Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[suraju06]

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Cheers!//

Dear Mr. Na.Raghavan,

What do you want to convey by your this comment?

Looking at the context, the word community within quotes is ominous. What is the adjective u intended for the word and have left out to the understanding of the reader?
As I understand the meaning of your comment appears to be this: The Tamil Brahmin community never instigates atrocities against dalits directly. They instigate other castes including the converted Christians to do that so that in the process they never come directly into the open for taking criticism. How far removed can one be from truth? Now I am giving below hard facts for you not to just read but to assimilate and contemplate on.
1. Have you heard of Uththapuram wall? It was a wall built by the higher caste Hindus of a small village by name Uththapuram in Tamilnadu such that the dalits will not have any opportunity to see them and pollute them. Not a single Brahmin family lives in Uthapuram. This happened not in the distant past. This is a live issue even today in Tamilnadu.
2. Have you heard about Kilvenmony? It is the name of a village in Tanjore District of Tamilnadu where the poor dalit agricultural labourers rose in a revolt against the atrocities of the landowning higher castes.. The name was splashed in the newspapers because of the many labourers killed there in the uprising and the burning and raping that went with it. All victims were dalits. Not a single Brahmin was involved in the atrocities.
3. Have you heard of the name Vachathi? It is a small hamlet in the hills of Tamilnadu’s Western Ghats. It was a village where only the tribal people lived. In the name of eliminating the brigand Veerappan the entire village was subjected to unspeakable atrocities. The women raped, houses destroyed, men taken into custody etc., not a single Brahmin was involved among the numerous bureaucrats and policemen who were the culprits. And what is worse justice was denied for many years and a Brahmin owned news paper had to conduct a campaign to get justice. The court in its final verdict passed stinging strictures against the police and the Government.
4. I am not writing about the khairlanjis of the North India (there are many) here because we are discussing Tamil Brahmins only.

So my dear friend, where does your comment about Brahmins not dirtying their hands stand? You have been repeatedly mentioning that truth is bitter. The truth as you understand and the truth as it is understood by others appear to be different. There is no harm in your living in your own ivory tower, but throwing a dart on and off at others is some thing different.

If you wanted proof it is all there. Now you have to accept that Brahmins have nothing to do with the caste based atrocities as they happen in India. Castes were an altogether different thing brought in to serve an altogether different purpose. But it was converted into a tool to subjugate others, rule over them, and derive the benefits there from by every caste other than the Brahmins. Brahmins did not have any hand in this cunning scheme of things and could neither do anything about it. They just played along. And when awareness came others quickly pointed the accusing fingers at Brahmins and made them the villain of the piece or the whipping boy so that they can continue with their power games. This is the ‘truth’ which you repeatedly quote but refuse to see. All your revolutionary fervor is completely misplaced. You are barking up the wrong tree. Go and preach to the Periyarists if u can. You may get sympathetic ears or a kalaimamani award.
Cheers. No hard feeling please. Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

What about reservation in employment, for the economically weaker sections amongst the FCs?

The caste based reservation system continued indefinitely and which will be continued ad infinitim, should be stopped immdtly. If at all, it can be on economic criteria, for a limited period, with no scope for any extension at all. Communities as a whole should be uplifted and not on the criteria of Rly compt first occoupied, continues to be held..

Central Government & its undertakings continues to attract all communities including FCs.

Upto plus two level, there is no discrimination but subsequent to that all problems starts. It is high time such discrimination is eliminated first.

I do not think it is possible to keep epithets like 'forward' caste, 'backward' caste, 'scheduled' caste - and then claim to be considering all humans as equals.

I fully agree with Sri Ramanathan ji that reservations must be based only on the economic condition of the student. There should be no room for caste in that.

But there are only 3 kinds of people interested in keeping caste"

a) Politicians (for political value)
b) Some brahmins (for image value and/or spiritual value)
c) Dalits, BCs, OBCs, MBCs (for economic value, including 'rich' abusers of the system)

As long as birth-based discrimination continues for image value and/or spiritual value, till then politicans will continue to use caste as a platform.

And the ones seeking reservations for so-called economic value will also continue to do so, will continue to abuse the caste system, and not let the downtrodden get a foothold in any betterment schemes.

To usher in a truly democratic secular society, all forms of reservations, must go.

First, birth-based discrimination by hindu religious institutions must go. And the government must soon follow it up with the removal of caste-based discrimination in education and employment opportunities.

As soon as a family reaches a certain cap of annual income, extending reservations benefits to them must be stopped.

Let there be a truly egalitarian democratic society based on equality and equal opportunities for all in anything that an individual seeks.

As long as casteists who want to keep caste (in its present form) exist, only God can save India.

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Dear Sir, I am not the first to use some sarcasm in this forum. It has been used against me, and I don't mind it one bit.

I have never concealed my antecedents in anyway. So far, I have engaged in several debates and let those who crossed words with me say whether I have been disrespectful to any of them. What I say may be unpalatable, but that is the nature of truth, sometimes.

If you feel I am in the wrong in any of what I have said in this forum please jump in and challenge me. The kind of ad hominem you have doled out is not constructive. Do you really don't have anything more serious than this?

" I just think if you would have got the courage to say this before your parents and family elders before you attained the age of 15."​

I am not here to live up to anyone's expectations. Truth often is offensive to the establishment. You can try and shut me up. But that will not alter the truth.

Thanks....

p.s. Whatever made you feel I am "staunch vaishnavite", and why should that make any difference?

Could not help intervening here. I don't have a problem with your arguments. You argue well. I don't take them seriously just like you wouldn't take mine. Whatever you say is not going to affect the people having an opposing view and vice-versa. But you cannot call what you say is the truth because a person who commits the act (or part of the act) does not pronounce the judgment. That is for the judge a neutral person to decide. Truth is a very noble word not to be dragged into discussions like this. All we are doing is having a good time arguing our viewpoints and that is the only truth. My point of view is not proved to you and yours to me and that is the only truth. So when you denounce religion, denounce Hinduism, denounce god, denounce rituals, all is fine with me. I accept that as your position and that is where you come from. But don't call your denouncements as "Truth" unless you want to amuse me.

Thanks,

 

[Nara]

..... But don't call your denouncements as "Truth" unless you want to amuse me.

Dear friend, I know I cannot convince you, so why not amuse you

I agree Anand, nobody has a monopoly on truth. At the same time, not often does truth lie exactly in the middle of what two people are saying.

One measure of truth is it hurts. That is what I said, I did not directly say what I am saying is always the truth and everyone else is just plain wrong. In as much as Shri Pannvalan wanted to shut me up, whatever it was I was saying that made him feel that way, perhaps, was close to the truth.

Hope this explanation is satisfactory....

 

[nachi naga]

re

Caste is just a 'tag' or tool for survival.Only when merit takes precedence in any society,they remain unbeatable whether be it spiritually,materially.In this Hinduism as a religion is much evolved in its perception and thought process thereby creating harmony and peace.

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

Dear Mr. Na.Raghavan,

Dear Raju, I remember you were very particular about getting addressed as Raju and not suraju06. Now you are addressing me as Na.Raghavan, why? My moniker is "Nara", short for Narayanan. It is alright though, you can call me anything you want. I tell my American friends who are not able to say my name to call me "Billy Bob" .

What do you want to convey by your this comment?

The answer is quite simple, if only you followed the sequence of posts. I read this article in Hindu that showed extreme caste feelings and I posted it here without any comment. The first response I got was that TB's are not involved. Please read my comment in this context.

.... The Tamil Brahmin community never instigates atrocities against dalits directly. They instigate other castes

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is just as long as the institutionalized Brahminism provides intellectual justification for this caste system they have some responsibility to bear.

The examples you have provided go to show these are not isolated instances of gross violations, not just of human dignity but the very life of some people, because of their caste. Yet, arguments are put forth on the benign nature of this varna/caste system as you have yourself done.

The uncouth casteist in the village engage in crude acts of violence in the name of caste. The sophisticated, well-read, and scholarly casteist, who should know better, also gives expression to the caste feelings of superiority in a myriad of ways that are equally violent, if not more, albeit not physical.

This is why even though no TB was directly involved, must bear some responsibility.

... All your revolutionary fervor is completely misplaced. You are barking up the wrong tree. Go and preach to the Periyarists if u can. You may get sympathetic ears or a kalaimamani award.

My dear Raju, if I was interested in getting kudos I wouldn't be posting here, don't you think?

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir,

The uncouth casteist in the village engage in crude acts of violence in the name of caste. The sophisticated, well-read, and scholarly casteist, who should know better, also gives expression to the caste feelings of superiority in a myriad of ways that are equally violent, if not more, albeit not physical.

We can easily assign this indian caste system to the Hinduism, Race has no such responsibility, not withstanding to the news that a christian group (I say christian group, because a dalit if converted has the motive to shrug his caste order, but a thevar getting converted to Christianity shall be out of ideology) with a dalit person (whom the christian mission is dying to take into their religion), i found a news below from the link you have posted.

The Hindu : News / International : Sikh youth assaulted in US, says advocacy group

Its a very common news.IMHO, In Indian setup, the caste system, if not there would have easily taken over by Race considering the geo political cultural setup.

Regards

 

[Nara]

.... i found a news below from the link you have posted.

The Hindu : News / International : Sikh youth assaulted in US, says advocacy group

Its a very common news.IMHO, In Indian setup, the caste system, if not there would have easily taken over by Race considering the geo political cultural setup.

Dear Shri PVR, Greetings!

Then we should be standing together against racism.

In the U.S., with the exception of neo-Nazis and white supremacists, you won't find anyone openly defending racism. People get into trouble even for using fairly innocuous racial stereotypes, Senator Reid is the most recent example who issued an apology.

Responsibility for caste is not assigned to the Hindu religion, Hindu religion has been advocating it, for ever.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Dear Shri Pannvalan, Greetings!

Responsibility for caste is not assigned to the Hindu religion, Hindu religion has been advocating it, for ever.

Cheers!

You sure know the art of winding people up.

 

[kunjuppu]

amazing site. amazing organization.

Navya Shastra

an open apology to the dalits !! awesome. it heartens me that there are atleast a few in the hindu faith, with head on their shoulders, and a conscience.

God Bless.

 

[RVR]

I earnestly feel that apologies are not going to lift the daliths out of their present positions.

Our community members of our village origin assembled at our village about three weeks back. Out of 65 TB families which lived in the village, there are hardly five families staying back in the village now. Our community members took the unanimous decision of involving all other community members in the village development programs. We then called other community members to convey our decisions. Immediate reaction from non-dalith members of NB community was not to involve daliths in the program and it almost came to a stand still where if we involve daliths, other NB community will boycott our programs. We have not given up hopes and still would like to try and involve all the communities in our programs. We are going to concentrate on Education, Career development along with development of temples worshiped by all communities. We have four temples in our village out of which two temples have NB community priests and we are committing our donations to all the four temples. But still achieving unity among all the communities is a big problem even today.

Need of the hour is to develop local leaders from all communities who can keep development as the agenda. We are going to visit again every six months and make it clear that unless they are united, we are not going to help them in a big way.

Once education and career development takes place, there will be more sense of involvement.

Some fringe organisations within Hindu religion still have some unique agendas which will not get implemented in the normal course. Once all round development takes place, definitely the differences will get reduced to a great extent. At that time, these agenda will get implemented without anybody's notice.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Hello everyone,

This is more than two years old, but may interest some of you.

HindustanTimes-Print

Mr. Ravikumar and his party are now part of the DMK alliance.

Quite obliquely related to the above is a news report I heard today about men marrying up in economic scale in the U.S.

Marrying up - UPI.com

I am sure this is starting to happen in India, a precursor to the annihilation of caste Ravikumar was talking about.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Narayanan,

Now that you have mentioned your name is Narayanan I will, henceforth use that name to address you. Thank you.

//No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is just as long as the institutionalized Brahminism provides intellectual justification for this caste system they have some responsibility to bear//

My first objection is to the terms “Institutionalized Brahminism” and “intellectual justification”. There is no institutionalized brahminism involved in the atrocities which I have listed. If any thing it was Casteism which is the driving force. Again I repeat Brahmins have nothing to do with this dirty, virulent casteism. If by waving a magic wand you can convert all Brahmins into donkeys even then this casteism will continue because the origin and reasons for its continuance are very different from what you seem to understand.
There are many undercurrents. Vested interests of every kind--economic power flowing from the control of factors of production, muscle power which is derived from numerical advantage, electoral politics, reluctance to loose the existing advantages which are derived from numerical majority, a shared perception that clanic unity is advantageous to compete with other clans, a shared misperception about cultural superiority etc are some of these--play a role in sustaining the casteism in today’s India. There are a number of politicians in Tamilnadu who have a single point agenda-Brahmins are the culprit and they must be brought to their heels to end casteism-which is their sole investment in politics to reap a rich harvest of votes and pelf from power. From Periyar to today’s paid street corner political orator, all of them have this single point to offer as solution to all the evils of the casteism. If u r in close touch with the developments in Tamilnadu you cannot miss the point. So, ‘ institutionalized brahminism’ is an exotic, high sounding terminological inexactitude, if I may say so.

Next is the intellectual justification u r talking about. Justification of what? Killings? Atrocities? Discrimination? Come on dear friend. I am sure u r not attributing any of these to Brahmins. Then what are we arguing about? Caste system is not the culprit. It is those who quickly saw an opportunity to convert it into an instrument of politics and power are the culprits. For centuries every Kshatriya, every Vaishya and indeed every Shudra found it convenient and imperative to treat the panchaman as just a slave to do hard labour in the farms and other dirty works in the villages. The history is all there for you to see. How can u close your eyes to these truths? Brahmins committed the mistake of going with the current. They did not have any options. Otherwise it would have been hara-kiri for them.


//The uncouth casteist in the village engages in crude acts of violence in the name of caste. The sophisticated, well-read, and scholarly casteist, who should know better, also gives expression to the caste feelings of superiority in a myriad of ways that are equally violent, if not more, albeit not physical// You said it correctly. The casteist is the key word here not Brahmin. I am happy that u have understood the difference.

//My dear Raju, if I was interested in getting kudos I wouldn't be posting here, don't you think?//

I was only alluding to the resourcefulness of the ruling castes of Tamilnadu and not to your actually getting an award. I am sorry I could not get it across to you.



//Responsibility for caste is not assigned to the Hindu religion, Hindu religion has been advocating it, for ever//

Responsibility need not be assigned.
Hindu religion has not been advocating castes.
Rather Hindu religion has castes as an integral part of it. There is nothing wrong with castes. The religion has nothing to do with the discriminations and atrocities. Well informed Brahmins do not have any guilt in their mind about the castes though they are hit with hatred and threats. If anything, it is the politically powerful castes that have to change and stop using caste as an instrument to discriminate, dominate, exploit and prevail. But today that is too much to ask for. Arm chair intellectuals and enthusiasts may continue to harangue against the Brahmins and go to bed in the night to sleep well with the satisfaction that they have contributed their ‘two cents’ for a noble cause. Politicians will continue to form coalitions based on strength of castes in constituencies and win elections. We will get many more Periyar statues in many more road junctions for crows to perch on and to use them as their loo. And finally we, here, will continue to fill bits and bites with data until the logic gates put up the board houseful. How hopeless the situation is!!!

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

Dear Raju,

.....Rather Hindu religion has castes as an integral part of it. There is nothing wrong with castes. The religion has nothing to do with the discriminations and atrocities. Well informed Brahmins do not have any guilt in their mind about the castes though they are hit with hatred and threats.

I am sure you have heard of Ralph Nader. Many years ago he led a crusade against GM and other motor companies and made them put safety seat belts in cars. This one action alone has saved many thousands of lives. The auto companies initially argued tooth and nail -- they said there is nothing wrong with their cars, it is the rash drivers who are to be blamed for all the deaths.

To be fair to the automakers, the products they designed and marketed at that time had, and still have, a legitimate purpose. Further, the companies finally relented and did the right thing.

In the case of Brahmins and caste neither is true, they have not owned up to the wrongs, and have done nothing about it. What is particularly galling is ,even after witnessing the horrific atrocities that are routinely perpetrated in the name of caste, the followers of Brahminism are never prepared to jettison this odious system. What more reason is necessary for holding them also responsible for the atrocity as those who actually, allegedly, made the poor fellow eat crap, literally?

The reason Brahmins and their orthodox institutions are blamed and made to answer for the atrocities others commit in the name of caste is because it is they who designed this fiendish system, used it to live of the labor of others, kept a large section of the toiling class to get anywhere near even their sight, and worst of all, continue to defend it with statements like "There is nothing wrong with castes."

At least answer this one question my friend, what earthly purpose does caste serve that cannot be had otherwise.

Arm chair intellectuals and enthusiasts may continue to harangue against the Brahmins and go to bed in the night to sleep well with the satisfaction that they have contributed their ‘two cents’ for a noble cause.

Dear Raju, how well arm chair intellectuals and enthusiasts sleep has nothing to do with whether or not Brahmins must bear responsibility for gross atrocities. Why do you go off in such tangents? You have done this as a routine. I request you to stick to the issues.

Further, from the tone and tenor of your post it seems you harbor a lot of frustration. Relax my friend, Tamil Nadu is not a hopeless place. In spite of the DMK and ADMK leaders and politicians Tamil Nadu has seen tremendous growth. The standard of living all around is many times better than even just a generation ago. Let us have fun discussing these topics, no need for despondency.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Hello everyone,

This is more than two years old, but may interest some of you.

HindustanTimes-Print

Mr. Ravikumar and his party are now part of the DMK alliance.

Quite obliquely related to the above is a news report I heard today about men marrying up in economic scale in the U.S.

Marrying up - UPI.com

I am sure this is starting to happen in India, a precursor to the annihilation of caste Ravikumar was talking about.

Cheers!

I think Brahmins, Daliths, Muslims and Christians have to team up politically to create a vote bank in Tamilnadu. According to the article in Hindustan times, it adds upto 32% which approximately equal to the individual strength of both the drarvidian party alliances.

Let them not aspire for power but keep it as a weapon to punish the caste based parties to start with. Except Congress & communists, all are directly or indirectly doing caste based politics. Bjp, Muslim league etc are playing religion based politics which are also to be avoided.

I wish selfless leaders from dalith and muslim communities emerge in the near future to change the political equations in Tamilnadu.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

I think Brahmins, Daliths, Muslims and Christians have to team up politically to create a vote bank in Tamilnadu. According to the article in Hindustan times, it adds upto 32% which approximately equal to the individual strength of both the drarvidian party alliances.

Let them not aspire for power but keep it as a weapon to punish the caste based parties to start with. Except Congress & communists, all are directly or indirectly doing caste based politics. Bjp, Muslim league etc are playing religion based politics which are also to be avoided.

I wish selfless leaders from dalith and muslim communities emerge in the near future to change the political equations in Tamilnadu.

All the best

As long as people (that is, some brahmin and dalits) keep the tags "brahmin" and "dalit" alive - with birth-based discrimination in practice - i doubts whether the point in bold can ever happen...

 

[Raghy]

As long as people (that is, some brahmin and dalits) keep the tags "brahmin" and "dalit" alive - with birth-based discrimination in practice - i doubts whether the point in bold can ever happen...

I sincerely can't visualise Christians and Muslims teaming with anything called 'Brahmins'. Sri.RVR's wish is, but naive.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

As long as people (that is, some brahmin and dalits) keep the tags "brahmin" and "dalit" alive - with birth-based discrimination in practice - i doubts whether the point in bold can ever happen...

The combination is already working fine at Uttar Pradesh. Brahmins are supporting a dalith leader Mayavathi. Why not the combination work at other places?

All the best

 

[venkatpasupathy]

Dear Shri RVR,

You are wrong. It is amusing to learn that Congress party is not doing caste based politics. This may be true of Communists in West Bengal. But both the parties are allies of Indian Muslim League, MIM and christians, especially in Kerala and in some of the North east states. I do not want to use this forum to discuss politics. But your statements prompted me to write this. In India all political parties without the exception of BJP follow assymetrical secularism. Venkat

 

[RVR]

Dear Shri RVR,

You are wrong. It is amusing to learn that Congress party is not doing caste based politics. This may be true of Communists in West Bengal. But both the parties are allies of Indian Muslim League, MIM and christians, especially in Kerala and in some of the North east states. I do not want to use this forum to discuss politics. But your statements prompted me to write this. In India all political parties without the exception of BJP follow assymetrical secularism. Venkat

You are correct congress aligning with Muslim League is not correct. We have to avoid both caste and religion in politics.

As you rightly said communists may be the only exception.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR,

In Tamil Nadu, communist party is against brahminism; they consider most private caste brahmin's nithya karma as 'brahminism' too. Communist party is unlikely to team with caste brahmins. In fact, in my experience, when ever I visited DK office, I was always treated with respect (respect was mutual); but, I had a bitter experience once in the communist office. I put it down as 'isolated incident'.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri.RVR,

In Tamil Nadu, communist party is against brahminism; they consider most private caste brahmin's nithya karma as 'brahminism' too. Communist party is unlikely to team with caste brahmins. In fact, in my experience, when ever I visited DK office, I was always treated with respect (respect was mutual); but, I had a bitter experience once in the communist office. I put it down as 'isolated incident'.

Cheers!

In my village lot of communists were there in the agraharam itself. Normally communists doesn't interfere in the personal affairs. Their struggle was more of a `class struggle' rather than caste struggle.

All the best

 

[pannvalan]

The grassroot level workers are the same everywhere. At the top, the leaders pretend to be gentle, decent and polite. But, in reality?

 

[suraju06]

Barking up the wrong tree.......

Dear Mr. Narayanan,

• In my previous post I have clearly given my objections to your calling the casteism as Brahminism and I have cogently presented reasons for my argument. I have mentioned the various undercurrents which are sustaining the casteism today. You have nothing to say on that.
• I have also mentioned the single point agenda of Peiyarists. Now from your postings here and your arguments in which you are repeatedly blaming the Brahmins alone for the casteism I get an impression that you are one of those periyarists for whom the only solution for casteist atrocities is to bring the Brahmins down on all their fours.
• I have mentioned about the ruling castes and their contribution to sustaining the castes till this day and you have simply ignored it as if it is not a thing to be mentioned or it does not exist. This some intellectual fairplay!! I repeat “for Kshaqtriyas, Vyshyas and Shudras the caste system was convenient as long as the economy was largely dependent on agriculture and manual labor. It is they who converted the castes into an instrument for oppression and exploitation. Not Brahmins. Brahmins, being of no consequence, just played along. With science and time when awareness increased and casteist exploitation became more and more inconvenient to defend these ruling castes needed a scape goat, a whipping boy, an idiot to point the accusing fingers at and that role was eminently conferred on Brahmins and we are there now.” I am repeating all these only to get your views on these specific points.
• My observation about armchair intellectuals has the weight of truth behind it. Please read it once again. I have many such enthusiasts here who wax eloquent on the deleterious effects of castes but secretly look for sons-in-law and daughters-in-law from the same caste and sub caste. My comment was about such intellectual hypocrites.
• I am not going at tangents. Every word I have posted is relevant to the context. Can you tell me where I have gone on a tangent leaving the subject in hand? And you are accusing now that I am doing this routinely. You never said this earlier. It looks like a convenient discovery to divert.
• My dear friend, while you have the freedom to draw your own conclusions about others’ level of frustration, please don’t turn judgmental. Yes, I said the situation is hopeless. But that was again in a context. Speaking about castes and the way politicians make use of it for winning elections, the way intellectuals exploit it to write masterly theses, the way netizens use it for satisfying their urge to debate etc I said the situation is hopeless. If it is not hopeless what else is it? I know Tamil Nadu is developing, India is developing and Human race is going through great times but it has nothing to do with the issue we discuss here – castes and casteism. You have a tendency to forget the context and look at statements in isolation and perhaps that is the reason for your wrong diagnosis of my “frustration”. At the end of the day I have my POV and you have your POV. So where is the scope for any despondency? Please don’t worry about it. I am conscious that I am writing in an alien language and the tone and tenor that comes out may not be what you would call correct. Cheers.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Most of us marry within our caste,barring a few minority of people.Caste is a identity marker or just a brand tag for a human in India.This will exist eternally in India as thats the fact of life,as long as Sun and Moon are there.Using caste for politically coveted posts,is the name of the game.Play the game and be a champion.

nachi naga.