Do all Brahmins need Kula Dhaivam?

[Govinda]

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I did read you post twice yesterday. I wanted to think over your post before answering it.
Let us say we see a man thrashing in ocean miles from the shore.

You and Mr. TBS are suggesting, if i understand it correctly:


My inner self will not let me sleep a wink if the person drowns.

Thanks for your time.

I completely attest SriRaju's post #92 of Srivaishnava's stand. But, his case is only for those GajendrAs, who wanted to be
rescued (from drowning) only for liberation. In this case, he had a cellphone (mind ), to work at that time (free of karma), and the helicopter that right away picks him up to safety (Vishnu's grace) available. Like in this news today:
Hunter Falls Through Ice on Colorado River - ABC News

If someone is drowning, he is not interested in final destination even (liberation/moksha). He first thinks of getting to safety. He wants to cling to something (to escape the fear/panic/anxiety conceived by mind). Samsara is no different from such trauma, when we are not educated, composed already. This is exactly why, our shastras advise on disciplining our mind, body and self/soul from young age. We have gone hay-wire, and when danger ensues, it comes in loads, which one will we attend, as we haven't organized or planned ourselves.

So, to focus our mind, just start with any thing that they can concentrate, plus, the path for which their relatives, neighbors can support. Like in Kunjuppu's reply, if you venture on our own, to the words of Krishna, how are you sure to get support from the relatives who are shiva or devi or ayyanar devoted? So, these people are seeking to raise up, just get the family support (for other reasons too). So, just let them seek any deivam, our learned brahmins themselves would entertain any deity, as a psychological relief , to bring them to normal, independent living.

On the other hand, people can really take a right path, come what may. I have seen people changed completely from scratch, in many grounds. That for one, needs real dedication, wisdom, and above all karma (& Narayana's grace).

 

[Govinda]

If we keep chasing these physical goals through pleasing these demi-Gods, we are in effect saying that Krishna lied when he said
Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita, Chapter 18 – verse 66:


sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah


Abandon all kinds of dharma,
abandon all action, abandon all duty,
and surrender to Me.
I will protect you, do not fear.

I do not think we should abandon faith in Krishna's words.

Very nice for quoting Krishna's words. But, to support your advaitic stance

If that is all what He meant, Wow! He wouldnt have wasted 18 chapters. We would have had
only ONE verse!

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Sriman Narayanan can be worshiped in different forms as Durgai/Lakshi/Parvathy or Lord Shiva is worshiped
in different forms. Whatever may be the form, ultimately the origin is one.

Balasubramanian

 

[Jaykay767]

Many cutures & civilizations (Vedic, Greek, Egyptian, Inca, Mesapotamia etc..) have/had many many Gods, prayers, numerous traditions etc.. Only Christianity & Islam have moved to a only 1 God Concept. Both are perfectly okay for the faithful who follow each religion. All co-exist in our world.

For those of us following the Vedic religion, we continue our traditions, rituals, customs & worship many many Gods. Why follow traditions ?. It moves us towards Bhakti, ensure we are rooted strongly in the path of righteousness, not stray way into the wrong path, & ultimately lead to salvation.

for most people who are not rich, they have to chase material goals for livelyhood for their family (many in this forum did that in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s & now preaching to others why chase physical goals !!). The traditions provides us with a strong moral & religious fabric & continue with life's necessities.

The faithful in all religions will religiously follow with great fervour, the others can go their way & perform all lilas in life & enjoy the fruits of their actions.

for the traditionalist & only the traditionalist (Both Brahmins & NBs), my advise is please continue the traditions without fail & ensure your kids, grand kids follow them without fail / ensure you explain what happens when they dont follow & how the family will dis-integrate if they dont. Read my earlier post.

Our anscetors treasured the sanskrit texts against all odds, ensured a oral recantation process to preserve almost all of the texts in exactly the way it was pronounced in our ancient times.

Lets be super proud of our traditions & continue to eternity. if you listen to half baked people, then you will get only half baked results.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

One of our friends was not knowing the Kula Deivam and he went to Rameshwaram.
The astrologers on going through the horoscopes suggested remedy for Pitru dosham
and suggested pariharam there itself.

He has also suggested to pray Chakrathaazhwaar the following version
and keep on reciting whenever time permits by the family members.

Kanaga rachidha chakram bhaasura ramya chakram
Girivara guru chakram keshava swamy chakram
Asura nidhana chakram kaala dhandaagni chakram
Bhavadu bhavadhu chakram bhaandhavo vishnu chakram.

Besides they did Thila Homam and as suggested by the Astrologer, went to Kula Deivam
temple and they are now peaceful.

Balasubramanian

 

[renuka]

Many cutures & civilizations (Vedic, Greek, Egyptian, Inca, Mesapotamia etc..) have/had many many Gods, prayers, numerous traditions etc.. Only Christianity & Islam have moved to a only 1 God Concept. Both are perfectly okay for the faithful who follow each religion. All co-exist in our world.

For those of us following the Vedic religion, we continue our traditions, rituals, customs & worship many many Gods. Why follow traditions ?. It moves us towards Bhakti, ensure we are rooted strongly in the path of righteousness, not stray way into the wrong path, & ultimately lead to salvation.

for most people who are not rich, they have to chase material goals for livelyhood for their family (many in this forum did that in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s & now preaching to others why chase physical goals !!). The traditions provides us with a strong moral & religious fabric & continue with life's necessities.

The faithful in all religions will religiously follow with great fervour, the others can go their way & perform all lilas in life & enjoy the fruits of their actions.

for the traditionalist & only the traditionalist (Both Brahmins & NBs), my advise is please continue the traditions without fail & ensure your kids, grand kids follow them without fail / ensure you explain what happens when they dont follow & how the family will dis-integrate if they dont. Read my earlier post.

Our anscetors treasured the sanskrit texts against all odds, ensured a oral recantation process to preserve almost all of the texts in exactly the way it was pronounced in our ancient times.

Lets be super proud of our traditions & continue to eternity. if you listen to half baked people, then you will get only half baked results.

Dear Sir,

Every culture has their own history..we Hindus also have history but that does not mean we have to re enact history over and over again like some soul lost in the portal of delusion.

That way I can say that none of us are following culture cos we have abandoned Bullock Carts as mode of transport and are using cars now.

So same way...each country/race in this world had it's own tradition which is now in the archives of history..but NOT forgotten.

I see no harm as some member suggested that to take Paramatma as the Kula Devata and go on with life.
Seeing Kula Devata as a separate entity from Paramatma is the root cause of all the confusion.

Why can't we Hindus just try to focus in one direction for a change?

We have multiple directions syndrome and finally even recite mantras without knowing the meaning.

I am not saying that knowledge is everything but at least we need to progress in the right direction with some amount of understanding that everything is the One and Only God and all of us are but a reflection of God.

This type of thinking will foster unity among men and the world will indeed be a more peaceful place to stay.

As long we humans still have the thoughts of "My God..Your God"..there is no scope for anything.

I feel its is better for people to be Atheists instead of being religiously confused.

Religion needs a revolution so that it makes our mind progress and evolve for benefit of mankind otherwise there is no use reciting Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu.

And for your last line...I disagree that we need to be super proud of anything.
What have we brought that we need to be super proud?

We came empty handed and leave empty handed..we are leading a loaned existence from God.

Being super proud only diminishes the Mahima of God.

After all pride is one of the Arishadvargas(6 enemies of man)..even there only pride is listed and not "super pride".

 

[suraju06]

Krishna says in the Bhagavad-Gita, Chapter 18 – verse 66:
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah
Abandon all kinds of dharma,
abandon all action, abandon all duty,
and surrender to Me.
I will protect you, do not fear.

The interpretation is from an advaitin's standpoint. The other view point is given just for information.

What must we renounce? What must we abandon? We must abandon what in Hinduism, we call maya, or “illusion.” We must abandon the material world in order to surrender, and be taken by the spiritual. But what does this mean?

Maya is not what is spoken of here. A simple reading would suggest that the mam ekam stresses that you should give up all hopes of salvation through other routes (sarva dharman). Ma sucah suggests that what is required is the realisation that the atma is akinchanya. Thus what is stressed is akinchanyam and ananya gatitvam. Once these two requirements are met paramatma delivers you.

We must renounce our mental world, which is made of bubbles; we must renounce our past, that past that we project as an imagination upon the future; we must renounce our expectations. We must renounce this mental world, in order to give ourselves up, surrender ourselves, to reality, to Krishna, to what is.

The world is real. It is not a mental projection or hallucination. The life is real. The subject is real. The object is real. These are not mere imaginations or, as Bharathi wonders, தோற்றப்பிழைகள்.

It is a renouncing of all that we think we should be, because it does not solely consist of your expectations, or your hopes. If you look deeply, you will see that perhaps you wish to fulfill the expectations of your mother or father, which are interconnected with the expectations of your grandparents, your family. We must renounce all of this.

If you can stand away from yourself(in a manner of saying) and look at all the things, understand the bondage and the misery, understand your real swaroopam and attach your self to paramatman with true devotion it will do a lot of good to you. If you have not spiritually evolved to that level, it enough if you do saranagati-total surrender-to God.

I do not think we should abandon faith in Krishna's words.

Yes.

The other view point is given only in a summary. Details are beyond the scope here.

I completely attest SriRaju's post #92 of Srivaishnava's stand. But, his case is only for those GajendrAs, who wanted to be rescued (from drowning) only for liberation. In this case, he had a cellphone (mind ), to work at that time (free of karma), and the helicopter that right away picks him up to safety (Vishnu's grace) available. Like in this news today:
Hunter Falls Through Ice on Colorado River - ABC News

No. The point is not understood well. It is not for those who want to be liberated so that they can reach Vaikunta. In Vaishnava sampradhaya you do saranagati(fully realizing its meaning and method of doing) and then wait for the death when Srimannarayana will give you moksha. "Ethath dEhAvasAnE mAm thwatpAdam prApaya swayam" is the usual prayer every day. You can continue your life with business as usual taking care only to see that you dont do anything that will displease the God(akrityAnancha karanam, krityAnAm varjanam). Only if you desire release immediately you become an Arthaprapanna and prescription for you is slightly different.

If someone is drowning, he is not interested in final destination even (liberation/moksha). He first thinks of getting to safety. He wants to cling to something (to escape the fear/panic/anxiety conceived by mind). Samsara is no different from such trauma, when we are not educated, composed already. This is exactly why, our shastras advise on disciplining our mind, body and self/soul from young age. We have gone hay-wire, and when danger ensues, it comes in loads, which one will we attend, as we haven't organized or planned ourselves.

Get to safety by all means. After getting there continue to live your life happily and peacefully taking care not to do forbidden things as explained above. You can wait for the death to come in its natural course. No need to do any difficult tapas for self realization or no need to lose your way in a tantalizing samadhi.

So, to focus our mind, just start with any thing that they can concentrate, plus, the path for which their relatives, neighbors can support. Like in Kunjuppu's reply, if you venture on our own, to the words of Krishna, how are you sure to get support from the relatives who are shiva or devi or ayyanar devoted? So, these people are seeking to raise up, just get the family support (for other reasons too). So, just let them seek any deivam, our learned brahmins themselves would entertain any deity, as a psychological relief , to bring them to normal, independent living.

The life has to be lived by each one by themselves individually. You can not even make your closest darling relative understand what kind of a pain experience you are going through when you suffer from it due to a cut injury. This being the reality there is no assurance that you can have a common experience -a clearly definable common experience-by the advaitic prescription of enjoying in a universal consciousness. It is just so much of alphabet soup without any flavour. So relatives or no relatives your journey of life is your own. Moreover relatives may not always lead you to safety. They may even take you along with them when they drown.

Cheers.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

After more than 100 posts, it is time to draw conclusions based on the discussions.


To the basic question of Do all Brahmins need Kula Dhaivam?

The answer is NO. They do not need one. It is not necessary.

Most of the Brahmins do not have a Kula Devata.

The Brahmins mode of worship is Panchyathana or worship of five deities for Smarthas. For Vaishnavas it is Narayana or Vishnu.

Families who have Kula Dhaivam worship the Kula Dhaivam. That does not mean that every Brahmin should have a Kula dhaivam or go around searching for Kula Dhaivam.

The worship of Kula Devata or Kula Dhaivam is not mentioned in any of the Sasthras. Not in Vedas, Not In Puranas, Not in Dharmasasthra, Not in Mahabharata, Not in Ramayana. Not in any of the teachings of any of the Acharyas, past and present.

There is no shred of evidence that All Brahmins/Hindus need Kula Devatas.

Worshiping the Kula Dhaivam is the tradition in some families. But that does not make it a Brahminical/Hindu tradition.


If your astrologer or any so called magazine talks about Kula Dhaivam, please remember this.

Kula devata worship is against all the standard margas of Hinduism like Bhakthi, Karma and Jnana.

Again when some one talks about தெய்வ குற்றம் (dhaiva kurram )please note that

"தெய்வ குற்றம்" என்பது எந்த வேதத்திலும்,புராணத்திலும் இல்லாத ஒரு கோட்பாடாகும். பஞ்சமாபாதகம் என சொல்வார்கள்.அது கூட தெய்வ குற்றம் கிடையாது. பாவத்திலும் பெரும்பாவம்,மன்னிப்பே இல்லாத பாவம் என சொல்லப்படுவது பாகவத அபச்சாரம் தான்.அதாவது பக்தர்களை துன்புறுத்துவது. அதற்கு பகவானால் மனிப்பு தர முடியாதாம். அந்த பக்தர்களாலேயே தர இயலுமாம்.

பகவான் அபச்சாரத்தை கூட பொறுக்கலாம்,பாகவத அபச்சாரத்துக்கு மன்னிப்பில்லை என்பார்கள்.

தெய்வ குற்றம் என்பது சொல்வடை மட்டுமே. நிஜமல்ல.

This concept of தெய்வ குற்றம் or Sin against God is not in Vedas, Puranas or epics.

Please do not waste your time searching for Kula Dhaivam. Pray to your family deity or favorite deity. That will help mitigate the effect of purva jenma Karmas.

What I am emphasizing and which is the idea behind this thread is that one should not run searching for Kula Devata. One should pray to his/her Ishta devata or any Deity to whom he/she has always prayed.

Do not get disheartened just because you do not have a Kula devata.

You do not need a Kula Devata.

Please remember that Astrologers are not qualified to be Religious advisers.

If you are facing problems in life, take refuge in GOD.

 

[praveen]

Thread closed as requested by OP.