Inter caste marriages

[appaiah]

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Dear Mr Nara

If you say you did not mean vice, well, I agree.

But how is it that two humans producing two other in onle life time "damns the rest of the humanity?" And how does it mean "a growing brahmin population"? Where is any responsibility in your comment while saying so?

And when you say: "The only way the ratio can get skewed is by resorting to selective termination of pregnancy, or postpartum murder based on the gender of the baby." What is the basis for this. Do you mean to say that all these days, our community people had been doing selective termination of pregnancy? What is your data to prove this?

 

[appaiah]

Dear Mr Nara

If you say you did not mean "vice", well, I agree.

But how is it that two humans producing two other in one life time "damns the rest of the humanity?" And how does it mean "a growing brahmin population"? Where is any responsibility in your comment while saying so?

And when you say: "The only way the ratio can get skewed is by resorting to selective termination of pregnancy, or postpartum murder based on the gender of the baby." What is the basis for this. Do you mean to say that all these days, our community people had been doing selective termination of pregnancy or for that matter murder? What is your data to prove this? What is the level of your responsibility in this kind of statement?

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Appaiah:

Greetings!

But how is it that two humans producing two other in one life time "damns the rest of the humanity?" And how does it mean "a growing brahmin population"? Where is any responsibility in your comment while saying so?

The problem is advocating at least two kids for our younger generation. By "our" I think you mean Brahmin community. You further went on to say,

"This is a must. Because we will be extinguished over a period of time if we follow one child policy. within a given community"
​

What this means is, the population explosion of India is unimportant, but the Brahmin couples must produce at least two so that caste Brahmins will not go extinct. IMHO, this is an extremely irresponsible thing to say.

Do you mean to say that all these days, our community people had been doing selective termination of pregnancy or for that matter murder?

When did I say that?

My comment was only abut how a ratio imbalance can come about. I did not say whether such an imbalance actually exists, and attribute this as the reason for that. You say no such imbalance exists. Then what is the problem?

The ratio cannot get skewed by natural process. This is mathematically provable. The ratio imbalance between boy/girl babies can get skewed only through unnatural intervention. I am not saying the Brahmins did it.

At the marriageable age if there is an imbalance within the Brahmin community that did not exist at earlier ages, then it is because (i) brahmis girls do not want to get married at all, or (ii) they are marrying NB boys.

Let me ask you a question now. Why do you think Brahmin community must ignore the advice of the government and go on to produce at least 2?

Cheers!

 

[tbs]

This is what we need.... the ARRANGED MARRIAGE....

Dear parents, lets follow the methods prescribed and make our kids happy in their life, rather supporting them for their love.....

Thanks Pann... for giving me opportunity to raise my voice in support of Arranged Marriage....

Regards

hi swamy sir,
i support arranged marriage....i can define three types of marriages...
1, arranged marriages...purely by parents..
2,love marriages....purely individuals and against parents supports..
3.semi arranged marriages...may be new modern theory...selected
by individuals with parents support...not by force...making
understandings/some adjustments...i prefer this..beoz here
both are happy according to modern requirements..but culture/
gothram/caste/food cannot be compromised at any cast...even
some extent jataka porutham is must....but im against with
parents arranged marriages based on arrogant money/ status
arrangements.....but im lucky..i have 1 girl/1 boy....if i loose
somewhere....i can achieve some where....but i never
compromise on gothram/culture/food too....my 2 cents..

regards
tbs

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happyhinduji

Rather than men dreaming for a womb or the society resorting to test tube babies, we can always learn to live with what we have. All that is needed is "adjustment" by the men folk in sharing the work in rearing the children. As long as the elders were respected, and treated honourably, they remained in the house and took a good lot of work in bringing up children. This support is absent sometimes if the elders die early. However, if only our generations learn to respect their services and take them along, the difficulties in rearing children will not certainly be there. After all, the past, the families had larger number of children. Most of us have been brought up in the young days by the grand mother/ father than the mother. It is only because of this, even the stories are linked to the granny. After dumping whatever that is good, we are trying to put the blame on non-existant causes.

Dear Appiah ji,

Nice to see you back

No sir i did not mean the work involved in raising kids. Surely women can do it, with or without help.

What i meant by quality of life was cost of living. While the rich can afford it and the poor have started bothering abt these things only now, lets look at the vast majority that is middle-class.

When i was growing up in the 70s and early 80s, i think my annual school fees, books, etc did not cost more than Rs.5000 per year.

But today one has to shell out anywhere from Rs.50,000 to 2 lakhs just for LKG admission as so-called donation. If one want a good school, this cost cannot be avoided.

As such, the cost of living is not as simple as before sir.

i dunno how can one afford to have more than 2 kids....i think more the number of kids one has, the more he invites poverty home.

Even slum people are doing family planning since the past decade or so, and cutting the number of children, in the hopes of making a better life.

Regards.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Nara

Greetings!

First you said all the “vice” people and then when pointed out, you said you meant that it was meant only as “wise” and I accepted. And you have also edited your original post to fall in line.

First you said “This is the same as saying let the rest of the humanity be damned, just as long as we have a growing Brahmin (by birth is once again emphasized by this advice) population.” After querying, you reduced it to “What this means is, the population explosion of India is unimportant, but the Brahmin couples must produce at least two so that caste Brahmins will not go extinct. IMHO, this is an extremely irresponsible thing to say.” The size has now changed from “the rest of the humanity” to population explosion of India”

First you said “The only way the ratio can get skewed is by resorting to selective termination of pregnancy, or postpartum murder based on the gender of the baby.” And now you say “The ratio cannot get skewed by natural process. This is mathematically provable. The ratio imbalance between boy/girl babies can get skewed only through unnatural intervention. I am not saying the Brahmins did it.” From pointed causes like “selective termination of pregnancy and murder” as the only possible reasons you have reduced to only through unnatural intervention.

I think I do not have to talk much about what you call as irresponsible and most irresponsible especially in the light of your changing stands. But I appreciate one change in your stand, from one of “hostility” in the first post and to one of “amity” in the third. I wish it translates to “harmony” sooner.

Well, I stand by my advice, which is based on reality and facts. If two humans in a given community produce only one child, over a period of time the population in that particular community will come down. With natural causes like pre-natal and post-natal deaths, child hood deaths and infertility in some persons of the community adding to the situation, over a period of time, the community will get extinguished. The parsis are a small community and the criss-cross marital relationships among them has caused severe illness amongst the parsi population. There are more spastics (percentage wise) among parsi than among any other community in India, perhaps in the whole world. And the parsi population is dwindling now.

As to following advice by the Government, it is mandatory to follow law of the land and not an advice. And the Government cannot enact a law on this matter as it is the “BIRTH RIGHT” literally and legally!

A couple capable of producing good citizens, in whatever community they be, not necessarily Brahmins, must produce those two children and bring them up as good citizens so that the Nation would benefit. And so will the humanity. It is wrong (in your language the most irresponsible) advice to restrict it to one child. Therefore I have no qualms about going against that Government advice and will also advice others to go against such wrong advice. Responsible persons – be it holding responsible positions in the Government or those in the general society, should at least do something whatever they can, about such of those who produce more than two children despite the fact that they cannot afford to give them nutritious food, reasonable shelter, good education and healthcare.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Appiah ji,

Nice to see you back

No sir i did not mean the work involved in raising kids. Surely women can do it, with or without help.

What i meant by quality of life was cost of living. While the rich can afford it and the poor have started bothering abt these things only now, lets look at the vast majority that is middle-class.

When i was growing up in the 70s and early 80s, i think my annual school fees, books, etc did not cost more than Rs.5000 per year.

But today one has to shell out anywhere from Rs.50,000 to 2 lakhs just for LKG admission as so-called donation. If one want a good school, this cost cannot be avoided.

As such, the cost of living is not as simple as before sir.

i dunno how can one afford to have more than 2 kids....i think more the number of kids one has, the more he invites poverty home.

Even slum people are doing family planning since the past decade or so, and cutting the number of children, in the hopes of making a better life.

Regards.

Sri Happyhindu ji,

I am of the same opinion...

Today the cost of living is so high that both the working couple had to make lots of arrangements and adjustment to have a reasonably better life and to educated their children.

The funny part is, now a days we could find a message as a social campaign on the back side of trucks and auto rickshaws, that says - "NAAME IRUVAR, NAMBALKKU YEN INU ORUVAR?"

What ever, I could feel that a couple should have at least 2 children and for that even they have to struggle a lot to offer them a good standard of life and good education to be in par with fast developing world. It is still hard to meet the expectations of 2 children with out any bias.

But I feel, it would be enjoyable for a couple to have 2 children, especially 1 boy and 1 girl that would make the life more spicy and interesting. Moreover it would help both the child to support each other in every walk of life. A single child may have to depend on the society for everything outside home and may feel unprotected and unsupported for that aspects of life for which even friendly parents can not help much.

Not only, more than 2 children would lead to poverty of the family, but would probably make the life of the children upside-down.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Happyhinduji

Thanks for the warmth you have shown.

My view is :- such of those who can afford to give good education, healthcare, nutritious food and make the children into good citizens should necessarily do that. The term "more the merrier" will fit here appropriately.

I am happy to hear from you that the poor are doing family planning. As I see, there is increased awareness among them, but not adherence. As I know of the poor around me, my servant maid has four children, the dhobi has four, the watchman has three, the driver has two! How I wish they had confined to one as per Government's advice that which is strictly advocated by Mr Nara! On the contrary, my own cousins who could afford to bring up four good children all have stopped with one child. Behold, the ratio is not even. Most of them have one boy child. Some of them have one girl child too.

This is how we are increasing poverty. The haves all have restricted to one child. The have nots follow no restrictions. How do we resolve this, except by requiring the haves to produce two and advising the have-nots to restrict with two. "Have" and "have-not" here are meant by me not only on financial terms but also on overall terms of ability to make good citizens.

We have shown to the world in recent times that the manpower wealth of India is as good if not better than its natural resources. If we restrict our capable population and increase our incapable population then we will be doing disservice to the Nation.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Appaiah ji,

i think the government must do something to prevent people from having more than 2 kids.

If am not wrong the Gandhi family tried to make family planning compulsary but failed.

The muslim vote remains important to the national politics - and in the past, they did not stop with 2 kids. And have ended up becoming the largest "minority" of any nation - its a joke literally.

I think that having one child may be ok for the parents, but the child himself / herself may grow up lonely.

If people can afford, then its an other thing. But in the average middle-class families, it really is a burden to have many kids.

How much can a couple cope financially - they have to provide the best for their kids (many families take it for granted that they will have to shell out a donation for professional education, or have to send their kids abroad), plus they have to take care of the medical bills of their parents (which can cost a bomb), plus they want to have a decent house and a car, plus they try to have decent savings.....its really a tuf call sir...

I myself have known muslim ladies from conservative families who aborted since they did not want to have more than 2 kids (even if both kids were girls). Among the slum people, media seems to have created awareness. I heard that they themselves come to hospitals and ask for tubectomy to limit familiy size to 2 kids.

So i think everyone understands that its better to stop with a limited number of kids for better quality of life.

Instead of producing more than 2 kids, i think its best to sponsor care of kids in orphanages - that way one need not give birth to more kids but can still "have kids"...

India is already reeling with over-population, poor management, and lack of sufficient resources, Lets not add to the burden...

 

[vidhya murali]

inter cast marriages in brahmin community

Dear sir,

our brahmin's community peoples are always jovial/bold and easy moving to others..so other community's are easily mingled with us and take advantage to criticize and they like to marry in our boy's /girls they r also accepted.so in future we have to very strict to follow our culture, should not be correpted community and maintain our religion as good.so always give advise to our children's to be careful in partner selection and don't slip in the marriage life.

 

[happyhindu]

i know personally mudaliars and pillais, whose lifestyle and values are very similar to ours. i think, the first compatibility has to be food ie veg or non veg. if both veg, then the various dishes can be taught.

Sir,

yes there are mudaliars and pillais whose lifestyles are very brahmanical type..

sections of mudaliars were politically motivated folk....the status quo today can seem typical of the younger generation that cannot be bothered abt such things..

however there are some abnormals in the younger lot...hope girls don't fall for such guys...

one example is that of a guy indulging in haywire caste genetics (obviously a novice putting up all sorts of things) on a website abt mudaliars hosted at 110mb.com -- i have been following the content (its changed ocassionally) in that website since a long time -- and have not left that site without a laugh or a smile...

its hard to make out these days if such guys have no crazed out ideas...let no one get fooled by such ppl in marriage matters....

 

[happyhindu]

Dear sir,

our brahmin's community peoples are always jovial/bold and easy moving to others..so other community's are easily mingled with us and take advantage to criticize and they like to marry in our boy's /girls they r also accepted.so in future we have to very strict to follow our culture, should not be correpted community and maintain our religion as good.so always give advise to our children's to be careful in partner selection and don't slip in the marriage life.

in cases of some individuals, sometimes criticism can be brought upon oneself....it cud be a good idea for such folk to look within, rather than blame what you see outside....

i suppose it wud also be a good idea for such individuals to stop claiming that they (as brahmins) are the reason why hindusim has been maintained as good...

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Happyhindu ji,

You are absolutely correct...

No Hindu cast is the reason for maintaining Hinduism as good for ever...

All the cast people are collectively contributing to sustain Hinduism....And acting against some forces involving in converting Hindus in other religion.

But as far as sustaining the Brahmin traditions are concerned, we Brahmins should take some personal and social interest to secure our community for the future generation as well.

If that is not required personally and socially than obviously there are no issues at all.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Happyhinduji

You are right. It was Sanjay Gandhi who attempted at family planning in a serious way. But anything done with an iron hand, especially in matters as personal as "birth right" is sure to meet stiff resistance and it did meet with strong resisitance particularly from the Muslims. The result is defeat of the party at the elections and later the Congress party as a whole gave up on this agenda.

While I do agree that population growth is a cause for worry, I emphasise the point that a correction should take place at the right spot. Just because somebody has put on lot of weight and his paunch is huge, we can not cut his paunch or for that matter some muscle. Just as exercise is must and he needs to reduce his weight by shedding the unwanted fat, we also need to control population at the right places - that is where it is showing signs of bulge - where people are producing three, four and five children with no means even to care for one. Rather than doing that, if we advice and campaign for one child where the couple can easily take care of two at least .... At the cost of repetition .... I reiterate that it is disservice to the Nation and humanity as a whole.

 

[RVR]

Literacy and population growth are inversely proportional. Take the case of Kerala where literacy levels are very high and population growth is very low. On the contrary BIMARU states (Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajastan and Uttar Pradesh) literacy levels are low and population growth is very high.

The best way to promote family planning is to improve literacy.

All the best

 

[tbs]

Literacy and population growth are inversely proportional. Take the case of Kerala where literacy levels are very high and population growth is very low. On the contrary BIMARU states (Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajastan and Uttar Pradesh) literacy levels are low and population growth is very high.

The best way to promote family planning is to improve literacy.

All the best

hi RVR sir,
i like the word BIMARU states...its like BRICK counties..braazil,
russia,india,china, ..i think correct...five developing countries..
i guess so....

regards
tbs

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Appaiah: Greetings!

The size has now changed from “the rest of the humanity” to population explosion of India”

....you have reduced to only through unnatural intervention.

So you want to analyze what words I used in two different posts and conclude my question does not deserve an answer.

If indeed you think I am making a broad based retreat, should you not be just satisfied? Why are you criticizing me if you think I am toning down and being more reasonable? This is strange indeed.

Be that as it may, let me assure you, the only typo, and that too a Freudian one as rightly pointed out by Kunjuppu, is typing vice when I meant wise. That aside, I standby every word I said in both the posts. I am still "hostile", your word not mine, about what you are suggesting -- increasing the Brahmin population by urging Brahmin couples to have more babies -- it is a callous, selfish, and tribalistic idea. Fortunately, our youngsters are quite enlightened in these matters and your advice is sure to not find resonance with most of them.

If two humans in a given community produce only one child..

By "community" I suppose you mean caste. So, each caste should produce enough babies so that the size of their own caste grows, and this is not an irresponsible advice how?

There is a way to expand the size of the Brahmin caste without contributing to the overall increase in the size of humanity and population explosion in India, and that is to admit anyone into this caste.

Voluntarily limiting family size is a phenomenon closely related to education and economic status. If you are interested in not letting the relative size of your hallowed caste to go down, then the responsible thing to do is to make sure there is universal, free, quality education. Asking everyone to produce as many babies as they can is the same as asking the bus driver to put the pedal to the metal when he is driving towards a cliff.

Don't stand inside the narrow confines of caste walls. Break the walls down, at least one individual at a time. Read this report on tearing down this wall. The sooner this caste meme goes extinct, the better it is for humanity in general, and Indians in particular.

Cheers!

 

[uksharma3]

Sri Happyhindu ji,

You are absolutely correct...

No Hindu cast is the reason for maintaining Hinduism as good for ever...

All the cast people are collectively contributing to sustain Hinduism....And acting against some forces involving in converting Hindus in other religion.

I agree with you Ravi-ji that Hinduism is sustained by many caste people. Malaysian and Sri Lanka Tamils are sustaining and promoting Hinduism even in countries like Australia, Europe, USA and Canada. I have seen Sri Lanka Tamils who are NB have established Hindu temples in several parts of London and conduct festivals. They even get the roads closed for Ther festival. Sometime back Queen visited one of such a temple - Highgate Murugan coil.
Here in India there are several organizations run by NB people that grows and sustains Hinduism.

 

[kunjuppu]

i can see where appaiah is coming from. it is from his perception, and many like him, that the world we grew up and flourished is threatened.

not only threatened with diminishing, but within a few generations, extinction, a la the parsis. these are based on the old paradigms

ie: insularity & no conversion from other groups.

as i mentioned in an earlier post, the fact is there are fewer, but generally, more opulent wedding, i think. also, in the weddings, there are hardly any children in single digits.

quite a difference from previous generations.

what our parents' generation did not do, is to think through their adoption of planned families' impact on the next generation.

for example, if ten TB couples each have two children each, and ten muslim couples have 8 children each, in two generations, the brahims would have only 40 kids vs 640 kids in the muslim families.

my math may note be accurate, but i hope folks get the effect of exponential multiplication.

we can all moan at this situation and weep. but eventually, we will have to agree that this is a situation beyond our control. no amount of tantrums will right this matter.

our children, are following the process of 'westernization' and with increased education, opportunities and wealth, surprisingly have less interest in procreating.

why? i don't know. perhaps sociologists already have analyzed it all out.

faced with such realities what should we as mature (in age ie more than half century on this planet) do?

i think each has his or her own solution, including the whiners and the weepers.

personally, i live in a western society, and have found that within the generation, caste has disappeared. TB children marry evenly divided between hindus (almost all from other castes or regions) or whites.

i have seen only one muslim wedding.

by and large, the whites (atleast those who date desis) here are like the hindus in india - tolerant and have good vibes about our religion. most weddings are hindu affair or hindu & christian, which is a reflection of respect for our culture.

the young generation is irreligious by themselves, i think, atleast most of them, here in the west. so if left to themselves, they would probably just move in, set up an household. marriage may be an afterthought, i think.

i have to say, that i am ok with this, because anything which is not wanted by the youngsters, i think, is an imposition that should be avoided.

so, i think, hinduism, is at cross roads of its destiny. my parentage and ancestry is palghat pattars for the past 4 generations, and that is all i know about my ancestors.

whether the next generation in my family will be hindus, i think 'yes', per my children, who have the strong hindu identity. whether they be ritual practising brahmins, i am quite sure, they won't.

i am ok with it. that is all it counts.

thank you.

ps. strictly speaking, it has, is and will be, the guardians of hinduism on the practical basis have been NBs. i am a proud hindu, when i see my sri lankan brethren, build temples, lovingly offer வேண்டுகோள் சமைத்த பொங்கல் or பஞ்சாம்ரிதம் at the temple.

i have to confess that i am not too fond of those stuff, and often in a dilemma what to do with such munificience. there is always a sense of guilt, particularly as i am aware those offerings are from NBs, but on the other hand, i would refuse it from TBs too. i just have no desire for such stuff.

my mother's voice, i hear even now, பிரசாதம் டா சாப்படலேய்னா உம்மாச்சி கோச்சுப்பா. sorry உம்மாச்சி, i love you, but not this cooked stuff passing off as prasaadam.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Mr Nara

Greetings!

So you want to analyze what words I used in two different posts and conclude my question does not deserve an answer.

All the words that I quoted were from only three consecutive posts of you and these were interlinked with one another. Would it not make better sense to read them together and arrive at what the author means to say? As long as these are not unconnected posts, I think I am being fair.

But where did I say that you dont deserve an answer. I said I did not have to talk much about what you meant as most irresponsible and irresponsible. That is all. In fact, in the latter paragraphs I had explainsed my stand and even given my views on your comments. I had pointed out as to how two children for two persons would not increase the population and as to how the Parsi Community is near extinction. I also stated as to why we need not follow the Government's advice on one child for two persons. I am unable to comprehend what else you would accept as an answer!

As to your reaction to my welcoming your change from hostility to amity, words like "the most irresponsible" "hubris" "whine about" "arrogance" gave me the feeling of hostility. Words like "Sorry" "Greetings" "Cheers" gave me the feeling of amity. That is all.

About the other portions I will continue in another post.

Cheers

 

[appaiah]

Dear Mr Nara

Greetings!

increasing the Brahmin population by urging Brahmin couples to have more babies -- it is a callous, selfish, and tribalistic idea.

Where did I ever urge the Brahmin couple to have more children? Can you prove that two persons begetting two children would increase the population! It defies logic and mathematics to say so. The calculation made by you is wrong (in your language "callous and irresponsible"). In fact, in my posts, I had even stated that this is not restricted to any caste, but this must be followed by all those who are capable of producing good citizens in terms of certain parameters. I had given samples as well.

You have referred to a news item on breaking the caste wall, from the web site of Human Rights Watch. The call is given by Paul Divakar, who is a Christian convert and is carrying out the agenda of the Christian missionary.

I am a close follower of Human Rights Watch (HRW) and other such organisations. Amnesty International seems to be leftist in its approach. United Nations Human Rights Organisation seems to be much more fair than the others in their approach, though it is also subject to bias in favour of Christianity. The Pope has been given a special position in its Committees and therefore he is represented by his representative Cardinal or Archbishop and this would naturally cause the bias.

The Human Rights Watch reports are biased in favour of Europeans. These organisations are indirectly aided by Christian missionary and they function with an ulterior motive. While the HRW considers and affirms that there is caste-based discrimination in India, it uses soft language about Malaysia where there is nothing but violent repression of Hindus. I am providing certain excerpts from their news items for your ready reference.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/12/17/malaysia-hindu-rights-activists-detained

On December 13, the government arrested Hindu Rights Action Force (Hindraf) leaders P. Uthayakumar, M. Manoharan, V. Ganabatirau, R. Kenghadharan, and T. Vasanthakumar under the ISA. Hindraf protests what they believe arediscriminatory government economic policies against Malaysia’s Indian population, and on November 25 held a rally in Kuala Lumpur drawing between 10,000 and 30,000 participants.

Please note that they use the term "what they believe are". It is a fact that the Hindus are marginalised in education and social security in Malaysia. It is a fact that their religious rights are denied to them. But the HRW will not endorse this fact.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/22/un-racism-conference-fails-caste-based-discrimination

The international community should take action on caste-based discrimination, which violates the rights of 260 million people globally, a group of nongovernmental organizations including Human Rights Watch, Lutheran World Federation, Pax Romana, IMADR, IDSN, NCDHR, and FORUM-ASIA said at a news conference on caste-based discrimination and the Durban Review Conference.

Please Note who are hand in hand with HRW. The Luthern World Federation has its headquarters located in Geneva. It represents the majority of Lutheran Christians. Pax Romana is a Roman Catholic organisation. HRW works hand in hand with such religion-based organisations and what else except bias can you expect from them?

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/22/un-racism-conference-fails-caste-based-discrimination

Even as the issue is ignored at the conference, caste discrimination remains a massive problem in countries like India, where ongoing elections have once again exposed the challenges faced by Dalits. NCDHR, which has been monitoring the elections, has found that many Dalits are not being allowed to freely exercise their democratic rights, and are being beaten, threatened, and obstructed from voting at local polling stations.

This is a total and blatant lie. In India, there is no possibility of any Dalit group however small it may be being prevented from voting. Look at the way HRW presents non-existent and utter falsehood as truth.

None of them speak of the sufferings of aboriginals in the American Continent or for that matter the elevated status accorded to the Royal families in European countries including UK or for that matter the Lords and Dukes of the Britain. The bias against the Non-European populace is very obvious in these works.

This apart, none of them would speak a word against the religious discrimination practiced in almost the whole of Middle East Asia, because they need oil and also because of the lure of arms market.

Please visit the following links:

http://www.tamilhindu.com/2009/11/kilvisharam-hindus-refuse-to-be-dhimmis/

http://puduvaisaravanan.blogspot.com/2007/01/blog-post_7018.html

In Tamilnadu, people of a whole village, Kilvisharam, are treated as second class citizens just because they are Hindus and the Melvisharam village Panchayat is governed by Muslims who are in a majority as a whole. None in the Government speak against. The Indian media has not highlighted this discrimination. It is for the people to fight for justice up to Supreme Court. The so-called HRW will turn a blind eye to this fact, because it is perpetrated against the Hindus.

I must say that there are certain pockets in Madurai district where the Dalits are refused participation by the Thevars in the Annual Car festival. The Government has acted strictly and has brought about some correction, yet more has to be done. Similarly, in another village in Theni district, there had been an instance of wall having been made between the hamlets where the Dalits live and the Pillais live. This wall has recently been removed. Please note that in all these cases the other dominant castes are the cause and the Brahmins are no way involved. That is the reason why the organisations like the HRW or Pax Romana or Lutheren World Federation or IMADR do not take up such issues.

Among the Christians in a village in Villupuram District, the Dalit Christians are not allowed to participate in common service along with the Vanniars and this issue is also not fully resolved. There are certain villages in Vellore, Chittoor and Tiruvannamalai districts where there are Naidu Christians discriminating against the Dalit Chrisitians in Church prayers and festivals, and these are not highlighted by any Human Right organisation, including HRW

In sum and substance these reports are biased and sometimes carry exaggerated or even concocted accounts to satisfy their bias. The example of prevention of dalits to vote is one such concoction.

If you go through the reports of all these organisations, you will notice that they take up only issues like torture in prison as far as European right wing countries and USA are concerned. These organisations will never touch upon other forms of discrimination like the Feudal system or those based on religion in all such countries.

As such a large-scale discriminator against India is accusing India of discrimination!!!

All these caste based discriminations are used by Christian missionary to pursue their own agenda. The solution offered by you to admit more into brahmin community cannot match the vile of the Missionary.

The first step is to maintain the present population and this is what I had advised.

I suggest that you do a research on a subject. The call to break the Caste wall given by Paul Divakar at Human Rights Watch was with an ultyerior motive. Your endorsement of the said call to me is obviously without research. I am reading every report of the UN Human Rights Committee in the past three plus years.

Try not to call the views of others with such strong adjectives like irresponsible, callous, hubris and tribalistic.

A discussion will transform to a decision if words of "amity" are used.
A discussion will transform to a bitter episode if "objectionable/ hard words" are used.

Cheers

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu

Namaskarams.

i can see where appaiah is coming from. it is from his perception, and many like him, that the world we grew up and flourished is threatened.

not only threatened with diminishing, but within a few generations, extinction, a la the parsis. these are based on the old paradigms

ie: insularity & no conversion from other groups.

You got me wrong, Sir. I don't feel threatened, nor I feel insecure. I have been taught that this life is uncertain. With the life itself at stake, what more is there to be insecure about?

Not that I have flourished in anything that I am going to lose only now.

I am concerned about heritage. I am concerned about the Society. I am concerned about the Nation. I am concerned about humanity. People who have known me personally would vouch that I am talking the truth.

I firmly believe that heritage protects Society, Nation and the humanity. Heritage is built on customs and tradition. Some of the customs may become obsolete over time and may be given up. Some may get added. But the core will always remain. The preservation of the heritage will surely help the Society in maintaining harmony. A harmonious Society will build a strong and vibrant Nation like India. The emergence of India and China in the last two decades is attributed to their respective culture and heritage, not by me, but by many economists. It is just not my perception.

Regards

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you appaiah.

if i can think of any substantial reply in the next few days, i will post it.

thanks for your detailed response.

 

[pannvalan]

I am happy to find Appaiah's concurrence with some of my views.

I am also of the opinion that culture plays a very crucial, but silent and invisible role in shaping the destiny of a nation. As far as India is concerned, India has grown tremendously in the past 100 years, after 1200 years of slavery. And it continues to grow in a healthy and steady fashion.

Therefore, it is quite natural for anyone like us to feel concerned (not threatened)
by the attempted cultural onslaught so as to deprive us of our invaluable heritage. And unwittingly, in the name of inquisitiveness, openness and democracy, we also
aid this not fullly understood conspiracy.

I am initiating a separate thread on some of the relevant points I wish to raise in this connection.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

I am happy to find Appaiah's concurrence with some of my views.

I am also of the opinion that culture plays a very crucial, but silent and invisible role in shaping the destiny of a nation. As far as India is concerned, India has grown tremendously in the past 100 years, after 1200 years of slavery. And it continues to grow in a healthy and steady fashion.

Therefore, it is quite natural for anyone like us to feel concerned (not threatened)
by the attempted cultural onslaught so as to deprive us of our invaluable heritage. And unwittingly, in the name of inquisitiveness, openness and democracy, we also
aid this not fullly understood conspiracy.

I am initiating a separate thread on some of the relevant points I wish to raise in this connection.

I was feeling very much pained to see the singular onslaughts of some members against the opinions of Sri Appiah and some similar opinions earlier also.

I totally concur with Sri Appiah , and Sri Pannvalan in concurring with him.

One of the natural instincts and characteristics of any living thing is to propagate its species. So any couple will like to have offsprings as a natural instinct, unless deliberately and artificially suppressed.The opinions against abortion are still very strong among the Us citizens( section of Christians).In India,even recent history records Muslims opposition to family planning.Many European countries (their popular leaders) are concerned about the dwindling birth rate there.

The parents will like to have the offsprings to have all their own characteristics. A crow will like to have its offspring a crow only, and it will be proud of that.

What I am called is not my botheration.None of the TBs in the forum or outside were born with a name plate "Tamil Brahmin".Others only called them so(Brahmin).Had they called them a different name, we would have been known by any other name.Hence we are not to be blamed for caste difference. But we are convinced and proud to have our own way of life.Nobody has a right to question that ,as far as it is within the moral and civil law of the geographical territory we live.
Hence I an concerned about all others who have similar ways of life.
I am proud to be called "HINDU" ,and "INDIAN".I cherish this great nation's heritage,which is distinct from many other heritages,and will be concerned to have this nation and culture cherish. The only natural way of continuation is continuing and increasing the numbers of population to be sure for sustenance and upkeep and defence.

Persons like Sri Nara are 'Missionaries" --(persons with a singular mission to oppose whatever we feel to cherish this HINDU HERITAGE)-against this.We should not feel ashamed to ignore the likes. Do not answer them.Ignore them.We owe no answer to them.Mahtam Gandhi has taught us passive resistance.

The one and only Hindu nation is gone (Nepal).

The attack is so planned and targeted on the weak and gullible.The attackers will try to hypnotise with magic words .They will isolate a particular section of society and attack it as if they are supporting another section .They will try to appear to be your savious.But this is the jungle trick of segregating the flock and herd and attacking them one each. Let us not fall prey to this tactics.Only if Hinduism survives, the Great Nation of India will survive.It is our mission to see the Great Indian Nation united and strong.And let us oppose anybody attacking that either in a veiled way. There are many "Anukoola Satru"s.(Friendly Enemies). It is making a war in somebody's territory and enjoying the fruits. Keep attention diverted to that and thus aloof from the other severe problems and handicaps. Two birds in one shot.
The present day Hindu temples are getting back their glories with the focussed co-operation of all sections of Hindus.More and mre dilapidated temples are renovated with mass help. Religious and devotional convergences are happening more.More and more Hindus are now convinced that the extra territory vested interests and their loyalists here were all cheating us,doing planned and planted mischief.They are all now waking up to the realities.At the one-one level there is no difference among Hindus. But when such unity appears and the enemies feel threatened by the unity, they draw all tricks and bring up new and new things, spread canards and rumours, plant exaggerated and stories and white lies,apart from resurrecting old and dead things.

Let us not fall prey to these machinations. I welcome Sri Appiah to bring more and strong points in support of his stand, and also exhort all similar minded members to come out openly. To be proud of one's way of life,one's culture etc are not criminal.To hide that is weakness.

With all reverence to the dead soul--When (late)Ms Diana was to get married to British Royal Prince, the English media went on research to find out how much percent British blood was in her.

I want my offspring to be of my blood.

Let my and similar tribe prosper .

Greetings.