Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[pvraman]

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i do not find others are having any inferiority complex about their castes and ready to shun their caste. I am surprised to find (during my recent visit to TN) that many are having pride with their own castes. I think, the general feeling is that the inferior status or feeling with one's caste is going away. That's a good development.

 

[venkatpasupathy]

Shri PVR,
In Tamilnadu, especially down south people are proud of their castes. Even if they convert to other religions they are proud to retain their caste idendities. I do not know whether it is a good development. Venkat

 

[pvraman]

Shri Venkat,

The basic problem with the caste is that the superior inferior feelings. Once it is gone, all the group will be happy to live harmoniously with the comfort of one's own living style. Thats why living without any inferiority complex and getting equal rights are the basic things anyone would want. We can not have one culture through out India, there will be differences. Whatever may be the differences, if they have equal status there will be harmony. That's my opinion.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

PVR said: The basic problem with the caste is that the superior inferior feelings. Once it is gone, all the group will be happy to live harmoniously with the comfort of one's own living style.


Shri PVR,

The smrithis, dharmashastras clearly express superiority and inferiority. There is no question of removing only the "feeling" when such a scriptures exists.

You mention abt ppl taking pride in caste. But i think the ones who have started taking in pride in caste are most likely people who do not know what is written in the "shastras'.

And i think that after seeing casteism all around them, they have no choice but to start taking pride in caste.

Was speaking to someone. That someone claimed that Kayasthas are Kshatriyas. When i mentioned about the shastras (that is, the pov as held by the "brahmin" orthodoxy that Kayasthas were Shudras), that person who was unaware of such a pov, immediately blamed the 'brahmins' as cunning people, etc.

Simply bcoz some ppl have started taking so-called pride in caste can't be held as an excuse to propagate birth-based segregations.

Hindus in the past had unity in diversity - looks like those were the vedic times, and times long before the dharmashastras and smrithis surfaced (or rather long before interpolations in them surfaced).

There cannot be any talk of so-called "unity in diversity" in the present times with the kind of current scriptures we have.

Unless birth-based segregation goes from the scriptural pov, one cannot hope to achieve anything called unity in hindusim.

People claim a lot of things, like
"only evil things in casteism shd be removed", or
"casteism can never be removed", or
"politicians will keep caste even if we want to shed it",
or they will take the stand of victimhood or they will will take the stand of pride, or will go on to claim that
"others also take pride in their caste (obviously to justify their position of wanting to stay as "brahmins" on top of the varna pole)"

....everything said and done the truth is they are the ones who want the caste system to remain; and they are the ones who will try their best to ensure that their birth-based position is never threatened.

Regards.

 

[anandb]

Dear HH,

I don't want to go into the merits and the demerits of "Dharmashastras" as we have opposing points of view. What is amazing info. to me is they are still able to influence a vast majority of brahmins and other caste hindus in a negative way to practice caste discrimination. Which means these days a lot of people are studying the shastras and practicing them. Probably a small section of brahmins still do but then other caste brahmins looking into shastras, hmn?

The other news to me is the stranglehold of the kanchi mutt on the other Sankara mutts. That aside, I don't know much about the Sankara mutts in the north but know a lot about the Sringeri and Kanchi mutts as my wife's side follow Sringeri and I used to follow the Kanchi mutt during the Paramacharya's times. I have read their teachings pretty much and I can say this. No where I have found any references to practice caste discrimination. The advocacy of jati-dharma is more from a brahmin POV. Let us not forget that the Sankara mutts were based on Bhakti to the Isvara and ritualistic practices. When you talk about ritualistic practices it is the brahmins who were responsible for this and the mutts main focus was to keep telling the brahmins not to forsake their dharma (this was called the jati dharma).

This comes across in telling fashion in all the Paramacharya's discourses. It is another question that most of the brahmins chose to just listen but not practice what he said. The same is true with the Sringeri Acharya. We can actually see these mutts struggling to exercise control when it comes to advising brahmins because very few people listen to them. I had been to Sringeri 2 months back and saw a lot of brahmins waiting for the Acarya's darshan in trousers. Things have come to such a state that a brahmin doing the Sandya brings a smile on the Acharya's face when such a thing was unheard of about a few generations ago.

So let us accept the facts. Even assuming the shastras advise caste discrimination, we don't have a madrassa type system inculcating scriptural education from a young age where the youngsters learn to practice discrimination. Which clearly establishes that the distinctions are in the mindset more than anything else. Secondly, blaming the Sankara mutts for this state of affairs is even more ridiculous. The choice of words like "god knows what means" is also extremely derogatory. I am all for abolishing caste based discrimination but we need to fix our mindsets first than try to find scapegoats.

 

[Vijaynurani]

Brahmins

Being born as a brahmin is no different than being born as white, black, poor, rich, good looking, ugly, etc etc. This is nothing that we actually control and is all based on Karma theory. One should neither be proud or feel depressed about your opening balance sheet. Its what we do in this life is important

My thoughts...

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,

I don't want to go into the merits and the demerits of "Dharmashastras" as we have opposing points of view. What is amazing info. to me is they are still able to influence a vast majority of brahmins and other caste hindus in a negative way to practice caste discrimination. Which means these days a lot of people are studying the shastras and practicing them. Probably a small section of brahmins still do but then other caste brahmins looking into shastras, hmn?

i think only NBs like me are looking into the shastras, to see where from the accusation of discriminations are coming from...otherwise, i don't think anyone is interested in looking into shastras.

The other news to me is the stranglehold of the kanchi mutt on the other Sankara mutts. That aside, I don't know much about the Sankara mutts in the north but know a lot about the Sringeri and Kanchi mutts as my wife's side follow Sringeri and I used to follow the Kanchi mutt during the Paramacharya's times. I have read their teachings pretty much and I can say this. No where I have found any references to practice caste discrimination. The advocacy of jati-dharma is more from a brahmin POV. Let us not forget that the Sankara mutts were based on Bhakti to the Isvara and ritualistic practices. When you talk about ritualistic practices it is the brahmins who were responsible for this and the mutts main focus was to keep telling the brahmins not to forsake their dharma (this was called the jati dharma).

This comes across in telling fashion in all the Paramacharya's discourses. It is another question that most of the brahmins chose to just listen but not practice what he said. The same is true with the Sringeri Acharya. We can actually see these mutts struggling to exercise control when it comes to advising brahmins because very few people listen to them. I had been to Sringeri 2 months back and saw a lot of brahmins waiting for the Acarya's darshan in trousers. Things have come to such a state that a brahmin doing the Sandya brings a smile on the Acharya's face when such a thing was unheard of about a few generations ago.

So let us accept the facts. Even assuming the shastras advise caste discrimination, we don't have a madrassa type system inculcating scriptural education from a young age where the youngsters learn to practice discrimination. Which clearly establishes that the distinctions are in the mindset more than anything else. Secondly, blaming the Sankara mutts for this state of affairs is even more ridiculous. The choice of words like "god knows what means" is also extremely derogatory. I am all for abolishing caste based discrimination but we need to fix our mindsets first than try to find scapegoats.

I apologise for the sentence you found derogatory. I have edited out my previous post.

As far as discrimination goes, sir, am reproducing a few verses from the Apastamba's dharmasutra. Source - PASTAMBA PRASNA I, PATALA 1, KHANDA, 1. :

(There are) four castes--Brâhmanas, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas, and Sûdras. Amongst these, each preceding (caste) is superior by birth to the one following.

To serve the other (three) castes (is ordained) for the Sûdra. The higher the caste (which he serves) the orreater is the merit.

From Gautama's dharmashastra: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/gautama1.asp

1) please read chapter 9 verse 11 (unable to copy-paste the verse). It says that a dwija must not drink water offered by a shudra or an impure man.

2) Chapter 10, verse 58 says a shudra has to use the cast-offs (shoes, umbrellas, mats ) of the higher castes.

3) Chapter 12, verse 4 says if a shudra listens to the vedas, his ears shall be filled with molten tin or lac.

4) Chapter 12, verse 5 says if a shudra recites the vedas, his tongue will be cut off.

5) Chapter 12, verse 6 says if a shudra remembers the vedas, his body shall be split in twain.

6) Please also read the whole Chapter 12.

Most verses of the dharmashastras clearly use the terms "higher" and "lower' castes and the terms "superior" and "inferior" birth.

No idea on what basis do you say that the dharmashastras do not promote discrimination.

Reg jaati-dharma, i am afraid if i say anything, you will feel offended again. Obviously you have already read the chapters in this hyperlink: Hindu Dharma: Dharmasastra : kamakoti.org

There is an explanation given that smrithis must be looked upon as an "authority": Smritis - not Independent Works from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

I only wonder which smrithis are expected to be followed - the ones that allow 'brahmins' to take up any job and yet call himself a brahmin or the ones that say a brahmin is no longer a brahmin if he takes up other professions.

Simply by saying a few positive things that paramacharya said about "shudras' does not negate what is already there in the dharmashastras....

And am also wondering about the represention of a "brahmin" in the kamakoti article and description of a brahmin's duties. Why wud a priest need to survive on bhiksha when he can get dakshina for his services. Only a monk survives on bhiksha.

To me, it looks like a case of priests (purva mimansa followers) adopting the practices of vedantin (uttara mimansa) monks (in the 8th century) and claiming of themselves as 'brahmin' as though they have inherited brahma-jnanam by birth.

Obviously smarthas are followers of smrithis, so it shd not be a surprise that Kanchi mutt wants to promote dharmashastras.

I really have no idea wud anyone want people to follow law-books or laws of some bye-gone era like the 2nd century, in the 20th and 21st centuries.

If you are going to respond to these POVs by posting kamakoti's POVs, then let me tell you this - don't bother.

I have read the kamakoti articles and i cud write an equally long article with many-many points disproving of several things that the articles claim.

And today, no matter who the dharmashastras despised and kept out, you have loudpseakers blasting CDs with vedic chantings reaching the ears of the very beings that the dharmashastras despised - shudras, women and dogs.

Anand, i must also let you know in advance that if we continue to speak on this topic, my future comments are not going to be palatable. No matter how much i try to "decorate" words, the content will still be unpalatable. If only there was a provision for discussions on such topics on closed threads....

Obviously, you are not a dharmashastra follower if you

a) send your daughter to school
b) send your daughter / wife to work
c) do not keep the women of your house as dependents on you (women are not allowed to be independent).
d) conduct ceremonies for shudras (since shudras are not allowed to listen or recite vedas).

Obviously, priests have been conducting things from weddings and naming ceremonies of babies, to death rituals for "shudras" for so long. Why some 'shudras' even built temples and decided on appointment of priests. To make matters worse, there are 'shudras' in the present time who consider themselves as the 'noveau poor' and the brahmins as the 'noveau riche', and will claim that "brahmins survived off us for so long and now they talk...".

So, how many 'brahmins' are following smrithis as an "authority" just as the vedas today? Esp if they are not even following the above 4 points.

These laws (to me) are a whole lot of rubbish. Am amazed that they are expected to be considered an "authority".

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Shri PVR,

The smrithis, dharmashastras clearly express superiority and inferiority. There is no question of removing only the "feeling" when such a scriptures exists.

When we talk about superiority & inferiority - it may be applicable only a person lives as per smirties. As per Manu smriti, a brahmana should learn veda, teach veda, do yaga, make others do yaga, cook his own food from the grains which was given by others, no wealth accumulation and no food accumulation not even for next time. If anybody lives like that, and if he is considered as superior, i would be happy to be considered as shudras. When ever such discrimination are advocated, people who read sastras have the liberty to point out the qualifications to command that kind of superiority. In other words, if some "Brahamana" lives like that, he would never consider superior or inferior. Thats against his humility.

You mention abt ppl taking pride in caste. But i think the ones who have started taking in pride in caste are most likely people who do not know what is written in the "shastras'.

Probably they know how to treat varnas and castes and know the practical differences.

And i think that after seeing casteism all around them, they have no choice but to start taking pride in caste.

IMHO, they take pride, when they prosper. In today's world. Poor man is equivalent to dead man. (taken from somewhere - not my own words). So, the pride comes after fulfilling the belly, indulge in social activity, consider themselves as a contributor next comes pride.

Was speaking to someone. That someone claimed that Kayasthas are Kshatriyas. When i mentioned about the shastras (that is, the pov as held by the "brahmin" orthodoxy that Kayasthas were Shudras), that person who was unaware of such a pov, immediately blamed the 'brahmins' as cunning people, etc.

I Pity him/her.

Simply bcoz some ppl have started taking so-called pride in caste can't be held as an excuse to propagate birth-based segregation.

Even if we like it or not, the caste is a identification. Nothing like Superior or inferior. One may feel inferior till he gets a decent money, after that i have seen people just change their tune.

Hindus in the past had unity in diversity - looks like those were the vedic times, and times long before the dharmashastras and smrithis surfaced (or rather long before interpolations in them surfaced).

There cannot be any talk of so-called "unity in diversity" in the present times with the kind of current scriptures we have.

Unless birth-based segregation goes from the scriptural pov, one cannot hope to achieve anything called unity in hindusim.

IMHO, the varna system, vedic dharma as per the scripture are dead system and deserted path. Has no relevance in today's living. Thats why nobody bothers to even see the scriptures except few intellectuals and political leaders. Presently we are following Hindu religion which is a very flexible system. It allows, to criticize any god, bad mouth any rituals, pray any god, with mantras or without mantras. We live our day to day life with our aim fixed at Wealth. Money is the supreme god. To achieve it to preserve it we go to the temple to pray for that. I mean most of us.

People claim a lot of things, like
"only evil things in casteism shd be removed", or
"casteism can never be removed", or
"politicians will keep caste even if we want to shed it",
or they will take the stand of victimhood or they will will take the stand of pride, or will go on to claim that
"others also take pride in their caste (obviously to justify their position of wanting to stay as "brahmins" on top of the varna pole)"

....everything said and done the truth is they are the ones who want the caste system to remain; and they are the ones who will try their best to ensure that their birth-based position is never threatened.

Regards.

Castes will remain for a very long time. If the equality and pride is attached to castes, the life will be smooth for society. What we need is a mutual respect for other castes and address the Dalits problem whole heartedly. If their merging is gradual and smooth, it will remain forever. But forceful merging will do bad than good. I am talking from the present situation. It is only prevailing in some of the villages. I think in cities, there is no barrier as such.

The castes are growing year after year. Comparing old Brahmanas with the present caste brahmins (working) may not be an apple to apple comparison. I do not have any knowledge about the day to day life of Brahmin priests. So, i am unable to comment about them.

IMHO, Any of the caste members who aspire to be priests(!) will not take long time, because already schools here started to teach Sanskrit language, which will give them the key to learn vedas. Its just a matter of time before they understand mantras and debate. Hopefully, in future, with the blessings of all, priests income will be as lucrative as of a ERP project manager.

Regards

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

These laws to me are a whole lot of rubbish. Am amazed that they are expected to be considered an "authority".

True. It has no relevance today. Money and power is the final authority.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Castes will remain for a very long time. If the equality and pride is attached to castes, the life will be smooth for society. What we need is a mutual respect for other castes and address the Dalits problem whole heartedly. If their merging is gradual and smooth, it will remain forever. But forceful merging will do bad than good. I am talking from the present situation. It is only prevailing in some of the villages. I think in cities, there is no barrier as such.

am sorry Shri PVR, i do not think "equality" can be "attached to castes" when the scriptures so clearly define superiority and inferiority.

The only way to disentangle the mess (created by linking jaati to varna) is to get the shankara matts to (a) declare the jaati-dharma as invalid in today's times, and (b) to take in students across all strata to show that they practice what they preach.

And by Shankara matts, i esp mean kanchi Mutt, bcoz it is at the forefront of propagating the dharmashastra-based jaati-dharma.

Only God knows if the merger is going to come about by peaceful means or forceful means. Hope Kanchi matt chooses the peaceful way of welcoming ppl home.

Regards.

 

[sapthajihva]

The Upanishads clearly say that Athma is devoid of any inferiority or superiority complex. But when it gets associated with the gross body, and as a result of subsequent karmas, there are certain deficiencies attached to it, purely on the lines of moksha as the purushartha.

This is where the superiority/inferiority of the jivathma comes in. But this is only relevant when one dwells on it consistently. Varna dharma has been there for thousands and thousands of years... if it were not needed, avatharapurushas like Rama or Krishna would have said so.

We find the view distorted now because we have become materialistic now. We strive for Artha or Kama as our purusharthas, and hence, this perception of distortion in the varna, or shasthras, or vedhas, is natural.

When we are comparing Smrithis with current practices, they would definitely appear out of context. This is because we are traversing various yugas, when we discuss about such topics.

...............................

Without undergoing the nithya karmas, the required austerities, and the adhyayanam from a proper guru, one cannot properly understand and appreciate the scriptures. Sanskrit is a very versatile language and if an ignorant reads it, several other interpretations would strike the mind instead of the intented one. The person becomes a self-appointed arbitrater of the merit of the scriptures. It is his whim and fancy then, as to how he relates it. The mind of a shudra, predominantly in the thamo guna range, is more likely to misinterpret it, as is happening now. This is why they were prohibited from reciting the vedhas. People quoting scriptures from the net and arguing without undergoing the fundamentals are living examples.

The result is there for all to decide. In due course of time, vedhas would be turned into demonic scriptures by these 'intelligentsia'.

It is really a sad state of affairs.

And about a point posted by happyhindu:

The only way to disentangle the mess (created by linking jaati to varna) is to get the shankara matts to (a) declare the jaati-dharma as invalid in today's times, and (b) to take in students across all strata to show that they practice what they preach.

A mutt declaring as above does not make the varna invalid. It is ordained by the vedhas, by the supreme. It is an innate quality of every jivathma, and cannot be brushed away by any doctrinal injunctions of any Mutt. Which is precisely the reason, Mutts would not do that. Please add this to your fantasy collection.

 

[happyhindu]

Varna dharma has been there for thousands and thousands of years... if it were not needed, avatharapurushas like Rama or Krishna would have said so.

another illogical pov.

please prove to me its been there for thousands and thousands of years...

We find the view distorted now because we have become materialistic now. We strive for Artha or Kama as our purusharthas, and hence, this perception of distortion in the varna, or shasthras, or vedhas, is natural.

Materialism has nothing to do with ppl who seeks religious education as well as those who seek to explore the spirit...
All these scriptural POVs have nothing to do with the fact that some 'brahmins' still continue to keep out certain sections from vedic schools, seek to keep the society segregated on baseless "spiritual grounds" and propagate a whole lot of obfuscation.

When we are comparing Smrithis with current practices, they would definitely appear out of context. This is because we are traversing various yugas, when we discuss about such topics

oops, i shd have expected you to speak of yugas....of those thousands and thousands of years.

its funny actually, esp when there is proof that not even language (or sanskrit) is that old and its pretty much apparent the smrithis were written after the vedic period.......but ofcourse, everything that contradicts the one-sided view of the shastras is wrong.

And about a point posted by happyhindu:
A mutt declaring as above does not make the varna invalid. It is ordained by the vedhas, by the supreme. It is an innate quality of every jivathma, and cannot be brushed away by any doctrinal injunctions of any Mutt. Which is precisely the reason, Mutts would not do that. Please add this to your fantasy collection.

yeah, more talk and talk.
Lets see what happens in future -- fantasy, fact or fiction....
The masses are no fools -- if you can drop your fantasies of self-deluding stuff, you cud try to remember just that one line in the future.

nothing more to say to you.

good bye.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Dear sapthajihva,

Well written.Only a brahmin can understand the sentiments expressed by you,clearly there are some non-brahmins in the forum,which is very evident in the responses thus far.

nach naga

 

[renuka]

Dear all,
Cant we just realise that the Varnaashrama system is just based on dominant gunas in us which over the genarations became a hard and rigid rule.

We do not need anyone to declare Varnaashrama null and void because gunas are present in all of us in varying degrees.
Learning religion in depth is a serious matter not just a fad.
One really has to prepare onself and purify ones thought,word and deed(Trikarana Suddhi) .
Shradda, Bakthi and Nistha is needed.

Like in Malaysia these days many new meditation centres have mushroomed teaching Intensive Kundalini Activation by short cut method which does not need any modification of behaviour and diet.

Many still eat Non veg, drink,smoke uncontrolled sexual desires but claim to have their Kundalini in the highest chakra possible.
What do they really achieve?
Nothing I can safely say.

One needs to climb the scale of Gunas from Tamas -- Tamas + Rajas Guna---Rajas+ Sattva--- Sattva--- and finally Nirguna.
This applies to everyone as no one unless a Jeevan Muktha is born Nirguna.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear all,
Cant we just realise that the Varnaashrama system is just based on dominant gunas in us which over the genarations became a hard and rigid rule.

Renuka,

There is a diff here.

The varna dharma of the non-shankara mutts is not the varna dharma of the shankara-mutts.

To the shankara mutts, or rather to the kanchi mutt, varna dharma is jaati-dharma. To them, a man's jaati is decided by birth. To them, the jaati is the varna. To a non-shankara advaitin, a man's jaati is not decided by birth.

What you are expressing is not the view of the shankara mutts. Some smarthas of this forum do not accept that jaati dharma became a rigid rule over the generations. To them, it has always existed in the current form.

The POVs of the a certain section of forum members (who come back here under diff handle names is this):

a) Smrithis have been there since time immemorial. [They do not accept that smrithis were written after the vedic period].

b) Smarthas have been there since times immemorial.

c) Brahmins are descendents of Brahma.

d) Everyone is a low-born except a brahmin [You will find this view expressed directly or indirectly in subtle covered up or open ways].

e) Only brahmins are pure and everyone else is impure [Again, you will find this view expressed directly or indirectly in subtle covered up or open ways].

f) Brahmins have been around since yugas. And they believe they are the descendents of those old brahmins who were present in the ramayan and mahabharat periods. [They are blind to the fact that a section of 'brahmins' show up later-day central-asian origins, which i call as mlecchha origins].

Reg the rest of your post, yes its sad that meditation and yoga have become commercial activities that fool people to make money. The people who join these centres are as much to blame as the people who run such centres.

 

[renuka]

Dear happy hinduji,

Does it really matter what the Mutts think?
I dont want to find fault with them, they might have their own valid reason.

There can be keepers for religion but there can never be keepers for GOD.
Its finally up to the individual to realise GOD on his/her own.
Guru can only help to a certain extent.
Guru only dispells darkness but its us that need to lead ourselves from darkness to light.
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya

There are so many other ways to learn religion and Vedas.
You should go to Puttaparthi and see and hear the students of various races and nationalities both boys and girls of the world recite the Vedas like water.
Where there is a Will there is a Way.

 

[Nara]

Well written.Only a brahmin can understand the sentiments expressed by you,clearly there are some non-brahmins in the forum,which is very evident in the responses thus far.

Hello Shri Naga, In just two small sentences you have raised so many questions.

[1] What is it that Saptha has written that only a Brahmin can understand?
[2] That there are NB's in this forum is well known. Some have been quite open about that. So whatever do you mean by this?
[3] What responses of the members that make you identify the NB's? What in what they write gives it away for you?

I wish people are open and clear about what they are talking about so that they can be understood clearly.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear happy hinduji,

Does it really matter what the Mutts think?
I dont want to find fault with them, they might have their own valid reason.

Yes Renu, i think it does matter what the mutts propagate. Because "they think they matter the most" in hinduism. Infact they think they are the most important institutions in hinduism.

They

a) portray themselves as everything that is orthodox in hindusim.

b) and (to me), it mainly bcoz, they are the one that propagate social segregations which has been resulting in social chaos to this day (one example is the government based reservations that are a reactionary measure to the birth-based segregations that the shankara mutts propagate).

So far the kanchi mutt has not given any valid reason why it does not want to open admissions of vedic schools to all sections. But obviously opening admissions to all means going against the smartha ideology that follows the dharmashastra system of birth-based segregation. To them, its about exclusivity.

There can be keepers for religion but there can never be keepers for GOD.

Please try telling that to some smarthas on this forum itself. To me, they are the abnormals. Please go thru old posts. You will find the abnormals (old posters) expressing a lot of things, explicitely as well as between the lines. They consider only 'brahmins' as the ones capable of anything that is "spiritual" and "holy", the only ones entitled to do havans, the only ones that are pure, the only ones that have descended from brahma and the only ones that can be keepers of god (by birth).

There are so many other ways to learn religion and Vedas.
You should go to Puttaparthi and see and hear the students of various races and nationalities both boys and girls of the world recite the Vedas like water.
Where there is a Will there is a Way.

I think it is painful for some 'brahmins' to see vedas being recited by all, regardless of race or religion or nationality, since that affects their "exclusivity".

Anyways, Satya Sai is considered a spiritual fraud by some members of this forum, like Sri Venkataramani (RVR) ji and Pannvalan ji. This thread created quite some ruckus: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3047-spiritual-frauds.html

Regards.

 

[Nara]

...
Obviously, you are not a dharmashastra follower if you

a) send your daughter to school
b) send your daughter / wife to work
c) do not keep the women of your house as dependents on you (women are not allowed to be independent).
d) conduct ceremonies for shudras (since shudras are not allowed to listen or recite vedas).

Hi,
There is a habit in this forum to simply ignore hard questions. This has happened to me one too many times.

1. Sapthajihva did not answer what good can be had with the caste system that cannot be had otherwise.
2. Raju did not answer why the present day SV institutions for not follow the edicts of the their own poorva acharayas and Azhvars.
3. Spirl2al just left without answering some of my questions about Chidambaram temple
4. BrahmmaRishi/Sunilkumar just went away without answering even the simplest and most fundamental of questions
5. The latest among these is Appaiah, he did a snow job on me, and then just simply absconded and ignored my questions to him about what his view is with respect to dalits.

In the case of Sapthajihva and Raju, we stopped the discussion with mutual consent. Therefore I cannot and do not fault either of them, but the questions do remain unanswered.

The case of Appaiah is most egregious in my view. He went on a full court press and then just vanished without a trace. may be he will be back when he has nothing better to do for another snow job.

Anyway, HH deserves a direct answer to the questions she has raised. Why praise the Dharma shahsthras to the hilt and then just ignore what is ordained in them? Either you must satisfactorily give answers to her questions, or accept that part of Dharmashashthras are pretty odious.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Hello Shri Naga, In just two small sentences you have raised so many questions.

[1] What is it that Saptha has written that only a Brahmin can understand?
[2] That there are NB's in this forum is well known. Some have been quite open about that. So whatever do you mean by this?
[3] What responses of the members that make you identify the NB's? What in what they write gives it away for you?

I wish people are open and clear about what they are talking about so that they can be understood clearly.

Cheers!

oh never mind sri nara.

you are new to this forum so you have no idea about the old members here (the 'abnormals' to me).

Some of them keep coming back with new names. They have a great sense of "exclusive" superiority -- which gets expressed as victimhood, portraying a one-sided view as the only view, blaming others, vilifying posters...They wud back-pat each other and praise each other's posts. Anything expressed by anyone that did not tally with their right-wing extremist views, was handled badly. They have done a lot of name-calling in the past too - to which the likes of me retaliated in just the same coin. I used the handlename "Palindrome" just to handle the likes of certain posters.

Though these characters keep coming back, unfortunately for the likes of such people, the signatures of their posts (in terms of the language used) is a dead give-away...

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

I on a personal basis dont like fault finding.
That is why I am not finding fault with the Matts.Does it actually matter how they think?
As i said earlier they might have a valid reason which I am not aware of.
Regarding the old post, I have read most of it including about Sathya Sai Baba.
I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion in this forum whether positive or negative inputs.
I rather just enjoy the essense of Hinduism and not feel differentiated into various man made rigid rules and classification.
Original Varnaashrama was not meant to be like what it is misundersttod now.
Anyhow its only this life Varnashrama which we know.
What were we before or what are we going to be in future?
God knows.Body changes like worn out garment being replaced by new garments.
Atma was always and will always remain the same. Unchanged.
Shouldnt we be concentrating on the Atmic Principle instead of this this bodily identification?
You know actually no one can ever find fault with anyone.
Anyone who does is no Panditah: and obviously has no Samadarshinah:

renu

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

I on a personal basis dont like fault finding.
That is why I am not finding fault with the Matts.Does it actually matter how they think?
As i said earlier they might have a valid reason which I am not aware of.
Regarding the old post, I have read most of it including about Sathya Sai Baba.
I feel everyone is entitled to their opinion in this forum whether positive or negative inputs.
I rather just enjoy the essense of Hinduism and not feel differentiated into various man made rigid rules and classification.
Original Varnaashrama was not meant to be like what it is misundersttod now.
Anyhow its only this life Varnashrama which we know.
What were we before or what are we going to be in future?
God knows.Body changes like worn out garment being replaced by new garments.
Atma was always and will always remain the same. Unchanged.
Shouldnt we be concentrating on the Atmic Principle instead of this this bodily identification?
You know actually no one can ever find fault with anyone.
Anyone who does is no Panditah: and obviously has no Samadarshinah:

renu

Dear Renu,

You are exactly what i was a few months back; and more so you are a lot like what i was a few years back

What i am now is because i have communicated with 'dalit' (non-political) writers - and i do feel that one cannot be selfish to pursue only his own goals...

Each of us are aware of our goals, but if along the way, one can give a voice to those who wish to be treated as "humans" and as 'equals", then i think there is nothing wrong with it.

What may sound as fault-finding to one, may not be fault-finding at all.

What i am doing is to simply point out discrepencies that have prevented an all-inclusive hindu society...and that to some, may be seen as 'faults".

Best wishes.

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Is anyone these days actually so downtrodden?
Education, job oppurtunities are open to everyone.
Health services are provided for everyone.

You know i am going to tell you something.
I am a non Brahmin myself and I have come to realise not many Non Brahmins actually want to learn about religion in depth.
You know when I first started learning Sanskrit on my own everyone of my friends(Non Brahmins) asked me."Why on earth are you learning Sanskrit?"

i replied that I want to read religion in sanskrit to avoid any misinterpration in the English text.
to which they replied" What on earth are you going to gain reading about religion?"

Believe me interest in religion is really lacking.People are more interested in rituals which would bear Karma Phala.
No one care to know even the meaning of a Mantra.

I have a friend who just came back from pilgrimage from India and when he came back all he bought was books on astrology, vasthu sashtra and books for increasing wealth through prayer.
He only thought of wealth.

Actually I feel that in most 3rd world countries, safe and clean water supply, education esp for women and health services to the poor needs to be looked into first.
Once a persons economic status is elevated their social status will be elevated too.
They can pursue religion once they feel they are ready.

Lord Ganesha is pictured as large bellied(Lambhodhara) denoting that one needs to have his belly fiiled before he can contemplate on God.

renu

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Is anyone these days actually so downtrodden?
Education, job oppurtunities are open to everyone.
Health services are provided for everyone.

Yes there are downtrodden people. You see them in slums, villages, cities, everywhere. In the north, it is especially pronounced. Its not an uncommon sight to see a bhangi being called a bhangi directly on his face and being treated like s**t.

You know i am going to tell you something.
I am a non Brahmin myself and I have come to realise not many Non Brahmins actually want to learn about religion in depth.
You know when I first started learning Sanskrit on my own everyone of my friends(Non Brahmins) asked me."Why on earth are you learning Sanskrit?"

Same here.

I do not see any NBs interested in religion. I ventured into honing sanskrit skills, learning abt scriptures, etc on my own. And for that, i was (and am) considered an utterly useless good-for-nothing person.

Its the so-called 'dalits' that are interested in religious studies, not the regular NBs. And not all 'dalits' are intrested in that either. The smarter ones know the path to success is money, not shastras. But anyways, there are ppl amongst them that are spiritually inclined, not interested in materialism, and yearn to study in vedic schools. Who are we to stop them?

I have no idea what makes mutts control admission to vedic schools, what makes 'brahmins' of these mutts so determined not to allow other castes to receive vedic education...

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

i think only NBs like me are looking into the shastras, to see where from the accusation of discriminations are coming from...otherwise, i don't think anyone is interested in looking into shastras.

I apologise for the sentence you found derogatory. I have edited out my previous post.

As far as discrimination goes, sir, am reproducing a few verses from the Apastamba's dharmasutra. Source - PASTAMBA PRASNA I, PATALA 1, KHANDA, 1. :

From Gautama's dharmashastra: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/gautama1.asp

Most verses of the dharmashastras clearly use the terms "higher" and "lower' castes and the terms "superior" and "inferior" birth.

No idea on what basis do you say that the dharmashastras do not promote discrimination.

Reg jaati-dharma, i am afraid if i say anything, you will feel offended again. Obviously you have already read the chapters in this hyperlink: Hindu Dharma: Dharmasastra : kamakoti.org

There is an explanation given that smrithis must be looked upon as an "authority": Smritis - not Independent Works from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

I only wonder which smrithis are expected to be followed - the ones that allow 'brahmins' to take up any job and yet call himself a brahmin or the ones that say a brahmin is no longer a brahmin if he takes up other professions.

Simply by saying a few positive things that paramacharya said about "shudras' does not negate what is already there in the dharmashastras....

And am also wondering about the represention of a "brahmin" in the kamakoti article and description of a brahmin's duties. Why wud a priest need to survive on bhiksha when he can get dakshina for his services. Only a monk survives on bhiksha.

To me, it looks like a case of priests (purva mimansa followers) adopting the practices of vedantin (uttara mimansa) monks (in the 8th century) and claiming of themselves as 'brahmin' as though they have inherited brahma-jnanam by birth.

Obviously smarthas are followers of smrithis, so it shd not be a surprise that Kanchi mutt wants to promote dharmashastras.

I really have no idea wud anyone want people to follow law-books or laws of some bye-gone era like the 2nd century, in the 20th and 21st centuries.

If you are going to respond to these POVs by posting kamakoti's POVs, then let me tell you this - don't bother.

I have read the kamakoti articles and i cud write an equally long article with many-many points disproving of several things that the articles claim.

And today, no matter who the dharmashastras despised and kept out, you have loudpseakers blasting CDs with vedic chantings reaching the ears of the very beings that the dharmashastras despised - shudras, women and dogs.

Anand, i must also let you know in advance that if we continue to speak on this topic, my future comments are not going to be palatable. No matter how much i try to "decorate" words, the content will still be unpalatable. If only there was a provision for discussions on such topics on closed threads....

Obviously, you are not a dharmashastra follower if you

a) send your daughter to school
b) send your daughter / wife to work
c) do not keep the women of your house as dependents on you (women are not allowed to be independent).
d) conduct ceremonies for shudras (since shudras are not allowed to listen or recite vedas).

Obviously, priests have been conducting things from weddings and naming ceremonies of babies, to death rituals for "shudras" for so long. Why some 'shudras' even built temples and decided on appointment of priests. To make matters worse, there are 'shudras' in the present time who consider themselves as the 'noveau poor' and the brahmins as the 'noveau riche', and will claim that "brahmins survived off us for so long and now they talk...".

So, how many 'brahmins' are following smrithis as an "authority" just as the vedas today? Esp if they are not even following the above 4 points.

These laws (to me) are a whole lot of rubbish. Am amazed that they are expected to be considered an "authority".

Damn, this happens only when I reply to your post. Happening for the 2nd time. I typed a mighty long response and then lost everything when the system asked me to log in. I am too bored to type this again so for the time being I will just leave as it is.