Inter caste marriages

[RVR]

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Ms Happy Hindu, My replies are in blue

RVR ji,

My post was to Pannvalan ji who generally, imo, seems to have (or chooses to have) selective anger over selective things....overlooking the follies of brahmins themselves (please note it takes 2 to clap, brahmins cannot keep blaming everything else but consider themselves infallible)...

Brahmins in Tamilnadu are not fighting with any body and I am sure will not do in future also. Hence one hand is not available for clapping.

All i was trying to convey is this --
If past discrimination can be justified in the name of dharma, let there be no complaints about current reverse discriminations. Tough, isn't it?

None of us are justifying the past discrimination. But is it correct to penalise the present generation for the misdeeds of the forefathers?

If caste is removed amongst the individuals, what can politicians do. Isn't that one of the reasons why Jayendra Swami was implicated -- bcoz he reached out to 'dalits' and was removing the 'anti-brahmin' sentiment..Jayendra Swami, am told, even considered a proposal to admit anyone to vedapatshalas irrespective of caste, but wanted to give the idea some time, and refrained from making any move that wud upset the orthodoxy suddenly - obviously such things were seen as a threat by the dravida establishments.

I don't think Daliths want admission in Vedha Padasalas. There main requirement is honourable co-existance with other communities. Learning sanskrit and vedhas are not going to lift them.

If anti-brahminism goes, how will those politicans survive, when they will have nothing to make politics out of.

All these politicians employ only brahmins for managing their personal businesses. Probably they don't believe other communities. Brahmin bashing is purely political.

No sir, politicians are not reminding us of caste. Some certain individuals amongst brahmins and other hindus (the so-called orthodoxy) are. Politicians are only taking advantage of caste.

Brahmins are not reminding caste. They have their own personal practices which nobody has any right to object.

Reg migration to cities, i think its about the same circles. We keep repeating the same things again and again.

Imo, migration to cities is detrimental to the economy. Without anyone to grow crops, am afraid i may have to pay a very high price for food.

75% of the Indian rural population is sharing 25% of national revenues. Unless migration from villages takes place, these people will not come out of poverty. It is pure economics.

The whole point is just this -- unless the caste system goes (so-called "spiritually" and politically) -- there is no hope for an all-inclusive development.

Development must be the only agenda for a country like India. What we require is all round growth. It is the responsibility of the government to provide social protection the poor. Once they give social protection to the needy, it automatically becomes all inclusive growth.

The all-round development you speak of is a selective one, not an all-inclusive one.

An all-inclusive one wud be the one that does not segregate based on the excuse of "shastras", does not seek to demean based on birth, does not seek to "keep caste".

Let Government forget religion and castes. Let them bother about all round development and at the same time support the needy through social protection schemes. Once these people are also lifted out of poverty, there should be an automatic mechanism to withdraw protection cover.

It cud almost be a joke of sorts if some individuals doing such things wish to be considered as an all-inclusive society.

Whatever development is taking place, is despite the nominal caste system that is in existence (nominal, boz of industrialization) -- and that also i think will disappear in due course of time with more modernisation.

It is the older generation (irrespective of caste), imo, that's the biggest stumbling block. The younger generations has, and will reject, caste anyways...And eventually the use of 'caste" as a political platform will be gone...And jobless politicans will need to brace up to an electorate that demands performance..

Nobody is preventing the younger generation. They are very much capable of deciding their future.

Ok i have said enuf. This is a TB forum. Let me refrain from saying anything further.

Best wishes and bye.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Brahmins in Tamilnadu are not fighting with any body and I am sure will not do in future also. Hence one hand is not available for clapping.

But so-called 'brahmins' are opposing the move to admit 'dalits' into vedic schools. So they are practicing segregation that way. There certainly is one hand available for clapping. Only thing is, it does not want to be seen that way.

None of us are justifying the past discrimination. But is it correct to penalise the present generation for the misdeeds of the forefathers?

No its not right. I never said so. My context of asking this question below itself was because its not right to look into the past selctively and have anger over selective things:
If past discrimination can be justified in the name of dharma, let there be no complaints about current reverse discriminations. Tough, isn't it?

I don't think Daliths want admission in Vedha Padasalas. There main requirement is honourable co-existance with other communities. Learning sanskrit and vedhas are not going to lift them.

They do. Please read: Shastras and this: Shastras Its not for us to decide what is going to uplift them or not.

All these politicians employ only brahmins for managing their personal businesses. Probably they don't believe other communities. Brahmin bashing is purely political.

If social inequalities go, they won't have that "brahmin-bashing" to use as a political platform. Which is good.

Brahmins are not reminding caste. They have their own personal practices which nobody has any right to object.

No sir, by preventing and restricting entry to vedic schools, they are segregating and thereby reminding people of caste. Nobody asked them to give up their prayers and practices.

75% of the Indian rural population is sharing 25% of national revenues. Unless migration from villages takes place, these people will not come out of poverty. It is pure economics.

Alright sir, i accept yout POV even if it means i have to pay a bomb for my daily food with no agri-labour left in villages. In any case, that has nothing to do with admission to vedic schools.

Development must be the only agenda for a country like India. What we require is all round growth. It is the responsibility of the government to provide social protection the poor. Once they give social protection to the needy, it automatically becomes all inclusive growth.

Yes that's the duty of the government. But are religious institutions following the government. The constitution calls for equality, not for segregation by birth. Your POV is about the government. Alright, let that be. But that has nothing to do with the admission of dalits into vedic schools. Vedas are not the property of brahmins or anyone in this world.

Let Government forget religion and castes. Let them bother about all round development and at the same time support the needy through social protection schemes. Once these people are also lifted out of poverty, there should be an automatic mechanism to withdraw protection cover.

I agree reservations must not be based on caste, but must be based on income. And once out of poverty, a family must not get reservations.

But the government will base its legislation on what the society is. If religious institutions propagate jaati (caste) dharma, how can the government simply forget it.

The 'dalits' obviously want to keep it (even if they are not poor) because its all linked to the jaati-dharma finally. They feel why shd brahmins who denied education to us get education benefits. Unless jaati-dharma is removed, this ideology will not abate.

Yes, despite all hurdles, there certainly has been all-round development esp in the past decade.

 

[C RAVI]

Ms Happy Hindu, My replies are in blue



All the best

Sri RVR ji,

Well said....

Not only political parties, but majority of the commercial establishments believe the trustworthiness of the Brahmin staffs mostly.

As you said, the present generation is not carrying any cast stigma.

Many Brahmin boy and girl are least bothered to be within the frame of Brahmanism and are open to consider any one into their fold irrespective of Cast and Religion.

Now a days most of the common men/women are not living their life as per the demands of their parents and the society.

Now a days its all a matter of individuality. Every one wants to live their own style and no one is bothered about others.

It's we Brahmins who are facing discrimination in a political level.

Socially no one are affected. Off course in villages the social stigma exists. That will continue unless the so called superior cast takes necessary efforts to reform the village setup and not be a plaything in the hands of political.

We Brahmins (if want to take proactive steps for the sake of suffering villagers) may encourage such a so called superior community in villages to go for a just full village setup without cast discriminations.

Or we can request some good film director to produce a film on such a subject that can realise the superior cast community in the villages to adopt equality and respect for all. If possible we can contribute for a good script. Cinema would be a best media to educate people and bring constructive developments.

:director:

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Sister (Happy Hindu) and RVR,

I just expressed my emotions; that's all. I never wanted any one to start any movement or wage a battle to reclaim all that is lost. I agree historical wrongs cannot be corrected, by one individual or a group.

As a person, I am opposed to any sort of violence - physical or mental.

Yet, I am of the firm opinion that words not spoken at the right moment and emotions not expressed in a decent manner will make a person either lunatic or arrogant (accumulated anger/sorrow).

I repeat, I do not guide or incite anyone to retaliate or hit anyone.

But, please remember this:

Tolerance beyond a limit amounts to acquiescence and acceptance.

 

[Nara]

Sri Appaiah:

Thank you for your long responses. I am unable to respond with equally long rebuttals as I am on the road.

However, I would like to address a few of points.

A birth rate of slightly over 2 is supposed to lead to stable population. When you advocate "at least" two children that would lead to increase in population.

In this forum the word "community" is uses as a code for caste. So when you say "our community" I have to take it to mean "Brahmin caste" unless you specify otherwise.

By "community" if you mean Hindus as opposed to Muslims or Christians, even then it is equally callous, selfish and tribalistic. Yes, I use these "harsh" words about the ideas you advocate, not against you as a person.

Of all the ideas you advocate, the most obnoxious (another harsh word about your idea, not about you) is the idea of population control of selected groups. This path leads to dangerous places.

IMO, ideas that generate negative emotions are to be opposed with all the energy one can muster. That is what I am trying to do. As a person Mr. Appaiah, cheers to you.

 

[Nara]

..... After all, Sri Nara is also one among us.

Dear Shri Appaiah:

If one among us is meant in the broadest sense of the word, I am glad to be in that group, say like all humanity, or progressives, etc. But, if "among us" is meant in a tribal way, like TB, Hindu, etc. then I am sorry, please leave me out.

You have a lot to say about HRW and other organizations that you think have a hidden agenda. So be it, I don't have the time to research these links right now. But as Thiruvalluvar says,

எப்பொருள் யார்யார்வாய் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்பது அறிவு.

Let us address the issues. If TB's reform themselves, TB's will be the primary beneficiaries, not some Christian organization with an ax to grind.

India stands alone in refusing admit caste as equivalent to racial discrimination. Discrimination against Dalits is a reality to this day. These are worthy problems to go after. Shrinking population of caste groups is, if anything, a solution to many problems TB's face.

While I wish the worst for the ideas you espouse, I wish you good cheer Mr. Appaiah....

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sister (Happy Hindu) and RVR,

I just expressed my emotions; that's all. I never wanted any one to start any movement or wage a battle to reclaim all that is lost. I agree historical wrongs cannot be corrected, by one individual or a group.

As a person, I am opposed to any sort of violence - physical or mental.

Yet, I am of the firm opinion that words not spoken at the right moment and emotions not expressed in a decent manner will make a person either lunatic or arrogant (accumulated anger/sorrow).

I repeat, I do not guide or incite anyone to retaliate or hit anyone.

But, please remember this:

Tolerance beyond a limit amounts to acquiescence and acceptance.

Dear sir,

Thankyou for this note.

If am not wrong, you too were pretty ok with jamadagni's posts. I hope the opinion of expressing words in a decent manner applies to the likes of him also.

Best wishes.

 

[Nara]

Persons like Sri Nara are 'Missionaries" --(persons with a singular mission to oppose whatever we feel to cherish this HINDU HERITAGE)-against this.

I perhaps would think that Sri Nara’s first post to me was intimidating in nature. That is all. This is the technique normally followed by the road side masters, .....

Ad Hominems like these always brings a smile to me. Those who are unable to concede a point do so indirectly by resorting to name calling.

I am sure most TB's living in India are unaware of the fact that the southern racists of the U.S.use the same language and same terminology viz. heritage, to perpetuate their racist ideology. Sometimes we are deaf to the true import of what we are saying. We need put ourselves on the other side and see whether what we are saying is still fair.

The feeling of victim-hood among TB's makes them vulnerable to rhetoric that promotes us vs. them mentality. This is a dangerous path for TB's to go down. There is simply no way the size of TB can be enlarged through active breeding. It is not going to work.

If TB's value their traditions highly and want it to thrive, open your hearts and minds and let everyone join in. Urge every TB boy/girl to marry only a TNB girl/boy. Treat all off-springs as TB's. This approach is more likely to succeed than any idea that promotes tribalism.

Love will always triumph than schemie designs.

கண்ணோட்டத்து உள்ளது உலகுஇயல் அஃது இலார்
உண்மை நிலைக்கு பொறை. (#572)

People without loving outlook are burden to earth. Promote equality and love among all. That will make the nation great. It may not be a superpower threatening everyone, but one that vaues every citizen regardless of rich or poor, Brahmin or Dalit, Hindu or Muslim or Christian, man or woman.

My prediction is, within the next two or three generations most professionals and middle class people will care little about caste and such.

Cheers!

 

[appaiah]

Dear Mr Nara

Greetings

IMO, ideas that generate negative emotions are to be opposed with all the energy one can muster. That is what I am trying to do. As a person Mr. Appaiah, cheers to you.

You are free to oppose with all the energy. But use all the energy for research and fact based arguments. do not use all the energy for using hard words/ harsh words.

Simply because use of the harsh words create more negative emotions and that too negative emotions most immediately to the person whom you are addressing. While you oppose ideas that generate negative energy, your words generate more negative energy.

I hope you understand.

Cheers to you as a person, as a member of the humanity, as a Tamil Brahmins.com Patron, as a poster and in whatever manner.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Mr Nara

Greetings.

Ad Hominems like these always brings a smile to me. Those who are unable to concede a point do so indirectly by resorting to name calling.

I am sure most TB's living in India are unaware of the fact that the southern racists of the U.S.use the same language and same terminology viz. heritage, to perpetuate their racist ideology. Sometimes we are deaf to the true import of what we are saying. We need put ourselves on the other side and see whether what we are saying is still fair.

Well meaning suggestions and advices are termed by you as the most irresponsible, hubris and tribalistic. Use of the term heritage is picturised by you as racist.

Suggestion to stop using harsh words is retorted with accusation and allegation of creating negative energy.

You say that your time is valuable and you wont do a research to counter arguments based on research.

All I can request you is to atleast do an introspection.

Cheers to you in every manner.

 

[Nara]

Use of the term heritage is picturised by you as racist.

When I wrote those words I expected you to come back with this and you did not disappoint

I am not saying those who want to preserve their heritage are automatically racist. What I am saying is the southern racists in the U.S. use the same rhetoric, and one needs to be careful and examine how much of the heritage one wishes to preserve perpetuates caste separation and superiority. The introspection you recommended for me, and I do sincerely agree that I do need to engage in it as often as I can, is called for here.

Suggestion to stop using harsh words is retorted with accusation and allegation of creating negative energy.

Alright, I agree, I used harsh words. But I think those words were justified in as much as I was only responding to your suggestions, like couples must produce at least 2 children for the purpose of perpetuating the "community" etc. You said in one of your posts in the context of population control,

"I emphasise the point that a correction should take place at the right spot."
​

I don't think any of my words were sufficiently harsh to oppose this ideology.

You say that your time is valuable and you wont do a research to counter arguments based on research.

You have misunderstood me sir. I am on the road and that is the reason I am unable to spend the required time researching what you have thrown at me. After I get back to my home base I will look into it. At the same time, I have to say that you are doing a snow job on me. We need to take one specific topic at a time.

All I can request you is to atleast do an introspection.

Thank you for the suggestion, this is my wish as well.

Cheers to you in every manner.

I suppose you are mocking me, but that is alright. From my side I meant it sincerely, I wish you all the best, I am only opposed to what you are saying.

 

[RVR]

Dear Sister (Happy Hindu) and RVR,

I just expressed my emotions; that's all. I never wanted any one to start any movement or wage a battle to reclaim all that is lost. I agree historical wrongs cannot be corrected, by one individual or a group.

As a person, I am opposed to any sort of violence - physical or mental.

Yet, I am of the firm opinion that words not spoken at the right moment and emotions not expressed in a decent manner will make a person either lunatic or arrogant (accumulated anger/sorrow).

I repeat, I do not guide or incite anyone to retaliate or hit anyone.

But, please remember this:

Tolerance beyond a limit amounts to acquiescence and acceptance.

Dear Sri Pannvalan,

Ms Happy Hindu and me are just discussing/debating. Absolutely no ill feelings whatsoever. Please don't worry.

Ms.Happy Hindu,

I personally feel that the Hindu religious leaders should promote Tamil Bakthi Literature in a big way and avoid sanskrit to a great extent.

Centuries back Bagabvath Ramanuja promoted Nalayira Divya Prabandham which is being followed by the vaishnavaite brahmins also.

Paramacharyal promoted bakthi Tamil Literature in a big way. Thiruppavai, Thiruvembavai, Thiruppalli Ezhuchi, Kolaru Pathigam and other literatures were popularised by Paramacharya. I am amazed by the knowledge of Paramacharya in Tamil Literature which you can see through his writings.

During 7th to 9th Century both Azhwars and Nayanmars integrated all the Tamils through bakthi literature. Both Brahmins and other communities were involved in the movement and infact intercaste marriages were taking place very much during that period.

Subsequent Tamil poets - Arunagirinathar in 14th century and Abhirami Battar 17th century promoted bakthi cult through Tamil only. Both were suppose to be brahmins.

My earnest opinion is `Sanskrit' has created a division among the communities. Infact TB community has done a great service to Tamil Literature. U.Ve.Swaminatha Iyer who lived in last century was regarded as `Tamil Thatha'. But somehow after the rise of Dravidian movement, an impression is being created that TB community is against Tamil because they are chanting mantras in sanskrit.

Let the mutts start promoting Bakthi Tamil Literatures for all communities immediately which will bring all into one fold.

Vedha Patasala is meant for people who take up Purohithar job. I don't mind if the Mutts stop running these patasalas. Only poor brahmin boys taking up Purohithar job join the patasalas. They don't teach regular academic subjects in the patasalas and it is not helpful for pursuing engineering/medical or other degrees. It is parellel to `Madarasas' of Islamic community. It will not help children in all round development.

Agriculture has to modernise and excess labour has to come out. Already harvesting machines, planting machines, tractors etc are deployed in agriculture and it should be pursued more vigorously so that agricultural production doesn't go down because of migration of labour. Infact Government should promote big corporate houses to enter agriculture with modern equipments, seeds and pest control techniques to improve agricultural productivity.

Migration of labour out of rural areas is good for the Indian economy. I am running a manufacturing unit at Chennai and is facing labour shortage. If more people migrate out of agriculture, they will also get engaged throughout the year (Unlike agriculture which is seasonal) and earn better income.

All the best

 

[Nara]

This wall has recently been removed. Please note that in all these cases the other dominant castes are the cause and the Brahmins are no way involved.

You say Brahmins are no way involved, and I will concede that, but what is not undeniable is that Brahmins are indeed responsible in a fundamental way just as long as the Brahmin orthodoxy defends the legitimacy of Manu Dharmashasthras.

In this context I request your answer for the following questions. Please answer these questions as directly as possible.

Will you support admitting Dalits into schools that teach Vedas?
Will you support eradication of the caste system?
Will you support marriage between Dalit and Brahmin youngsters?

Let me recommend this website for your consideration in this regard.
=====

I once again urge the members of this forum to look beyond the immediate parochial interests. Remember the words of the Mahakavi, அன்புதன்னில் தழைக்கும் வையகம்.

Deifying the Mahathma is well and good, and many in the "community" do just that. There was a recent thread about Rajaji and what a great "Brahmin" he was. Yet, no irony is felt when the same people who take great pride in the fact he was a brahmin, bemoan TB girls marrying NB's, many of these NB's being Vaishyas just like Ghandhi.

If it is good enough for Ghandhi and Rajaji, should it not be good enough for those who consider these two people to be the greatest gift to mankind?

IMHO, it does not matter what other castes do or what other people do. As a rational and compassionate individual, think about what the right thing to do is.

Thanks....

 

[Nara]

whose India is it anyway?

In the context of the Hindu heritage please consider this article.

One of the points made in this article is: "every intellectual of India is afraid that it might become a global issue." With Nepal coming to its senses, India stands alone in defense of the caste system.

Some points from this article:

• Nations have pluralities based on race, class, religion and gender. India has all of these and additionally castes that have constructed us as entirely different beings.
• If we are to see Indians as modern social blocs, they live as Adivasis, Dalits, obcs and upper castes. Globalisation is driving the first three blocs into a death trap, and the latter towards a hi-tech economy.
• If India is defined as a nation of ...... if that definition includes owning of wealth—land as property, gold, bungalows, cars, airplanes, IT institutions, star hospitals, hotels, Parliament and assemblies, judicial structures, media and so on—it belongs to the upper castes.
• In class societies, the hope of moving from ownership of skills to ownership of products to ownership of the history of production—the material wealth of that history is an attainable reality for the oppressed. In a caste society, that hope remains a mirage.
• In ancient times, the Adivasis, Chandalas and Sudras had no right to education; and hence no knowledge of national self. Education was the prerogative of the Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas.
• Now, they hear the rhetoric of the Hindutva forces: one nation, one culture, one people. This is only to hoodwink them.
• .... the Dalit-Bahujans ..... realise that the wealth of the nation is actually their sweat and blood and yet does not belong to them, they stand stunned and shocked. What is more is that educational institutions do not recognise their historical contribution; their knowledge is not characterised as meritorious.
• .... But when a proposal for discussing the question of caste at a UN forum comes up, every intellectual of India is afraid that it might become a global issue.
• The once-enslaved African Americans, the migrant Asian-Africans in Britain, the upper caste Indian diaspora in Euro-American countries, they have all acquired the right to total dignity. .... But the Dalits of India have no right to talk about their lost history at international fora and have no right to equal status.
• ...The situation of the Dalit-Bahujan masses is similar to that of a black and beautiful buffalo that gives more milk—white milk at that—than the cows of India, but has no sacred status in civil society and no legal protection in the Constitution. Such a situation forces us to ask, whose India is it anyway?

 

[C RAVI]

If TB's value their traditions highly and want it to thrive, open your hearts and minds and let everyone join in. Urge every TB boy/girl to marry only a TNB girl/boy. Treat all off-springs as TB's. This approach is more likely to succeed than any idea that promotes tribalism.

Love will always triumph than schemie designs.

கண்ணோட்டத்து உள்ளது உலகுஇயல் அஃது இலார்
உண்மை நிலைக்கு பொறை. (#572)

People without loving outlook are burden to earth. Promote equality and love among all. That will make the nation great. It may not be a superpower threatening everyone, but one that vaues every citizen regardless of rich or poor, Brahmin or Dalit, Hindu or Muslim or Christian, man or woman.

My prediction is, within the next two or three generations most professionals and middle class people will care little about caste and such.

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

Well said...I stand by you.

I have highlighted the same in my previous posts...That, promoting inter-cast marriages would only be a better idia to increase TB population and or to wash out cast stigma from India.

Whether we TB like it or not ...that's a different issue. But if we want to seriously find a solution to the cast discrminations in India than Inter Cast marriages would only be a better sollution.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Pannvalan,

Ms Happy Hindu and me are just discussing/debating. Absolutely no ill feelings whatsoever. Please don't worry.

Yes, let me also assure Shri Pannvalan ji that there is absolutely no hard feelings from my end as well.

I personally feel that the Hindu religious leaders should promote Tamil Bakthi Literature in a big way and avoid sanskrit to a great extent......

Let the mutts start promoting Bakthi Tamil Literatures for all communities immediately which will bring all into one fold...

My earnest opinion is `Sanskrit' has created a division among the communities. Infact TB community has done a great service to Tamil Literature. U.Ve.Swaminatha Iyer who lived in last century was regarded as `Tamil Thatha'. But somehow after the rise of Dravidian movement, an impression is being created that TB community is against Tamil because they are chanting mantras in sanskrit.

Yes sir, promoting Tamil bhakti literature is a fantastic idea. It wud be wonderful if matts were to propagate the bhakti spirit and bring various people across all strata under the bhakti fold.

I dunno why there is so much opposition to sanskrit by tamilians. But before it became (ab)used by politicians, perhaps there was a social basis to it.

Mayb it was bcoz brahmins sort of kept Sanskrit knowledge exclusive to themselves in Tamilnadu. They did not sanskritise the others or impart sanskrit knowledge to others.

Let the same mistake not continue now. Whoever is willing to learn Sanskrit, let it be taught to them. Automatically the anti-sanskrit idealogy will subside..

Vedha Patasala is meant for people who take up Purohithar job. I don't mind if the Mutts stop running these patasalas. Only poor brahmin boys taking up Purohithar job join the patasalas. They don't teach regular academic subjects in the patasalas and it is not helpful for pursuing engineering/medical or other degrees. It is parellel to `Madarasas' of Islamic community. It will not help children in all round development.

Truly sir, who really wants to train to be a shastri or purohit in this day and age. Those who are purohits also want their children to take up good (secular) education and get good jobs. That is why in other states, NBs are not joining vedic schools though admission there is open to everyone. The only ones interested in joining vedic schools are the 'dalits'.

And i think its because of the inferiority complex imposed on the 'dalits' due to the scriptures. They want to get out of it. And truly, once they are sanskritised into priests, no one will abuse them for their birth..and when it comes to the time of their own offspring, perhaps they too will realise that its worthwhile to go for secular jobs with better pay-packets..

But as of now, they seek social equality and addressal to their scriptural condemnation. Its better not to oppose them. Let there be equality. They constitute a significant portion of the indian population. Just imagine the problems if they get into anti-state activities against fellow-indians just to retaliate against hindus...

Agriculture has to modernise and excess labour has to come out. Already harvesting machines, planting machines, tractors etc are deployed in agriculture and it should be pursued more vigorously so that agricultural production doesn't go down because of migration of labour. Infact Government should promote big corporate houses to enter agriculture with modern equipments, seeds and pest control techniques to improve agricultural productivity.

Migration of labour out of rural areas is good for the Indian economy. I am running a manufacturing unit at Chennai and is facing labour shortage. If more people migrate out of agriculture, they will also get engaged throughout the year (Unlike agriculture which is seasonal) and earn better income.

i agree sir. It wud be great if corporate houses take to farming and agri-produce.

Best regards.

 

[appaiah]

Contradictions

Dear Mr Nara

Greetings

Orginally posted by Nara: I suppose you are mocking me, but that is alright. From my side I meant it sincerely, I wish you all the best, I am only opposed to what you are saying.

Why should I mock at you? I meant it sincerely, despite what follows here. When I said that you are “one among us”, you retorted,

Posted by Nara: If one among us is meant in the broadest sense of the word, I am glad to be in that group, say like all humanity, or progressives, etc. But, if "among us" is meant in a tribal way, like TB, Hindu, etc. then I am sorry, please leave me out

In fact I meant with the true feeling of brotherhood if not anything else. While so, you took the first opportunity to spurn a well intended, well meaning three words “one among us” with different connotations and perspectives.

Why should you have personal animosity even to accept that you are one among us? Am I untouchable or for that matter assuming even if I had stated that you are one among Tamil Brahmins, why should you term it as tribal? Is that such an untouchable tribe that you don’t want to be among? Is this site itself not named TamilBrahmins.com and are you not a patron?

And then you also said “As a person, cheers to you” I still felt that I must encompass every aspect of you despite all your opposition and degradation of my thoughts and writings and despite all your animosity to be “among us”, I said that cheers in every manner. I stand by my words, when I see you I don’t split you into many personalities as you do of me.

You are saying that I am doing a “snowjob” on you. Why would I do that? On the contrary, you have used every post to denigrate my thoughts, writings without any basis, you go to the extent of saying

Posted by Nara: While I wish the worst for the ideas you espouse, I wish you good cheer Mr. Appaiah....

If a thought is not acceptable to you, then just say that it is unacceptable. Do you have to denigrate? Do you think that you have the authority to denigrate whoever thinks not in line with you? What would you call such a practice as? Intolerance? Dictatorial? Fascist? Surely you need to introspect.

You had advised that the Brahmins should marry non-brahmins and admit them as Brahmins. I have my own views on this advice, the foremost reason being it won’t be practised but only preached. But I never denigrated this advice with any of the depletive that you used on my thought. You increased the intensity of denigration after I point out. I did not wish the worst for your ideas.

Your sub-conscious mind is not accepting (this) your own advice. Here is the evidence, my dear brother.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3182-sri-vaishnavam.html

This is a thread “Engae Sri Vaishnavan?” Started by you. I was touched by the post when you queried as to why the holy ideas advised by the hymn have still not been followed.
Look at these aspects:

• Sri Andal is one of the twelve venerated Alwars. As you said the Alwars hold an exalted position. They are revered as Nithyasoory avatharas.
• There is a probability/ possibility that Sri Andal could have been born to Brahmin parents also and abandoned, which child Perialwar could have found.
• She was brought up by none other than Perialwar himself.
• Sri Andal married Lord Ranganatha Himself and therefore the wife of worshipful Perumal.
• Sri Andal is not available in physical form today and accepting her or not does not create any practical issues as pointed out by you referring to the link provided about the Uttar Pradesh Dalit lady Phool Kumari.

Despite all these, you did not include her as a Brahmin in the first instance.

Sri RVR queried you as well

Posted by RVR:Since Andal is daughter of Periyazhwar, why you have not classified her as TB. Probably because she is married Rangamannar, you must have left her out of caste system.

Posted by Nara: Hello RV sir, Andal was found by Periazhvar, not born to him, that is why I did not include her among Brahmins.

This is your stand as nearly as on 8th and 9th November 2009.

Now I have the following question to you.

If you are not including even the venerated Nithyasoory Avatara Andal, who is brought up by Perialwar who is the wife of Lord Ranganatha as a Brahmin, how do we believe that any non- Brahmin girl married to a Brahmin in the day to-day life these days will be accepted by you as a Brahmin?

Are you not contradicting yourself? Is it not "preaching and not practising"?

It is very obvious that your sub-conscious mind does not accept what you have been advising the others to follow.

Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharishi saw all living beings as embodiment of the Brahman. It is only in Ramanashrama one will find the samadhi not only for the Guru but also for the Cow, Dog, Crow, Peacock (all the pets of Sri Ramana). Daily offerings are made to evey one of them. For him, all living beings were equal. He had a global following. He taught not only to Brahmins or Hindus or Indians but every human being whether Indian or foreigner. Under his guidance, many Europeans, Americans and Australians went through Brahmopadesam and even this date, one will find many of them in the Ashramam wearing the traditional Veshti and Angavstram and Poonool and sporting Kudumi.

He taught them what many consider as the simplest form of meditation, the Atma Vicharanai or Who am I. I suggest you try this system. It will bring peace in your mind, remove the contradictions and understand friendly gestures and affection when these are shown to you. Believe me, I do introspection myself.

The Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi website

I mean it when I call you my dear brother.

Cheers

 

[appaiah]

Schools for Archakas, Tirumurais, Thevaram, Naalaayiram etc

Dear Happyhinduji

Namaskarams

originally posted by:
Once 'brahmins' stop opposing admission of 'dalits' to vedic schools, and give them enuf respect, all sections of the society will eventually start treating them ok. They need not suffer from ill-treatment just because the so-called upper castes wants a 'brand' or an 'image'.

The Government of Tamilnadu has started Schools for Archakas in some temples. Prior to 1996, though the TN Government insisted that poojas be held in Tamil, they did not want to hold out that the Hindu literature in Tamil had its glorious place. In a symposium in 1996, I presented a paper on the heritage value of temples, the literary works, the architecture, the Shilpas, the art, dance and music associated with it. The Minister for Tamil Development and Culture called me aside after the symposium, appreciated my paper and we had a one to one discussion for a few days following that. The result was that the Tamil development and culture and HR & CE ministries were combined in 1997. But in 2001 for political reasons, the next political dispensation dismantled the set-up. As follow up of the views expressed by me to the Minister, from 1997-98 onwards, the TN Government started Schools for Thevaram, Naalayiram and Tirumurais, Natyam, traditional music, Nagaswaram in various temples. Every year in five temples the schools were established. The natural extension of this scheme is the Schools for the Archakas and other disciplines as part of some of the temples. In a way, my presentation has been a catalyst. This seems to be a long drawn process. I do not think that these can be established over night in many places, given the lack of interest in religious activities by the Government.

 

[renuka]

Which ever way anyone chooses to promote caste intergration please make sure no one converts to another religion.
Let Hindus remain Hindus.
In most interreligous marriages Hindus are always at the losing end.

 

[C RAVI]

Which ever way anyone chooses to promote caste intergration please make sure no one converts to another religion.
Let Hindus remain Hindus.
In most interreligous marriages Hindus are always at the losing end.

Well said Dr.Renuka ji, :thumb:

I think we Hindu were least bothered about having substantial population. We are one among the minority communities internationally.. Might be because we Hindus lack unity among our self due to cast systems.

Today morning, I just had a casual discussion with one of my Arabic colleagues. He says that Islam could wide spread globally because of the initiative that our people have taken long before. We are proud to be in majority than Christians and Jews as per statistical reports.

I asked him - Why you people are so concerned about your population and why still you encourage and support your boys marrying a Christian girls to increase your population?

He said - This is the instructions of ALLAH. As per ALLAH'S instruction (That's been clearly stated in Quran), we are carrying out the orders and could now succeed. We obey our principles sincerely and we are true Muslims.

Do we Hindus really have any such missions?

I asked this question to my self....

 

[renuka]

Dear all,

I dont really think the caste division would make any difference to be a Hindu.
One need not even go to the temple to realise GOD.
There are so many paths to realise GOD, Bhakthi, Jnaana, Karma and RajaYoga.
I know people who have converted to other religions. When they were Hindus they would blame God for everything and claim that their new found religion gives them peace and GOD has answered their prayers.
But in reality their unsolved personal problems still persists but its even worse because they are in a state of delusion and denial thinking there is no problem.

Hinduism gives us the most freedom. Freedom to talk, Freedom to fight, Freedom even not to pray.
No compulsion, No devil to blame for shortcomings. Everything is just for us to choose and decide.
Even in democracy we dont have this much freedom.
One still needs to vote in democracy.
In Hinduism no need to vote to choose anything all is already provided.
Choice is just in our minds.
in other religions no one dare question, oppose or disbelieve. all hell will break loose and heads will roll.
all of us here still have our heads on.its just a war of words not swords here.
Other religions have the "Yes Sir, Yes Sir, Three Bags Full" concept.

In Hinduism there is no place for "Ba Ba Black Sheep".
Lets cast differences aside and enjoy the freedom only seen in Hinduism and no where else.

 

[renuka]

Dear all,

I am giving a suggestion here.
I notice many Non Brahmins(not all) in Malaysia do not really like to know Sanskrit.
Many feel its like "Hindi" partly because of the Devanagari script and hence feel alienated.

Maybe to promote Sanskrit in all divisions both brahmins and non brahmins revival of Grantham Script in writing Sanskrit can be encouraged.
A more Tamil looking script might ignite the desire to learn Sanskrit.
Many can feel more at home in a script which is "theirs" and also realise the past Hindu glory in Tamil Nadu written in Grantham.
This is only a suggestion. On my own I have no problem with Devanagari script and only know very basic Grantham.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Having compared me with someone, you have conveyed what you wanted to. Now you say, 'no hard feelings'.

I have neither hard nor soft feelings in this connection.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Having compared me with someone, you have conveyed what you wanted to. Now you say, 'no hard feelings'.

I have neither hard nor soft feelings in this connection.

Please let me know where i have compared you with someone.

You said this:

Yet, I am of the firm opinion that words not spoken at the right moment and emotions not expressed in a decent manner will make a person either lunatic or arrogant (accumulated anger/sorrow).

Therefore i said this: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/37404-post162.html

If am not wrong, you too were pretty ok with jamadagni's posts. I hope the opinion of expressing words in a decent manner applies to the likes of him also.

That does not mean i have compared you to jamadagni.

No hard / soft / any feelings this end too. Its just a discussion.

 

[Nara]

Dear Brother Appaiah:

Greetings!

As I said earlier, I am happy to be one among us in the sense of all humanity. But, in as much as I no longer consider myself a TB, I can't be "one among" the TB's. I thought I made that very clear. I accept your offer of brotherhood in humanity, but not as a TB.

I agree, I need to do lot of introspecting. I also agree that when we oppose ideas we need not put down those ideas. But, I strongly think that ideas that promote caste feelings and insularity do not deserve any such delicacies.

I once again agree with you that promoting marriage between B and NB will not be practiced. The preferable option is to abandon caste altogether. But I know this is even more impractical in the present climate of caste feelings among all, including the TB's.

I suppose you are missing the point of the series of posts I made under Enge Srivaishnavam. The point was not who should be included as B's, it was to point out even the so called Brahmins among Azhvars rejected treating bhagavathas bady based on caste and yet these bad treatments are routiney carried out in Sri Vaishnava institutions today.

I think I have answered all the points you raised in the last post. You may not agree with some of my answers, but they are my views all the same.

Now, may I request you to answers the questions I raised that you have ignored.

Cheers!