Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[sangom]

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Further, there is no practical use for this kind of thinking except to prolong and legitimize the ideology of Brahminism which has the Varna system at its core. If we are to concede that there is such a thing as "true" Brahmin who is defined as one excelling in all the sublime characteristics a human can posses, then, by corollary, we are forced to accept the odious notion that there are people who are Shudras who are by nature slothful, ignorant, etc., who are not fit for anything else but servility. The slippery slope of this kind of thinking, if conditions are supportive, leads down to a version of Plato's Utopia or the Third Reich.

Is this not what BG says at least in respect of Vaisya and Sudra?

The Varna based classification cannot exist but on a birth-based system. This is clear from direct evidence dating back more than thousand years and indirect evidence going back all the way to the dawn of Vedic religion as in the story of Satyakama and Gautama.

A better alternative is one Thiruvalluvar espoused. A human excelling in sublime qualities is a சான்றோன், nothing remotely connected to anything that can be traced to parentage. Anyone can achieve this status regardless of birth status, what is required is good conduct.

There is only one kind of Brahmin, and he is a caste Brahmin. Trying to portray a Brahmin who is different from a caste Brahmin, whether intentional or not, only goes to prolong the pernicious Varna/Jati system.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy also subscribes to the varna notion. I feel our scriptures provide for what here is denoted by 'caste brahmin' as "brahma bandhu".

 

[kunjuppu]

...
As somebody suggested, we need to infuse DALIT BLOOD in to the brahmins to Sanctify our genes. We need a gene cocktail to avoid this tyranny..? I'm not talking about the races...In order to protect ourselves, we must ARMOUR ourselves with hybridization.. thank god..I'm happy to be where I am..i'm happy to see all that's happening around me.

.

partha,

is this in this forum that you saw the above statement? or where else? is it someone's personal opinion? was it published in a book? or a newspaper article?

i think it is good to quote with citations, and good credible ones at that. otherwise, it looks as if you made it up, which i am sure you did not.

thank you.

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Shri. Kunjuppu had said,


"The eroding of the rigidity of the caste system is good for tamil Hinduism, though the process is trifle too slow for my comfort. I think, it is good that priests have to qualify to become one, irrespective of caste, and only out of interests.

This does not mean that Brahmin as an identity to disappear, in my view. Just like chettiars or gounders, we too can have an identity based on food and certain customs. I think, we need to augment our numbers, particularly in tamil nadu, by bringing others into our fold primarily through marriage. An infusion of fresh blood will also remove the any residual genetic defects through several generations of marrying within the same blood.

I am hopeful, because I think barring the certain participants in this forum, the community at large, has embraced changes and rolled merrily along the path of reformation. From that aspect alone, I am proud to be termed as a tamil Brahmin."

I just reaffirmed his views..thanks.

JAI HIND.

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri. Kunjuppu had said,


"The eroding of the rigidity of the caste system is good for tamil Hinduism, though the process is trifle too slow for my comfort. I think, it is good that priests have to qualify to become one, irrespective of caste, and only out of interests.

This does not mean that Brahmin as an identity to disappear, in my view. Just like chettiars or gounders, we too can have an identity based on food and certain customs. I think, we need to augment our numbers, particularly in tamil nadu, by bringing others into our fold primarily through marriage. An infusion of fresh blood will also remove the any residual genetic defects through several generations of marrying within the same blood.

I am hopeful, because I think barring the certain participants in this forum, the community at large, has embraced changes and rolled merrily along the path of reformation. From that aspect alone, I am proud to be termed as a tamil Brahmin."

I just reaffirmed his views..thanks.

JAI HIND.

partha,

first of all, i think you are insulting Mother India with your signature, JAI HIND. your note has insulted, i think, 25% of the population of india's hindus.

let me quote you 'As somebody suggested, we need to infuse DALIT BLOOD in to the brahmins to Sanctify our genes. We need a gene cocktail to avoid this tyranny..? I'm not talking about the races...In order to protect ourselves, we must ARMOUR ourselves with hybridization.. thank god..I'm happy to be where I am..i'm happy to see all that's happening around me.'

i cannot believe that something so blatantly racist is being spoken with pride by someone whose own genes is no different from a dalits. why don't you go do a DNA test of yourself and compare it with any other hindu group and see how much similarity there is.

beyond your grandparents, none of us are even sure of our parentage. we do not have any written log of who married who and where. were our ancestral women the prize booty of conquerors, do we know? why are so many tambrams so fair skinned, and others dark as charcoal?

partha, you have distorted my words beyond recognition and reworded in your image. you are welcome to dislike ic marriages. nothing wrong with that. but i think it is wrong to word it the way you did.

you are abusive towards dalits and other hindu groups. furthermore it is an insult to India with your signature, for these groups have shed more blood defending the motherland than our own tambrams.

if not anything else, let us atleast show a drop of decency, for their ultimate sacrifices.

i am not so sure, how many of our youths, still will adhere to your brand of 'tamil brahminism' after reading posts like these. i would imagine such posts would simply drive them to saner pastures.

thank you.

 

[Raghy]

Shri. Kunjuppu had said,


"The eroding of the rigidity of the caste system is good for tamil Hinduism, though the process is trifle too slow for my comfort. I think, it is good that priests have to qualify to become one, irrespective of caste, and only out of interests.

This does not mean that Brahmin as an identity to disappear, in my view. Just like chettiars or gounders, we too can have an identity based on food and certain customs. I think, we need to augment our numbers, particularly in tamil nadu, by bringing others into our fold primarily through marriage. An infusion of fresh blood will also remove the any residual genetic defects through several generations of marrying within the same blood.

I am hopeful, because I think barring the certain participants in this forum, the community at large, has embraced changes and rolled merrily along the path of reformation. From that aspect alone, I am proud to be termed as a tamil Brahmin."

I just reaffirmed his views..thanks.

JAI HIND.

Sri.Parthasarathy Sir,

Greetings. Personally, I see a misunderstanding here. Caste brahmins, like any other caste have been marrying within relations; There is a talk about declining number of girls in the Tamizh Brahmin society; some of the Tamizh brahmin boys seem to be not able to get married, since they are not able to find suitable (or any) caste brahmin girls. Such ideas were discussied many a times in this forum in various threads. Sri.Kunjuppu made a comment in such circumstances. If it so happens, in his view, ICM marriages are not such a bad idea since, by accepting the newcomer within the caste brahmin fold, the community can increase in numbers; such infusion of fresh blood may also remove genetic defects which may have caused due to in-breeeding. Well, that's the way, I personally read Sri.Kunjuppu's words. I request you to consider the possibility where Sri.Kunjuppu was not very clear in his message. If I were you, I would have asked Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message before getting upset.

Still it is not too late. I request you to kindly ask Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message, please.

Cheers!

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Dear (Sh. Raghy) and Sh. Kunjuppu,
I have taken the words of sh.Kunjuppu very well...The problem is not here to do with gene degradation. The topic related to effects of varna system on hinduism i general. While discussing these topics, I see a dastardly dalit-sidelining by many of the members our "OWN" community, justifying all acts of vulgarism. hooliganism and goondaism that many of them have been involving to which I myself have been a witness umpteen number of times. If this has nothing to do with their genes ,what is has got to do with..? May I know why majority of them involve in such acts of shame while almost all my men behave decently...

TO Mr. Kunjuppu alone,


MOREOVER, REGARDING THE MIXING OF GENES IN YOUR ANCESTRY, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT. BUT YOU CANNOT SPEAK FOR MY ANCESTRY...DON'T SHOW YOUR RACIST BEHAVIOR ON ME...MY ANCESTRY IS CLEAN...I KNOW MY FOREFATHERS AND ANCESTOR VERY WELL...WE HAVE A VERY CLEARLY WRITTEN WELL KNOWN, "WELL PRESERVED" ANCESTRY RECORDS...SO STOP ABUSING BRAHMINS AS A WHOLE...GOVERNMENT MAY SUPPORT YOU, BUT GODS WILL PUNISH YOU...IF U DON'T BELIEVE IN GODS, THEN I CANNOT SPEAK WITH YOU ANYTHING.
YOU CANNOT SAY THE CONQUERERS RAPED ONLY THE BRAHMIN WOMEN OR THE BRAHMINS ANCESTRY WAS CORRUPTED WITH INVADERS GENES.

Why do you want brahmins alone to accept this intermixing of races...their genes being the most superior of all..can you deny this..??

Also, I see a "CLEAR CUT HIDDEN" RACIST MENTALITY IN YOU when you mentioned that the Dalits are "charcoal" coloured..What is your answer..Why do you take blacks to be inferior to fair-skinned people.

I need not undergo any DNA tests to prove that my genes are the same as others...particularly that of the Dalits.

What I mean by genes is not just the DNA..of course all are humans and your modern technology would show all of them to have the same kind of genes...What I mean by genes is the geneology here....our ancestry..why do you think the tambrams have always performed exceedingly well given the same opportunities...CAN YOU DENY THIS..??

..You have shown your racist mentality by pointing to the fair-skinnedness of the tambrahmins and attributing it to getting raped by invaders and conqurers...tamilbrahmins won't forgive you for your words, mr. kunjuppu...

I challenge others to compete with tambrahms without quotas and reservations and government support..then i will agree our genes are the same as theirs..otherwise i won't be convinced..I ALWAYS SEE THE TAMBRAHMS GENES TO BE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY FIGHT IT OUT IN THE OPEN MERIT..NOT ANY SUPPORT FROM THE GOVERNMENTS...

BUT INTERMIXING OF CASTES AND GENES IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO THE CASTE EVILS IN THE SOCIETY WHICH I STRONGLY CONDEMN...OPPRESSION IN ANY FORM IS NOT ACCEPTABLE...BUT MIXING AND IC MARRIAGES WON'T HELP..

ONLY SOLUTION IS AVOID ASKING FOR CASTES...CAN MR.KUNJUPPU ENSURE THAT THE GOVERNMENTS WON'T ASK FOR YOUR CASTES...THAT IS THE FIRST STEP..THEN THIS "STUPID" TALK OF "SUPERIOR" GENES WON'T COME..THEN ALL ARE EQUAL AND WE CAN MERRILY INTERMIX..OTHERWISE WE CAN'T..THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CLEANSE OURSELVES FOR THE PAST "MISDEEDS"...BUT CAN MR.KUNJUPPU GET THIS DONE...??

Once the caste labels are removed, then like you told, let everybody fight it out in the open, and then let us see who wins the race...then genes can't be given as the reason as there would be no identities..

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO END THE POST BY STRONGLY CONDEMNING MR.KUNJUPPU'S STATEMENTS ABOUT TAMBRAHMS GENES AND ANCESTRY...MAY BE HE DOES'NT KNOW HIS..HE CANNOT SPEAK FOR THE OTHER TAMBRAHMS...

RESPECTED MR.KUNJUPPU SIR,

YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT TAMILBRAHMINS COLOUR AND THEIR GENES GETTING CORRUPTED BY CONQUERORS AND INVADERS ARE HIGHLY OBJECTIONABLE..DONT BE CASTEIST AND RACIST. WE ARE FAIR-SKINNED FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. SOME OF US BLACK AS WELL...BUT DON'T INSULT US AND HUMILIATE US AS THE GOVERNMENTS WON'T QUESTION YOU IF YOU TARGET "US".WHAT A PITY...

AND FINALLY, DON'T SERMONIZE TO ME ABOUT PATRIOTISM AND INDIANISM..I'M A PROUD INDIAN TAMIL BRAHMIN AND NOT LIKE YOU...

MY FELLOW TAMIL BRAHMINS HAVE SHED BLOOD AND ARE STILL SACRIFICING FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS COUNTRY AND SOCIETY..DON'T NEGLECT THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS..GODS WILL PUNISH YOU.

JAI HIND.

 

[Nara]

TO Mr. Kunjuppu alone,

..GODS WILL PUNISH YOU.

Wow K, you got him really really angry. What can one do if you get shouted down like this? You have to admit K, he has stronger lungs than you do, and less shame.

Take care my dear friend, let your god bless you and your family, Jai Canada!

 

[kunjuppu]

Wow K, you got him really really angry. What can one do if you get shouted down like this? You have to admit K, he has stronger lungs than you do, and less shame.

Take care my dear friend, let your god bless you and your family, Jai Canada!

 

[Meerkat]

@ partha.

Even though I won't agree with some thing that you mentioned. but still u must visit my posts.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sri.Parthasarathy Sir,

Greetings. Personally, I see a misunderstanding here. Caste brahmins, like any other caste have been marrying within relations; There is a talk about declining number of girls in the Tamizh Brahmin society; some of the Tamizh brahmin boys seem to be not able to get married, since they are not able to find suitable (or any) caste brahmin girls. Such ideas were discussied many a times in this forum in various threads. Sri.Kunjuppu made a comment in such circumstances. If it so happens, in his view, ICM marriages are not such a bad idea since, by accepting the newcomer within the caste brahmin fold, the community can increase in numbers; such infusion of fresh blood may also remove genetic defects which may have caused due to in-breeeding. Well, that's the way, I personally read Sri.Kunjuppu's words. I request you to consider the possibility where Sri.Kunjuppu was not very clear in his message. If I were you, I would have asked Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message before getting upset.

Still it is not too late. I request you to kindly ask Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message, please.

Cheers!

thanks raghy. i think you got the essence of what i tried to convey..in so many posts in so many threads. no more. no less.

 

[Meerkat]

My posts means ongalanbudan's posts.
Its our duty to save the Little Red riding hood(humanity) from the jackal(dressed like aunty)

by RR

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

TO ALL,
We are ALL part of this UNIVERSE and HUMANITY,though we may have our own individual identity as a group as a' specific caste' or any other identification as a separate group.LET US ALL REMEMBER THAT OUR SPAN OF LIFE IN THIS UNIVERSE IS VERY LIMITED.
I have been enjoying reading different threads and reading different viewpoints. It is not necessary that everyone should have the same views.
OF late I find 'Bad Blood' in the form of personal attacks are being adopted by a few members.I request all forum members to have patience and tolerance.Only in a free atmosphere we will be able to discuss various issues and try to find some possible solutions.

 

[sravna]

Take care my dear friend, let your god bless you and your family, Jai Canada!

Dear Shri Nara Ji,

Your above comment wouldn't be welcome to those who do have a belief in God. Indulging in personal attacks is bad enough but attacking a fundamental belief of a whole group of people is worse.

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

To nara and shri.Kunjuppu,
I can see sh.kunjuppu smiling so hard over his "victory" as he was amply supported by his friend Naara who stooped to such low levels of morality as he is shouting from canada with his small lungs...

MR. NARA, MAINTAIN SOME DECENCY...I NEVER SPOKE ABT U OR UR FAMILY...SHRI.KUNJUPPU TALKED ABOUT THE ANCESTRY..SO I THOUGHT AS A TAMIL BRAHMIN I HAVE TO REPLY AS HE REPLIED TO MY POST...I NEVER ABUSED HIM BUT JUST CONDEMNING HIS STATEMENTS...AND I JUST GENERALLY MENTIONED THAT "GODS WOULD PUNISH HIM" IF HE COLLECTIVELY TRIES TO TARNISH AND DEFAME THE ENTIRE TAMIL BRAHMIN ANCESTRY..AS MAJORITY OF TAMIL BRAHMINS ARE GOD FEARING AND BELIEVERS IN DHARMASHASTRAS AND VEDAS. READ HIS POSTS AGAIN..IF YOU ARE NOT ASHAMED OF HIS POSTS THEN I CAN ONLY LAUGH AT YOU WITH MY "BIG LUNGS".

To Shri. Kunjuppu (Clarification): While you may not be aware of your ancestry beyond your grandfather, many of the brahmin families have written records of ancestry leading up to the times of their acharyas and even beyond. This cannot be denied. When I mean to talk about the genes, it mainly refers to this great lineage and tradition that we tamil brahmins are part of. I found a blatant attempt by you to swept all this under the carpet while you claimed that you and I don't know anything about our ancestors beyond our grandfathers' time. So, I request you to give some consideration to the thought process of others too. You cannot say the gene pool of all the tamil brahmins has got corrupted by the invaders or the conquerors. That is the reason I was not able to accept your views. Anyway, I cannot force my views about tamil brahmins' ancestry on you as you are entitled to your own beliefs. Anyway, Thanks and Regards.

I CANNOT TAKE ANY MORE REPLIES FROM MR.HONOURABLE.SHRI. NARA WHO HAS SUCH A "BIG HEART" AND "small lungs". so, I request Mr. Nara not to bother responding to my post.

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Dear ongalanbudan, Meerkat.
I could read the threads u referred. Thanks. Yes, the difficulty of IC marriages was clearly mentioned in those threads. When, the tambrahm community as a whole starts to accept the IC marriages ,these are the difficulties which most of us will have to live with, if that ever happens. There will be a lot of chance for incompatibility between the married partners as the customs are vastly different. Some may argue that there are a few who are happy with IC marriages among tambrahms. They can cite living examples of IC married couples. Most of these cases are not arranged marriages, but love marriages. There, question of compatibility doesn't arise between the married partners as they both must have understood all these things while they were in love and they would have also made up their minds for adjustments post-marriage. They would have taken decisions that they would stand by each other irrespective of their cultural, traditional and customary differences.

But for the community (tambrahm) as a whole to accept IC marriages , I don't see it happening in the near future (in the next 50 years at least). I don't see it happening even in other NB communities among the upper castes. I don't see again any need for such a thing to happen. This is just my personal opinion. I would personally be very happy to see the tamil brahmin community retaining their identity as long as ever. Thanks.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Parthasarathy sir,

Greetings. I request you to kindly ignore the messages that are not aggreable to you, please. It takes a lot of energy to post an angry message; is it really worth it? If you really like to post a very angry message, write your message and save it in you desktop; read your own message 24 hours later; if you still liked what you wrote, then submit it 48 hours later. Chances are, you might post a message much more refined, much more detailed in comparison to your original message.

In India, mainly in Tamil Nadu, when a person is very angry, people tend to pay attention so as to reduce his/her anger. But in the western world, an angry person is considered an imbalanced person and gets ridiculed. Although this forum is made up of mostly Tamil brahmins, due to exposures, we are looking at different culture mix here. Anger does not help at all.

Kindly don't think I am writing this in support of Sri.Kunjuppu; I am not. I am actually writing this in support of your sensitivities. If you get angry, your sensitivities are likely to get more offended. So, kindly seek a more peaceful approach, please.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Parthasarathy Sir,

Greetings. Personally, I see a misunderstanding here. Caste brahmins, like any other caste have been marrying within relations; There is a talk about declining number of girls in the Tamizh Brahmin society; some of the Tamizh brahmin boys seem to be not able to get married, since they are not able to find suitable (or any) caste brahmin girls. Such ideas were discussied many a times in this forum in various threads. Sri.Kunjuppu made a comment in such circumstances. If it so happens, in his view, ICM marriages are not such a bad idea since, by accepting the newcomer within the caste brahmin fold, the community can increase in numbers; such infusion of fresh blood may also remove genetic defects which may have caused due to in-breeeding. Well, that's the way, I personally read Sri.Kunjuppu's words. I request you to consider the possibility where Sri.Kunjuppu was not very clear in his message. If I were you, I would have asked Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message before getting upset.

Still it is not too late. I request you to kindly ask Sri.Kunjuppu to explain his message, please.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

I agree with you but feel that Shri Kunjuppu need (I feel should) have limited himself to clarifying his position instead of going into a sermon -cum- admonition mode. This gives an impression that Shri Kunjuppu is a more previleged member - something like a moderator. This position needs to be amended if people have to feel all members are equal in this forum.

Since Shri Kunjuppu is most likely to ask me where he showed admonition/sermon mode, I am reproducing the portions below (with my remarks in blue), for ready reference:

first of all, i think you are insulting Mother India with your signature, JAI HIND. your note has insulted, i think, 25% of the population of india's hindus.

This salutation "Jai Hind" I think is also used by the President of India and PM as well as other political dignitaries, when signing off their important messages to the nation; if my impression is wrong, members pl. correct me. Shri Kunjuppu may kindly note that "Hind" does not, ipso facto, mean "Hindu".
...
i cannot believe that something so blatantly racist is being spoken with pride by someone whose own genes is no different from a dalits. why don't you go do a DNA test of yourself and compare it with any other hindu group and see how much similarity there is.
...
beyond your grandparents, none of us are even sure of our parentage. we do not have any written log of who [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]married[/COLOR][/COLOR] who and where. were our ancestral women the prize booty of conquerors, do we know? why are so many tambrams so fair skinned, and others dark as charcoal?

{Emphasis mine}
See the confusion here; none of us are even sure of the parentage of Parthasarathy beyond Parthasarathy's grandparents!! How is Kunjuppu so sure? Is it not absolute abuse of Partha's forefathers? And is colour an incontrovertible indication of gene mixing, I don't know?
...
you are abusive towards dalits and other hindu groups. furthermore it is an insult to India with your signature, for these groups have shed more blood defending the motherland than our own tambrams.

And then Shri Kunjuppu states:
if not anything else, let us atleast show a drop of decency, for their ultimate sacrifices.

I feel Shri Kunjuppu should have set an example by showing more decency towards RP. Is it that K is keen only about Dalits alone being shown decency, not other members who may not have understood his message more than what the words apparently indicate?

I feel your (Raghy's) suggestion to keep the msgs for a day, etc., could be followed with beneficial results by Kunjuppu also in such circumstances so that such blunders and emotional outpourings could have been avoided.

 

[Nara]

.....Your above comment wouldn't be welcome to those who do have a belief in God. Indulging in personal attacks is bad enough but attacking a fundamental belief of a whole group of people is worse.

Slow down a little sravna, what personal attack are you talking about? Please explain.

My wish to Shri Kunjuppu was meant in all sincerity. I don't believe in god, but K does, he often says god bless. That is the background.

Now, if we can back out a little from the current situation, I don't agree that beliefs of people, fundamental or not, or, held by entire group or not, are automatically outside what can be attacked. Debates are ipso facto about attacking the beliefs of other people. But, in this case I was not attacking anybody's belief, it was just a sincere wish for my dear friend.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom Sir,

Greetings. I addressed my 'peace' message to Sri.Parthasarathy for few reasons - A person who becomes angry and who starts shouting becomes vulnerable. I sincerely wanted him not to get caught in that situation. Secondly, any of Sri.Kunjuppu's message (or anyone else's message for that matter) can be addressed well when addressed in a calm discussion. When a person shouts the message conveyed gets lost. For example, you have addressed Sri.Kunjuppu's message in a more calmer method and coherently.

Although I made a suggestion to Sri. Parthasarathy (waiting for 24 hours etc), it is general for everyone, including myself (at times I postphone replies for a few days too). Once I made a similar suggestion to Sri.Praveen too.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, hope you have heard of tiruppukazh and Arunagirinathar. This person was very licentious till he got divine grace. But in a large number of his tiruppukals he describes women in the most disgusting manner and advises people not to fall prey to their charms. (Luckily, women's liberation activists have not probably seen these thiruppukals yet!) To me this is putting the blame on those women as though they were to blame for his bad past. Now is he a good person or a bad one, according to you?

Sri. Sangom sir,

Greetings. Is it fair to test me like this? To start with I have only read only few of the 'Thiruppugazh' songs; that does not mean I could even remotely understand its meaning.....

Here is one andhaadhi... YouTube - ARUNAGIRI NATHAR

or this ...... YouTube - A SONG BY ARUNAGIRINATHAR

Was he a good a person or a bad person? what can I say? I do not know. I have not learned enough to pass a comment about Arunagirinathar.

But I can say this in general - if a person tries to pass the buck and blame others for all the not so good acts commited by him/her, lack of ownership indicates the absence of ending such deeds. So, such person would continue to perform not so noble acts while blaming others. Such person may not change.

I said

We also have a varna called 'brahmin';

I mentioned about varna in that post, only because it is there not because I am hung on that idea. For me personally there is only one varna, that is 'paint' (my house needs a coat badly).

Sri.Sangom Sir, it is quite lame to say that high caste NBs emulated caste brahmins in discriminating their lower castes. Sorry, I will not buy such arguments. We have ample opportunities to do socially unacceptable deeds; we may even be living in the midst of misfits; still we may not dream of doing such a deed. We don't simple emulate. Unless "we want to do it", we won't do it. So, personally I will hold every one respobnsible for all the social injustices, not just caste brahmins only.

...but banning of books is also envisaged

When I was talking about 'platform literature', I was talking about 'banned literature'; that's why there was so much secrecy involved in obtaining such a 'priced treasure'! (priced, literally.. when a copy of Kumudham magazine costed 35 paisas, this literature work costed 5 rupees per copy!).

but all along the argument seemed to be brahmins are innocent.

No body was innocent, Sir. Everyone was involved in social discriminations with a different dgree. For example, a 'vannaan' ( வண்ணான்) could only discriminate only few castes under them, while a Mudaliyar could discriminate more castes including the Vannaan caste! While reservations reflect such quantity of discriminations (while ST gets most benefit while MBC suppose to get a bit less benefits), excepting caste brahmins, even if they are dirt poor do not get any benefit while others, although practiced discriminations, without taking any ownership of their past actions, still get benefits. I was not saying anyone was innocent.

Tradition says Mahabali became unacceptable to the devas

Who says Devas were nice people? They were involved in all sorts of atrocities, womanising activities, condemned a group of girls for prostitution activities and was indulged in intoxicating booze and drugs. Any just and decent person could become unacceptable for them. But that is a different topic......

Cheers!

 

[R_PARTHASARATHY]

Sri. Parthasarathy sir,

Greetings. I request you to kindly ignore the messages that are not aggreable to you, please. It takes a lot of energy to post an angry message; is it really worth it? If you really like to post a very angry message, write your message and save it in you desktop; read your own message 24 hours later; if you still liked what you wrote, then submit it 48 hours later. Chances are, you might post a message much more refined, much more detailed in comparison to your original message.

In India, mainly in Tamil Nadu, when a person is very angry, people tend to pay attention so as to reduce his/her anger. But in the western world, an angry person is considered an imbalanced person and gets ridiculed. Although this forum is made up of mostly Tamil brahmins, due to exposures, we are looking at different culture mix here. Anger does not help at all.

Kindly don't think I am writing this in support of Sri.Kunjuppu; I am not. I am actually writing this in support of your sensitivities. If you get angry, your sensitivities are likely to get more offended. So, kindly seek a more peaceful approach, please.

Cheers!

Thanks Shri. Raghy. Your advice is well received. I was also thinking on similar lines and I appreciate your concern. Thanks again.

A special thanks to Shri.Sangom sir for looking at things from my perspective as well. Thank you sir.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,


Kargil War Heroes

the above url is an ode to lt col viswanathan who lost his life in kargil. the battle cry of our soldiers, when they charge against the enemy in the field, is ‘hindustan hi jai’ or ‘jai hind’ - and for many it is the last words uttered before falling prey to the enemy bullets.

viswanathan is one of our tambrams, and one of the handful of our community who laid down his life for our motherland. to me when someone says ‘jai hind’, i feel, there should be a drop of sanctity and reverence. To utter those words at the end an hatred filled vitriol against the rest of non Brahmin India, to me, is an insult to the land of our birth. I have no problem in reiterating it.

soon after kargil, there was a rush among the sikhs and jats to join the army, but i am not aware of reading anywhere there was a similar rush by tambrams. if at all anything, we have always disinclined our youth from joining the armed forces in any capacity.

in today's india, we are undergoing massive social changes. we are probably trying to uproot prejudices and practices handed down through milleniums, all within a lifetime or two, as india is in a rush to catch up with the world and ensure that it gets its due respect befitting an ancient civilization, transposing itself into a modern society. communities forever condemned to the margins, or even beyond margins, have now a chance to dream of a better life for their progeny.

as a percentage, i feel, that we tambrams, have a lot lot fewer folks who could be defined as below poverty level. yes they should be helped up. what i find unacceptable is this level of anger fueled by the belief, that other communities are coming up at our expense. folks like partha, appear to subscribe to this type of thinking, judging by his posts. i am not going to quarrel with him, because for me, it is a waste of time and breath, to spend over such corruption. i would rather help someone who gives me hope and positive vibes, and not someone who has a grouse against the whole world.

in most societies, upheavals of the kind that is happening in india, has resulted in enormous bloodshed - one only has to turn the history pages on france, russia or china. it is to india's credit that we have turned around and elevated those disenfranchised as late as 60 years ago to positions of power, and built new generations of those communities who are able to participate in nation building in all its facets.

in any turmoil of this kind, there are those who are left behind. particularly from the erstwhile privileged class. by 'privilege', i do not necessarily mean one of wealth. i am referring more to a state of the mind, and the sense of entitlement that goes along with it. which i think, all the erstwhile so called high castes, have it instilled in them, sadly, even to this day.

in the context of this post, the elephant in the room, was the supposed incursions of the NBs into erstwhile exclusive brahmin entities like agraharams or our daughters/sisters and polluting our space/blood. i agree that all of us are prejudiced, and we only differ to the degree or level. when it comes to india as a whole, we often tend to forget, that modern india, belongs to all - right from the so called upper castes to the supposedly lowly dalits, the various other religious groups.

in that context, and based on the content of the post, the signature 'jai hind' was unbecoming. even when a president or prime minister signs off with jai hind, it is not preceded by vitriol against other castes or religions of india. i found insinuations in partha's posts, which were only magnified in his further diatribes against me.

basically i have no quarrel with partha. he is a newcomer with a single agenda. he has not established his bonafides and could be an avatar of the several frauds that we have had here. again he might be genuine, but till proved, folks of standing like me or you, have a responsibility to the forum, to stick with each other. inthe least. we could keep quiet.

you are only well aware, of the instigators and bogus folks who swarm here with a regularity and unfortunately, from my viewpoint, are still successful in inciting many honourable members against long standing folks like me.

i do not know how many members know of partha's antecedents and why the rush to defend someone who has posted exactly 11 posts, most of them disgustingly rude, against someone like me with over 2500 posts? and that too even without the courtesy of asking for a verification.

I do not frankly understand where I claim to be more privileged than anyone else or even come close to behaving like a moderator. Would it be fair to presume that you know enough about partha’s bonafides, atleast to the level you know of mine, to take a stand to outright attack me such.

‘I agree with you but feel that Shri Kunjuppu need (I feel should) have limited himself to clarifying his position instead of going into a sermon -cum- admonition mode. This gives an impression that Shri Kunjuppu is a more previleged member - something like a moderator. This position needs to be amended if people have to feel all members are equal in this forum.’

frankly, anyone could come here, write a few sentences of anger and in capitals, and we find a group rushing to their sympathy. for what? would we exhibit such behaviour in our own house if a stranger knocks on our door, and abuses a long standing neighbour? i think it is something that all members need to consider before jumping to conclusions. where is our sense? our sensibility?

My notes on genes and DNAs are but a pale of what was discussed here about how the tambram genes is no different than most of the other groups in India. What we have in us is a belief of our ‘purity of blood’ which have been defined as bunkum by many folks here.

To sum up, i was thinking of only folks like lt col viswananthan, and thousands of others who shed their lives, and to whom 'jai hind' was the last words.

to me it is certainly an abuse, if someone is unhappy with the social transformation that is happening in india and which to him appear a abomination. if such angry folks claim to be the new guardians of hinduism, to maitain a status quo on brahmin hegemony and have only contempt for the NBs and dalits, i am afraid, it is a very bleak future for our faith. it is neither sanatana or dharma, but in my opinion, an abomination of all the best of our values.

and your support of such attitudes is even more disheartening and disappointing. sorry sir, you failed me in my regard for you, in your support for folks like partha and his ilk. based on our dealings to date, i had expected something better.

thank you.’

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu Sir,

Greetings. Personally I don't favour one member over the other. In my opinion, number of messages posted or time of joining in this forum are mere numbers. I strive to look at each individual post on its merits and demerits. For example, just because you have posted oveer 2675 messages, just because you are the most popular member in this forum does not guarantee perfect messages everytime from you; there may be areas you may be lesss informed. As human beings, we are not perfect.

All I did was, to try and calm down an angry person, to stop him from posting angry messages. While it takes a lot of energy to post an angry message, it also takes a lot of energy not to retaliate in kind towards such messages. I can empathise both sides. When you see someone else trying to defuse the situation, you were not required to retaliate in kind.. While I was conducting an active conversation with one member, there was an indirect conversation going with the other member (in this case, yourself) too.

When a stranger starts shouting at my door step (have happened few times...at Keswick, an angry group approached my doorstep, one person even crossed my personal space with violent intents...turned out to be they were after the tenents in the basement; I requested the tenent's wife to handle the situation) I won't reject them outright; would ask him/her/them to explain more clamly. Often times, anger is the result from misunderstandings or lack of informations. You are right, experience and long standing counts...that's why I was only addressing the messages with 'caps on'; didn't mention anything about you, other than the suggesetion to seek explanation from you.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Sri. Sangom sir,

Greetings. Is it fair to test me like this? To start with I have only read only few of the 'Thiruppugazh' songs; that does not mean I could even remotely understand its meaning.....

Here is one andhaadhi... YouTube - ARUNAGIRI NATHAR

or this ...... YouTube - A SONG BY ARUNAGIRINATHAR

Was he a good a person or a bad person? what can I say? I do not know. I have not learned enough to pass a comment about Arunagirinathar.

But I can say this in general - if a person tries to pass the buck and blame others for all the not so good acts commited by him/her, lack of ownership indicates the absence of ending such deeds. So, such person would continue to perform not so noble acts while blaming others. Such person may not change.

I said I mentioned about varna in that post, only because it is there not because I am hung on that idea. For me personally there is only one varna, that is 'paint' (my house needs a coat badly).

Sri.Sangom Sir, it is quite lame to say that high caste NBs emulated caste brahmins in discriminating their lower castes. Sorry, I will not buy such arguments. We have ample opportunities to do socially unacceptable deeds; we may even be living in the midst of misfits; still we may not dream of doing such a deed. We don't simple emulate. Unless "we want to do it", we won't do it. So, personally I will hold every one respobnsible for all the social injustices, not just caste brahmins only.



When I was talking about 'platform literature', I was talking about 'banned literature'; that's why there was so much secrecy involved in obtaining such a 'priced treasure'! (priced, literally.. when a copy of Kumudham magazine costed 35 paisas, this literature work costed 5 rupees per copy!).



No body was innocent, Sir. Everyone was involved in social discriminations with a different dgree. For example, a 'vannaan' ( வண்ணான்) could only discriminate only few castes under them, while a Mudaliyar could discriminate more castes including the Vannaan caste! While reservations reflect such quantity of discriminations (while ST gets most benefit while MBC suppose to get a bit less benefits), excepting caste brahmins, even if they are dirt poor do not get any benefit while others, although practiced discriminations, without taking any ownership of their past actions, still get benefits. I was not saying anyone was innocent.



Who says Devas were nice people? They were involved in all sorts of atrocities, womanising activities, condemned a group of girls for prostitution activities and was indulged in intoxicating booze and drugs. Any just and decent person could become unacceptable for them. But that is a different topic......

Cheers!

Sri.Sangom Sir, it is quite lame to say that high caste NBs emulated caste brahmins in discriminating their lower castes. Sorry, I will not buy such arguments. We have ample opportunities to do socially unacceptable deeds; we may even be living in the midst of misfits; still we may not dream of doing such a deed. We don't simple emulate. Unless "we want to do it", we won't do it. So, personally I will hold every one respobnsible for all the social injustices, not just caste brahmins only.

My response:
Quite interesting. I remember to have read one of the Tagore's replies to a letter which ran somewhat like this (not verbatim):

it is unfair to blame brahmins for all the present day ills. They only reflected the times in which they lived. In fact they constituted the aristocracy of intellect, and they practised austerity of a rare kind that has done a great deal of good to the society.

Also the well know sociologist M.N. Srinivas coined a term "sanskritisation", which stirred a debate...

A great deal to ponder over.

Regards,
Swami

P.S: All debates need not start with defences and attacks.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

To All Members.,,
Hindu American Foundation has released a Report on 10th Dec,2010 admitting that the Caste System In HINDU SOCIETY is weakening the
Hindu Society and efforts should be made to remove 'caste based distinctions by Birth'.
Members who have access to the report may discuss the salient features of the report.