intercaste marriages

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

The wedding ceremony is important to those who believe that these rituals and mantras will help in making a successful marriage.

For those who do not believe in it there is always the simple Registered marriage.

 

[happyhindu]

The wedding ceremony is important to those who believe that these rituals and mantras will help in making a successful marriage.

I sincerely wish it did. Then i wud not be seeing so many unsuccessful weddings around (which were performed with all homams and rituals so carefully). It is all in God's Hands, i wud like to beleive. to me, horoscope matching, wedding rituals, observing auspicious timings, etc does not decide destiny as much as God does.

 

[kunjuppu]

The culture of these two communities is very similar. The basic difference is that they are Saivas and the Smarthas are not pure Saivas. It is a sad state of affairs that these two communities with common values could not come together.

May be in the future these two communities would come together.

nacchi,

i am with you on this . the pillais are so much like us in all respects.

when i was growing up, i used to visit my pillai freinds' houses. they were all vegetarians, their பழக்க வழக்கங்கள் ditto to ours, including seclusion of women during menstruation. apparently they imitated our bad habits too.

i do not know if other tamil castes secluded their women during those '3 days' every month. or the malayalis. i do know my mother would ask our maid not come during her periods.

 

[kunjuppu]

Nairs and Menons no longer follow marumakkathaayam; makkalthaayam is the rule today. Hence most of the characteristics given in the above post do not apply in practice to the Nair/Menon or, for that matter, to most Kerala society, today. Children are named as xyz s/o pqr, or, abc amma d/o wxy amma and so on. And, IMHO, a few of us sitting in one corner of this vast country with limited exposure to the world (though in our own perception, we may carry the grandiose notion that we are "know-it-alls") cannot and should not consider that we are wiser than the young man and lady who fall in love with each other and decide to marry. Tabra-Nair marriages have been there in the olden days also. Those were சின்ன வீடு type of arrangements but the said சின்ன வீடு used to become the regular address of the tabra, as time passed. That goes to the credit of the nair/menon lady vis-a-vis the tabra wife .

Sangom,

I have heard the womenfolk of our house, when I was young, used to whisper that the nair women preferred pattars. All of my grandfather’s generations had chinna veedu type associations, whether they were rich or not.

Which might account for the nair males to feel jealous or hostile towards the pattars?

Ofcourse all this is past history. Today, the nairs are no different than us re family structure. We have close friends, and I would have no objection (correction, would welcome) marital relationships with that community.

 

[kunjuppu]

Another community similar to the Nairs, except for some practices is the Kayastha community. There are a lot of marriages that happen with this community and brahmins in that side of India. In my visits to Calcutta and UP, I have seen even our TBs mingling with them fairly well. In Bengal many TBs have quickly adjusted to the culture of Bengal. In their homes, the age old practices are continued. The younger generation however very well adapt to the Bengali habits- smoking, meat, fish etc. It can be a delightful interaction with the bengali babu especially for a TB.

In attitudes the Bengali babu(brahmin and non brahmin both) is much like the TB. The same passion for education, similar kind of appearance, similar attitudes to religion( there are orthodoxy among bengalis too).

I am sure even those from traditional TB families can adapt easily into a Bengali marriage if they ignore the food difference. But in that land food is not really considered a taboo and there is nothing to feel ashamed of one's food habits.

I have seen a produce of this intermarriage. An intellectual young man I met. Studious like the typical tambram samathu paiyyan. Our conversation began when he noticed me speaking in tamil. The connection went as deep as my native village. I had no idea I was interacting with a half bengali product. But then it surprised me to know his parentage.

It is a good case study on how the root of a TB cannot be necessarily lost in intermarriages.

subbudu, i will agree with you 100%. i have 3 relatives, all girls married to bengali guys. very handsome looking guys. and as you said, pretty accomplished academically too.

two of the girls were born and brought up in calcutta. i guess they would have no pbm re food though i do not know their culinary arrangements at home.

but the third one, is from toronto, and i know that she manages a strict veggie kitchen. the poor banga babu has to go to his mother's house for his fish.

 

[sangom]

Your views on GOD are also a pre-conceived notion. Agnostism is as much a pre-conceived notion as Bhakthi. When you point a finger at one one please notice that three fingers are pointing at you.

You have tried that in almost all the threads started by me and argued with the moderators about your right to do so.

Tolerance has to be practiced not only preached. You have been trying to impose your views on GOD on the memenbers of this forum.

To start with the hypothesis "I do not know if there is a god, if that god is what you describe of him, etc., is much better a way, though it is also a pre-conceived lack of notion - IMHO - than to start with some fixed ideas about god (the force which manifests as LIFE in all of us) and then trying to defend those views. If you or anyone else is able to prove the existence of a GOD of any particular description, to my logical satisfaction, I will readily agree that GOD exists and that HE is like this, this, etc. So far none has done that.

But, for bhaktas, it becomes their duty to defend the notion (only, because here again there is no logically convincing proof) of their god and any perceived failure on their part in defending their god will be a great fault and unpardonable sin on their part. In all these childish play, the real GOD seems uninterested and unconcerned and has, till today, refused to reveal HIMSELF/HERSELF to ordinary mortals in any intelligible way.So, my simple query is that why should we not also show the very same unconcern to that GOD? I do not know which three fingers point to the agnostic when he/she says there is no GOD and cannot therefore point out anything as GOD; whereas the bhaktas always have something to point out (be it the idol in the temple, the fire in the altar,or whatever) as the god and so, consequently, three fingers will be pointed towards them IMO.

 

[sangom]

Sangom,

I have heard the womenfolk of our house, when I was young, used to whisper that the nair women preferred pattars. All of my grandfather’s generations had chinna veedu type associations, whether they were rich or not.

Which might account for the nair males to feel jealous or hostile towards the pattars?

Ofcourse all this is past history. Today, the nairs are no different than us re family structure. We have close friends, and I would have no objection (correction, would welcome) marital relationships with that community.

Kunjuppu,

The feedback I have had during a long period is that as a result of ever so many rules of dos and don'ts in the conjugal life of a true brahmana, the woman mostly lost her individuality and got reduced to yet another ஸமித்து to be offered as oblation in the sacrificial fire of the brahman male's lust, whereas the nair woman was a fully accomplished "lover" which gave the tabras who could afford it, to go in for ஸம்பந்தம் (colloquially morphed to ஸம்மந்தம்) as the arrangement was known. Recently my cousin was telling me that he purchsed his ready-built house from one "abc nair son of shri ... Krishna Iyer" and the entire world knows that he (the seller) was the offspring of a ஸம்மந்தம். The interesting thing is that the identity "abc nair son of shri ... Krishna Iyer" has gone into the records for ever and there is no shame felt in any quarters. Such was the legal acceptance of the ஸம்மந்தம் system

I would venture to say, therefore, that a tabra boy who marries a nair girl is luckier than another who marries an agmark pure tabra girl!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I believe in acceptance. I accept all religions as valid paths. I accept Agnosticism and Atheism. That is why I defended your right to to state your beliefs in this forum (and got bashed up).

Unfortunately many Agnostics and Atheists feel compelled to prove that all the others are wrong. There were some members in this forum some years back who were termed as orthodox (in the absence of a better word) who also felt compelled to prove everyone else who differed from their religious views as wrong.

In my opinion this tendency of trying to prove that all others are wrong is inherited from the Abrahamic religions who were the original propounders of modern Agnosticism and Atheism. Product of so called Western Education.

It is not seen in the Hindu philosophies most of which do not believe in a supreme GOD.

The Hinduism I believe in accepts not only all religions but also Agnosticism and Atheism.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Bhakthas and people who hold religious beliefs or for that matter any belief defend their beliefs, when their beliefs are attacked. It is strange that the defender is blamed for defending his belief by the attackers.

Any one who is attacked has the right to defend himself and his beliefs.

 

[Nara]

... Agnostism is as much a pre-conceived notion as Bhakthi.

Mr. Nacchinarkiniyan,

AFAIK, agnosticism is the very antithesis of preconceived notion. An agnostic is one who says when there is lack of knowledge, i.e. verifiable evidence, one cannot arrive at a firm conclusion about a thesis. On the other hand, the very foundation of Bhakti is to be firm in the conclusion that there is a god who loves you with absolutely no verifiable evidence. So, to say both agnosticism and Bhakti are equally preconceived is untenable.

Please note, I am not attacking Bhakti here. To believe in god or not, to have bhakti or not, is up to each individual to work out.

When you point a finger at one one please notice that three fingers are pointing at you.

We are just talking here, I have not seen any personal accusation or sarcastic put downs that are openly practiced elsewhere in this forum itself by others. To disagree is not intolerance, and all I have seen here are, disagreements.

..Unfortunately many Agnostics and Atheists feel compelled to prove that all the others are wrong.

I ask you not to take simple discussions/arguments as trying to prove you wrong. Also, IMHO, there is no need to fear being proved wrong -- if a view I hold is wrong, I rather get proved wrong sooner than later. This is not a contest to win or face defeat. An idea has value or not. A well thought out cogent argument must be answered, not seen as an attempt to prove you wrong.

In my opinion this tendency of trying to prove that all others are wrong is inherited from the Abrahamic religions who were the original propounders of modern Agnosticism and Atheism. Product of so called Western Education.

Alright, that is your opinion. My opinion is, Agnosticism and Atheism are as ancient as the Vedas themselves. It was never "accepted" by "Hinduism" -- I am not sure what that would be, Hinduism accepting Agnosticism and Atheism. For example, Lord Sri Rama gives a severe dressing down to a great rishi Jabali after which Jabali backs off. None of Charvaka texts are extant today most probably because they were destroyed by the Bhaktas. Among Hindus, a nAstika conjures up an image of a monster. So, I am unable to accept that Hinduism "accepts" Agnosticism and Atheism. All that can be said is, Agnosticism and Atheism were part of the philosophical milieu in India from ancient times.

Bhakthas and people who hold religious beliefs or for that matter any belief defend their beliefs, when their beliefs are attacked. It is strange that the defender is blamed for defending his belief by the attackers.

Any one who is attacked has the right to defend himself and his beliefs.

Placing arguments that challenge long held views is not attacking. Attacking would be to say all Bhaktas are deranged monsters, that would be attacking. To say that there is no evidence to believe in the existence of a personal god, who cares about the human condition, who listens and answers to prayers, etc., etc., is an argument that needs rebuttal. To see this as an attack is unreasonable.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

YouTube - Billy Joel - We Didn't Start The Fire

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

When I was in Kolkatta during 1979 to 1982,my relative(father's younger brother's wife--chitti)came to see the city with her son.It was around 12thJanuary,1980.I was alone then.I went to Howrah station to take them to my residence.Normally Howrah station used to be crowded at any given time.That day I noticed the crowd was unusually heavy.Many illiterate people from Bihar and UP were coming.I asked one gentleman
who informed me that these people are proceeding to Ganga Sagar(where Ganges enters the Bay Of Bengal)to take a dip.Ganga Sagar is about 60 miles from Kolkatta and people have to travel by Bus.As usual in large congregations,many people loose their luggage,purse,sometimes their kith and kin.One has to pay a good price for even getting into unreserved compartments.To my surprise, the morale of the people was always high and nothing prevented them from visiting year after year.So long I stayed in Kolkatta, I made it a point to spend considerable time in Howrah
from January12th to 15th just to see this crowd.During those days, somehow rightly or wrongly,I used to think that I,being an educated person,
I cannot put myself to the difficulties which these iilliterate people subject themselves year after year.Whenever I saw in TV lakhs of hindus taking dip in ganges in Haridwar on icycold water on certain religious days,my respect, reverence and regards to such people increased.After all these people are'BELIEVERS' in some faith.I can only respect such people for their'Belief'.

 

[biswa]

The Bengalis are an interesting case

I do agree as mentioned by several forum members that they were at one point until the early 1970s I think (before the advent of the communists) intellectually at or above the level of any other group in India. The literature, music, films, art, science were at a very advanced state of development. That is also the era when many Tamil Brahmins settled in Kolkata, mainly in the Bhowanipore area.

The integration was phenomenal, to the extent that if a Tamil Brahmin spoke Bangla, there was no way to distinguish him/her from the local population. I think the Tamilians and Bengalis revelled in their mutual intellectual capabilities, even though there weren't many mixed marriages (except for a few well-known ones, e.g Ashok Vishwanathan, son of N. Vishwanathan).

Interestingly though, now in the current age, everything is reversed. With the ascendancy of the south, in modern India, a lot of Bengalis have made their way to places like Bangalore. I have seen lots and lots of coupling in IISc Bangalore for instance where both Tamilians and Bengalis have decided to marry their intellectual matches.

 

[renuka]

Out here in Malaysia we have Foreign Contract Workers from Bangladesh and also Tamil Nadu and people many a times do get confused cos they tend to look alike.
Enough times people have spoken Tamil to a Bangladeshi and they will say.."I dont know what you saying..I Bangla" and enough times people have spoken some Malay(bangladeshis learn Malay fast) to a Tamilian worker and he says he is a Tamilian.

I often wondered how come the average Bengali and average Tamilian look so alike.
Even in college I have noted many resembeling even Malayalis with their rather curly hair.

 

[subbudu1]

Out here in Malaysia we have Foreign Contract Workers from Bangladesh and also Tamil Nadu and people many a times do get confused cos they tend to look alike.
Enough times people have spoken Tamil to a Bangladeshi and they will say.."I dont know what you saying..I Bangla" and enough times people have spoken some Malay(bangladeshis learn Malay fast) to a Tamilian worker and he says he is a Tamilian.

I often wondered how come the average Bengali and average Tamilian look so alike.
Even in college I have noted many resembeling even Malayalis with their rather curly hair.

Some people say. I dont if it is true. But there was a lot of exchange of people during chola times. Somebody told me the sena rulers have some link with chola families. There are also stories about dakshinatya brahmins. Some also say that genetically there are many close links between some tamils and bengalis. Wish a knowledgeable person can provide these details. Here is a link I thought I will provide especially for interested people.
I dont know genetics and what to make of it. But if you understand please provide your valuable insights.
Link is here http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/temp/jgen00117.pdf

 

[renuka]

Some people say. I dont if it is true. But there was a lot of exchange of people during chola times. Somebody told me the sena rulers have some link with chola families. There are also stories about dakshinatya brahmins. Some also say that genetically there are many close links between some tamils and bengalis. Wish a knowledgeable person can provide these details. Here is a link I thought I will provide especially for interested people.


I dont know genetics and what to make of it. But if you understand please provide your valuable insights.
Link is here http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/temp/jgen00117.pdf

Genetics is a complex subject..In this link the author prefers to use the word Dravidian and Indo Aryan which is not really scientifically in vogue now.
He should have stuck to the word current day in habitants of the state he wanted to refer too.

Migration of races occur all the time..you know with the arrival of Bangladeshis and Pakistani foreign workers here in M'sia who have brief marriage with the immigrant Indonesion female workers..they have babies too and we see so many Racial Hybrids here.
Imagine those days when our ancestors roamed places..God knows what happened..see who did what with whom..wells thats Genetics..


You know i have noted that being linked with the so called Indo Aryan group does give some sense of superiority to some South Indians cos even some Non Brahmins groups have genetic links with these racial groups.

And a genetic link with the European racial groups does give some sense of superiority to certain North Indians and the European racial groups feel a sense of superiority that everyone wants to be their distant cousin..some alien could be watching us earthlings and saying Bloody Humans!!! they havent seen us yet.!!!

Genetics is a good subject to study racial migration and possible medical related info in each one of us and it should just stop there.
Cos its such a dynamic subject..while discussing it now some hybrid is being born somewhere..so it just up to us to "Heal the world..make it a better place..for you and me and the entire Human Race"

http://youtu.be/BWf-eARnf6U

If I get more info I will post..but dont worry..you opened Pandoras box..there will be many responses.

 

[subbudu1]

nacchi,

i am with you on this . the pillais are so much like us in all respects.

when i was growing up, i used to visit my pillai freinds' houses. they were all vegetarians, their பழக்க வழக்கங்கள் ditto to ours, including seclusion of women during menstruation. apparently they imitated our bad habits too.

i do not know if other tamil castes secluded their women during those '3 days' every month. or the malayalis. i do know my mother would ask our maid not come during her periods.

My what giants this community produced. Ramalinga Swamigal - also known as Vallalar. Everybody speaks today about Vivekananda and Narayana Guru. But this great saint born before all these saints spread revolutionary ideas on caste , purity and god.

Ramalinga swamigal's life needs a separate study. A great saint he was who transcended caste and superstitions.

 

[gopaindu]

Brahmins are those who live simple, do not worry about tomorrow, they wish wellness of the community in general and advise the people who seek their advice without any fear. They also advise in a manner which is beneficial to the seeker but not for the sake of pleasing the person. He is also the one who always wishes others should be well. He prays for others. He performs rituals for the benefit of others. He is selfless and has absolute faith in God that he would take care of him and his family as he created them and it is his duty to protect them. Since other castes do not have that much level of faith in God. Further, brahmin's duty is to help the needy in terms of material or advise within his limits. Considering these factors a brahmin in real terms is to be searched as he is readily not available. Further, the castes have stopped following their hereditary profession long aga.This being the case, the present caste system is divided into clerks, engineers, doctors, MBAs, MSs, etc. Of course, problems arise in adjusting oneself to the new customs of the other due to ego problems. To preserve brahmin community what one could do is to live simple, charitably, advise only when sought, have absolute faith in god, etc. to the extent possible. N.Rajagopalan, [email protected]