Hinduism Vs Rest

[NARAS]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

sir - the dmk govt. of t.nadu has been recklessly and dangerously releasing doles after doles out of tax payers money. it is very difficult to appreciate the necessity of doling out color television sets! if more people have television sets, will not need & consumption of electricity in the state increase? do we have so much of electricity in t.nad? is there any contingency plan in case of shortage of electric power? will it not lead to possible increase in electric tariff? there are questions...questions...questions...! but no answers!!!!!!!!

 

[NARAS]

Most of Goundamani's problem seem to come from the fact of incorrect comparison.
Apple is a fruit, orange is a fruit. What is wrong in making apple juice out of orange?


Temple is business, Running a country is businesss. Anybody can run any business, what is wrong in anybody running a temple?

Engineering admission is a process, preaching is a process. Why not apply quota to preaching?

He has completely forgotten that, religion is different and governance is different in a secular country. As long as the laws of the land are not interfered with, the government cannot interfere with religious activities.

Its like applying this logic to eating -Mouth is a hole a** is also a hole. What is wrong in eating with an a**.

sir - places of worship are like sporting events. the rules , regulations for various sports are controlled not by any national or international govts. these rules are framed by international associations of various games, and no govt. has any direct role in this! like that temples are not places where govts. have a role,even if these places of worship may seem like violating govt. objectives.!! just like international cricket committee, olympic committee, temple agamas are above governmental interference!!!!!!!!!

 

[murali]

Kind Attention: Admn.
What is the substance behind the allegation.

Acharyal has scrupulously avoided politics.I cant believe acharyal made statements on dalits to the press.Please do not spread disinformation.

 

[silverfox]

Need proof for the allegation

There might have been racial discrimination in christianity but thats all long long long in the history. It is this adaptability of christianity that has made it the largest religion. With untouchability and other nonsesne still in vogue with Hindus we are just sitting on a religion which has no future because of the fact it is the only religion which discriminates its followers!!!!

Do you say slavery did not exist in Hinduism? Even Raja harishchandra's wife and kids were slave.

I live in the US for the past 8 years. I dont see any racial discrimination as rampant as the caste discrimination which Dalits face in India.

Parading of Dalits in naked, killing dalits for eating beefs , debaring dalits from pulling temple cars etc., are still practiced widely in India.

It is better we plug in those than trying to point a non-existent stuff in another religion. Discrimination is the norm in hinduism whereas it is just a small samll unheard of abberation in christianity.

To say the truth the shankarachariyal of sringeri has said he does not mind getting arrested under the discrimination act rather than he mingling with Dalits. Does even a bishop says like that leave alone pope.

Dear Kabali:
Re: Your quotation in red above. Please, can you provide tangible proof that the Shankarachariyal of Sringeri (I confess my ignorance; I didn't know that there are other Shankaracharyas besides the Kanchi Acharya!) actually uttered those statements.

While I am a staunch supporter of freedom of speech in this forum, I have to respect other members' feelings, too. We need to balance both.

 

[goundamani]

Most of Goundamani's problem seem to come from the fact of incorrect comparison.
Apple is a fruit, orange is a fruit. What is wrong in making apple juice out of orange?

Apple is a fruit,orange is a fruit.Apple cannot become orange and orange cannot become apple.

But all 4 varnas are not like apples and oranges.All are human.In every way they are similiar to each other.One varna cannot claim it ha special previleage over others.

Temple is business, Running a country is businesss. Anybody can run any business, what is wrong in anybody running a temple?

Temple is service,running a country is service.Both of them are not businesses.Anybody with a mindset to serve can rule the country or become priest in the temple.

Engineering admission is a process, preaching is a process. Why not apply quota to preaching?

Actually currently we have 100% quota in priest jobarty:

He has completely forgotten that, religion is different and governance is different in a secular country. As long as the laws of the land are not interfered with, the government cannot interfere with religious activities.

When 100% quotas are given to one caste for a government job law of the land is indeed violated.That is why government has to interefere in temples.You cannot claim untouchability to be a 'religious activity'.

Its like applying this logic to eating -Mouth is a hole a** is also a hole. What is wrong in eating with an a**.

I can understand that allowing sudhras to do poojas in temples appears to some people to equal to eating through A**.I hope that they have a change of heart soon.

 

[goundamani]

sir -the main argument tearfully put forward by 'rationalists' is that only bramins are priests in temples. but actually, even among brahmins only a very miniscule minority form priestly class. they are pure vegetarians, teetotallers who have dedicated their entire life to service to god. unlike other religions there is no scope of conversion in orthodox hinduism. so only a person by birth can become a priestly brahmin.

Nobody wants to become priestly brahmins.People want to become priests.In other castes we have equally good teetotallers and vegetarians.Good virtues are not the exculisve priveliege of one caste

there is NO provision for converts. the'rationalists' are confusing brahminism with other religions. actually priesthood is not a commercial employment . it is a service which needs dedication, respect, knowledge, commitment , sacrifice etc. there are many among even brahmins who will not qualify for this. only priestly class have the necessary credentials in their blood and genes for this. i do not think even i , though a devotional brahmin will qualify for this!

Nobody gets any qualities like sacrifice,knolwedge etc through blood and genes.For no job in the world birth is a qualification.Arguing that only one race has these qualities by birth is called by dictionary as this

why are 'rationalists' so eager to push anti bramins & non bramins into this unremunerative income? they would do well to drop this idea like they dropped 'dravidanadu' due to threat by nehru to ban organisations preaching secessionism.

Because discrimination by law on basis of casteism is illegal and immoral.That is why they want this law to be scrapped.

it is the 'rationalists' who are asking for a change. so if they want change let them construct new temples and appoint non brahmins as priest. let not bramins be allowed inside these temples. let bramins be banned from being priests, employers r administrators in these temples. but why tamper with existing arrangements when you do not have the authority to do so?

who said supreme court doesnt have the authority inside temples?Does the indian constitution have no application inside temples?

there are temples all over india and all over world. nowhere has any govt. tried to impose non brahmins or anti bramins in bramin temples. this is because there is no violation of law in persons of particular religion monopolising priesthood in places of worship of that religion. brahminism was a separate religion once upon a time. so only bramins were appointed as priests,employees & administrators in brahmin temples, even if it was funded or constructed by non brahmins!!!

These temples are not brahmin temples.They belong to whole society.

A temple where a brahmin works doesnt become brahmin temple.If ramasamy works in a shop,it doesnt become ramasami's temple.

discrimination means one set of persons not allowing same set of persons inside.for e.g. muslim in various parts of world, christians in many parts of world clashing with each other etc.,. but what is happening in temples is not discrimination.

Only people belonging to a particular caste are allowed to become priests and allowed inside garbagraha.when somebody from other caste has those qualifications,he is still denied entry into garbagraha.Is that not discrimination?Is that not untouchability?

this is a particular style of worship, peculiar to brahminism. this is the beauty of brahminism that even god & priestly class has restrictions in places of worship, which is not to be found in any other faith in the world!!! this is because temples are basically places built as mark of respect to god, not to propagate religions, just like places of worship of other faiths. that is why without even bothering about quantity & numbers, in orthodox hinduism, restrictions are placed on devotees, to preserve sanctity of temples!

Those restrictions are not beauty.They are discriminatory and casteist.These rules treat 97% of people as not having 'dedication, respect, knowledge, commitment , sacrifice by birth and genes'. Thus they are an insult to entire humanity.When other castes hear such rules and arguments certainly they feel humiliated.That is why they want to change this.

men are not allowed in women's colleges, associations etc. Is this discrimination.? any group not allowing other groups in their forum is not discrimination, even legally or constitutionally. it is the individual right of that group to determine who to be allowed, who not. it is freedom of speech.for e.g. if people of other caste are not even allowed in temples, that can be called discrimination . but here there is no restriction on entry. restriction is only on becoming owners, priest or employees. these restrictions are there even for brahmins! this is not at all discrimination.

Temples are not womens colleges or associations.They are for all people of all gender.Here no group shall claim that other groups cannot enter the sanctorium.Nobody has the individual right to practice discrimination by caste.Calling caste names and discriminating by caste doesnt fall under the purview of freedom of speech.

Once you make birth in a certain caste as the first essential quality of a job automatically it becomes discrimination.In the very first round itself you eliminate 97% of the population from becoming priests.

a place of worship of a religion, belongs to all believers of that religion. so anybody can enter as a devotee. but priesthood,employment & adminstration are specialist jobs. only specialists can do that!

Dalits and OBC's become engineers in nasa and multinational companies.They become preisdent and prime ministers of country.When they do such specalized jobs why do you think they dont have the ability to do a priests job?When so many nonbrahmins attained bhrammarishi status and become great men how can you say they dont have the ability and skills?

those who constructed temples did not want all & sundry, even among bramins,to become priets, employees or administrators. since temples were built only as a mart of respect to god, reasonable restrictions were imposed to preserve sanctity of the premises. an eye doctor cannot perform a heart surgery just because he is a doctor. like that, being a devotee does not qualify for becoming a priest!!!

Those who constructed temples did not want 'all and sundry' to enter temples too.They made dalits to stand outside temples.can we implement that rule now too?

Eye doctor cannot perform eye surgery.But people from any caste who has got an MBBS can do eye surgery.Similiarly anybody who gets trained can become priests.

gujarathi belongs to gujarathis. others can also learn them. but they cannot claim ownership. like that orthodox temples belong to orthodox hindus. others can visit them. but they cannot become priests, emplyees or administrators.

By law there is nothing called as orthodox temples,modern temples,ultra orthodox temples etc.
There are only hindu temples under HRCE which are open to all hindus for jobs and devotion.

tomorrow if brahmins become majority community in india, then the law can easily be altered to say that even in non brhmin temples, only brahmins can become archakas! i do not believe in the theory, that just because you are ina 'majority' you should always prevail over the minority even if truth and justice is not in your side!!

even if brahmins become majority,they should allow the current law to prevail.Because now while other castes are majority,they are not saying "bhramins should not become priests".They only are saying "everybody including brahmins,dalits,devars etc can become priests".This law should prevail during all times.

any person in this world can construct or build a temple and claim that he or his caste or their practices alone willbe followed in that temple. there is nothing illegal in this. the problem comes when you alter existing practices and impose you own agenda in the name of 'social justice' & 'equality"! there are s many temples , even in platforms, constructed by so many persons, following so many kinds of rituals! nobody is opposed to this.

Yes.Anyperson can build his temple from his own money in his own land and can levy whatever rule he deems fit.But the temples we talk about were build by kings for all 4 varnas and for all people.They belong to public.Brahmin priests were employed there.They were not given ownership of these temples.

any person can claim any right as citizen of india. like that brahmins can also claim rights as citizens of india and as bramins also!! BTW brahmin temples means temples which have bramins as their priests!

So change brahmin temples into Hindu temples.The word Hindu is inclusive.It also includes brahmins.It includes all 4 varnas.It is not divisive.It doesnt give exculisve rights to anybody.All are equal.

do you know that there are many countries which are flourishing democracies, but which allow monarchy! most famous examples are U.K., newzealand, canada, australia, japan, sweden, denmark, netherlands etc. so hereditary privileges in certain areas that too in private places is not a violation of rule of law. of course nobody can claim hereditary rights for posts of collector of a district. because it is not a private, but a public post!!

India doesnt retain monarchy.It is a free, democratic and secular country.There are no kings. "ellorum innattu mannar(we all are kings)".

 

[goundamani]

quotas in govt. jobs out of tax payers money is a violation of basic character of indian constitution which proclaims 'equality' for all . this cannot be taken sportively! this a tyranny of majority over minority! but monopoly of bramins in orthodox temples is not violation of law, because temples are not built or maintained by tax payers money or govt.funds! so they can be taken sportively by others!!!!!! what wrong will befall this world if bramins areallowed to continue as priests in orthodox temples???

Temples are run by people's money.As long as they get people's money they are public property.Why cant you take it sportively and allow dalits as priests/What wrong will befall the world?Will kaliyug end if this happens?

 

[goundamani]

goundamani sir,
There has been no demand for non-brahmana priests from the hindu community at large.Most hindus want the present system to continue.Why tamper with the temples,when other pressing issues demand our attention.

Dear pappan,

Social change will not come from public. It will come from leaders.Before ambedhkar and gandhi took up the cause of dalits, dalits never realized they had these rights. They were used to live as slaves without questioning anything.even during that time we had pressing issues like independence of nation, world wars , famines etc.Inspite of all this gandhi and ambedhkar fought for rights of dalits to enter temples.They did not think this to be an insignificant act.They knew that they were doing the most important job which was left pending for thousands of years.

Such reforms should have been done in hinduism during the period of alwars and nayanmars itself.But better be late than never.

 

[kudumi]

There are lot of temples where people other than Brahmins are priests.

Apple is a fruit,orange is a fruit.Apple cannot become orange and orange cannot become apple.

But all 4 varnas are not like apples and oranges.All are human.In every way they are similiar to each other.One varna cannot claim it ha special previleage over others.



Temple is service,running a country is service.Both of them are not businesses.Anybody with a mindset to serve can rule the country or become priest in the temple.



Actually currently we have 100% quota in priest jobarty:



When 100% quotas are given to one caste for a government job law of the land is indeed violated.That is why government has to interefere in temples.You cannot claim untouchability to be a 'religious activity'.



I can understand that allowing sudhras to do poojas in temples appears to some people to equal to eating through A**.I hope that they have a change of heart soon.

"Actually currently we have 100% quota in priest jobarty: ".
Wrong again. There are lot of temples in Tamilnadu, 2 temples of the 3 in our village has priests who are not brahmins.
I can quote a list of temples I visted where the priests are not brahmins.
Your allegations of untouchability is not an accurate representation of reality.
To say 100% quota, what data you have? I have shown cases where there are priests not brahmin. So it is not 100%. I and my family member and my relatives in my village have no hesitation going to temples served by priest who are not brahmin. If you have problem going to a temple which is served by a brahmin, it is your problem.

When we say that even iyengars cannot do gurukkal job in smartha temples, that is the end of it. Iyengars do not feel they are untouchables. So is the case with Smarthas. We cannot dream to become gurukkal in a vaishnavite temple. Each and every temple has its tradition. If you want to visit the temple, you adhere to the customs of the temple.
If you call yourself a hindu, follow the traditions of hinduism. If you do not, you are free to leave. Its not hinduism's lose anyway. Take your reforms and preachings elsewhere.

THe last part of my post was to just give an example of applying false logic. If you take it literally, it is your fault and not mine.

Try to come of the mindset seeing Brahmins as the root cause of all miseries. Analyse the sitution with an open mind.

And stop spreading false information on 100% quota stuff like that. Visit the temples (hope you are talking about the temples of tamilnadu only) and find for yourself. Till you find out and come back, pack off.

 

[goundamani]

"Actually currently we have 100% quota in priest jobarty: ".
Wrong again. There are lot of temples in Tamilnadu, 2 temples of the 3 in our village has priests who are not brahmins.I can quote a list of temples I visted where the priests are not brahmins.Your allegations of untouchability is not an accurate representation of reality.

I already said I talk about big temples like srirangam and chidambaram.

To say 100% quota, what data you have? I have shown cases where there are priests not brahmin. So it is not 100%. I and my family member and my relatives in my village have no hesitation going to temples served by priest who are not brahmin. If you have problem going to a temple which is served by a brahmin, it is your problem.

I dont have a problem going to temples which is served by brahmins.But I cannot accept that temples should be served only by brahmins.

When we say that even iyengars cannot do gurukkal job in smartha temples, that is the end of it. Iyengars do not feel they are untouchables. So is the case with Smarthas. We cannot dream to become gurukkal in a vaishnavite temple.

That's not the end of it.smarthas and iyengars cannot divide temples between themselves.All castes should be given equal rights in all temples.

Each and every temple has its tradition. If you want to visit the temple, you adhere to the customs of the temple.

each and every temple also had the tradition of appointing devadasis and not allowing harijans.Why was that tradition broken?

Tradition will be respected as long as it doesnt interfere with equality.

If you call yourself a hindu, follow the traditions of hinduism. If you do not, you are free to leave. Its not hinduism's lose anyway. Take your reforms and preachings elsewhere.

I have always called myself as a Hindu.But there are people who claimed that they belong to brahmanism and not hinduism.

I respect hindu traditions of jathikal illaidai pappa and onre kulam,oreuvane devan.As long as I live I will uphold these traditions.

THe last part of my post was to just give an example of applying false logic. If you take it literally, it is your fault and not mine.

I hope next time you give a disclaimer as of what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.It will avoid many confusions. Further in many places people might not take statements like these metaphorically.Just a friendly suggestion.

Try to come of the mindset seeing Brahmins as the root cause of all miseries. Analyse the sitution with an open mind.

And stop spreading false information on 100% quota stuff like that. Visit the temples (hope you are talking about the temples of tamilnadu only) and find for yourself. Till you find out and come back, pack off.

I have visited many temples in TN and am only saying what I observe.In all big temples of TN which have huge revenue and where government pays the salary, only brahmins are priests.In small village temples dalits and others are priests.Why is this so?

 

[NARAS]

Temples are run by people's money.As long as they get people's money they are public property.Why cant you take it sportively and allow dalits as priests/What wrong will befall the world?Will kaliyug end if this happens?

sir - a public property is one where all citizens have access to.but in temples only believers of that particular religion can go. so they are not public places like public toilets.a woman who is already married cannot entertain another man in her life. temple's are run by money voluntarily contributed by public. there is no compulsion to contribute. those who contribute voluntarily should not impose conditions or indulge in blackmailing. if their conditions are not complied, let them stop the contributions! temples are not dependent on contributors who want to tamper agamas. temples have so much of land incomes which are sufficient for them

 

[NARAS]

Apple is a fruit,orange is a fruit.Apple cannot become orange and orange cannot become apple.

But all 4 varnas are not like apples and oranges.All are human.In every way they are similiar to each other.One varna cannot claim it ha special previleage over others.



Temple is service,running a country is service.Both of them are not businesses.Anybody with a mindset to serve can rule the country or become priest in the temple.



Actually currently we have 100% quota in priest jobarty:



When 100% quotas are given to one caste for a government job law of the land is indeed violated.That is why government has to interefere in temples.You cannot claim untouchability to be a 'religious activity'.



I can understand that allowing sudhras to do poojas in temples appears to some people to equal to eating through A**.I hope that they have a change of heart soon.

sir = in orthodox hinduism, the belief of re birth is important. each and every man will be born in each & every varna in each & every birth. so the privilege for brahmin is only in the birth in which he is a brahmin. so brahmins can claim privilege over other varnas in private life. temples are private enclosures which are not subject to govt. whims. so any varna can claim superiority over others within the premises. civil laws of govt. do not apply inside temple premises.

anybody with a mindset to service , even if he is a brahmin, cannot become priest in temples. it is hereditary. temple laws were made in india, by indians for indians many centuries ago, unlike laws of foreign religions like islam, christianity which were made by foreigners, in foreigners for foreigners! may be this is why 'rationlists' do not like them! orthodox temples cannot be subject to govt. whims as they were built many many centuries, before 1947! govt. whims are applicable only for temples built after 1947, at the most. to demand that temples laws should be modified to suit govt. whims is to insist that a man's legs should be cut if his slippers are smaller than his legs.!!

there can be even 1000% quota in any sector for any caste, if it is private and non commercial, as temples are!!

priesthood is not govt. job, because temples were not built by tax payers money, nor are they maintained out of tax payers money or govt. funds. so govt, writ does not, cannot and should not run here. by this logic, even in indian cricket team, quotas can be demanded!

 

[NARAS]

Nobody wants to become priestly brahmins.People want to become priests.In other castes we have equally good teetotallers and vegetarians.Good virtues are not the exculisve priveliege of one caste



Nobody gets any qualities like sacrifice,knolwedge etc through blood and genes.For no job in the world birth is a qualification.Arguing that only one race has these qualities by birth is called by dictionary as this



Because discrimination by law on basis of casteism is illegal and immoral.That is why they want this law to be scrapped.



who said supreme court doesnt have the authority inside temples?Does the indian constitution have no application inside temples?



These temples are not brahmin temples.They belong to whole society.

A temple where a brahmin works doesnt become brahmin temple.If ramasamy works in a shop,it doesnt become ramasami's temple.



Only people belonging to a particular caste are allowed to become priests and allowed inside garbagraha.when somebody from other caste has those qualifications,he is still denied entry into garbagraha.Is that not discrimination?Is that not untouchability?



Those restrictions are not beauty.They are discriminatory and casteist.These rules treat 97% of people as not having 'dedication, respect, knowledge, commitment , sacrifice by birth and genes'. Thus they are an insult to entire humanity.When other castes hear such rules and arguments certainly they feel humiliated.That is why they want to change this.



Temples are not womens colleges or associations.They are for all people of all gender.Here no group shall claim that other groups cannot enter the sanctorium.Nobody has the individual right to practice discrimination by caste.Calling caste names and discriminating by caste doesnt fall under the purview of freedom of speech.

Once you make birth in a certain caste as the first essential quality of a job automatically it becomes discrimination.In the very first round itself you eliminate 97% of the population from becoming priests.



Dalits and OBC's become engineers in nasa and multinational companies.They become preisdent and prime ministers of country.When they do such specalized jobs why do you think they dont have the ability to do a priests job?When so many nonbrahmins attained bhrammarishi status and become great men how can you say they dont have the ability and skills?



Those who constructed temples did not want 'all and sundry' to enter temples too.They made dalits to stand outside temples.can we implement that rule now too?

Eye doctor cannot perform eye surgery.But people from any caste who has got an MBBS can do eye surgery.Similiarly anybody who gets trained can become priests.



By law there is nothing called as orthodox temples,modern temples,ultra orthodox temples etc.
There are only hindu temples under HRCE which are open to all hindus for jobs and devotion.



even if brahmins become majority,they should allow the current law to prevail.Because now while other castes are majority,they are not saying "bhramins should not become priests".They only are saying "everybody including brahmins,dalits,devars etc can become priests".This law should prevail during all times.



Yes.Anyperson can build his temple from his own money in his own land and can levy whatever rule he deems fit.But the temples we talk about were build by kings for all 4 varnas and for all people.They belong to public.Brahmin priests were employed there.They were not given ownership of these temples.



So change brahmin temples into Hindu temples.The word Hindu is inclusive.It also includes brahmins.It includes all 4 varnas.It is not divisive.It doesnt give exculisve rights to anybody.All are equal.



India doesnt retain monarchy.It is a free, democratic and secular country.There are no kings. "ellorum innattu mannar(we all are kings)".

sir -though india is a republic & monarchy has been abolished, descendants of kings to exist. the nawab of arcot has got some privileges even now. india has diplomatic relations with many monarchies. nepal has a monarch, and india has special relationship with nepal.. like that priesthood can exist, without any legal hitches. How can you change brahmin temples into 'hindu' temples? temples are run as per agamas, and the word 'hindu' is nowhere found in any orthodox scripture! the word 'hindu' has no religious significance. it has only value as a name which identifies certain groups.

kings built temples not to give devotees the rights to tamper with agamas, but only as a mark of respect to god. what respect will be there for god or kings, if you tamper with agamas???

even bramins are not saying that 'any bramin can become a priest'. they are only saying only 'priestly hereditary member' can become a priest. this law should prevail permanently, irrespective of whether bramins or in a majority or not.

in law there need not be division of temples into orthodox, modern etc.because india is a secular country! ANYBODY WHO GETS TRAINED ,EVEN IF HE IS A BRAHMIN CANNOT BECOME PRIESTS! ONLY HEREDITARY PRIESTS, THAT TOO ONLY MALE BRAHMINS AMONGST THEMSELVES, PROVIDED THEY BELONG TO THAT PARTICULAR SECT, CAN BECOME PRIESTS!!!

you are saying one time that those who constructed temples wanted all varnas to become priests. now you are saying that those who constructed temples wanted dalits to stand outside temples! contradiction...glaring contradiction......!!!!

even brahmins are not recognised in orthodox temples for priesthood , if they do not belong to priestly family. engineers, doctors are professions. priesthood is not profession in that sense. do not mix issues and get confused friend!!!

it is not birth in a caste, but birth in a priestly family which is qualification tobecome a priest. this is not discrimination or untouchability.again you are putting words into my mouth!!!

there are restriction even on god & bramins inside temples. so what is wrong in restricting humans, or devotees or non bramins? if anybody should feel offended it is the god & bramins,who are put to so many restrictions inspite of their so called supremacy!!! bramin temples means temples which have bramins as priests. these belong to whole universe, but not for tampering, only for visiting!!!

does writ of supreme court run in consulates, embassies? can a supreme court or any international govt. modify rules, regulations of sports & games? there are many areas where even national, international govts. or supreme courts cannot interfere.in civil matters. no state in india or no country in the world, has banned hereditary priesthood!!!

for the job of priesthood in orthodox temples, birth in a priestly family is essential qualification. even bramins outside priestly families cannot become priests! does this mean bramins outside priestly families do not have sacrificial qualities in their genes or blood???? when brahmins are themselves excluded where is question of discrimination onbasis of caste?????

 

[NARAS]

Dear pappan,

Social change will not come from public. It will come from leaders.Before ambedhkar and gandhi took up the cause of dalits, dalits never realized they had these rights. They were used to live as slaves without questioning anything.even during that time we had pressing issues like independence of nation, world wars , famines etc.Inspite of all this gandhi and ambedhkar fought for rights of dalits to enter temples.They did not think this to be an insignificant act.They knew that they were doing the most important job which was left pending for thousands of years.

Such reforms should have been done in hinduism during the period of alwars and nayanmars itself.But better be late than never.

sir- reforms can be brought only by persons of some character. 'rationalists' cannot bring reforms as they are themselves immoral!!!!

 

[goundamani]

Mr.Suresh,

Please read what indian constitution says about what is public property and equality.

Fundamental rights for Indians have also been aimed at overturning the inequalities of pre-independence social practices. Specifically, they have also been used to abolish untouchability and hence prohibit discrimination on the grounds of religion, race, caste, sex, or place of birth.

Right to equality is an important right provided for in Articles 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the constitution. It is the principal foundation of all other rights and liberties, and guarantees the following:


Equality before law: Article 14 of the constitution guarantees that all citizens shall be equally protected by the laws of the country. It means that the State cannot discriminate against a citizen on the basis of caste, creed, colour, sex, religion or place of birth.

Social equality and equal access to public areas: Article 15 of the constitution states that no person shall be discriminated on the basis of caste, colour, language etc. Every person shall have equal access to public places like public parks, museums, wells, bathing ghats and temples etc.

Equality in matters of public employment: Article 16 of the constitution lays down that the State cannot discriminate against anyone in the matters of employment.Also, there a law may be passed which requires that the holder of an office of any religious institution shall also be a person professing that particular religion. (nothing about any caste is mentioned here, only religion)

Thus temples are public properties, all hindus have their constitutional rights to ask for equality and equal opportunities in employment.

 

[NARAS]

I already said I talk about big temples like srirangam and chidambaram.



I dont have a problem going to temples which is served by brahmins.But I cannot accept that temples should be served only by brahmins.



That's not the end of it.smarthas and iyengars cannot divide temples between themselves.All castes should be given equal rights in all temples.



each and every temple also had the tradition of appointing devadasis and not allowing harijans.Why was that tradition broken?

Tradition will be respected as long as it doesnt interfere with equality.



I have always called myself as a Hindu.But there are people who claimed that they belong to brahmanism and not hinduism.

I respect hindu traditions of jathikal illaidai pappa and onre kulam,oreuvane devan.As long as I live I will uphold these traditions.



I hope next time you give a disclaimer as of what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.It will avoid many confusions. Further in many places people might not take statements like these metaphorically.Just a friendly suggestion.



I have visited many temples in TN and am only saying what I observe.In all big temples of TN which have huge revenue and where government pays the salary, only brahmins are priests.In small village temples dalits and others are priests.Why is this so?

sir - priesthood in orthodox temples is not preserve of one caste, but of one family. the word family has been substituted by 'caste' by 'rationalists' to give 'social justice' color to their propaganda. after all even bramins outside these familes are considered unfit to become priests? why is this so?

the word 'hindu' is not found in any orthodox scripture. so many people do call themselves as 'bramin' or even ' vaishnava' or 'saiva'!

temples are not served only by bramins, but only by priestly families. even bramins outside these priestly families are untouchables for priesthood!! if all castes are allowed priesthood, even then is it not possible that bramins outside priestly families may dominate? so it is better to continue with existing arrangement! the tradition of appointing devadasi was not since inception of temples. it came in the middle, it went off. so is the tradition of banning harijans. harijans were welcome inside as long as they were vegans. once they turned non veggies, they were sent off. of course they are not allowed inside even if they are non veggies!

when bramins themselves do not have equal rights,how can all castes be given equal rights for priesthood? you can give rights only if you have them!!!!!

 

[NARAS]

Mr.Suresh,

Please read what indian constitution says about what is public property and equality.

Fundamental rights for Indians have also been aimed at overturning the inequalities of pre-independence social practices. Specifically, they have also been used to abolish untouchability and hence prohibit discrimination on the grounds of religion, race, caste, sex, or place of birth.

Right to equality is an important right provided for in Articles 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the constitution. It is the principal foundation of all other rights and liberties, and guarantees the following:


Equality before law: Article 14 of the constitution guarantees that all citizens shall be equally protected by the laws of the country. It means that the State cannot discriminate against a citizen on the basis of caste, creed, colour, sex, religion or place of birth.

Social equality and equal access to public areas: Article 15 of the constitution states that no person shall be discriminated on the basis of caste, colour, language etc. Every person shall have equal access to public places like public parks, museums, wells, bathing ghats and temples etc.

Equality in matters of public employment: Article 16 of the constitution lays down that the State cannot discriminate against anyone in the matters of employment.Also, there a law may be passed which requires that the holder of an office of any religious institution shall also be a person professing that particular religion. (nothing about any caste is mentioned here, only religion)

Thus temples are public properties, all hindus have their constitutional rights to ask for equality and equal opportunities in employment.

sir- priesthood is not govt.emplyment. because temples were not made, are not run out of tax payers money. law only says about access toplace of worship. that is why all hindus are allowed to visit.law does not say that becoming a priest, or employee or adminstrator is a fundamental right.

even stadiums & grounds are public properties.can govts. or courts then dictate how rules, regulations of matches of various sports & games ???
it will be ridiculous if they do so!!!

if discrimination on basis of caste is banned, how are caste quotas awarded in govt. jobs??????

 

[goundamani]

sir- priesthood is not govt.emplyment. because temples were not made, are not run out of tax payers money. law only says about access toplace of worship. that is why all hindus are allowed to visit.law does not say that becoming a priest, or employee or adminstrator is a fundamental right.

Priests do draw salary from HRCE ministry.It is thus government job.In government job there cannot be hereditary rights or restrictions on basis of caste.

even stadiums & grounds are public properties.can govts. or courts then dictate how rules, regulations of matches of various sports & games ???
it will be ridiculous if they do so!!!

If indian board of cricket says only dalits can become umpires or christians can become captains,Indian government can certainly stop it by law.It wont be ridiculous

if discrimination on basis of caste is banned, how are caste quotas awarded in govt. jobs??????

Government says that it gives reservations to avoid discrimination.Once equality is attained,quotas will be stopped.

Obviously this law was misused and 94% indians now became backward.The intention was good, implementation was bad.

 

[NARAS]

Priests do draw salary from HRCE ministry.It is thus government job.In government job there cannot be hereditary rights or restrictions on basis of caste.



If indian board of cricket says only dalits can become umpires or christians can become captains,Indian government can certainly stop it by law.It wont be ridiculous



Government says that it gives reservations to avoid discrimination.Once equality is attained,quotas will be stopped.

Obviously this law was misused and 94% indians now became backward.The intention was good, implementation was bad.

sir - priests did not request gvt . to controls temples. in fact priests and devotees want govts. out of temples, just like they have gone out of mosques & churches. salary is a word only used for commercial enterprises. what temples earn are incomes from voluntary contributions, income from properties belonging to temples etc. it is from this income that priests are paid their monthly remuneration. not from tax payers money. so priests are not govt. servants at all!

the question i am asking is can a govt. dictate rules of games or sports? for e.g. can the t.nadu govt. bring a law that in cricket, if the ball hits the stumps,the batsmen should be given six runs??? as a matter of fact, no national govt. or even international govt. can interfere in rules of games & sports. just like that in consulates, embassies & spl. economic zones govts. writ do not run! there are many, many areas where no govts. any where in the world can interfere!!! in english PUT & BUT are pronounced differently though the letter 'u' is commonly coming in between. if a govt. where to bring a law that both put & but must be pronounced in the same manner, will it not look foolish?? there is a limit beyond which govts. cannot interfere!!!

the my question is not what govts. say about caste quotas. that is an excuse. my question is , does not caste quota violate basic rule of indian constitution which says nobody shall be discriminated by govts. on basis of birth? say 'yes' or 'no'!

BTW, i do not think specific equality can be enforced by a goverment.
governments can at best enforce general equality that too at the most by declaring that everybody is equal before law. it is upto courts to intervene in specific matters to enforce equality of law. it is not govts. job at all!!
for e.g. in area of uttarpradesh is many, many times bigger than pondicherry! if pondicherry were to say uttarpradesh should be divided many times, till it becomes as small as pondicherry, on the basis of 'equality' will it not look foolish?

saudi arabia has abundant petrol resources. south korea has not even a single drop of oil. can south korea say , saudi arabia should hand over control of some of its oil wells to it on the basis of 'equality'? there is inequality in the world all over.some countries are very small. some are very large. some people are tall, white & handsome. some are short, black & ordinary. some people are rich. some are very poor. some persons have very strong body power. some persons are handicapped. should govts. pass laws and ensure 'equality' amongst these divergent groups???

the main reason communism failed all over the world is because communist govts. tried to enforce'equality' through compulsory govt. actions. caste quotas have failed in india because of same reason. equality is most misunderstood and most misused word. specific equality can be brought at the most to some extent only by voluntary actions & campaign and certainly not by govt. enforcement or interference or intervention!!!!!!!!

 

[NARAS]

Padipparivu Vs Pagutharivu!!!

SIR - a friend of mine (not a very close friend-a non brahmin with whom i have occassional contact) telephoned me a couple of days & asked me -"suresh, cinema actor kamalahaasa is also an iyengar like you. whereas you are opposed to the periar totally, that fellow kamalahaasa, eulogises the periar from top to bottom. why?" i told him that the kamalahaasa did not have any padipparivu (education)! so he opted for 'pagutharivu' (rationalism). but i have enough padipparivu. so there is no need for 'pagutharivu' for me!!!

mind you there is no need for padipparu for pagutharivu. in fact, the lesser you are educated, the more you become 'rational' e.g.s. kamalahaasa, satyaraaja, vairamutha, karunanidhi etc.,!!!!!

 

[NARAS]

SIR - a friend of mine (not a very close friend-a non brahmin with whom i have occassional contact) telephoned me a couple of days & asked me -"suresh, cinema actor kamalahaasa is also an iyengar like you. whereas you are opposed to the periar totally, that fellow kamalahaasa, eulogises the periar from top to bottom. why?" i told him that the kamalahaasa did not have any padipparivu (education)! so he opted for 'pagutharivu' (rationalism). but i have enough padipparivu. so there is no need for 'pagutharivu' for me!!!

mind you there is no need for padipparu for pagutharivu. in fact, the lesser you are educated, the more you become 'rational' e.g.s. kamalahaasa, satyaraaja, vairamutha, karunanidhi etc.,!!!!!

sir - some 'rationalists' are asking bramins to go to temple jobs alone, because in vedas bramins are supposed to look after temples alone and not any other job! but today we are not running the country based on varnasharama! then why should bramins go back to temple jobs alone? moreover this is not a hindu rashtra !a secular country! and if scriptures are to be strictly followed, no non bramin should read vedas at all!!! why should bramins alone insisted to follow epics & scriptures, when govts. are not ready to follow it, when 'rationalists' are not ready to follow it and when non brahmins are also not ready to follow it in its true spirit?????

 

[kudumi]

Consistency.

I already said I talk about big temples like srirangam and chidambaram.



I dont have a problem going to temples which is served by brahmins.But I cannot accept that temples should be served only by brahmins.



That's not the end of it.smarthas and iyengars cannot divide temples between themselves.All castes should be given equal rights in all temples.



each and every temple also had the tradition of appointing devadasis and not allowing harijans.Why was that tradition broken?

Tradition will be respected as long as it doesnt interfere with equality.



I have always called myself as a Hindu.But there are people who claimed that they belong to brahmanism and not hinduism.

I respect hindu traditions of jathikal illaidai pappa and onre kulam,oreuvane devan.As long as I live I will uphold these traditions.



I hope next time you give a disclaimer as of what to take literally and what to take metaphorically.It will avoid many confusions. Further in many places people might not take statements like these metaphorically.Just a friendly suggestion.



I have visited many temples in TN and am only saying what I observe.In all big temples of TN which have huge revenue and where government pays the salary, only brahmins are priests.In small village temples dalits and others are priests.Why is this so?

You said 100% quota, I refusted it, then you say srirangam. If you said only srirangam where is 100% coming from? Talk only about srirangam then. Its like tamilnadu politician to divert and twist.

"I dont have a problem going to temples which is served by brahmins.But I cannot accept that temples should be served only by brahmins."
If you accept or dont accept does not matter. It has been like that for time immemorial. We dont have to change the traditions just because someone has a fancy wish.

"That's not the end of it.smarthas and iyengars cannot divide temples between themselves.All castes should be given equal rights in all temples.".

Its not a question of division. THe question of division arises when iyengars say, smarthas cannot come to our temple, only iyengars can come. When you enter an iyengar temple, you enter as a devotee only. And by entering as a devotee, you adhere to the rules of the temple.

"Tradition will be respected as long as it doesnt interfere with equality."
Let us show our equality elsewhere. Let us show that all are equal in engineering admissions, government contract. Religion is something that should not controlled by a stupid secular government, run by a bunch of idiots ( no metaphors).

"I respect hindu traditions of jathikal illaidai pappa and onre kulam,oreuvane devan.As long as I live I will uphold these traditions."
Hope the government does not ask for my jaathi when I admit my kid for LKG.
You uphold your tradition, and let them uphold their tradition of dividing the society.

"I have visited many temples in TN and am only saying what I observe.In all big temples of TN which have huge revenue and where government pays the salary, only brahmins are priests.In small village temples dalits and others are priests.Why is this so?" Your concern for rich temple shows you are interested only in money. I know a lot of poor temples where brahmins are priests.
Actually, I dont even want to think what the caste of the priest is, as long as the temple traditions are followed. If the tradition is for one family and its descendents, so be it.

 

[goundamani]

You said 100% quota, I refusted it, then you say srirangam. If you said only srirangam where is 100% coming from? Talk only about srirangam then. Its like tamilnadu politician to divert and twist.

Kudumi sir,

If you go through the previous discussions you will see that me and suresh always debated about traditional and age old temples in TN like srirangam,annamalai and chidambaram.I did not change or twist anything.

"I dont have a problem going to temples which is served by brahmins.But I cannot accept that temples should be served only by brahmins."
If you accept or dont accept does not matter. It has been like that for time immemorial. We dont have to change the traditions just because someone has a fancy wish.

Traditions are not changed because of fancy wish.They are changed because they violate fundamental tenets in our constitution, equality of all, non-discrimination and untouchability.

Time immeroial traditions like devdasis,marrying children inside temples and not allowing dalits inside temples were changed by law.So just because a tradition exists for a long time doesnt mean it should not be changed.

Its not a question of division. THe question of division arises when iyengars say, smarthas cannot come to our temple, only iyengars can come. When you enter an iyengar temple, you enter as a devotee only. And by entering as a devotee, you adhere to the rules of the temple.

1.Brahmins (or anybody) dividing temples among themselves and stopping all others from becoming priests because of birth, caste is highly discriminatory and against the constitution.By such laws we are saying "other castes do not have the necessary qualities by birth" which is totally unacceptable.

2.There are no iyengar or iyer temples.There are only hindu temples.Just because iyers work in a temple, it doesnt become iyer temple.employee can never become owner.

3.You adhere to a temples rules as long as they are fair and non-discriminatory and not casteist.If such rules exist,you dont obey them. you change them by law.

"Tradition will be respected as long as it doesnt interfere with equality."
Let us show our equality elsewhere. Let us show that all are equal in engineering admissions, government contract. Religion is something that should not controlled by a stupid secular government, run by a bunch of idiots ( no metaphors).

Religion should be controlled by government.

If somebody a declares jihad on you,should government control it or not?
If untouchability exists,should the government control it or not?Should it not interefere in these 'religious matters?"

"I respect hindu traditions of jathikal illaidai pappa and onre kulam,oreuvane devan.As long as I live I will uphold these traditions."
Hope the government does not ask for my jaathi when I admit my kid for LKG.
You uphold your tradition, and let them uphold their tradition of dividing the society.

Once all of us uphold hindu values and traditions like "jathikal illaiyadi pappa" and "onre kulam oruvane devan" government will defenitley stop asking our castes.

"I have visited many temples in TN and am only saying what I observe.In all big temples of TN which have huge revenue and where government pays the salary, only brahmins are priests.In small village temples dalits and others are priests.Why is this so?" Your concern for rich temple shows you are interested only in money. I know a lot of poor temples where brahmins are priests.

Rich temples are the most traditional and prestigious temples in TN.If a dalit becomes a priest in a village mariamman temple it means nothing.But if he becomes the head priest in tirupathi temple and stands in garbagraha in front of lord, it conveys a great message.It shows that casteism has been dealt a death blow in hinduism.

Actually, I dont even want to think what the caste of the priest is, as long as the temple traditions are followed. If the tradition is for one family and its descendents, so be it.

Discriminatory traditions need not be followed.whether we care about such traditions or not,government should defenitely care.

 

[goundamani]

sir - priests did not request gvt . to controls temples. in fact priests and devotees want govts. out of temples, just like they have gone out of mosques & churches. salary is a word only used for commercial enterprises. what temples earn are incomes from voluntary contributions, income from properties belonging to temples etc. it is from this income that priests are paid their monthly remuneration. not from tax payers money. so priests are not govt. servants at all!

priests are public servants.Temples are public property and employees in public proerty are public servants.Indian constitution has declared temples as public property and you or me cannot wish it away.

the question i am asking is can a govt. dictate rules of games or sports? for e.g. can the t.nadu govt. bring a law that in cricket, if the ball hits the stumps,the batsmen should be given six runs??? as a matter of fact, no national govt. or even international govt. can interfere in rules of games & sports. just like that in consulates, embassies & spl. economic zones govts. writ do not run! there are many, many areas where no govts. any where in the world can interfere!!! in english PUT & BUT are pronounced differently though the letter 'u' is commonly coming in between. if a govt. where to bring a law that both put & but must be pronounced in the same manner, will it not look foolish?? there is a limit beyond which govts. cannot interfere!!!

If in cricket there is a rule that "If dalits hit sixers,it is considered as zero runs" should the govt interfere or not?

In temples currently we have rules like "If dalits do poojas it is not valid.If brahmins do pooja only it is valid"

In this situation it is certainly legal,ethical,moral and necesary for a government to intervene and interfere.

the my question is not what govts. say about caste quotas. that is an excuse. my question is , does not caste quota violate basic rule of indian constitution which says nobody shall be discriminated by govts. on basis of birth? say 'yes' or 'no'!

No.

BTW, i do not think specific equality can be enforced by a goverment.
governments can at best enforce general equality that too at the most by declaring that everybody is equal before law. it is upto courts to intervene in specific matters to enforce equality of law. it is not govts. job at all!!

This law was approved by supreme court.So as you said courts only have intervened in specific matters to enforce equality of law.:thumb:

for e.g. in area of uttarpradesh is many, many times bigger than pondicherry! if pondicherry were to say uttarpradesh should be divided many times, till it becomes as small as pondicherry, on the basis of 'equality' will it not look foolish?

We talk about equality of people, not equality of states,countries,petrol resources etc.

some are very large. some people are tall, white & handsome. some are short, black & ordinary. some people are rich. some are very poor. some persons have very strong body power. some persons are handicapped. should govts. pass laws and ensure 'equality' amongst these divergent groups???

Equality means equal before god,law and opportunities.we tax the rich and give concessions to poor to bring in equality.we give free treatment to handicapped to fit artifical body parts to bring equality.We try everything possible to enforce equality.

equality is an end,not means.We are fighting to bring in equality.Nobody says equality exists now.

If it exists we dont have need for any law.

the main reason communism failed all over the world is because communist govts. tried to enforce'equality' through compulsory govt. actions. caste quotas have failed in india because of same reason. equality is most misunderstood and most misused word. specific equality can be brought at the most to some extent only by voluntary actions & campaign and certainly not by govt. enforcement or interference or intervention!!!!!!!!

If hindus had agreed voluntarily to allow all as priests,we dont need law.If they had earlier agreed to allow dalits inside temples,we dont need laws to enforce it.As you said these changed should have happened voluntarily.But they did not happen.without laws they will never happen.

 

[hariharan1972]

Pagutharivu - It should be "Vagutharivu"

i have enough padipparivu. so there is no need for 'pagutharivu' for me!!!

'Pagutharivu' is a wonderful term which underlines the importance of understanding, analyzing & then deploying each & every information.

The seeds of "Pagutharivu" i would like to believe are sown in "Thirukkural" itself where Saint Thiruvalluvar says

"yepporul yaar yaar vai ketpinum,
apporul mei-p-porul kanbadarivu"

The Dravida clan has only used the "pagutharivu" to fuel hatred, discrimination and has contributed a lot to the creation of a divisive society. So their brand of "Pagutharivu" should be renamed as "Vagutharivu" - knowledge to divide (& rule)