God Exists

[renuka]

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TKS you said:

Once again, I am not a believer, non-believer or not an atheist and not into agnosticism

Wow Advaita in its purest sense,

Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

35 pages, 346 posts, 377 likes, lot of vitriol, assumptions, misrepresentation, complete fabrication, all in an attempt to mock and ridicule, never addressing the title of the thread, only time the proponents of the proposition came close to the topic is when they offered lot of hocky pocky and claims of "superior logic", never once stating their position clearly and giving a succinct argument in its support. Why is it so hard to stick to topic and respect each other.

How about dropping all the shenanigans and returning to the topic. I have stated my position very clearly and have also answered all the serious objections. Instead of offering silly analogies, condescending mocks about my limitations to see superior logic, self congratulatory kudos and patronizing snides, offer your best arguments -- why do you think the proposition made in the OP is valid?

Cheers!

sir:

I confess I am not a realized soul like Bhagawan Ramana. Here are his
thoughts compiled by David Godman . Since the conversation is lengthy
I am giving the link :

God

 

[Nara]

...Most of us are ignorant of the Truth and need God to blow away the clouds of of wrong doings and protect us... the ignorant.

Renu, you state a lot of stuff as though they are self evident, but never offer anything by way of why these are so. It is probably time now for you to justify what you say.

You are right about human beings being ignorant of many things -- but I suspect we are probably talking about different things we are ignorant of. In fact the situation is probably even more serious, I think that we probably may never fully realize what exactly we are ignorant of.

Further, on a technicality, you are probably right about needing a god to blow away our ignorance, if only there is such a god to whom we can turn to. Alas, this god, who is supposed to have all these powers you so often talk about, is not Rama, not Krishna, not Shiva, not even Sai, in fact there is no evidence that there is any such god who cares to remove our ignorance -- if such a god exists it does not have any valid reason to not blow our ignorance away already, what is it waiting for?

I request you Renuka, if you can, without resorting to the usual conflations and condescending put downs, tell me as directly as you can, what do you have in way of neutral evidence to show this god of yours exists.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...I confess I am not a realized soul like Bhagawan Ramana. Here are his thoughts compiled by David Godman . Since the conversation is lengthy I am giving the link :

Dear Shri NRR, thank you for the link, but sir, in my years in pursuit of the riddle, I have come across many such expositions. I respect your admiration for Bhagawan Ramana, but he holds no automatic authority for me, his words are acceptable to me only to the extent they do not stray outside the realm of rational thought.

Sir, I have already stated my objections several times. Please feel free to offer your comments on them. I will be happy to engage you in a discussions. But, please be forewarned, I cannot accept unverified handed down wisdom.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

It seems people are talking different languages and there is definitely a need to clearly state what one means by the terms that one uses.

For my part let me define the terms I frequently use. I start with the definition of what can be termed purely spiritual:

"One that is not bound by space and time or in other words one that transcends space and time"

eg: God

We say God is everywhere in space and time.

 

[DrBarani]

"One that is not bound by space and time or in other words one that transcends space and time"

eg: God

Sravna! You are not listening to me! You must prove God to me without using your words, thoughts, common sense, mouth, hand, or computer keyboard!

 

[renuka]

Renu, you state a lot of stuff as though they are self evident, but never offer anything by way of why these are so. It is probably time now for you to justify what you say.

You are right about human beings being ignorant of many things -- but I suspect we are probably talking about different things we are ignorant of. In fact the situation is probably even more serious, I think that we probably may never fully realize what exactly we are ignorant of.

Further, on a technicality, you are probably right about needing a god to blow away our ignorance, if only there is such a god to whom we can turn to. Alas, this god, who is supposed to have all these powers you so often talk about, is not Rama, not Krishna, not Shiva, not even Sai, in fact there is no evidence that there is any such god who cares to remove our ignorance -- if such a god exists it does not have any valid reason to not blow our ignorance away already, what is it waiting for?

I request you Renuka, if you can, without resorting to the usual conflations and condescending put downs, tell me as directly as you can, what do you have in way of neutral evidence to show this god of yours exists.

Cheers!

The proof of God existing is..

 

[ShivKC]

Here is the Act of God in display! Showing "middle finger" at people, a low character!!

Enjoy your Vedas!

so much talked about middle finger, and people are not convinced with the context.. how about this post dug from archives.. this context must be ok, i think.

NARA post 46:Renu, I don't understand why you are not able to see Megh's POV. For her, she wants to be able to enter the temple on her own terms, not under false pretenses. She wants to give the middle finger to the man made rules and I support her 100%. Why should she care to enter a place where she is told she is unwelcome on certain days, the loss is not hers as far as I am concerned.

Cheers!

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6671-thinking-english-its-been-60-years-post-independence-5.html



lets move on, please.

 

[Nara]

The proof of God existing is..

is what? Nothing? I agree!!!

 

[renuka]

is what? Nothing? I agree!!!

Hai Allah!!! you couldnt see it?

 

[sravna]

Hai Allah!!! you couldnt see it?

Neat !!!

 

[DrBarani]

Here is one proof...:

"If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason — for then we should know the mind of God.”

Book: A Brief History of Time
Year: 1988
Author: Stephen Hawking

Oh wait! HAWKING?!! CAN'T BE!! SOMEBODY HELP!!!! Damm, I must find some other "authority" from now on. Let me look for someone who is a Stalinist Leninist Maoist Trotskyite Straussian!

 

[tks]

Science Exists?

We have had many conversations between those that say God exists and those that dont!

Let is see how a debate will happen in this forum between a person who is a non-believer in Science(N) and a Scientist (Dr)

N: Prove to me Science Exists. You cannot use scientific reasoning to prove science exists.

Dr: Well there are many laws that are known to be true, experiments have been conducted and lots of books and papers have been written by many

N: I have been through a few of the books - it is all filled with greek symbols ; It has no meaning - inane stuff. I am not sure if these symbols will last many more years

Dr: They are not symbols, you have to learn mathematics because that is the language of science

N: Tell me I dont know, put me down - there is this conspiracy for people of Science to feel exclusive, and they use all these greek symbols so they can feel exclusive and feel superior. Can you summarize it in simple terms - tell me why I should know Science Exists. I will only accept clear and cogent explanation

Dr: Well there is this scientific method - Newton was a great scientist and his work is seminal ..

N: I have heard about Newton, I know - but let us be honest - I dont want any of these handed down wisdom! Can you describe simply that Science exists

Dr: Let us take Newton - An apple fell on his head and he asked why the apple should fall - it is a human curiosity and then he approached with study as to why it fell ..

N: wait - there is problem right there ..

Dr. What?

N: How do you automatically assume that apple hit Newton's head. It is possible that Newton's head might have hit the apple too?

Dr: Well, Newton was sitting or standing and how could he go up

N: Well there is this paradox .. It is possible that there is universal law of expansion - everything could expand equally that no one is aware because proportionally perception is the same. So if Newton's head could have expanded and hit the apple. So we really cant tell if apple hit Newton's head or Newton's head hit the apple. This is a paradox that cannot be answered - there cannot be any science. I do agree that something happened between Apple and Newton's head. Until we know what the answer is I will remain agnostic ..

Dr: Speechless - Not sure you can get this

N: **8@#&

Dr: **(0#$

N: This is not getting anywhere - how can you say **(0#$; total put down and I am appalled

Dr: well it was generally said for fun

N: Let us maintain a decorum, we have talked for a while and yet there are no answers. Let us restart the discussions !
...

...

,,,



N: How about another round of discussion .. This time let us stick to the topic!

 

[zebra16]

When it comes to scientists, an overwhelming 80% are non-believers. Tyson, in one of his speeches, remarked that it is a wonder that as many as 20% of scientists express belief in some kind of supernatural entity. Cheers!

I do not know what is the use of numbers game here. "Overwhelming 80% (scientists) are non-believers". So, ipso-facto, they (80% bracket) are correct?

If such numbers game is to be applied to theists and atheists, theists have won hands down without lifting even the little finger.

 

[sravna]

Definition 2:Freewill

"The possession of freedom to be the sole cause of one's thoughts and actions"

 

[Brahin]

Someone took a bet with me that by posting some dumb joke about theist and atheist this will become the busiest thread.
I didnt believe that person and that person told me that dont worry God Exists it will be the busiest thread and boy,its sure is.


I lost the bet,therefore God exists!!

 

[renuka]

(a) Modern Physics is an exemplification and a refinement of old Hindu wisdom- contained in Vedas (Julius R Oppenheimer- Father of Atom bomb)
(b) After the study of Indian philosophy (derived from Vedas), some of the ideas of Quantum physics that seemed so crazy, suddenly made much more sense (father of Quantum Physics Werner Heisenberg).
© Science in the most advanced stage now is closer to Vedanta than ever before. (Alfred North Whitehead)
Modern science has yet to comprehend, Vedic spiritual and physical sciences.
Rtam, Satyam, Dharmam” (Rig Veda)- Cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths and following these laws (Rta) is Vedic Dharma. All human beings can discover these laws (Rta) by developing Scientific Temper.
Subject: Vedic Physical Sciences and Scientific Temper
Dear Seekers of Vedic Knowledge,
What our ancient heritage scriptures Vedas say about physical sciences, role of scientists (ashvinaus) and scientific temper, a brief note is given below.
To get a feel of Vedic physical sciences, reference to a few hymns are given.
The Sun never sets or rises and it is the earth, which rotates (Sama-Ved 121). The gravitational effect of solar system makes the earth stable (R.V.1-103-2, 1-115-4 and 5-81-2). The axle of the earth does not get rusted and the earth continues to revolve on its axle (R.V. 1-164-29). The science of Time and its subtle nature is described in (R.V.1-92-12 and 1-95-8). The need to study the properties of water, air and fire for discovering and manufacturing aircrafts, ships and other vehicles capable of moving in the firmament, land and water are mentioned in Rig Veda 1-3-1,2, 1-34-1, 1-140-1 and many other hymns. Reference to infinite number of both gross and subtle atoms and the energy principle as spirit of God in each atom is given in R.V. 5-47-2 and Sama Veda 222. Atoms and sub atomic particles are not inert and have unsuspected vitality owing to this energy principle. Physical sciences relating to agriculture, medicine, astronomy mathematics particularly algebra, toxicology etc. are described in R.V.1-71-9, 4-57-5, Sama Veda 121 and many other hymns.
In the Vedas scientists are described as men and women of absolute self-control, truthful with scientific outlook and destroyers of miseries (R.V., 1-3-4). With the help of these scientists one could travel far on the earth and also in the sky through conveyances, which run and touch the middle region (R.V. 1-3-1, 6-22-2 and 1-22-2). Such scientists from both the sexes go across to distance places quickly like the mind and electricity (R.V. 1-71-9). In this hymn aircrafts and even space ships are hinted. These ashvinausshould be well versed in Physics, agricultural sciences (R.V. 4-57-5), medical sciences (R.V. 5-74-3), astronomy (S.V. 121) and other sciences. Ashvinaushave been advised to learn thoroughly about Prakrti (divine Nature), characteristics and various qualities of water, air, fire, electricity and heat and sound energy. Other sciences mentioned are Toxicology and use of various kinds of medicines and drugs (R.V 1-191-14), science of Time (Kala vidya) that starts with dawn (Usha). R.V. 1-95-2, and 10, refers to use of time for mathematics. There is a mention of infra red rays, study of Algebra (Rekha di ganit vidya), sound as a medium of knowledge for various sciences, diseases like bile, cough, jaundice and others and their treatment etc. The relevant hymns in this regard are in Rig-Veda 1-185-2, 1-12-1, 2, 1-22-1 to 4, 1-2-3, 1-95-1, 1-101-1 and many others.

However, the greater emphasis is on the development of Scientific Temper amongst the members of Society with a view to curb spread of blind faith, hypocrisy, miracle and ostentatious worship of God. Thus the knowledge of Vedic sciences is meant to save the human beings from falling into an utter darkness as Isa Upanishad and the last chapter of Yajur Veda caution us. The unity in diversity is the message of Vedic physical and metaphysical sciences. While matter is the cause of diversity owing to three primordial subtle particles of purity, activity and passivity present in it, the spirit (jiva) provides the necessary unity.
To encourage scientific temper Vedas advise, “O, Man Explore further.” Kindly see for more details on Vedic Science- about Earth, Sun, Gravitation, Moon, Eclipse, telegraphy, ships, aircrafts and many other http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org
The Vedas combine science with metaphysics and clearly mention that it is God who is the giver of knowledge of all sciences as "Sahstra sam " (R.V. 1-10-11). The scientists are advised to study cause and effect of all material elements and also how the objects are produced and there after utilize these properly (R.V. 5-47-3). By following these guidelines they can alleviate much suffering of the people (R.V. 5-77-4). Without the knowledge and practical application of physical sciences, it is not possible to eradicate poverty and attain prosperity (R.V. 1-34-1 to 5).
For more details on Vedic science and many other divine, spiritual and material Vedic subjects kindly see “Glimpses of Vedic Metaphysics” available on Internet for on line reading and even taking print at no cost. The website is http://www.sabhlokcity.com/metaphysics. Also the book can be accessed through google.com, yahoo.com, lulu.com. Search for the book or Vedic Metaphysics.
Kindly render divine social service and forward to other seekers of Vedic knowledge.
Kindly also feel free to improve this Vedic Message strictly based on Ved mantras, riks/hymns.
With kind regards,
Prem Sabhlok
P.S
Vedas say in regard to scientific temper “O: Man Explore further”
For more knowledge of Vedic Science as obtained from Arya Samaj Jamnagar
For movement of Earth refer to R.V 10-22-14, R.V 10-149-1 (Gravitational force of Sun), R.V 8-12-28 and 30, 1-6-5 for the power of Sun to hold the Earth and other planets, Moving planets do not collide R.V 1-164-13, Y.V 33-43, A.V 4-11-1
Eclipse
Rrefer to R.V 5-40-5---the earth gets scared by sudden darkness when O: Surya you are blocked by the one to whom you have gifted your own light (Moon).
On the science of Telegraphy and aircraft and ship building refer to RV 1-119-10, RV 1-116-3,4,5 and 6, 11-134-2 and 7, 1-148- 8
Kindly see original mantras at Website http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org
2. For Science of Good Governance in Secular Democracy, you may like to read and comment the latest Free e-book by an Ex I.A.S officer having over 27 years administrative experience in India and Australia. Website ishttp://bfn.sabhlokcity.com
The hard copy is available in Oxford Book Stores and also Lulu.com.

 

[sravna]

As a note on freewill consider this:

Actions which are caused in the body is controlled by thoughts. Actions representing the physical expression and thoughts representing the mental expression. If one logically proceeds thoughts which are mental would be controlled by the spirtiual. That is God controls everything.

Man has a free hand in the affairs of the world but rememeber God has a free hand in the affairs of the man.

 

[zebra16]

We have had many conversations between those that say God exists and those that dont!

Let is see how a debate will happen in this forum between a person who is a non-believer in Science(N) and a Scientist (Dr)

Hold on there. Not so fast !!

Does he fulfill all the norms that are required in the USA to be called a Dr.? Unless you give me such a guarantee, I shall not read the rest of the post.

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi, please consider the following from Wiki:

In Western culture, the finger (as in giving someone the finger), also known as the middle finger, is an obscene hand gesture, often meaning the phrase "%@#k you" or "up yours". (emphasis and obscuring offensive word are mine)

​

In my world, this never passes as a joke, especially coming from somebody unknown to me.

Alright Ravi, if you are ready to take the high road that is something I welcome. Why don't you address the title of this thread without resorting to hocus pocus of superior logic. It is proposed that "God Exists". Make your best case in the affirmative, will you?

Cheers!

Ayya,

I did all to substantiate God exists. Many other theist members here did so. The problem is you seem to have decided to ignore grasping the messages. You are a professor and you teach your students only the practical, tangible, laboratory tested, scientific stuffs. Perhaps that's the reason you could not make up your mind to consider theist messages sensible and dwell deep into it to understand "God exist"

But still I have no disappointments with you. You are playing your part perfectly as a professor, as per the wish of the God..

Below I have extracted a part of my post #213, asking Shri Yamaka to answer. The message in the extract is my answer to Shri Yamaka’s question.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Sri Yamaka,

In your post #206, you asked this question -

2. Do Gods control every movement of everything in this world?


In my post #209, I answered your question, like this -

If every questions are solvable and answerable by us, than for sure we can never ever make death a possibility in this world.

However the world advances in science and technology with all high-end micro mini chips, the ultimate remote is in the hands of the God.

1)We can enjoy the comfort of our discoveries, but can't make men to get pregnant and deliver baby

2) Can not sustain Sun 24 hours to provide light, can not produce a unique plant/flower/fruits/vegetable as a new variety

3) Can not avoid the outburst of the violent volcano / cyclone / earthquake etc..

4) Can not convert a 5 years young child to a grown up adult in his/her 6th year

5) Can not avoid death

6) Can not hold the time

7) Can not rewind and fast forward the time

...There are many such things, that this advanced scientific world can never achieve.

Instead of giving your response to the above answer, you are repeatedly echoing the same grumbling of the sufferers
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ayya,

If you could scientifically prove the possibilities of all the above impossibilities, I shall join you to debate against theists.

Since you don’t want any super logic, things beyond space and time paradoxes and anything that can not be laboratory tested, I would like to stick to the above questions and wish to have your scientific explanations, substantially to consider things are possible by science and technology and "Assumed God has nothing to do here".

 

[renuka]

vidheH prayatnasya cha ko.pi vAda -
tayordvayormUlamajAnatAM syAt|
vidheH prayatnasya cha mUlavastu
sa~njAnatAM naiva vidhirna yatnaH||

It is possible to debate on fate and free will for them who them who know not the source of both.
To them who knows well the source of fate and free will,there is neither fate nor free will.


Fate and free will are only actions and actions depend on the doer of actions.
one becomes the doer only with the reference to the actions.

To the realized soul..Action is done with the body.The actor is the wielder of the body.If I am neither the body nor its wielder,but the Witnessing Consciousness of both,how can actions or the results incurred thereof,affect Me?


Saddarshana Ramana Maharishi.

 

[renuka]

I often wondered Is there any method where we can measure the speed of a Thought in our Mind?

 

[renuka]

Sravna forgive me for quoting you,
You said:

Man has a free hand in the affairs of the world but rememeber God has a free hand in the affairs of the man.​

Dr Barani had a free HAND in the affairs of man too..Therefore God exists!!!

 

[sravna]

I often wondered Is there any method where we can measure the speed of a Thought in our Mind?

Renuka,

I am not sure if any scientific knowledge exists on this. My guess would be thoughts travel instantly anywhere and in fact should be everywhere in space instantly since it is mental energy. The reason we do not receive others thoughts could be because of varying frequencies of each person's thoughts. Thoughts that have a constant energy and not confined to any frequency I would say is spiritual in nature.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

I am not sure if any scientific knowledge exists on this. My guess would be thoughts travel instantly anywhere and in fact should be everywhere in space instantly since it is mental energy. The reason we do not receive others thoughts could be because of varying frequencies of each person's thoughts. Thoughts that have a constant energy and not confined to any frequency I would say is spiritual in nature.

You have a point.May be we dont receive thought waves of others partly to the fact that in most of us the Kundalini has not crossed the main Three Granthi(Brahma Granthi,Vishnu Granthi and the Rudra Granthi)

But in those who are very well emotionally connected we can pick up each others thoughts and anxiety even though we might be 1000 miles away.I am sure all of us have gone through this.