Cry the Beloved Country

[கால பைரவன்]

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i was always wondering why the fc's are not making as much a cry like tb's when it comes to reservations.

i agree with you. but i confine my discussion within TamizhBrahmin. i dont care what and how other brahmins are living, cos, clubbing them would make it worse.

i know you would agree with me, if you happened to travel across bihar/up/mp.

Shiv is requested not to fall for this simple trick of brahas. It is not true that only brahmins voice their concerns against unmonitored and unchecked reservations. Even if one assume it to be true, one can't dismiss their arguments only based on this assertion. A person who does so is no less a casteist than anyone else.

Democracy is a negotiated system of governance. There are basic requirements with regards to equality of treatment. Any citizen can voice his concern when this is subverted. Today reservation in TN stands at 69% despite supreme court imposed ceiling of 50%. what is preventing the TN govt from hiking the reservation to 89% or 99%? What is preventing the central government from increasing the percentage of seats reserved in IITs and IIMs? It is because of the resistance of FCs (only brahmins if your opinion were to be true). Remember, for most part, the brahmins are not fighting for a separate quota for themselves. They are only fighting to keep a certain pool open for all, which includes all FCs. The NBFCs that includes atheists, agnostics and other brahas of this forum are beneficiaries of this resistance. If your assertion is true, one has no choice but to conclude that these NBFCs are freeloaders and hypocrites, for they enjoy the fruits of brahmin resistance but turn around and blame the very same brahmins.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

the immigrant Europeans time and time again tried to cheat the natives

How dare Nara calls the Europeans "cheats", when he is readily using the European language and the technology developed by the immigrant Europeans to communicate readily across about 12,000 miles apart? How dare he calls the Europeans "cheats" when he lives in the very same country built by these immigrant Europeans? Nara should tender an unconditional apology to the Europeans immediately!

 

[sarang]

Solution is not elimination of castes, but making every one proud of their caste lineage and instill the ancient concept of respect for all. It is a mental function and will happen if we do not listen to opportunist and self serving politicians and pseudo secularists. Let indian christians first abolish castes among their sheep.

Inter caste marriages end up in both partners following the caste of the dominant partner; there is no harm in this as this is not a threat to hinduism. If the matrimonial ads in sunday papers are taken as reference, even the emigres prefer same/similar caste grooms/brides, even from the adopted country.

Caste system is a powerful social model, gives ample space for both personal and social interactions for the group members. It is also dynamic, can split and merge when there is need to protect it.

Only a strong caste system will protect us from christian and muslim invasion as in the past. All hindu organisations have members from many castes and work in harmony.

Yes Vaiiyars are terrible with Dalits, so are many dominant NB castes all over TN. This caste system is a curse on everyone in India, and the feeling is so deeply ingrained and fostered at all levels. If there is a glimmer of light in this long dark tunnel it is the youngsters daring to go for icm. When this trend achieves critical mass this long nightmare will quickly come to an end.

In this regard, I hope the progressive minded people in all castes will support and stand with these daring youngsters. This being a site where mostly Brahmins congregate I ask the progressive Brahmins to do the same. Do your bit, don't listen to those who point to atrocities committed by others as though it frees them from any responsibility to do what they can to get rid of this scourge that does indeed makes some children of Mother India to literally bleed.

Paraphrasing JFK, ask not what other castes can do eliminate this cancer, ask what you can do to make this monster called caste system a thing of the past.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

This type of slokas have been authored and compiled by various people of all varnas, on all topics - religion, vedanta, ethics, rajaniti, friendship, love etc. The author is 'anonymous' as you would find in many books of quotations. These are called subhashitas.

This sloka in praise of his guru or acharya who has given him mantra diksha was written by a devoted disciple, perhaps even a ezhava. Subhashitas are not to be equated with shruti or even smruthis. There are slokas denouncing brahmins also.

Our tradition is to treat our gurus as gods, irrespective of guru's varna, social status or even educational level.

This sloka is often cited by the tamil brahmins in Travancore. As a matter of fact the version which I have given, was told to me by an Ezhava friend who is a scholar in sanskrit. But now I googled for "daivaadheenam jagatsarvam" and found at least 100 results. Instead of verifying by googling, our friend has - as per his not so straight wisdom - sought to berate the sloka itself. :sad:

 

[suraju06]

Refer to post #100 by Nara:

You have once again shown yourself to be uninformed about U.S, history -- please do not misunderstand me, uninformed only means you are unaware, nothing more.

I know just enough of American History to lead a peaceful and happy life in India. Like when I said Americans have been able to put behind the memories of atrocities committed on the African slaves and move ahead. You came in with that scholarly piece saying my ignorance of American History was profound and started a lecture on the struggles of Africans in US. I had to explain things in detail to you by giving an example and bring you back to the level ground of reality and context in which we were talking about the civil rights movement. I had to give you the example that when I was telling some one that the tennis ball looks like an orange in shape you intervened and started explaining that the tennis ball has only air inside whereas the orange is a fruit belonging to the citrus variety, that the fruit contains citric acid and further went on to explain what is the formula for citric acid in inorganic chemistry--all to flaunt your knowledge of Chemistry and not about shapes. Now you are again doing the same thing. I asked a simple question as to why you do not speak at all about the American Indians-the name that came to my mind naturally because that was the name I learnt when I studied history. May be American Indians now prefer to be known as Native Americans. That is beside the point. The question is about your silence about their struggle/plight. You have not answered that question yet. Is it because of your profound ignorance of their history?

Next, the natives, more often than not, welcomed the Europeans, like the native Tamils welcomed the immigrants from the north, perhaps led by some mythical person called Agasthiyar. Read about James Town settlement and Plymouth Rock, if you care. In spite of the welcoming nature of the native tribes, much like the native Tamils, the immigrant Europeans time and time again tried to cheat the natives -- a similarity to Brahmins in Tamil country may be drawn

.

Are you sure that the native Americans welcomed the colonising Europeans? There were no wars? There were no killing of natives by the invading Europeans? And where do you get your information/proof that brahmins invaded the Tamil Country? And that Brahmins cheated the Tamils? Even your icon Ramaswamy Naicker did not say this.

Therefore, I think, if you are well informed about the history of American colonial history, you wouldn't bring it up the way you did, because, the Europeans were the ones who were more like Brahmins and the natives were more like native Tamils.

Again I repeat, I am just adequately informed about American History. And your contrived comparison of Europeans and Brahmins needs proof.

You have tried your best to evade the original question: why have you left out the struggle of Native Indians from your spirited arguments? Particularly when according to you, they were like the Tamils. I do expect you to reply to this question. Of course, I have a few such inconvenient questions addressed to you in the past remaining unanswered. If you want I can list them for your convenience. Please let me know.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

I am surprised that that anti-tamil, anti-brahmin, is also anti-india.
it is an evil-axis. Have nothing uplifting to add, has any of the gang ever tried to show the greatness of anyone other than themselves. This self love is funny.

 

[Nara]

...Are you sure that the native Americans welcomed the colonising Europeans? There were no wars? There were no killing of natives by the invading Europeans?

Raju, you say you know enough American history, yet you ask such fundamental questions. Ask the exact same questions about the British coming to India and you will understand.

You know Raju, Thanksgiving holiday is in about a month, and it celebrates an occasion when an European settlement invited the natives for a feast giving thanks to them for all the help they extended. The whole story of Pocahantas, a whitewashed version of it was brought to silver screen by Disney, is about the natives helping the Europeans, showing them how to live off the land that was alien to the settlers, and nursing them to health when they fell ill, etc., yet, the Europeans behaved savagely. That is a long story.

Obviously, the "enough" American history you know is woefully inadequate to comment on it.

And where do you get your information/proof that brahmins invaded the Tamil Country? And that Brahmins cheated the Tamils? Even your icon Ramaswamy Naicker did not say this.

Your own puranas say as much, or do you think the puranas are all bunk?

This piece of history has been beaten to death by everyone. I have my view, you have yours, let us leave it at that.

Again I repeat, I am just adequately informed about American History. And your contrived comparison of Europeans and Brahmins needs proof.

Raju, remember, you are the one who made this comparison first with Native Americans. Here is what you said in this post.

"You have left out the American Indians even though they are also a part of the society i which you live. May be they are the brahmins of US and that has made you avoid any mention of them or their cause. Just curious."

​

I was only responding to this. So, if anybody must provide proof, it is you, for the comparison you have made that the Native Americans are the Brahmins of U.S.

BTW, the Europeans clearly immigrated into the Americas and became the dominant force. In this respect the Europeans have more in common with the Brahmins who came down to the South -- your own legends say Agastiyar came to the south to balance out the population -- and slowly became the dominant force.

You have tried your best to evade the original question: .... Of course, I have a few such inconvenient questions addressed to you in the past remaining unanswered. If you want I can list them for your convenience. Please let me know.

Raju, is this about the question I have been after you to answer, one about the Brahmin SVs and SV acharyas simply giving lip service to the commentaries of early acharyas? I know you can't answer that question and that is why you have been avoiding it for the last one year or more. Until you honestly answer that question you are not entitled to any answer from me.

But, as I said earlier, I am not one to nurse a grudge, fire away, what are these questions that you say I am avoiding, list it, and I will try my best to answer them honestly and sincerely.

Cheers!

Click here for the question that you have to answer! Unfortunately, the only answer sincere SVs can give is cry, as in Cry beloved SV

 

[suraju06]

Reference post #107 by Nara:

Raju, you say you know enough American history, yet you ask such fundamental questions. Ask the exact same questions about the British coming to India and you will understand.
You know Raju, Thanksgiving holiday is in about a month, and it celebrates an occasion when an European settlement invited the natives for a feast giving thanks to them for all the help they extended. The whole story of Pocahantas, a whitewashed version of it was brought to silver screen by Disney, is about the natives helping the Europeans, showing them how to live off the land that was alien to the settlers, and nursing them to health when they fell ill, etc., yet, the Europeans behaved savagely. That is a long story.
Obviously, the "enough" American history you know is woefully inadequate to comment on it.

A labored attempt at avoidance of a direct answer. The questions still beg a direct answer. Did the Native Americans resisted the Europeans or not? Were they killed by Europeans with their superior fire power in an unequal struggle or not? These questions need a direct answer-yes or no. With your formidable knowledge of American History you should be able to answer these questions easily but you are avoiding it. If and when you answer I hope to understand the reasons for your avoiding this subject in your passionate arguments in favour of the 'Africans' of America. That would settle my original question from which you started digressing. That would also help me understand the difference between the American experience and Indian experience in such matters and the reasons for that.

Your own puranas say as much, or do you think the puranas are all bunk?

So you strongly believe and contend that the puranas are pure truth and there is no lie said in them. Please confirm this so that I can understand where you stand. It is confusing. Some times you quote from the puranas to prove a point or two and come another occasion, you throw the puranas into the garbage saying they are all bunk. Where exactly do you stand. Or is it that you are going to triumphantly unveil a strong proof other than puranas from your repertoire after hearing from me that the puranas are bunk? You could have done that in the first instance itself. I am sorry to point out that this is not the way matured people debate.

Raju, remember, you are the one who made this comparison first with Native Americans. Here is what you said in this post.

"You have left out the American Indians even though they are also a part of the society i which you live. May be they are the brahmins of US and that has made you avoid any mention of them or their cause. Just curious."

​

I was only responding to this. So, if anybody must provide proof, it is you, for the comparison you have made that the Native Americans are the Brahmins of U.S.

Come on. This is the limit. I asked you a question to know your view and wondered loudly whether your enthusiasm to run down brahmins of India has any thing to do with your 'enthusiastic' (meticulously avoiding) forgetting of the American Indians. And you are now asking me to prove that the American Indians and brahmins have something in common. You are indeed a master in going round and round in arguments. I recommend that you please read my posts for a second time before replying. Because of your prejudices your first reading appears to be misleading you. This is a sincere request.

BTW, the Europeans clearly immigrated into the Americas and became the dominant force. In this respect the Europeans have more in common with the Brahmins who came down to the South -- your own legends say Agastiyar came to the south to balance out the population -- and slowly became the dominant force.

This requires first to clear this point-that we can place our conclusions on the basis of puranas, that puranas are equal to history, that each purana was written by one author or his contemporaries, that their time is determinable now. Please let me have your views on this.

Raju, is this about the question I have been after you to answer, one about the Brahmin SVs and SV acharyas simply giving lip service to the commentaries of early acharyas? I know you can't answer that question and that is why you have been avoiding it for the last one year or more. Until you honestly answer that question you are not entitled to any answer from me.

Dont you worry. I am delving into the archives to show you how I have answered your this particular question already. Any way you will get your answer soon. If Praveen had not closed that thread I would have given you the answer for the final one time. I thought Praveen did not like our arguments on this subject.

But, as I said earlier, I am not one to nurse a grudge, fire away, what are these questions that you say I am avoiding, list it, and I will try my best to answer them honestly and sincerely.

Oh! That is quite nice of you. For the start up answer this pending question first:

1. Do you think brahminism and casteism are the same? ( A yes or no would be enough. I asked you this question in the same post in which I had asked you to define brahminism.) As usual you first wriggled out by referring to Google search engine and when I pressed, you have given your definition of brahminism whereas the connected second question is not answered. Please answer this now. Other questions will follow.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

.... Did the Native Americans resisted the Europeans or not?

Yes, of course they did. What is your point? If you are saying I purposely did not mention Native Americans, then I say you are wrong. Oppression was endemic in the American continent, starting from the Spanish Conquistadors from late 15th century. The Americans imported a whole host of Chinese immigrants and exploited them. There were Japanese laborers that suffered a lot also. In Hawaii there is still a large Japanese settlement. The latest to be oppressed are the Latino undocumented workers.

Yes, of course the Native Americans fought valiantly against the White Americans. But it did not start that way. Even after the White colonies had already established firm foothold, the Natives made alliances with various European groups. The natives went to England and France to learn their ways. At various times the Natives fought with and against the British, French, and the Americans.

Once again, I don't see what your point is. I am not purposely avoiding anything.

So you strongly believe and contend that the puranas are pure truth and there is no lie said in them.

The reason I believe there was some sort of Brahmin migration into Tamil country is not based on Puranas, but other sources of evidence, not the least of which are mtDNA studies published in academic journals of repute. The reason I cited puranas is to point out that you guys are questioning what your own puranas say, ones you hold as unadulterated truth.

For me personally, the puranas may at best hold some clues, but must not be used as clinching evidence. There are many puranas that are simply concocted in very recent times that are worth nothing in terms of any glimpse into the past. Temple sthala puranas are particularly notorious in this regard. However, if you take Ramayana (various telling), MB, Vishnu Puranam, etc., they may hold some clues for further study.

'enthusiastic' (meticulously avoiding) forgetting of the American Indians.

I am sure I have my share of prejudices, without them we all will be inanimate objects. However, I try to be as honest and sincere as I can. Even though I try my best to avoid any mistakes in my writing, I can assure you, contrary to what you may believe , I am not perfect. So, if you are looking for some mistake somewhere, I am sure you can find my share of it. But, let me repeat, I did not purposely ignore, let alone meticulously, any part of history. If there was a mistake that caused harm to anyone, I am ready to apologize and correct the record.

I thought Praveen did not like our arguments on this subject.

Praveen closed the thread because you said you were leaving the forum.

You can answer the specific question in this very thread as the subject matter is quite in line with the topic of this thread. While you do so, please stick to exactly what Periyavachchan Pillai says and how the present day SV Acharyas and Brahmins (fail to) live up to those words. Please be as direct as possible.

1. Do you think brahminism and casteism are the same? ( A yes or no would be enough. I asked you this question in the same post in which I had asked you to define brahminism.) As usual you first wriggled out by referring to Google search engine and when I pressed, you have given your definition of brahminism whereas the connected second question is not answered.

Raju, can we be little more respectful of each other, please? Why do you have to write things like "your prejudiced views", "wiggling out", etc. The definition of Brahminism I gave is consistent with what you could have found through a Google search. That is why I suggested it, not because I was trying to wiggle out. I just can't understand why you guys can't say anything without using some derisive language??

Coming to your question, Brahminism is the root cause for casteism. Saying it differently, Brahminism is the tree, its fruit is castesim, in all its ghastly splendor.

Cheers!

p.s. Raju, please stop making personally hurtful comments, they take a toll. Let us stick to the issues and be civil, in which case there is a lot we can talk about. Please consider this request seriously.

 

[prasad1]

Wow, relax man, take it easy, take a few Prozac if you must.

Whether you like it or not, we are here to stay as the owner of this site is not as narrow-minded as you guys are. You have no standing to ask us to leave, it is better for you to learn to live with us. No need to be Atlas man, unburden.




Cheers!

p.s. Denying any responsibility for casteism/Brahminism is a new feature of casteism/Brahminism, part of a new and improved version!!!

The typical narcissist, thinks he knows it all. Prescribing medicine without any qualification for the task. Did you know it is illegal to prescribe controlled drug without a medical degree.

The cynics even signs his insult with false greeting of cheers, man the drooling of venom is a dead giveaway.

 

[zebra16]

The cynics even signs his insult with false greeting of cheers, man the drooling of venom is a dead giveaway.

I strongly object to personal vilification and would request you to edit out the remark.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear friends, On reading the write -ups of the above, i feel that though we we are all well educated and desire to progress as Tamil Brahmins, it is of paramount importance not to dwell on matters which are not concerned with our aim. We can all endeavor to express their views & others who differ may not venture to criticize, with lesser knowledge & try to extend the arguments which , later will be realized as infruectuous..
Hope you agree.
A.Srinivasan

 

[sarang]

One man who was very sick, selected a random doctor's number from the telephone directory and dialed that number. The phone was answered by a little girl. "Can I speak to the doctor, very urgent, I am very ill and need immediate consultation," he said. The girl answered "you are wasting your time; he is not that kind of doctor who does any good to anybody; he is a Ph.D."

Me too a Ph.D.

The typical narcissist, thinks he knows it all. Prescribing medicine without any qualification for the task. Did you know it is illegal to prescribe controlled drug without a medical degree.

The cynics even signs his insult with false greeting of cheers, man the drooling of venom is a dead giveaway.

 

[prasad1]

I strongly object to personal vilification and would request you to edit out the remark.

Zebra do you know what is prozac prescribed for? I have every right to say to Nara what I think of him, if he calls me crazy. You dont have to defend a person who hates majority of people in this site, who hates brahmins, Hindus, and Indians.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Almost all of us talk of “economic imbalance” or “income inequality”. But do you want to have a taste of it?

The GDP of India as per 2010 estimates is US $ 1.631 Trillion. As we know, India has a population of 1.2 Billion people. This works out to a per capita GDP of US $ 1 370. This is our point A.

Now look at point B. According to the latest publication of Forbes magazine, the top 100 Indians together possess a net worth of US $ 241 Billion. A simple average gives us a per capita net worth of US $ 2.41 Billion.

Contrast A with B.
US $ 1 370 v/s US $ 2.4 Billion
In other words, 0.000008% of the population holds nearly 15% of the GDP.

Is ‘imbalance’ too mild a term to express this? Should our beloved country cry?

 

[sangom]

Almost all of us talk of “economic imbalance” or “income inequality”. But do you want to have a taste of it?

The GDP of India as per 2010 estimates is US $ 1.631 Trillion. As we know, India has a population of 1.2 Billion people. This works out to a per capita GDP of US $ 1 370. This is our point A.

Now look at point B. According to the latest publication of Forbes magazine, the top 100 Indians together possess a net worth of US $ 241 Billion. A simple average gives us a per capita net worth of US $ 2.41 Billion.

Contrast A with B.
US $ 1 370 v/s US $ 2.4 Billion
In other words, 0.000008% of the population holds nearly 15% of the GDP.

Is ‘imbalance’ too mild a term to express this? Should our beloved country cry?

Shri Siva,

Unless comparative figures are given for US how is it possible to come to any conclusion? It is universal that in any country some will be very rich and some others, very poor.

 

[C RAVI]

Almost all of us talk of “economic imbalance” or “income inequality”. But do you want to have a taste of it?

The GDP of India as per 2010 estimates is US $ 1.631 Trillion. As we know, India has a population of 1.2 Billion people. This works out to a per capita GDP of US $ 1 370. This is our point A.

Now look at point B. According to the latest publication of Forbes magazine, the top 100 Indians together possess a net worth of US $ 241 Billion. A simple average gives us a per capita net worth of US $ 2.41 Billion.

Contrast A with B.
US $ 1 370 v/s US $ 2.4 Billion
In other words, 0.000008% of the population holds nearly 15% of the GDP.

Is ‘imbalance’ too mild a term to express this? Should our beloved country cry?

Shri Haridasa,

The thread - "Cry the beloved country" and the OP clearly indicates the subject of present times atrocities of castism, its biased behaviors, cruelty, injustice, oppression etc..etc.., all revolving around the caste stigma of our beloved country - INDIA.

It is not about "economic inbalance" or "income inequality"

 

[prasad1]

Post #115 seems factual, let us say we accept that premise, what is the solution?
Let us propose solution and see if it will fly in this forum. The proposal to cut everybody to one size will not work. Short of that what else can be done. Various economy has tried and is trying so alleviate this problem.

Even if we accept on a workable solution, do we have the political will to enforce it? I believe that Siva's quest is genuine and sincere.

 

[Nara]

Shri Siva,

Unless comparative figures are given for US how is it possible to come to any conclusion? It is universal that in any country some will be very rich and some others, very poor.

Sangom sir, please visit this wiki article for a complete list of countries by income inequality.

The ratio of the average income of the richest 10% to the poorest 10%:
U.S.A = 15.9
U.K. = 13.8
India = 8.6
Pakistan = 6.5

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Of total world income, 42 per cent goes to those who make up the richest 10 per cent of the world’s population, while just 1 per cent goes to those who make up the poorest 10 per cent.

Countries with very high inequality are clustered in South America and southern Africa. Countries with low inequality are mostly in Europe. Canada and the U.S. have medium income inequality.

Also all numbers are computed differently. In US services are not counted in income. In India black money is not included.


Another way to see inequality is.
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/01/world-income-inequality.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-the-world-is-a-failure-of-capitalism/238837/

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Post: 116: Sangom sir, we do not necessarily have to compare India with others. We are more concerned with our country, isn't it?

Post 117: Ravi, I agree with you. But I thought my post fits to the title though not to the OP. In a way, even caste diiferences manifest due to economic reasons. hwell:


Post 118, Nara: Thanks for giving the data. I think there is a difference between 'concentration of wealth' and 'income inequality'. While my post is on the former, your response highlights the latter.


Post 119: prasad1: I agree with you. We need to look at the solution. கொடுத்ததெல்லாம் கொடுத்தார்...
ஒருத்தருக்கா கொடுத்தார் இல்லை ஊருக்காக கொடுத்தார்

 

[Nara]

....Post 118, Nara: Thanks for giving the data. I think there is a difference between 'concentration of wealth' and 'income inequality'. While my post is on the former, your response highlights the latter.

Siva, we are mixing up terminologies. You cited per capita GDP, which is a measure of income, not wealth. I also cited income data.

If we take wealth, the disparity statistic is as follows.

A BBC report for 2007 data:
Top 10% wealthy in India owned 53% of the Indian national wealth, bottom 50% own 8%

For the same year, for USA:
Top 10% wealthy in USA owned 73% of the US national wealth, bottom 50% own 2%

But these statistics mask an even more interesting underlying income disparity (not wealth), good or bad I leave it up to the readers. Take a look at the following from NY Times Business Day:

"That is, the typical person in the bottom 5 percent of the American income distribution is still richer than 68 percent of the world’s inhabitants."

"America’s poorest are, as a group, about as rich as India’s richest."

"....at the entire bottom chunk of Americans, some of whom make as much as $6,700; that may be extremely poor by American standards, but that amounts to a relatively good standard of living in India, where about a quarter of the population lives on $1 a day."

​

Cheers!

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Naraji,

Thanks for the insightful post. Quite interesting. The closing lines, “most of one’s lifetime income will be determined at birth” gives me an impression that Mr.Brankovic is a “believer”.:eyebrows:

 

[prasad1]

Naraji,

Thanks for the insightful post. Quite interesting. The closing lines, “most of one’s lifetime income will be determined at birth” gives me an impression that Mr.Brankovic is a “believer”.:eyebrows:

Did Steven Jobs knew that? LOL

 

[sangom]

Post: 116: Sangom sir, we do not necessarily have to compare India with others. We are more concerned with our country, isn't it?

Shri Siva,

Since you had GDP (Gross National Product which is a value assigned to all the goods and services produced in the country during a certain period, and hence does not really show the "income" of anyone) and wealth in your post, I felt at least some comparison must be there for anyone to appreciate what was given. Otherwise it is like மொட்டைத்தலை and முழங்கால்