Is the Community digging its own grave

[Vaagmi]

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Palindrome

To everyone, want to say this -- please welcome anyone interested in your way of life, in terms of culture, rituals, food, etc (let it not be restricted to just IC/IR marriages).

Only interested? Not practising? And for how many generations in the past?

To those who think a brahmin gene pool is exclusive, i'd say, your narrow outlook will not help your lot. Exclusivity will make you extinct.

There is enough variety in-house. So the chances becoming extinct is very remote.

 

[Vaagmi]

yes. i was surprised udayakumar going crazy and frothing out rubbish like this.

this article came in keetru the online magazine, and i gave udayakumar 100 times more credit before i read this. he should know better, tellingly the comments feedback in keetru reminded him that there are no brahmins in the usa uk japan etc and even in pakistan.

also he was reminded that several brahmins supported anti nuclear stuff. maybe if you scratch NB anti brahmins comes to the fore? probably udayakumar is running out of arguements support and money.. too bad..i took him for something more.
stupid of udayakumar.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Udayakumar is committing the same mistake that was committed by the lankan freedom fighters.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Renuka Madam,

A union between a horse and a donkey produces a mule..which is sterile and unable to reproduce becos it is an inter species union.
I am a product of an intercaste marriage that too the pratiloma kind.
I got married and also had a child.
Ok now back to the point...what I want to say is if IC marriage is NOT sanctioned by God..all intercaste marriage children would have been like sterile Mules unable to have progeny!LOL

God does not do micro management.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in #447:

Dear Mr. Sangom,

I believe this is the basic point of divergence between you and me. What I said, or, rather tried to say, was that IC/IR marriages are some things which cannot be wished away by us today, and so perhaps it is better for us not to oppose such IC/IR marriages, as a matter of principle but to accept them wherever these happen. Since you seem to be going through the archives, you will find that about 2 or 3 years ago, I was also not in favour of IC/IR marriages. But happenings in the tabra community here in Kerala and the necessity felt in some special cases to have arranged IC marriages, made me aware of the fast-changing societal realities and I have accordingly changed my viewpoint also. Inflexibility and inability to adapt in such matters will only make us (old people) more irrelevant to the society.

Ic/Ir marriages have been happening since time immemorial. They will happen in future too just as they are happening in the present times. They do not require a reason to happen. There is no use banging your head against a stone wall. If a girl or a boy is bent on having a IC/IR marriage and is ready to ignore the sentiments of the parents and other near and dear ones, the marriage just happens. The issue here is not that. The relevant point is how is it accepted. Should we concur that the IC/IR marriages are desirable, they are great, they are better than the SC/SR marriages, they are something to be sought after etc.,? Societal realities have been changing all along. It is not something happening only now. When there is a tendency to trivialize and trash something which is harmless, beautiful which has stood the test of times well, why should we go with that? Should we not oppose that? These are the questions that have led me to participate in this discussion.

To buttress my point, I did not mean, nor do I hold even now that IC/IR marriages are the panacea for anything nor that "We can all discourage our girls from marrying boys from the Brahmin community. We will all actively look for boys from other castes…………. thrown out of the fellowship of the matom." This quoted portion was your hyper-reaction to some measured difference from your pov and it went to reveal how opinionated you are, that was all.

That was summing up the rebuttal to the ten points which preceded that para in that post.

As stated earlier IC/IR marriages are not undesirable under certain circumstances. During the last few years I have come to know of half a dozen marriages of tabra boys who just could not get any tabra/any other brahmin girl till they were 40+ or 50+, and their elders (brothers, chithappa, etc.,) took the lead to negotiate their marriage with NB brides from nair, teluguchetty, goldsmith, etc., communities. One or two of such brides have started their family life with their brahmin husbands in the very agraharams of Trivandrum. There was one case in which a tabra girl loved a very rich Nadar boy settled in S'pore; the girl's father was against it but the daughter was obstinate and declared that she would remain unmarried till his death and then marry that Nadar boy, if it came to that. The father was heart broken and died of kidney failure and the girl, true to her words, has recently married that boy with the blessings of her mother and all elders and possibly without a brahmin priest. (I don't know because it was done in TN some place.) That is why I once again say that accepting IC or even IR marriages may be unavoidable in our tabra community. But this does not immediately mean the other extreme viz., inter-brahmin marriage is evil and is to be prohibited.I hope you are intelligent enough to understand the profound difference.

Again I would like to keep aside the IC/IR love marriage. There is very little that can be done there. But are there not eligible Brahmin widows with or without children? My view on this is that boys should understand the true significance of the upanishadic words “prajA thanthum mA vyavachchEthsi”. Where marriages do not materialize because of economic factors, little can be done. But all other reasons are largely in the minds of the concerned two individuals. I understand your position well. But the dialogue is an attempt to look for validation of ideas. Thanks.

By and large, the scenario you give is correct, except that some extreme cases of tabra boys not getting any tabra or any other brahmin girl have also arisen during the last few years in Kerala and as described above by me, the elders themselves have had to go in for negotiated marriages with girls from NB communities. To this extent society is changing and it is upto each one of us to decide whether we will like to remain rock-like in our confirmed views or go along with the changes.

My view on this is that elders should look at widow(with or without issues) remarriage a little more liberally, and should encourage boys(?) who are stuck to marry even girls elder than them by a few years.

 

[prasad1]

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

To everyone, want to say this -- please welcome anyone interested in your way of life, in terms of culture, rituals, food, etc (let it not be restricted to just IC/IR marriages).

To those who think a brahmin gene pool is exclusive, i'd say, your narrow outlook will not help your lot. Exclusivity will make you extinct.

The last sentence seems like a superior lecturing to an inferior (your lot). What authority you have to predict the future of your enemy. For one who has no affinity to the Brahmin community, lecturing them is not right. We among brahmins are capable of finding our own way.

It is like Pakistani Muslim Telling, Indian to mend their ways or they will be extinct. It is very clear that Pakistani has no interest in Indian prosperity. Similarly if a Brahmin Hater, brahmin Basher tells the Brahmin the method to prosper, it must be full of hidden mines. Motive matters.

 

[Nara]

The last sentence seems like a superior lecturing to an inferior (your lot). What authority you have to predict the future of your enemy. For one who has no affinity to the Brahmin community, lecturing them is not right. We among brahmins are capable of finding our own way.

It is like Pakistani Muslim Telling, Indian to mend their ways or they will be extinct. It is very clear that Pakistani has no interest in Indian prosperity. Similarly if a Brahmin Hater, brahmin Basher tells the Brahmin the method to prosper, it must be full of hidden mines. Motive matters.

Why are you always so angry with somebody or the other? Why so much personal animosity? This post is a typical example of the point at which discussions take an ugly turn. Palindrome was expressing a POV which it seems you don't like. She did not saying anything negative about anybody, let alone anything about you, yet you come out swinging like this. Relax brother, take it easy, others have a right express their views, even if you think they belong to an inferior lot and are your enemy.

 

[auh]

To those who think a brahmin gene pool is exclusive, i'd say, your narrow outlook will not help your lot. Exclusivity will make you extinct.

There is a self contained judgemental tone of smugness written all over this piece. In a random world, with so many random happenings, it would be unhealthy to brand those who view a gene pool as exclusive, as narrow minded.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka Madam,



God does not do micro management.

LOL!

So now you have limited even the power of God??

 

[palindrome]

There is enough variety in-house. So the chances becoming extinct is very remote.

There is a self contained judgemental tone of smugness written all over this piece. In a random world, with so many random happenings, it would be unhealthy to brand those who view a gene pool as exclusive, as narrow minded.

Expected these responses. But look around. Don't you think nature's gameplan is already in execution?

The situation of certain communities is similar. Excessive and Unmarrried males. Fewer females (and this includes females who prefer to marry according to their expectations -- which may include IC/IR).

I would compare this with two Jat males.

Jat A married a female of his liking, sired kids, and ensured life moves on. One may think he has a better perspective of life, perhaps.

Jat B stuck in a khap and village kinda mentality, holding his casteism intact, is expecting his exclusivity to get him a jat bride but finds no takers. Considering how females in this decade have turned out, perhaps non-jat females will also not come near him.

Quite obviously Jat B without realizing it has set up himself for extinction.

This issue is not exclusive to tambrams alone. It is common to certain patrilineal communities including those habituated to dowry-taking. Perhaps nature is up against such people. Maybe. And/Or perhaps there is a gameplan of biological diversity involved in this marriage / mating scenario.

Vaagmi, the in-house variety merely denotes the mrca of any community were derived from various backgrounds, various gene pools, various tribes. Auh, it is unfortunate those who think their genepool is exclusive call others smug, unhealthy and judgmental. All i can say is good-luck to you. Perhaps some folks are mightier than nature

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome



Only interested? Not practising? And for how many generations in the past?

For how many generations are you able to prove your recent ancestors were practicing your culture? Are you able to prove they were not derived from an "interested" group which did not originally belong to the culture you currently practice?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

LOL!
So now you have limited even the power of God??

Dear Doc,
Vaagmi said "God does not". He did not say "God cannot" or "God is unable to".

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Kunjuppu,
Udayakumar is committing the same mistake that was committed by the lankan freedom fighters.

By this if you mean Udayakumar is raking up hatemongering against Brahmins to win the support of dravidianist political parties, I agree. Although, in the tamils issue, those political parties initially supported only to betray them at the crucial time. In the koodankulam issue, both the dominant parties seem to have always been in support of the plant.

 

[renuka]

Dear Doc,
Vaagmi said "God does not". He did not say "God cannot" or "God is unable to".

Dear Sir,

I know...but even then..can we say "God does not??"

I thought in Geeta Lord Krishna said that even though He does not have to preform actions yet He preforms actions"

I was having that in mind when I wrote my reply to Vaagmi sir.

So going by that it does not seem too accurate to say "God does not micro manage"

Chapter 3 Verse 22

O son of Prtha, there is no work prescribed for Me within all the three planetary systems. Nor am I in want of anything, nor have I need to obtain anything--and yet I am engaged in work.

 

[Vaagmi]

Palindrome,

Expected these responses. But look around. Don't you think nature's gameplan is already in execution?

what else can you expect?

The situation of certain communities is similar. Excessive and Unmarrried males. Fewer females (and this includes females who prefer to marry according to their expectations -- which may include IC/IR). I would compare this with two Jat males.
Jat A married a female of his liking, sired kids, and ensured life moves on. One may think he has a better perspective of life, perhaps.
Jat B stuck in a khap and village kinda mentality, holding his casteism intact, is expecting his exclusivity to get him a jat bride but finds no takers. Considering how females in this decade have turned out, perhaps non-jat females will also not come near him.

If Jat A had married blindly led by his harmones and fantasies a female from Chambal's ravines without doing a background check, he may one day end up in a police station explaining his inability to control his son who just the day before had taken a gun to the class room and shot dead just ten of his classmates.

Quite obviously Jat B without realizing it has set up himself for extinction.

If he knows Jat A's fate, he would be a happy man dying single.

Vaagmi, the in-house variety merely denotes the mrca of any community were derived from various backgrounds, various gene pools, various tribes. Auh, it is unfortunate those who think their genepool is exclusive call others smug, unhealthy and judgmental. All i can say is good-luck to you. Perhaps some folks are mightier than nature

It also means that the culture and values over thousand of years have had their impact on the genes of the community and so there is no case to tamper with that evolved gene pool by mating it with a less evolved or differently evolved gene pool. The result will be only a mule. Keep trying. Good luck.

 

[sarang]

Western civilization has given material comforts, but is leading the population in a different path. There are reports soon most of the marriages will not be stable, there will be multiple husband-wife-single families with the humourous quote expanded - your children and my children are playing with our children extended to include more domestic classification. Exceptions, transgressions will not significantly affect the culture if they are of low occurrence. Many aberrations or practices like homosexuality were tolerated and not punished, as long as these did not pose a threat to the ordered living. 'I am to decide and act the way I want, let the rules be damned' is an attractive proposition from the freedom of individual, expression and act point of view. But its application in everything may lead to disastrous results.

Last month, in a tv discussion, a lady divorce lawyer from mumbai, said that 8 out of 10 divorce demands are from love-marriage couples. That is her conclusion from the cases handled by her. She stood her ground despite somewhat hostile responses from the anchor and other panelists.

If as per the recent UK study, more than half the births will be outside wedlock, how will the society and community adapt to it?

 

[palindrome]

If Jat A had married blindly led by his harmones and fantasies a female from Chambal's ravines without doing a background check, he may one day end up in a police station explaining his inability to control his son who just the day before had taken a gun to the class room and shot dead just ten of his classmates.

{..}

If he knows Jat A's fate, he would be a happy man dying single.

So you are saying only brahmins have satvik genes and everyone else has criminal tendencies? If so, how do you explain criminals amongst brahmins? One just has to take a look at crime reports in UP and MP.

Btw, Don't you think dharmashastras exhibit criminal tendencies? The 'divine laws' merely exhibit cornering of resources. One may say its plain corruption or perhaps a survival instinct taken to the extreme.

It also means that the culture and values over thousand of years have had their impact on the genes of the community and so there is no case to tamper with that evolved gene pool by mating it with a less evolved or differently evolved gene pool. The result will be only a mule. Keep trying. Good luck.

You are absolutely mistaken. Clearly you are not a geneticist.

Perhaps you refer to the dual inheritance theory. Or no?

Firstly you need to explain what is culture? When we speak of culture shaping the genome we are speaking of pointers such as correlating lactose intolerance with cattle herding peoples. We are not speaking of your imagined "values" or your evolved gene pool (whatever that means). Since you have brought genetics into the picture, i can most certainly prove to you that your ancestry or origin is co-related to tribes which currently exist in India.

If you think present-day brahmins have existed since thousands of years, you need to explain how? You also need to prove your current culture existed thousands of years ago. Looking forward to your reply based on which culture you belong to -- vadakalai, thenkalai, madhava, vadama, brihacharanam, etc. Good luck.

Your reply will also correlate to my query in post # 460 wherein i asked --- For how many generations are you able to prove your recent ancestors were practicing your culture? Are you able to prove they were not derived from an "interested" group which did not originally belong to the culture you currently practice?

 

[kunjuppu]

By this if you mean Udayakumar is raking up hatemongering against Brahmins to win the support of dravidianist political parties, I agree. Although, in the tamils issue, those political parties initially supported only to betray them at the crucial time. In the koodankulam issue, both the dominant parties seem to have always been in support of the plant.

no matter what, udayakumar, with his world wide travel and experiences, should have not written that article, or put his name for authorship, if someone else wrote it. i have published my views in keetru (if it gets published at all) and withdrawn any thought of financial support.

 

[Vaagmi]

So you are saying only brahmins have satvik genes and everyone else has criminal tendencies? If so, how do you explain criminals amongst brahmins? One just has to take a look at crime reports in UP and MP.

Just as you have asked now I am asking you, What do the crime reports of UP and MP say? Do they say that the brahmins in these two states are all rajasic in nature and so majority of the criminals in the state come from the brahmin community? Please answer this question. Tit for tat apart, I do not say that every one else has criminal genes. Did I say? Please do not go overboard.

Btw, Don't you think dharmashastras exhibit criminal tendencies? The 'divine laws' merely exhibit cornering of resources. One may say its plain corruption or perhaps a survival instinct taken to the extreme.

My views on this already made clear. I do not subscribe to the theory that brahmins authored all the smritis and dharmashastras. I strongly believe that it was the handiwork of all the powerful middle castes and they added the names of brahmins as authors. The numbers are too revealing and circumstances are easily understandable.

You are absolutely mistaken. Clearly you are not a geneticist.

Are you a genetist to say this with any authority?

Perhaps you refer to the dual inheritance theory. Or no?
Firstly you need to explain what is culture? When we speak of culture shaping the genome we are speaking of pointers such as correlating lactose intolerance with cattle herding peoples. We are not speaking of your imagined "values" or your evolved gene pool (whatever that means). Since you have brought genetics into the picture, i can most certainly prove to you that your ancestry or origin is co-related to tribes which currently exist in India.

Lactose intolerance is just only one among the pointers. There can be many other pointers for different groups of people. If you can accept lactose intolerance as a pointer indicating culture superimposed on genes, you are accepting the effect of culture's impact on genes and their influence to change the genes in a fundamental way (lactose intolerance is not an acquired deficiency-if it is a deficiency at all) in the case of those herding groups. It has been written into the genes over a period of time. Similarly many other "pointers" can be written into the genes. I call it as culture. There are people who have done research into this who have clearly proved the effect of culture on genes. Please refer to Rob Boyd an anthropologist in the Univ. of california who has done research into this. It is he who first reported the lactose intolerance among the cattle herding groups as a pointer to the cultural impact on genes.

For me it is very simple. Culture represents a bunch of such pointers. So brahmins as a group had consciously chosen and retained many of these pointers as part of their culture and over generations these pointers as we see today are the unique tags to the genes of brahmins. Thus a vegetarian brahmin genes are fundamentally different from a non-vegetarian NB genes(even if the NB has chosen to become a vegan during his life time). The mixing of these heterogenous genes is counter productive. As you have given me the scientific proof which I was looking for Thank you.

If you think present-day brahmins have existed since thousands of years, you need to explain how? You also need to prove your current culture existed thousands of years ago. Looking forward to your reply based on which culture you belong to -- vadakalai, thenkalai, madhava, vadama, brihacharanam, etc. Good luck.

If the present day brahmins did not come from the brahmin forefathers from where else did they come? I thought you are interested in a decent discussion on brahmin culture. But it appears I am mistaken. You interest appears to be something else. I refuse to take your bait.

Your reply will also correlate to my query in post # 460 wherein i asked --- For how many generations are you able to prove your recent ancestors were practicing your culture? Are you able to prove they were not derived from an "interested" group which did not originally belong to the culture you currently practice?

What kind of proof will satisfy you. Please let me know. Carbon dated manuscripts which say that my ancestors were brahmins? What is this "interested group" you are referring to. Please elaborate.

 

[Nara]

Ravi, I am replying here as the other thread was intended for the poll and related discussion.

Shri Vaagmi, your concluding point no.4 correctly reveals what exactly Shri Nara, Shri Sangom and Shri Kunjuppu are advocating and why the strong criticism erupts here from the opposite camp.

Ravi, take a look at this post to see what I am advocating to those Brahmins who want to preserve their Brahmin culture. Does this sound to you anything like the point #4 you have mentioned above, namely, complete abandonment of everything and simply merging with a foreign culture? Ravi, please cite one post wherein I advocated what you are saying I am advocating? I request you to be specific. I welcome disagreement, but let it be with what I am saying, not what you say I am saying.

Thanks ....

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi, I am replying here as the other thread was intended for the poll and related discussion.

Ravi, take a look at this post to see what I am advocating to those Brahmins who want to preserve their Brahmin culture. Does this sound to you anything like the point #4 you have mentioned above, namely, complete abandonment of everything and simply merging with a foreign culture? Ravi, please cite one post wherein I advocated what you are saying I am advocating? I request you to be specific. I welcome disagreement, but let it be with what I am saying, not what you say I am saying.

Thanks ....

Shri Nara,

I have read your post in this thread that your have referred to me.


Though you came up with a list of recommendations, the bottom line of your POV on this thread topic or in any thread that expresses concern over Existence of Brahmin and the continuity of the community in future, citing social issue, especially such as willingly opting for IC/IR marriages by Brahmin girls; does not focus on possible ways and means to guide children against IC/IR marriages that would not only put them and their children in many hardships on individual level BUT would make the community extinct as well.

The center theme of your posts always advocates embarrassing choices of the children who deviate themselves from the Brahmin society in the name of pragmatism, as if their development/growth would be devastated if they stick to Brahmin community, marrying a Brahmin boy.



I would like to refer to the concluding statements of your same post no.262 to which you want to draw my attention -

Raise the children along these principles, whether they are born out of IC/IR or SC/SR. The threat of your "community digging its own grave" comes not from IC/IR alone but also SC/SR parents not caring about the above list.

So, my humble suggestion is, if the children wish to have IC/IR, don't oppose it, don't threaten them with dire consequences, accept them with love. Get involved in their lives. Then, when time comes, teach your grandkids to follow the Brahminical ways listed above. Don't you think this is way more practical than trying to send the children to Brahmin-certified schools etc.

Please think about it, there is practically no downside, IC/IR is becoming more and more common as you have noted in your OP. Therefore there is no stigma anymore. Further, your children will be grateful that you have accepted their choice of IC/IR with love, and will be happy that you are involved in their lives, which will give you the opportunity to pass on what you see are important Brahminical ways and cultural moorings to the next generation. In as much as you care for these and not for caste purity there must be no objections.

Referring to your statements above, highlighted in bold and italics -


Shr Nara, do you feel that Children who grown up in a Brahmin Society, having born to brahmin parents, having experienced many Brahmin style tradition, culture, customs etc..etc in their home, in the social circle, in their relative circle and still opting of IC/IR marriage, knowing the vast cultural/traditional/habitual (eating habits) variations would continue to hold on Brahminical life style? Would succeed in instilling the same values in their children and spouse on their own interest with back up of their parents?

Having themselves opted for IC/IR marriages can they thrust Brahmin practices on their spouse & children, leave alone the external support of their parents and extending the same to the next generation?


Sir,


The for most important thing is right parenting by Brahmin parents who value Brahmin tradition, culture, values. The ways and means of molding children starts right at home, right from the very beginning and unanimously by community efforts that can jointly work towards guiding our youths.

Whether Brahmin parents accept their children's IC/IR marriage, embrace them and involve in their life or not is an individual choice, as the situation may be demanding and such things can be accepted only as rarest of rare cases. Despite all the parenting efforts right from the beginning of the growing process of the child, if still things go wrong, nothing can be done. When things are out of control there can be nothing much to break one's head.

The focus of this thread and of any issues that are taken up to debate/share views in favor of Brahmins as Community is to find all the possible ways and means with which children can be molded correctly, within the family & community framework, while making them a good human, respecting and valuing people of other community as well that can help them coexist harmoniously in the vast globalized environment. There are many parents who did this and were successful in bringing up their children properly.


But, you have a different perspective with a focus & center theme that does not help any way constructively to help the community survive. I can understand your stand considering your migration to the western world and the environment in which your children have grown up. The same is the case with many NRIs in Western World, including some of your like minded members here. As such, I can understand and accept your fanda/concept of living harmoniously in a state of Bliss.

But, when the issues majorly revolves around Brahmin community in India/TN with Brahmins dwelling there, I would say that, what you advocate profoundly is much disheartening and destructive to Brahmins in India/TN. As such, there would be strong disagreement and oppositions to yours and your like minded member's similar views.

Such views of yours and other members steel away the opportunity (in every such threads) of other members to remain focused & spirited and share their views and opinions in addressing the issues for the betterment of the Brahmin Community. Finally we end up in accusing, blaming and thrashing each other in the flow of our heated arguments and the threads get closed or members quit from the thread to avoid further participation in the topic.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear ravi,

re your post #470.

i can empathize and understand the depth of your feelings. i would like my apologies at any time for wounding your feelings. it was never intended to be the same.

of late, i have been seeing a lot of caste related stuff, call it caste wars in the tamil blogs. it is part of our psyche, i have come to understand.

and the pains that go with it, in entrenched in the community. personally, i think, as an NRI i feel not qualified enough to comment any more on this subject any more. india, that i wish, and india that i imagine to be, and the india that is a reality, are two different things. for once i would incline that these are as vast as the distance between black and white.

that is a reality, and much as we face the problems of change, i think, i would more tend to observe than speak out on this topic. i have learnt a lot more, in the past few weeks, and today, re cheran, a person whom i admire, is in the same quagmire.

apologies to anyone else whose feelings may be hurt. all i can honestly that it never was intended to be such. ...

my views remain. but i find the complexity of the issue as viewed in india, overwhelms any change..which will come at its own pace and every person will deal with it in their own way. i doubt whether a community based solution is feasible, and will be followed by tambrams as a single effective entity. all i can say, let us have faith in the future.

peace.

[video=youtube;fXeMR7qbQfQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXeMR7qbQfQ[/video]

 

[Nara]

Though you came up with a list of recommendations, the bottom line of your POV on this thread topic or in any thread that expresses concern over Existence of Brahmin and the continuity of the community in future, citing social issue, especially such as willingly opting for IC/IR marriages by Brahmin girls; does not focus on possible ways and means to guide children against IC/IR marriages that would not only put them and their children in many hardships on individual level BUT would make the community extinct as well.

Ravi, My post to you was only about what you claimed that I was advocating, which is demonstrably false. Please cite one post where I advocated what you referred as Point #4. Criticize me all you want, but do it for what I am saying, not what you claim I am saying, that is all.

My views on other matters are crystal clear, no more elaboration is necessary.

Thanks ...

 

[Nara]

Just a point of fact ... both Adi Shankara and Bhagavat Ramanuja (perhaps Madwachariyar also, I am not sure) cite Krishna Yajur Veda to assert the validity of Manu Dharmashathra. They both cite Taitriya Samhita 2.2.10.2 which ends with the following:

किं च मनुर अवदत् तद भेषजं -- (whatever Manu said is medicine)

So, please note, the authority for Manu comes directly from the very source that the Brahmins consider aupuresheya and therefore unassailable.

 

[renuka]

So brahmins as a group had consciously chosen and retained many of these pointers as part of their culture and over generations these pointers as we see today are the unique tags to the genes of brahmins. Thus a vegetarian brahmin genes are fundamentally different from a non-vegetarian NB genes(even if the NB has chosen to become a vegan during his life time).

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

Just yesterday I was discussing about genes and behavioral patterns with a family member of mine but we could not come to a conclusion cos the random sampling pool of people were discussing about was just too small and a large scale study need to be done..further more environmental influence also plays a major role.

But I will have to agree with you with regards to the Brahmin vegetarian "gene" being different from a Non Brahmin vegetarian "gene".

To be specific..I choose to call it mindset but for all practical purposes here I would use the word "gene" too for discussion with you.

Ok..let me relate this story.

When I visited India as a girl aged 12..I saw a Brahmin person( he had all the identification of a Brahmin..tuft of hair..dressed as one and had a sacred thread etc).

I was at a religious place and he was walking about holding a japa mala in his hand and also a long stick on the other hand.

Then he was reciting some mantras and doing japa while walking.

Suddenly a dog ran happen to pass in front of him.

He hit the dog hard with the stick and sent the dog howling and continued his Japa.

I was shocked to see that (cos I was just a kid then..almost cried).

Ok that was my 1st experience in India.

Over the years when I stayed there as a student I realized that the average Brahmin looked down upon animals as dirty and contact with animals will render them impure and even closed their noses when a chicken walked pass them.

I realized that they are vegetarians mainly becos meat and Non veg items are considered impure and Non Sattvik and will render them impure.
Non Veg was considered non conducive for spiritual growth.

I was always under the impression that Brahmins never ate Non Veg becos out of love and compassion for animals but sadly not all Brahmins thought like this.

I was also surprised that most South Indian Brahmins loved to wear Silk Sarees.
I used to wonder when Silk is clearly Non Veg..how come they did not mind letting Non Veg drape their body?

Then when I returned to Malaysia..I happened to work as an intern under a Sri Lankan Tamilian Surgeon from here who was married to a TB lady doctor from TN India.

Once during our lunch break..this surgeon happen to notice me eating Veg food and he asked me if I was Veg.

I said yes...then he told me he is married to a TB and now his TB wife even eats Mc Donalds beef burger and loves it.

He told me if a Pure Veg TB could eat beef now..."if you hang around with me longer I could you make a NB like you start eating meat again"

To this I replied to him..."Dr..I had been Non Veg till the age of 19..I gave it up becos I had compassion for animals and did not feel right eating Non Veg anymore..hence I also do not wear silk and leather..for your wife vegetarianism could have been becos of her lifestyle...now her lifestyle has changed..so she has started eating non veg..but for me no matter how long I hang around with you..I wont eat non veg becos compassion does not change when lifestyle changes"


So you see Vaagmi sir..I do agree with you..the TB Veg gene is different from the NB Veg gene.

TB veg gene could be having a cultural component as your yourself have mentioned as a NB I can say that the NB veg gene could be having a compassion component.

 

[Nara]

.....So you see Vaagmi sir..I do agree with you..the TB Veg gene is different from the NB Veg gene.

TB veg gene could be having a cultural component as your yourself have mentioned as a NB I can say that the NB veg gene could be having a compassion component.

nice!!!

Sometime back I saw in an online magazine a recipe for Iyengar Chicken.

The reason given for refraining from meat is certainly not compassion for anything, meat has been labeled not-satvik by the Brahmins in the post Vedic period, probably to show they are one better than the vegetarians in the south. But, they still insist on the theoretical righteousness of sacrificing animals in yagams. Bhagavad Ramanuja extols the virtue of dispatching the Yaga Pasu to heaven when slaughtered in the course of a yagnam, see his Gita Bhashyam if you don't believe me. Also, for a Vedic Brahmanartham to be ritually complete at least a small portion of meat from ritually slaughtered animal must be served.

BTW, humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8 percent of their DNA. The fact is genes of B's differ more from other B's than NB's as a group. Palindrome can throw more light on this -- the mDNA of all of us, Brahmins to Dalits have so much in common that there is no doubt we all descend from same foremothers.

Thank you ...