Discipline

[renuka]

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Greek Gods look maximum masculine.

They have animal attraction for all women

Indian women pray to snakes.

They put milk in their abode.

There is nothing that indicates that hindus alone have superior Gods.

Of course people are free to have their beliefs and live in a world of their own

Indian Gods too do not lag behind..they chase sages wives when sage is not in Ashram!LOL

So Devas do not have discipline!LOL

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Indian women pray to snakes.

They also put the snakes and all other animals into the cages at the Zoo and visit once in a while when they need amuzement.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Indian Gods too do not lag behind..they chase sages wives when sage is not in Ashram!LOL

So Devas do not have discipline!LOL

And who said the Greek Gods are disciplined?
We have studied about them too.
It is reported that they steal from each other.
They engage in petty feuds with one another
Moreover their most distinctive quality is not goodness, but is reported to be power.

Why then those who glorify poor animals keep them locked cages in the zoo… and don't even visit them at all. LOL

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Even animals have free will..they are not brain dead,
Everything has souls..not only humans,

Mere statement willnot help.

Do you have any material to prove your point..

And I don't say that I am supreme. It is my stand that we are all supreme. And I still believe that it is true.

 

[krish44]

They also put the snakes and all other animals into the cages at the Zoo and visit once in a while when they need amuzement.

Indian women do not put snakes into the cages. You have a confused mind.

Somewhere else you concede that human being is not divine.

You are scoring self goals.

You are fit to join indian football team.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Indian women do not put snakes into the cages. You have a confused mind.

Somewhere else you concede that human being is not divine.

You are scoring self goals.

You are fit to join indian football team.

You like to sound intellectual by mention of such texts which were not posted by me and coming up with your own assumptions.

I love knock outs and go for it repeatedly.

Of course, you are free to have your own beliefs and live in a dream world of your own.

 

[renuka]

Mere statement willnot help.

Do you have any material to prove your point..

And I don't say that I am supreme. It is my stand that we are all supreme. And I still believe that it is true.

Yes...I have evidence.

I will relate 4 incidences that show animals have free will.

1)1st incidence..once my dad had gone outstation and one elderly male relative came to keep us company till my dad came back.

I had 2 dogs..one dog had a mind of his own...he seldom listens to anyone..(somewhat like me!)

He used to roam around till late night and then come home for dinner after hanging out with his street dog buddies.

Ok BUT when the elderly relative came..this naughty dog was suddenly very different in behavior.

He never left the house at all..his street dog friends were looking for him but he never went out.

He in fact was inside my house dining room all the while following every step of the elderly relative.

Then after 2 days when my dad came back...right away this naughty dog ran outside to play with his street friend.

Now...why did he not leave the house for 2 days?

He even did not bother for his friends..why?

Reason..he did not feel comfortable that my dad was not at home and some other person was at home...he felt he needed to protect us till my dad came back.


2)OK...next incident..same dog..since he used to roam around till late night and come home late..my dad decided to lock him up in a kennel at home at night.

The kennel was made of wood and had a roof too and we covered the roof with a thick carpet cos it used to get cold at night.

Every morning 6 am..I used to open the kennel and he would shake hands with me by giving his paw.

Then one fine day I woke up early and went to open his kennel and 5.45 am and to my surprise I saw him climbing back into his kennel from the roof.
He had broken the roof on his own..pulled the carpet over to cover the hole and then been going out at night(the house was on a hill..so no gate)...and coming back in the morning..climbing back like an innocent dog acting as if he never went out.

Ok..for an animal..if he follows instinct..all he needs to do is just get out of the kennel..this guy got out but knew if his secret was out we would repair the kennel and he would not be able to escape.

So he acted cleverly covered his tracks.

If this isnt free will..then I wonder what else is free will.

3)Monkey..free will.

This dog used to fight with the monkeys badly...he would not allow them to eat food given to them ..one day monkeys took revenge.

One monkey saw my dog eating...the monkey climbed on a tree and filled its mouth with a type of red seeds called Saga seeds.
Then the monkey spat all the seeds into my dogs food bowl and that was it...big fight too place..I could see the monkeys so happy jumping that my dog could not eat his food cos it was full of seeds!LOL

It was really funny seeing that.




4)Monkey free will again.

Some monkeys that lived nearby our house used to come daily to our house and we would feed them.
One was very close to us.

When I used to walk down the hill and jungle sometimes he would climb on some fruit trees and pluck some jungle fruit and throw it to me.

Its Athiti Devo Bhava...he knew when he comes to my house..I feed him..so when I came to his jungle..he was giving me fruits.

I have many such stories..cos I grew up surrounded by a jungle.

If you observe animals they do have free will.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Madam,

Thanks for your response and for sharing your experience.

I can say that these are all sporadic incidents and one cannot generalise this with all the animals created under the sun by the Almighty God.

Do animals have souls...?

Do they have full-blown free will like that of human beings?

That is debatable.

Do you mean to say that these animals choose their own values of life, like that of us?

They choose a sort of life that we choose, what we wanted to lead?

They choose a sort animals to befriend as we human wanted to be?

First of all, do they have ability or discretion to choose?

Then why they call it natural instinct, animal instinct, evolutionary instinct, etc

Scripts says that their duty is to nourish humans through their milk and through self-sacrifice.

We can treat animals with more compassion and respect that is different.

They are in the lower scale of evolution when compared to human.

On the contrary human life is very precious and we take a birth as human only after many lives of existence in the lower forms

In the whole creation, only human beings are reported to have the opportunity to achieve salvation.

This is what Manikka Vasagar’s Sivapuranam says:

Pullagi, poodai puzhuvai maramaki,
Pala virugamagi pravayai , pambaki ,
Kallai , manitharai peyai , ganangalai ,
Val asuraragi , munivaraai , devaraai ,
Chellaaa nindra , ithathavara jangamathukkul ,
Yella pirappum piranthu ,ilaithen, yem perumaane.(26-31)

Oh lord by becoming grass, small plants , worms , trees ,
Several types of animals , birds , snakes ,
Stone , human beings , ghosts , different types of devils,
Strong asuras , sages devas ,
And I traveled all over this spectrum of moving and not moving things ,
And took all types of births and became tired.

Source: http://stotraratna.sathyasaibababrotherhood.org/s73.htm

This is my two cents..

To be continued....

 

[renuka]

Do animals have souls...?

..

Oh My Kaduvale!

You sound so Abrahamic!

As a Hindu its understood even animals have souls.

I think you are getting confused with consciousness and soul.

Aiyoo....Enna Kodumai Sir Idhu?

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Oh My Kaduvale!

You sound so Abrahamic!

As a Hindu its understood even animals have souls.

I think you are getting confused with consciousness and soul.

Aiyoo....Enna Kodumai Sir Idhu?

Why such a reaction....?

I think that question of mine was posed long back I mean during the initial stage of the discussion.

Later, after reacting to many of my responses, you are suddenly raking up this issue now...? Aiyoo....Enna Kodumai Madam Idhu?

Any way, why do you drag Hinduism now all of a sudden?

Leave alone the religions, now what is the fact....?

 

[Raji Ram]

The powerful ones like Hiranyakasipu, Ravana and Kamsa thought they were THE supreme! :first:

And, we know the rest of their story!

 

[V.Balasubramani]

The powerful ones like Hiranyakasipu, Ravana and Kamsa thought they were THE supreme! :first:

And, we know the rest of their story!

Members do come here, pick up something here and there and vomit something irrelevant

endaro mahanubhavulu....

One member comes here to say that humans are divine...

I don't know where he picked up this..

And now one comes here to point out the fate of humans who thought they are powerful..

I have not said anywhere in this thread that humans are powerful, if I remember right.

My stand is that human being are precious, sacred, great and supreme...

I am not responsible for other words which were not uttered by me...

The discussion is about the supremacy of humans over animals

Where come Rakshasas(Demons) here...

Hairanyakasipu is an Asura

Kamsa is considered as a Rakshasa(Demon) as per puranas

Ravana is also considered as a Rakshasa (Demon)..

Some seems to have confused more....

 

[prasad1]

When ten bright people see it one way, and only you see it differently, there is something to be said.
Why try to impose only your side of the story.

The soul takes any shape, there is no hierarchy there.
I do agree that human life is precious, and we must not waste this opportunity.

 

[tks]

Some points may be relevant in my view to this thread.

1. Free will experience is a unique human experience that is so free that it allows one to go against what is right (Dharma) as well. It is about the will to go against what is against the law of land or universal law of Dharma. It also includes following Dharma or anything in between. It is not just about preference or moods which many mammals display. An animal is programmed to follow its dharma. It is impossible to find a dog being ashamed of its own looks (self judgement arising from free will experience) or rape another dog just to put it down while having its self gratification. Humans have this unique endowment of free will supported by Viveka that is mostly abused and squandered.

2. During translation of Sanskrit words to English, great teachers of the past and present had choose a word from the list that is available. One of the mistaken translation of Atma to soul is unfortunate since soul has a specific biblical meaning. Moksha similarly is not salvation from any original sin. All living beings including bacteria have a gross body (Sthula Sharira) and subtle body (Sukshma Sharira). The model of Karma considers that Sukshma Sharira goes about finding the next (gross) body after death according to its Prarabdha Karma. So a human can be born as any being in this belief system.

3. Rather than consider any being as superior, what one can look at the unique endowment of a given form and see if it is is in line with the objective of achieving Moksha. In this sense the Viveka and eye of wisdom is needed that is unique to only human form. The poet in this stanza says

நந்தவனத்தில் ஓர் ஆண்டி - அவன்
நாலாறு மாதமாய்க் குயவனை வேண்டி
கொண்டு வந்தான் ஒரு தோண்டி - மெத்தக்
கூத்தாடிக் கூத்தாடிப் போட்டுடைத்தாண்டி

In the earth (Nandavanam) there is a beggar (Jiva) begging the pot maker (Isvara). After 10 months (of human gestation) he is gifted a Pot (human body endowed with Viveka). The beggar (jiva) dancing around breaks the Pot (squanders the endowment).

A human being that does not use his/her unique gift for liberation has wasted this very rare opportunity and the entire life.

 

[tks]

When ten bright people see it one way, and only you see it differently, there is something to be said.
Why try to impose only your side of the story.

The soul takes any shape, there is no hierarchy there.
I do agree that human life is precious, and we must not waste this opportunity.

This is just a chit-chat discussion and arguments make the forum more interesting. No one is capable of imposing their will on anyone. One can assert their free will and not follow the thread. There have been only respectful discussion as far as I can sense.

 

[Raji Ram]

Members do come here, pick up something here and there and vomit something irrelevant

:lol: What others say is 'vomit' and this is the way to interact with to other members!

I mentioned that all those who thought themselves to be supreme had a sad end. :tsk:

We have Hitler and Bin Laden for examples, in humans. And that IS IT!

 

[Raji Ram]

This is just a chit-chat discussion and arguments make the forum more interesting. No one is capable of imposing their will on anyone. One can assert their free will and not follow the thread. There have been only respectful discussion as far as I can sense.

I am surprised, T K S Sir!

 

[tks]

I am surprised, T K S Sir!

I did not read every post. I was only skimming through to see if there is any 'content' to catch my attention.
If someone speaks about a post that is one thing.

Attacking a person specifically about their integrity, their ego whatever that may be etc are the kind of attacks that deteriorates a discussion . I did not sense that kind of an attack

 

[Raji Ram]

I did not read every post. I was only skimming through to see if there is any 'content' to catch my attention.
If someone speaks about a post that is one thing. ....

It is clear that you are missing some posts.

When a member writes that others 'vomit' something irrelevant here, I don't consider it as a decent post! :nono:

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I did not sense that kind of an attack

:thumb:

 

[renuka]

LOL!

Now its about 69? I mean 6 & 9?


BTW sir...you have been pasting info from Vivekachudamani...also other religious texts...also proclaimed you are staying in India...professing Hinduism etc...so going by that flow its only acceptable for me to also bring in some points based on our Hindu religion..its not as if you are Sunni and I am a Shia!LOL

 

[renuka]

BTW everyone...no need to get too serious...we can also have some decent fun while exchanging opposing views.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

We have Hitler and Bin Laden for examples, in humans. And that IS IT!

We have one member who opens a thread on Mahaperiyava

And come here to write about Hitler and Bin Laden conveniently forgetting great mahans.

Enna Kodumai sir Idhu !!!

Now there will be entry of few Jalras.......:cheer2::cheer2:

 

[renuka]

Now there will be entry of few Jalras.......:cheer2::cheer2:

True...I am the Jalra Queen!LOL

 

[renuka]

:lol: What others say is 'vomit' and this is the way to interact with to other members!

Dear RR ji,

Worry not...Regurgitate can be divine too.

Taittiriya Upanishad came into being becos of Regurgitate of Yajnavalkya.



1. The great sage Yajnavalkya quarrelled with his preceptor. He was asked by Vaishampayana, his Guru, to return the Veda which he had studied under him. Yajnavalkya vomited the Yajurveda he had learnt. The other Rishis, the pupils of Vaishampayana, assumed the forms of Tittiris (birds, partridges) and swallowed the Veda thus thrown out or vomited. Therefore it came to be known as Taittiriya-Samhita.


http://sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=586