than you to the reality and the arena where events are happening– I understand you are in a faraway land and your views are generally outdated by 50 years.

Raju, perhaps you are so close that you are not able to see the broader picture.

In any case, I reject your view that I am stuck in a reality that is 50 years old. Even though I don't live in Tamil Nadu, I have been visiting it quite often and have spent extended periods of time. I have interacted with a variety of people and have benefited with a nuanced understanding of how it was and how it is and how we got here.

Further, in the age of internet one is able to keep in close touch with ground level development, and I do. I follow a range of people through social networking groups. Another source of knowledge on this issue is Newspaper and books.

Equally important is the perspective I bring, with my dual experience. I understand this issue of oppression from both Indian perspective as well as the American perspective. I see lot of eerie parallels between how the African Americans were, and in many ways still are, treated, and the experience of Dalits and other poor backward castes.

So, Raju, let us stick to validity of the views expressed, if what I state is true/false, then it is true/false whether I live in India or not.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Nara's post #77 and my reply:

Even before sufficient time has elapsed to fully read Raju's long reply it already has a "Like". The quickness of the "Like" is probably because Raju has not said anything new and the entire post can be quickly browsed within a minute or two.
To him, it is all the fault of middle-castes, brahmins are perfect, have nothing to reform, all we need to do is take care of these pesky "brahmin-bashers" spewing their prejudices. Well, they can continue to live in their well, but the world outside is large and their youngsters are leaving the well for good and that bodes well for everyone all around.
In any case, here is a news item that all the "prejudiced" "brahmin bashers" can feel some joy about -- The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Uthapuram's Dalits, caste Hindus reach agreement.
My point that the foot soldiers of dominant caste and the Dalits they fight with are both victims of this insidious caste/varna system of Brahminism is illustrated by this passage in the article:

"P. Sampath of the Tamil Nadu Untouchability Eradication Front told The Hindu that ......
"Members of both the castes are small and marginal farmers but are divided along caste lines. This effort could bring in the much needed class consolidation to move forward together."​

1. When you are unable to meet argument with argument forget the content and look at the form and pick holes in it with the rare gift of nit-picking talent.

2. Whatever I say is new but what others say in reply is nothing new.

3. I have an obsession with "Likes" just as I am obsessed with bashing brahmins. So be careful before putting your "Like". I have a stopwatch and I am tracking how much time you take to read a post.

4. Brahmins in India live in the "well". Earlier they were inside the "box". Now they have graduated to the well. I close my eyes to the fact that there a million youngsters who have respect for tradition and cultural values though they may be working in the best of the corporates in the world after doing a PG in Stanford or MIT for every single youngster who has strayed and has gone drifting causing immense amount of agony to every one around.

5. I wish the bashers sustained happiness by repeatedly reading the link here because they rarely get such an opportunity in an entire lifetime.

6. "Members of both the castes are small and marginal farmers but are divided along caste lines. This effort could bring in the much needed class consolidation to move forward together."

Please wait until the wall is rebuilt. You will be reading that news too from the same The Hindu.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Poor people of other communities get help from govt and host of NGOs. Poor brahmins and poor FCs have no where to go but to seek help from their own communities.

It won't be easy to unite people along class lines as long as discriminatory benefits are provided along caste/ communal lines.

kazha, i have an objection here, for what to be projected as superiority, is being projected as on par.

i was always wondering why the fc's are not making as much a cry like tb's when it comes to reservations. mudaliars/chettiars/nadars/pillais have fared well in the last fifty years, not alone in govt reserved jobs but also in competetive trading or entrepreneurship . for us a tb, being an entrepreneur is still a taboo, and its far a distant dream to get a tb bride, with such a profile on his resume.

im really worried.. why harp on past and blame it on something.. why not sail along the stream?

practically, FC's have no much complaints against reservation of jobs/education, because, they found another greener pasture.. trading.. where tb are just handicapped.

after all , the fittest survive.. let the tb's come out of cocoon, and venture in to all activities, to reach the heights.

frankly, i would encourage tb's to open beef shops and meat counters, and go high in this competitive world.. you may feel it as offensive, but matter of fact, top brass of India's KFC/McDonalds/Broiler Chicken additive co's are all donned by brahmins, esp, TB's

p

 

[கால பைரவன்]

i was always wondering why the fc's are not making as much a cry like tb's when it comes to reservations.

My post is about discriminatory treatment of poor people based on caste and/ or religion.

Because Shiv brought up reservations, let me add that his observations are valid only in TN. In the north, the agitations against reservations were carried out not only by brahmins. Other communities classified as FCs also participate in such agitations. The TN scenario is different because of the simple reason that close to 90% of the people are classified as backward. Hence the voices of FCs are easily drowned out.

 

[suraju06]

Nara's post #80:

Raju, perhaps you are so close that you are not able to see the broader picture.
In any case, I reject your view that I am stuck in a reality that is 50 years old. Even though I don't live in Tamil Nadu, I have been visiting it quite often and have spent extended periods of time. I have interacted with a variety of people and have benefited with a nuanced understanding of how it was and how it is and how we got here.
Further, in the age of internet one is able to keep in close touch with ground level development, and I do. I follow a range of people through social networking groups. Another source of knowledge on this issue is Newspaper and books.

I believe the direct presence close to the scene of action gives you the opportunity to experience it in realtime and that will never be the same as what the unidirectional, linear written language we write and read in internet. Well, if you are fully aware of the developments here it is good for avoiding a lot of verbiage here. Welcome.

Equally important is the perspective I bring, with my dual experience. I understand this issue of oppression from both Indian perspective as well as the American perspective. I see lot of eerie parallels between how the African Americans were, and in many ways still are, treated, and the experience of Dalits and other poor backward castes.

You have left out the American Indians even though they are also a part of the society i which you live. May be they are the brahmins of US and that has made you avoid any mention of them or their cause. Just curious.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

In the north, the agitations against reservations were not carried out only by brahmins. Other communities classified as FCs also participate in such agitations. The TN scenario is different because of the simple reason that close to 90% of the people are classified as backward. Hence the voices of FCs are easily drowned out.

i agree with you. but i confine my discussion within TamizhBrahmin. i dont care what and how other brahmins are living, cos, clubbing them would make it worse.

i know you would agree with me, if you happened to travel across bihar/up/mp.

 

[rishikesan]

Friends, I am happy that , after much writings, exchange of views of differences, we all honestly feel the urgency to formulate an Agenda & invite points to be included in the agenda & work out a plan of action, by enlisting knowledgeable persons/ youngsters , both in India & in the U.S. . Let the Team do the rest of the job ?
A.Srinivasan (Rishikesan)

 

[prasad1]

I thought that the majority of the members in this site have not committed any act of violence against anyone, why is this minority of (namely 3) torment the rest of the people. If you hate majority of us and what we stand for, you can always leave. You are not going to change any of us, nor are you going to change the society by you spouting venom at us.

It may sound like sane advice.

 

[Nara]

.... If you hate majority of us and what we stand for, you can always leave. You are not going to change any of us, nor are you going to change the society by you spouting venom at us..

Wow, relax man, take it easy, take a few Prozac if you must.

Whether you like it or not, we are here to stay as the owner of this site is not as narrow-minded as you guys are. You have no standing to ask us to leave, it is better for you to learn to live with us. No need to be Atlas man, unburden.

Cheers!

p.s. Denying any responsibility for casteism/Brahminism is a new feature of casteism/Brahminism, part of a new and improved version!!!

 

[sarang]

Brahmins as a varna will survive and tambrahms will also survive and protect and preserve the traditions.Other jathis will also survive because many people I know are keen to learn their past history, are proud of what they are and what their ancestors did; internet is playing a useful part in consolidating their co-jathi-list and traditions.
It is ludicrous to expect the brahmins to vanish and let other jathis survive. All jathis have a role to play, have a responsibility to preserve their past. This in no way contradicts a modern lifestyle and vocation.
Brhamins too are clever enough to do the balancing act, and can do all - preserving the scriptures, practices, the acharya tradition and getting along and helping others as they did in the past.
Brahmin haters can vomit their venom or pollute the environ with their hate mails; brahmins know how to ignore and avoid them. Life goes on without any turbulence.

 

[Nara]

.......
Brahmin haters can vomit their venom or pollute the environ with their hate mails; brahmins know how to ignore and avoid them. Life goes on without any turbulence.

sarang, all this is fine, but it looks like you love our vomit, you lap every last bit up and can't resist commenting on it.

What you are saying is you love the jAti/varna system and think it will continue for ever. Very well, let it be, fortunately, as many great men have said in the past, the arc of history always bends towards justice. I hope all the people I love, most of them are Brahmins, will be on the right side of history. I hope you will grow out of your taste for vomit and develop taste for the sweetness of love, compassion, and justice.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

I thought that the majority of the members in this site have not committed any act of violence against anyone, why is this minority of (namely 3) torment the rest of the people. If you hate majority of us and what we stand for, you can always leave. You are not going to change any of us, nor are you going to change the society by you spouting venom at us.

It may sound like sane advice.

prasad,

i think it is very important for us all, for the forum and for the public, that alternate viewpoints are heard. the element of truth, is not a monopoly of any group or viewpoint. like the good gold mineral which is dispersed in a mass of slag, so too is truth, dispersed and distinct, within the various posts.

so nara et al, are as much an important ingredient of this forum, as any other of us. also, i think, they have been told to leave in harsher terms before, and i think, thanks to this prodding, which only invigorates their decision to stick around and be a constant reminder, that changes are inevitable, there is a sordid past, and everyone including you has dissociated yourself from many of the ugly practises of yore, the time may not be ready for certain folks to acknowledge their changes.

we may view that within two or three generation from now, the broad attitudes of our tambram traditions will be rethought and reworked, and many odious traditions will be conveniently forgotten or dropped. we have been doing so for the past 100 years. the process will continue whether we individually accept it or not.

this is also true.

 

[suraju06]

Nara's post #88 and a counter:

p.s. Denying any responsibility for casteism/Brahminism is a new feature of casteism/Brahminism, part of a new and improved version!!!

பூனை கண்ணை மூடிக்கொண்டு உலகமே அஸ்த்தமித்துவிட்டதாக நினைத்துகொண்டதாம்.

Denying responsibility for casteism is the kernel of brahmins' world view since time immemorial. It is not anything new. Brahmins and their acharyas might not have bothered to answer upstarts who were targeting them with all their prejudices. That does not mean that they did not have a view/answers. Reminder:You have yet to define 'brahminism'. You thought you were very clever when you passed the buck to Google search Engine. But you were clever only by half. What is your definition of the term 'brahminism'? Do you believe casteism and 'brahminism' are the same as you are connecting the two terms just by a slash? Replies please. Or is it too much to expect one?

 

[sangom]

daivādhīnam jagat sarvam, mantrādhīnam tu daivatam |
tanmantram brahmaṇādhīnam tasmāt brāhmaṇān sampūjayet ||

(This entire universe is under the control of devas, and the devas are controllable by means of mantras. Brahmanas have the control over the mantras (the mantras are under the control of brahmanas) and so, let the brahmanas be worshipped completely.)

This sloka is supposed to be said by Krishna (but I am not sure). Anyway, this is an oft-quoted verse in tabra circles.

Having thus constructively taken over the control of the entire "jagat", brahmins laid down the dharma sastras which pushed the lower castes and dalits to the very ouskirts of Aryan (read civilized) society. Now probably EVR was a more powerful entity than all the mantras of the brahmanas put together, and hence the brahmanas in TN have been marginalized. Hence, the next row which enjoyed the "social class" during the brahmin hegemony has taken upon itself the role played by brahmins earlier and doing things which brahmins might have got done through others since brahmins were deadly afraid of ritual pollution due to nearness and touch.

Our beloved country has been shedding tears for millennia may be She has no more tears to shed now.

 

[suraju06]

Post #93:

This sloka is supposed to be said by Krishna (but I am not sure). Anyway, this is an oft-quoted verse in tabra circles.

The "(but I am not sure)" speaks volumes about what is said and left unsaid here. I am a TB and I have never heard this claim from any of the brahmins or Nbs ( I have a large circle of friends in both the categories). The circle of tabra referred to here must be a special circle, a very privileged one which invites only the atheist/agnostic brahmin bashers for audience.

 

[Nara]

Or is it too much to expect one?

Raju, as long as you dodge answering this question (Praveen, is it possible to open the thread so that Raju is given a chance not to avoid giving an answer?) you are not really entitled to one. But who is counting. I will give you an answer. Here is how I would define Brahminism:

"Brahminism is an ideology which holds, among other things, Vedas are aupurushesya and inerrant, Brahmins have the primary responsibility of preserving and propagating the Vedas, Dharmashasthras are also inerrant as they are extracted from the Vedas, the perfect society is one that is divided into hierarchical varna system in which the Brahmins occupy the top spot, jAti is subset of varnas, there are some jAtis that are permanently polluted so much so they must not be permitted to enter the precincts of temple or where Brahmins live, ......."

​

Okay, here you have it, even though I know very well you knew all this already.

Cheers!

p.s. You guys are too stuck up, as they say in the U.S., you have to get laid more often. Not a day or two passes without one of you calling us one name or another -- we are venom spewing, vomit spouting, prejudiced upstarts, naive brahmin bashers, brahmin haters, and other choice epithets.

If all this gives you some mental solace, then fine keep doing it, but, according to your own karma theory, you are paying a big price for it, every time you abuse us with these names you are taking some of what you believe are our sins.

It is funny that we don't believe in this karma/sin stuff, yet we don't use these degrading names against you guys -- strange isn't?

 

[sangom]

Post #93:



The "(but I am not sure)" speaks volumes about what is said and left unsaid here. I am a TB and I have never heard this claim from any of the brahmins or Nbs ( I have a large circle of friends in both the categories). The circle of tabra referred to here must be a special circle, a very privileged one which invites only the atheist/agnostic brahmin bashers for audience.

This sloka is often cited by the tamil brahmins in Travancore. As a matter of fact the version which I have given, was told to me by an Ezhava friend who is a scholar in sanskrit. But now I googled for "daivaadheenam jagatsarvam" and found at least 100 results. Instead of verifying by googling, our friend has - as per his not so straight wisdom - sought to berate the sloka itself. :sad:

 

[Nara]

... I googled for "daivaadheenam jagatsarvam" and found at least 100 results.

I googled the phrase and got 318 results ....

 

[prasad1]

prasad,

i think it is very important for us all, for the forum and for the public, that alternate viewpoints are heard. the element of truth, is not a monopoly of any group or viewpoint. like the good gold mineral which is dispersed in a mass of slag, so too is truth, dispersed and distinct, within the various posts.

so nara et al, are as much an important ingredient of this forum, as any other of us. also, i think, they have been told to leave in harsher terms before, and i think, thanks to this prodding, which only invigorates their decision to stick around and be a constant reminder, that changes are inevitable, there is a sordid past, and everyone including you has dissociated yourself from many of the ugly practises of yore, the time may not be ready for certain folks to acknowledge their changes.

we may view that within two or three generation from now, the broad attitudes of our tambram traditions will be rethought and reworked, and many odious traditions will be conveniently forgotten or dropped. we have been doing so for the past 100 years. the process will continue whether we individually accept it or not.

this is also true.

I understand your point, and I fully subscribe to that idea. I am not very traditional TB, so I am willing to look at all views. The only thing wrong is this constant blaming on Brahmins without any proven guilt of this Brahmin. I have not seen one constructive comment from some in the other camp. Not everything is the fault of Brahmin, I am sure Mr. Hunjuppu you will agree with that statement.

 

[suraju06]

post #96:

This sloka is often cited by the tamil brahmins in Travancore. As a matter of fact the version which I have given, was told to me by an Ezhava friend who is a scholar in sanskrit. But now I googled for "daivaadheenam jagatsarvam" and found at least 100 results. Instead of verifying by googling, our friend has - as per his not so straight wisdom - sought to berate the sloka itself.

When the sloka has been given clearly and its meaning in English is also given where was need for me to google. I do not go for verification of such simple things like English translation to google. I am straight and so I take it that the sloka exists (that it is not a concoction from a fertile crooked mind). The meaning is also clear to me. I have not berated the sloka-I do not understand how this conclusion w as reached. I have only pointed out the tentative nature of the statement made there. I have also expressed my doubt about the general statement/conclusion reached, that brahmins claim the sloka to be a divine gift hoisting them on a pedestal. I do know what wisdom is. But to know whether it is straight or curved requires perhaps some special talent /wisdom , which I do not have. அடியேன் மீது அருள் கூர்ந்து அந்த மாயா வித்தையை உபதேசித்தால் நன்றி கூறுவேன்.

 

[Nara]

.....You have left out the American Indians even though they are also a part of the society i which you live. May be they are the brahmins of US and that has made you avoid any mention of them or their cause. Just curious.

Raju, as they say, curiosity can kill a cat.

You have once again shown yourself to be uninformed about U.S, history -- please do not misunderstand me, uninformed only means you are unaware, nothing more.

First, the Native Americans hate to be called "American Indian".

Next, the natives, more often than not, welcomed the Europeans, like the native Tamils welcomed the immigrants from the north, perhaps led by some mythical person called Agasthiyar. Read about James Town settlement and Plymouth Rock, if you care. In spite of the welcoming nature of the native tribes, much like the native Tamils, the immigrant Europeans time and time again tried to cheat the natives -- a similarity to Brahmins in Tamil country may be drawn.

Therefore, I think, if you are well informed about the history of American colonial history, you wouldn't bring it up the way you did, because, the Europeans were the ones who were more like Brahmins and the natives were more like native Tamils.

Cheers!