Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[SuryaKasyapa]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

In this link,are photos an reports of Kanchi Acharya and Maata Amritandamayi meeting.
Two revered souls meeting.Let it bring all goodness to all.

Sankaracharya of Kanchi meets Amma Amma, Mata Amritanandamayi Devi @ amritapuri.org

Greetings

 

[happyhindu]

• I have mentioned about the ruling castes and their contribution to sustaining the castes till this day and you have simply ignored it as if it is not a thing to be mentioned or it does not exist. This some intellectual fairplay!! I repeat “for Kshaqtriyas, Vyshyas and Shudras the caste system was convenient as long as the economy was largely dependent on agriculture and manual labor. It is they who converted the castes into an instrument for oppression and exploitation. Not Brahmins. Brahmins, being of no consequence, just played along. With science and time when awareness increased and casteist exploitation became more and more inconvenient to defend these ruling castes needed a scape goat, a whipping boy, an idiot to point the accusing fingers at and that role was eminently conferred on Brahmins and we are there now.” I am repeating all these only to get your views on these specific points.

Raju,

Please let me know what you think of the smrithis which overwhelmingly favour brahmins, flog shudras and totally demean the outcaste dalits.

Who do you think produced such literature?

And who in the present day holds on to scriptural or "spiritual" basis for birth-based segregative caste discrimination ?

I have also mentioned the single point agenda of Peiyarists. Now from your postings here and your arguments in which you are repeatedly blaming the Brahmins alone for the casteism I get an impression that you are one of those periyarists for whom the only solution for casteist atrocities is to bring the Brahmins down on all their fours.

This is just to know -
do let me know if you think that seeking inclusiveness in vedic education amounts to being periyarists?

 

[Nara]

Dear Raju, Greetings....

Long are your objections, much of them simply besides the original point, namely, whether Brahmins must bear any responsibility for the heinous acts committed in the name of caste by others.

I said yes to this because of the intellectual justification given to this system by institutionalized Brahminism. You objected to this by saying these are "exotic and high sounding inexactitudes”.

I took this head-on and gave my answer in post # 589. Let me add the following as further clarification.

• Intellectual justification for the varna/caste system comes from Rg. Vedic verse on Varna, Dharmashahthras like Manu, caste based atrocities in Ithihasas and puranas. By any reasonable standard these would be accepted as intellectual justification for the varna/caste system.
• The institutions of Brahminism that give these justifications include the various Shankara matams, various Sri Vaishnava matams, various Madhva matams, temple ozhuku of various kinds, and many more). Again, by any reasonable standard these would be accepted as bastions of institutionalized Brahminism.

These phrases are by no means “exotic and high sounding inexactitudes”. They speak directly to the point of the disagreement.

On the other hand, you have provided many points that have no bearing on the question. Your objections seem to be:

• There is no institutionalized brahminism involved in the atrocities
• Brahmins have nothing to do with this dirty, virulent casteism
• There are many undercurrents. Vested interests
• perception that clanic unity is advantageous
• There are a number of politicians (with) a single point agenda-Brahmins
• ‘institutionalized brahminism’ is an exotic, high sounding ..inexactitude,
• Caste system is not the culprit.
• For centuries .. Kshatriya, every Vaishya and Shudra .. treated the panchaman as just a slave
• for Kshaqtriyas, Vyshyas and Shudras the caste system was convenient
• Brahmins .. mistake (was to) going with the current. They did not have any options.
• Well informed Brahmins do not have any guilt in their mind about the castes
• Brahmins go to bed in the night to sleep well
• you are one of those periyarists for whom the only solution for casteist atrocities is to bring the Brahmins down on all their fours.
• (Brahmins are) a scape goat, a whipping boy, an idiot to point the accusing fingers

Once again, I have already dealt with the first two points in my post # 589 itself and I have done so again here by clarifying the two phrases with concrete examples. None of the other objections, even if I concede them, alter my proposition, namely, even if Brahmins are not directly involved, they must bear responsibility. I explained this further with the Nader analogy.

In so far as the point of this discussion is concerned, I have addressed all your objections that have a bearing. However, you have gone off point into many of your frustrations some of which I may even share. But they do not change the main thesis.

In any case, may I request your response for the main points of my post #589. At the very least please answer the following question.

"At least answer this one question my friend, what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise."
​

I have asked this question several times, perhaps even to you, earlier. Nobody wants to touch it. I wonder why?


If we are going to go in circles I may simply choose to let you have the last word.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

"At least answer this one question my friend, what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise."
​

I have asked this question several times, perhaps even to you, earlier. Nobody wants to touch it. I wonder why?

Cheers!

nara,

The same purpose as we differentiate between blood groups,DNA,Genes,Heritage,Culture,Personality,Skill.

nachi naga

 

[RVR]

In this link,are photos an reports of Kanchi Acharya and Maata Amritandamayi meeting.
Two revered souls meeting.Let it bring all goodness to all.

Sankaracharya of Kanchi meets Amma Amma, Mata Amritanandamayi Devi @ amritapuri.org

Greetings

It is heartening to note that Kanchi Acharya has visited Amma's ashram. Amma hails from the so called low caste fishermen community and has grown to the Guru status. She has followers from all communities in Kerala which is really nice. She is also doing great service to the poor and downtrodden people.

All the best

 

[silverfox]

I do not know the correct answer; however, i am just conjecturing. ... isn't this similar to Muslims having sunny, shiates, bhora, Ahmedia...... I was talking to an Iraqi friend of mine and he told me that the Sunnies will never have anything to with the Shiates! I understand that Ahmedias are not even allowed into Mecca!!
Christians have so many sects - the prostents despising the catholics (a friend of mine called Catholicism as a false religion! in front of a catholic (both are Americans and i had to mediate in their fight!). And...so...it goes.....
every religion has it except they don't call it 'caste'. Of course, I still don't know the answer as to what earthly purpose castes would serve.

nara,

The same purpose as we differentiate between blood groups,DNA,Genes,Heritage,Culture,Personality,Skill.

nachi naga

 

[Nara]

The same purpose as we differentiate between blood groups,DNA,Genes,Heritage,Culture,Personality,Skill.

nachi naga, please tell me in what way caste serves the same purpose as blood group, DNA, genes, personality and skill.

If heritage and culture serve the same purpose as caste, then why not get rid of caste and just keep a common heritage and culture of all Tamils, or even all Hindus if you are religiously inclined. In other words, you have not provided anything that can only be had with caste alone, that will otherwise be denied to the TB's.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

re

nachi naga, please tell me in what way caste serves the same purpose as blood group, DNA, genes, personality and skill.

If heritage and culture serve the same purpose as caste, then why not get rid of caste and just keep a common heritage and culture of all Tamils, or even all Hindus if you are religiously inclined. In other words, you have not provided anything that can only be had with caste alone, that will otherwise be denied to the TB's.

Cheers!

In today's context,caste may seem irrelevant to some,which is quiet natural,owing to modern education system.But if one notices,even in modern education the so called democratically elected representatives half of whom are illiterate dunces,make rules and regualtions and they themselves are above law.

In fact such elected officers of state & central goverment,have fixed norms of admission based on reservations,forward community,backward community,trisanku community and what not.Plus the dalits,harijans,etc.

Today a doctor has to know neccessarily the blood group and other such related matter for diagonising a patient.Again as per law of nature,there is differentiation inherently within us.Caste is ordained by the Lord in Gita.Should we question the LOrd?

What the LOrd said was based on Gunam.It was found,that when a consistently patented family upbringing was mandatory,spiritual practices were heralded with harmony.Just like your eeya sombu rasam & ordinary paathram rasam made.It's in the quality of excellance.

Today we are harmoniously disharmonius in spiritual matter.All asurans are ruling,so daivam is relegated and even questioned whether he exists or NOT.Kaliyugam is only 5111 years old,we still have to wait untill we reach 432 000 years,for Kali Tandavam.

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

In today's context,caste may seem irrelevant to some,...

Dear NN, it is a simple and direct question, "what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise." Please give a straight and direct answer if you have one.

Thank you...

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Is the Caste system weakness of Hinduism?

Sir,
Mr Nara has asked what earthly purpose is served by continuing the
caste system in Hindu Society and can we not live as Hindus without the caste system.
I would request Mr.Nara whether we are really serious in abolishing the caste system in HINDU Society or this topic is discussed only as an academic issue.
If we are serious in abolishing the caste system this requires the cooperation of all sections i.e. comprising all castes and only TBs cannot achieve this singlehandedly.
We require not one social reformer like RAMANUJA but a number of persons like him.
This caste system is continuing for generations and it may not be possible to eliminate the system even after hundreds of years.It is going to be a long drawn process.It is not like merging two or more large companies as one entity.When there is no unity of thinking even among TBS and old prejudices will continue for generations.
I had mentioned in my earlier posting no 458 as to how many are prepared to accept other caste girls as daughter in law or accept
other caste boys as son-in laws.
Any change over from one system has to be orderly and planned in advance
Yes if all hindus in the world are determined it is possible to live as HINDUS without any caste.
B.Krishnamurthy

 

[pvraman]

Dear All,

Is there any culture without caste or race divisions living more happily than us in any country (Model should be like our country with multi language & culture and avial of many religions), so that we can take it as a model to strengthen our discussions for a country free of caste divisions .

Regards

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
CASTE system is social system...infact nothing to do with hinduism
in early years....laterly it included in hinduism.....if we called
caste/varna....its available in all religions...so called reformers
like christianity/buddhism/jainis/sikhism...we can see the shadow
of caste system in hierchy......caste system based on profession...
later it became with birth based system........but we always
big hue and cry in hinduism about caste....now a days old names
of caste name diminishing...instead new names of caste system
..like the name harijan/dalit...these are not caste names...
these are modern new castes.....my 2 cents...

regards
tbs

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir,

Why cant be the varna system/ caste system superior invention, when there was slavery and people were over powered by the power alone. (at times, when the people were barbarians).

I feel that Varna system is the best (I may change if I am convinced that it is not) for those barbaric times, to tame the people who created lot of troubles to the settled tribes. How much barbarians are we now compared to the ancient barbarians? when will we match them?


Did the untouchables protest in ancient days for being untouchables (as old as in 18th century). In 4th Century, the chinese traveller describes chandalas as the one who were untouchables who before entering the market produce unique sounds so that nobody messes with them. Here, they can enter the market and city but at the time, others simply avoided confronting with them (out of fear!!! may be).. So, who were they? and why they were made untouchables in the first place? (on what basis?) in those times.

Regards

 

[suraju06]

Happy Hindu
Please let me know what you think of the smrithis which overwhelmingly favour brahmins, flog shudras and totally demean the outcaste dalits.

This is a loaded question. May I know the reason for your leaving Kshatriyas and Vyshyas from the picture. Considering that It was Kshatriyas who wielded the swords and Vyshyas who controlled the economy, ignoring these people, nothing could have moved in the society even at that time just as it is now. Moreover your question gives an impression that Shudras suffered like the panchamans ( dalits) which is not at all correct. It was only panchamans who were at the receiving end always, then as well as now.The Shudras were also tormentors of panchamans. Now please reframe your question and send. I will answer.

Who do you think produced such literature?

No one knows for sure. Any law written down by a small microscopic fringe group(less than 2% of the total population) will not survive for long (for thousands of years!!) unless it was accepted, owned and implemented by the majority of the society. The majority will accept and zealously guard the law and implement it meticulously only if its vested interests are well taken care of by these laws. In such a situation the law can be considered to be authored by the society and not the fringe microscopic group. The Indian constitution was drafted by the constituent assembly consisting of a few eminent lawyers and others but it is owned by the Indian society because it was accepted by the parliament and is zealously guarded by the elected Government.

And who in the present day holds on to scriptural or "spiritual" basis for birth-based segregative caste discrimination ?

Every one who practices casteism.

This is just to know -
do let me know if you think that seeking inclusiveness in vedic education amounts to being periyarists?

I do not think so. If you are seeking inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness alone or to just prove a point unrelated to seeking knowledge then I would say your cloak is thin and your colours are obvious.

Cheers.

 

[RVR]

Is there a single acceptable `Guru' for the entire Hindu religion? To my knowledge, it is a firm `No'

Then who can give direction to the Hindus to abolish the caste system.

Hindu religion is a very loose religion with multiple philosophies, multiple practices, multiple language etc.

caste has emerged out of these multiple practices along with few more parameters like food habits, nature of work etc.

Various permutations and combinations have worked in evolving a caste system. Each and every combination of these variable has resulted in a new caste.

Only economic propsperity of all communities and migration to cities will remove caste based discrimination. In cities, no body knows what is the caste of his neighbour - he cannot ask him also openly for fear.

Caste based discrimination in education and employment has further complicated the whole system. Those castes which are benefiting from the system will not give up their rights.

One thing which has happened today is, we have all given up caste tag after our names but are keeping caste as a private affair.

There is nothing wrong keeping caste as private affair.

All the best

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Narayan,
Unlike our ancestors who had a referee for controlling and guiding debates whenever they engaged in them(tharkam) to share knowledge and analyze issues, we do not have any such referees here.So whenever you or I reach our wits end or become exasperated,we tend to throw up our hand and cry foul. You have mentioned that we are reaching nowhere and so you are going to let me have the last word, which "honour" I am not interested in. So I think I should stop debating this issue further. But before quiting i would like to refer to your "dramatic" (or is it melodramatic?) question:
"what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise." "what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise."
My friend there are many such questions. Like 1. What earthly purpose does religion serve that cannot be had otherwise?2.What earthly purpose does the entity called God serve that cannot be had otherwise? etc., To sincerely search for an answer to these questions in a debate we have to carry on the debate in a "language"(I am sure you will not say we both know and understand English) that both of us understand.As we have diametrically opposite POVs it is not possible to have a fruitful dialogue. Already you have come to the conclusion that we are going in rounds and rounds. So, My dear friend, you can still have your word as the final one. Cheers.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Dear NN, it is a simple and direct question, "what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise." Please give a straight and direct answer if you have one.

Thank you...

Nara,

As long it's earthly,it serves a purpose.Many of the poster's including me married from my own caste.So,why in heaven will i forfeit which has been handed over by my pithrus?Does not make any sense to me,but then my breed is a minority in any case.There is one caste,the caste of living beings,but it's human to differentiate amongst ourselves,otherwise we will cease to exist.Maybe in a utopian world such a society might exist,but then i live in earth,and behave like any other earthlingam,and practical that while in appearances human look alike,but in gunam,there is a triplicity of it,namely sathvikkam,rajasikkam,tamasikkam qualities.

Today,we tag them as intellectual --> brahmanas;Kshatria-->security providers;Vaishyas--->business people;Shudras--->they work in tandem with all the three previously mentioned as salaried class.

nachi naga.

 

[happyhindu]

Raju,

Happy Hindu
Please let me know what you think of the smrithis which overwhelmingly favour brahmins, flog shudras and totally demean the outcaste dalits.

This is a loaded question. May I know the reason for your leaving Kshatriyas and Vyshyas from the picture. Considering that It was Kshatriyas who wielded the swords and Vyshyas who controlled the economy, ignoring these people, nothing could have moved in the society even at that time just as it is now.

I agree with you wrt the roles of so-called kshatriyas and vaishyas.

Please let me know who or which communities do you think are the so-called 'vedic kshatriyas' or 'vedic vaishyas' in the present time.

And to take it further, please also let me know if 'shudras', 'kshatriyas', vaishyas' and 'brahmins' are mentioned as jatis in the vedas or were shudra occupations present in the vedic times.

And more importantly, please let me know if so-called kshatriyas or vaishyas wud produce literature favouring 'brahmins' (i mean priests here).


Moreover your question gives an impression that Shudras suffered like the panchamans ( dalits) which is not at all correct. It was only panchamans who were at the receiving end always, then as well as now.The Shudras were also tormentors of panchamans. Now please reframe your question and send. I will answer.

Dalits suffered the most alright, with even their look being considered polluting. But shudras were not treated well either.

Pouring tin / lac / lead into ears as a punishment for listening to vedas or asking shudras to eat remnants of dwijas does not sound like a harmonious society to me.

Wonder how this kind of caste (jati) system is considered an ideal varna system by some 'brahmins'. I suppose its all thanks to some mutts who propagate such ideologies...

Being a despised lot themselves, its hard to say if the shudras were capable of "tormenting" the outcastes.

Its an other matter that these laws were written long before the muslim raids. And i suspect the muslim invasions caused forced displacement / intermingling; and change in the roles played by several groups, including the occupations of so-called shudras or vaishyas (depending on which smrithi you follow, to categorize a particular occupation as that belonging to vaishyas, shudras or kshatriyas).

So today you have people who assume that they are a so-called high caste. In rural areas, they think they can remain high caste by supressing so-called low-castes. And methinks it wud take education and awareness to bring them out of that mold.

However, that does not absolve the role of those who wish to perpetuate the dharmashastras or the basis of spiritual segrgation and discrimination.

Btw, one does not need to be a 'brahmin' at all --- they just need to claim, portray or sanskritize themselves into 'brahmins' (like the chitpavans) to behave like those peshwas who poured things into the mouth or ears of so-called lower castes.

Who do you think produced such literature?

No one knows for sure. Any law written down by a small microscopic fringe group(less than 2% of the total population) will not survive for long (for thousands of years!!) unless it was accepted, owned and implemented by the majority of the society. The majority will accept and zealously guard the law and implement it meticulously only if its vested interests are well taken care of by these laws. In such a situation the law can be considered to be authored by the society and not the fringe microscopic group. The Indian constitution was drafted by the constituent assembly consisting of a few eminent lawyers and others but it is owned by the Indian society because it was accepted by the parliament and is zealously guarded by the elected Government.

Obviously, those who benefitted from such literature wud have produced it.

Please let me know on what basis do you think the population of brahmins was just 2% in the past? (btw, its even doubtful if the present day brahmins are the same folk as priests of the vedic times).

Lets leave the reactionary constitution framed to counter casteism out of the pic. Its just abt 60 years old. Am talking of pre-independence times.


And who in the present day holds on to scriptural or "spiritual" basis for birth-based segregative caste discrimination ?

Every one who practices casteism.

Obfuscation ofcourse. Sorry but nobody else except some so-called 'brahmins' uphold any "spiritual" basis for caste segregation or discrimination in the present day.


This is just to know -
do let me know if you think that seeking inclusiveness in vedic education amounts to being periyarists?

I do not think so. If you are seeking inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness alone or to just prove a point unrelated to seeking knowledge then I would say your cloak is thin and your colours are obvious.

Please explain this more clearly.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri RVR,

Is there a single acceptable `Guru' for the entire Hindu religion? To my knowledge, it is a firm `No'

Everyone who wishes to be considered or is considered a guru needs to take responsibility for the teachings he propagates...

Then who can give direction to the Hindus to abolish the caste system.

Mutts and everyone who instructs people to follow dharmashastras need to take responsibility for what they propagate.

Hindu religion is a very loose religion with multiple philosophies, multiple practices, multiple language etc.

caste has emerged out of these multiple practices along with few more parameters like food habits, nature of work etc.

Various permutations and combinations have worked in evolving a caste system. Each and every combination of these variable has resulted in a new caste.

Castes of the past are today the tribal communities, and present day castes evolved from the the mixing of various tribes, as per genetic studies. And as you rightly observe, present day castes are new castes. Who imagines that the world has remained the same from 1BC to 2010 AD? So why try to propagate dharmashastras without taking this into consideration?

Only economic propsperity of all communities and migration to cities will remove caste based discrimination. In cities, no body knows what is the caste of his neighbour - he cannot ask him also openly for fear.

Sorry, ONLY economic prosperity will not work. As explained earlier, money does not remove ideology. It can and does FUND counter ideologies.

Both, economic properity AS WELL AS removal of scriptural and religious discrimination is needed.

Caste based discrimination in education and employment has further complicated the whole system. Those castes which are benefiting from the system will not give up their rights.

One thing which has happened today is, we have all given up caste tag after our names but are keeping caste as a private affair.

There is nothing wrong keeping caste as private affair.

All the best

Please ask 'brahmins' to give up 31% reservation rights in vedic schools. Then please comment on 69% caste discrimination elsewhere.

 

[pvraman]

Back to the topic question,

I find that, considerable increase in iyyapan baktars and temple goers year after year. so, even with caste system, buddists, islamists, europeans could not damage hinduism. Considering no other country survived from being converted to religion x or Y, hinduism still survives. In this context castism is not weak for hinduism. Without caste system, india would have not had any temple remained (like Indo). .

Unlike other Baadushas, Akbar has a special place in History, because he respected hindus, buddhists, jains, even christians. Who are Birbal and Thansen? This king ruled a vast area upto Godhavari. Do we know any news about pancma or chandalas during his rule?.

We are trying to abolish castism, Akbar tried abolish all the religion, why hindus readily shed their religion and jump into it. Why they rejected it?. Atleast 50% (shudras and pancmas) could have joined.
This was in 15th Century. I just wanted to know how the oppression and how deep down in the history as proof.


Cheers

 

[Nara]

.... Already you have come to the conclusion that we are going in rounds and rounds. So, My dear friend, you can still have your word as the final one.

No dear Raju, you have misunderstood me. You injected a lot of stuff unrelated to the question at hand and demanded that I address them. We can do that for sure, but only after resolving the main question -- on that question we seem to be going in circles. If you give me anything that is not unrelated to the question I will gladly continue the discussion.

... My friend there are many such questions.

Yes, all these are interesting questions and can be debated. However, let us start with this one question. I believe we do have a common cultural understanding of varna/caste that it is not outside the realm of fruitful exchange between us.

I also observe that this question has elicited a lot of responses that can only be considered as side-stepping the issue. If anyone can give a direct answer to the question I will take them on. If the only answers are like, (i) others do also, or, (ii) it is impossible to get rid of caste, they only go to show there is absolutely no earthly good that cannot be had but for varna/caste system. Admit it, then we can move on to discuss all these other question people are raising.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear All,

Is there any culture without caste or race divisions living more happily than us in any country (Model should be like our country with multi language & culture and avial of many religions), so that we can take it as a model to strengthen our discussions for a country free of caste divisions .

Regards

?? dunno what you are conveying but can't help smiling...

Are you saying we are living happily ? Or we WERE living happily in the past? With caste or without caste?

Dear Sir,

Why cant be the varna system/ caste system superior invention, when there was slavery and people were over powered by the power alone. (at times, when the people were barbarians).

I feel that Varna system is the best (I may change if I am convinced that it is not) for those barbaric times, to tame the people who created lot of troubles to the settled tribes. How much barbarians are we now compared to the ancient barbarians? when will we match them?


Did the untouchables protest in ancient days for being untouchables (as old as in 18th century). In 4th Century, the chinese traveller describes chandalas as the one who were untouchables who before entering the market produce unique sounds so that nobody messes with them. Here, they can enter the market and city but at the time, others simply avoided confronting with them (out of fear!!! may be).. So, who were they? and why they were made untouchables in the first place? (on what basis?) in those times.

Regards

PVR, you really disappoint in repeating the same questions when answers have already been provided. Already replied to Renu how people were made into untouchables.

I do not know what kind of a man wud think that an outcaste was glad to be an untouchables in the past.

Well you anyways have a fixed basis that caste system is great. So guys like you can go ahead and keep the system. And people like me can go ahead and create awareness amongst everyone who practices it.

Lets see in which path the future generations go...

Back to the topic question,

I find that, considerable increase in iyyapan baktars and temple goers year after year. so, even with caste system, buddists, islamists, europeans could not damage hinduism. Considering no other country survived from being converted to religion x or Y, hinduism still survives. In this context castism is not weak for hinduism. Without caste system, india would have not had any temple remained (like Indo). .

Unlike other Baadushas, Akbar has a special place in History, because he respected hindus, buddhists, jains, even christians. Who are Birbal and Thansen? This king ruled a vast area upto Godhavari. Do we know any news about pancma or chandalas during his rule?.

We are trying to abolish castism, Akbar tried abolish all the religion, why hindus readily shed their religion and jump into it. Why they rejected it?. Atleast 50% (shudras and pancmas) could have joined.
This was in 15th Century. I just wanted to know how the oppression and how deep down in the history as proof.


Cheers

Leaving the 'brahmins' with IPR rights in caste-based spiritualism aside,..its obvious that hindusim is alive because of
a) the individuals who practice it, and
b) because of various vedanta, yoga and monastic sampradayams in the past (and present); and because of present day institutions like chinmaya mission, arya samaj, brahmo samaj, brahmakumaris, sahaj marg, etc.
All of these traditions and institutions do not endorse caste system in its present form. So obviously hinduism (and its mass appeal) has survived in spite of the caste system practiced by some mutts and some 'brahmins'. Only some 'brahmins' keep claiming today to be the architects or keepers of hindusim, and that caste system is good for hindusim.

 

[RVR]

Shri RVR,



Everyone who wishes to be considered or is considered a guru needs to take responsibility for the teachings he propagates...

When there is no unified commond, who will take the lead. Nobody will try to put the first step

Mutts and everyone who instructs people to follow dharmashastras need to take responsibility for what they propagate.

Let each group follow there own beliefs. Why do you bother? Ignore them. Shed the inferiority complex and move forward.


Castes of the past are today the tribal communities, and present day castes evolved from the the mixing of various tribes, as per genetic studies. And as you rightly observe, present day castes are new castes. Who imagines that the world has remained the same from 1BC to 2010 AD? So why try to propagate dharmashastras without taking this into consideration?

World has several religions, several races, several languages. India has one sixth of the world population and let it has its own divisions. Let new things also emerge. As long as each group doesn't interfere in the other group, why do you bother? Let each group manage its affair effectively and efficiently.

After accepting Indian Constitution no body can talk of any ideology which is violating the constitution. If any body preaches anything publicly which is violating the constitution, the law has to take its own course. There are enough avenues to implement the law. Those who are affected can move the appropriate authorities for effective implementation.

At the same time, Indian Constitution gives full liberty to practice their faith within the framework of the constitution. If any authority exceeds its limits, it can be sued in a court of law.

There are enough checks and balances to protect both sides.



Sorry, ONLY economic prosperity will not work. As explained earlier, money does not remove ideology. It can and does FUND counter ideologies.

Both, economic properity AS WELL AS removal of scriptural and religious discrimination is needed.

Ignore the ideology which you don't accept. No body is bound by other person's ideology. Saint Narayana guru rejected the ideology of upper caste hindus in kerala and establsihed his own ideology. No body was able to prevent him.

Again education and economic prosperity has removed lot of discrimination. Today agricultural labour is not available because of NRGES scheme implemented by the Government. If they further enhance the scheme, even factory labour will not be available for low wages.

Economic prosperity of the so called low castes is already putting the higher castes into trouble. No body can ignore the economic aspect for Human Development.


Please ask 'brahmins' to give up 31% reservation rights in vedic schools. Then please comment on 69% caste discrimination elsewhere.

Please read my statement carefully. I never said reservation in formal education and employment has to be abolished. I just said that it is dividing people further which cannot be reversed because benefiting groups will not give up easily.

There is a supreme court judgement that as long as Government is not funding any educational institution, they cannot enforce reservation. If any vedic school is funded by government, then they can enforce reservation.


All the best

 

[nachi naga]

re

" If answers like others do also, or, it is impossible to get rid of caste, only go to show there is absolutely no earthly good that cannot be had but for varna/caste system. Admit it, then we can move on to discuss all these other question people are raising."Cheers!

Nara,

It's akin to asking why a Indian should call himself an Indian?Naturally a non-Indian will definitely not understand the sentiments of an Indian or the ethos of an Indian in India or NRI.

Is it possible for Indian to understand the race relationship existing in North American region? Or the difference between a shia or sunni or wahhabbi or a catholic or protestant or methodist etc?This kind of differentiation amongst people are numerous,we always will divide amongst us to survive to a better life.Every species thrives on preying on some other species,it's the law of nature worldover.

To promote that one is better than the other,is a fallacy.Every inch of the world where people exist,discrimination exists,be it at work place,home,or elsewhere in politics.

To give ultimatum to Brahmin's only is a retarded concept,wherein Brahmin's constitute less than 3% in Indian communities.By dwelling on past,we ruin a pleasant present and thereby the future in a mixed way.There are no absolute gurantees in any system or religion or politics.Life is a mixed bag,one needs to get enlightened at an individual level first,then one can pontificate of systems of present,past.IMO.

nachi naga.

 

[happyhindu]

Please read my statement carefully. I never said reservation in formal education and employment has to be abolished. I just said that it is dividing people further which cannot be reversed because benefiting groups will not give up easily.

There is a supreme court judgement that as long as Government is not funding any educational institution, they cannot enforce reservation. If any vedic school is funded by government, then they can enforce reservation.


All the best

The supreme court judgement on educational institutions apply to universities, colleges that provide secular education - or rather education in arts, science, engineering, law, etc - not to religious schools. There is no law govering religious schools as yet.

If the government has strict laws to prevent caste discrimination, then it cannot ignore religious schools and institutions that propagate birth-based caste discrimination -- the idea may sound a bit futuristic now perhaps, but no one knows how the wind will blow in future as awareness increases...