Is the Community digging its own grave

[Subramanian Natarajan]

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????

well i am ready for it when am 18,21 is a relaxation for the times we live in

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Dear Subramaniam Ji,

I would slightly beg to differ here in opinion.

Vegetarianism/Teetotallers/Abstinence/Patience/Lifestyle is not Brahminical Ethics alone I feel..no doubt majority of Brahmins practice what you have mentioned but many Non Brahmins/Non Indians and Non Hindus too practice what you wrote.

Vegetarians are of many types:

1)Those who are vegetarians becos of lifestyle.

2)Those who are vegetarian on grounds of compassion.

3)Some Oriental races are Vegans..who do not even drink Milk.

Ok next... not drinking and not smoking are also seen in almost all races in the world.

Drinking and smoking is not the lifestyle of every Non Brahmin.


Abstinence...here I do not know what you mean as in Abstinence from what??

If you are talking about Pre Marital Sex then let me tell you that many Non Hindu communities of Asia too view Virginity as a virtue.

Patience..this is also seen in any race.

So you were just describing desirable qualities that can be present in anyone from any part of the world.

I have seen many Chinese Non Buddhist Traditional Vegans who follow the above lifestyle and never even heard of the word Brahmin.

I am talking about the TN context alone and i agree that these ethos are not exclusively brahminical,

But in the social scenario today,all those NB castes with similar ethos,the ones who figure in general category ll happily side themselves with the otehrs even though they treat the otehrs the same way the brahmins do.

perhaps it is a test of saying ZH,if u cant say Zh u r a tamil.

These concepts of abstinence have been tehre historically across all dharmic religions,my point was not about that but these perceived to be that of brahmins.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Sir, can I also ask a logical question? Which exam did you pass to achieve your grade?

My behaviour,my attitude,my heart.

Examination of reality.

 

[prasad1]

ok?

Sir,
Please read The post from the host and moderator.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

If there is one man who animates Brahmins like no other, it is EVR/தந்தை பெரியார். Yet, it is impossible to have an honest conversation about him with these Brahmins. The mere mention of his name is enough to rile up the pack to foam at the mouth with inane denunciations. Ironically, the comment by one the members of this pack that concerns barking dogs is apt for what they are themselves doing. When will it ever occur to these people that when a UN body heaps high praise on somebody, there must be something to it and deserves cool and rational examination? Well, when there is snow fall in Chennai I suppose.

yes Mr.Nara,i am up for a debate.

Come on.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Sir,
Please read The post from the host and moderator.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722

alright,lets give it up.Am still upset that i dont have a chance to shut some mouths.

 

[Nara]

Dear Sri Nara,

I also agree with your view. But there is an issue of time and place. There would be no purpose in pointing out the nuances and beauty of Arabic language to Srirangam priests.

Regards

If Srirangam priests make it their habit to assert Arabic is a lousy language then it is indeed the right time and place ....

 

[kunjuppu]

this was a letter in today's online hindu, in response to the university of madras rescinding its invitation to dr. amina wadud from giving her views on women's issues in islam...

without comment

It is no wonder there is no muslim who feel this is wrong and to voice out. How can they progress with out meaningful debates! We have seen many incidents where the mob mentality is leading the community. Are these protesters above the law?

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom,

You have hit the nail on the head...Besides this no pride in our culture....Self deprecating talk...Loss of hope...Less dialogue between parents & teen age children are all probable reasons for this

Dear Shri vgane,

I am of the opinion that "our culture" is a vague term if it is applied to all kinds/types of brahmins all over India, and is only less so if we apply it to tabras only. 'Culture' itself is capable of being understood in many ways and if we really look hard into the ways of life, beliefs & superstitions, rites and customs and the most important in today's circumstances - the mother-in-law—daughter-in-law relationship, I find that there are quite pronounced differences between the tabras of, say, Tirunelveli, Thanjavur, Kovai, Palghat, the rest of Kerala, etc. Such basic 'cultural' differences do get ironed out to certain extent in our first exodus community in Mumbai, Delhi etc., but they still have separate assocations (wherever possible), eating messes (as in Matunga), temples, etc. All these are nothing but standing reminders of the truth that within this tabra fold, there exist many diverse cultural lines. I have not touched upon the smartha, vaishnava, thenkalai & vadakali etc., differences here because these are schisma accepted world-wide and do stare at us from every nook & corner of brahmin society.

Each one of us is proud of one's own kind of tabra culture but that does not automatically translate or transform itself to a combined brahmin culture.

Another curious aspect that I have observed during the last three years or so, is this non-clarity about who is the rightful legal heir to this sanatana dharma or brahmin culture. All available scriptures tell us very clearly that the ideas of chAturvarNyam, the four defined castes, the inhuman treatment meted out to the lowest castes in the hindu milieu, etc., are an inextricably integral part of our scriptures; but when we discuss this particular question, it is always found that there is one very vociferous opinion group which proclaims that all such caste-based atrocious behaviour has always been the monopoly of the higher NB castes and not that of the brahmins. For a dispassionate student like myself, a doubt arises, therefore, as to whether it is not these higher NB castes who are the joint if not the sole inheritors of the sanatanadharma, and not the brahmins themselves?

If viewed from such a perspective, you will see that we brahmins have no real reason to be proud of "our culture" in this manner also.

We now come to self-deprecation. Almost all honourable members (except those who hold a brief for that Mr. Unmentionable, affirm that brahmins as we are, we have to be sAtvik in temperament and one of the characteristics of a true brahmin is held to be not speaking untruth. (The legend of Satyakama jAbAla, to which a reference was made in one of the posts under this thread highlights this point.) I feel that if we as brahmins are avowed to speak out truth as perceived by the cognitive abilities of each one of us, it will definitely happen that some unpleasant truths do come out and these truths may appear as self-deprecating if viewed from the perspectives of a political association. As true tabras it is our foremost duty to stick with the truth and not label it as self-deprecation when such truth becomes unpalatable.

Loss of hope : It is not clear what type of hope you refer to. I maintain that brahmins as also tabras have no cause for loss of hope in regard to their material well-being in the present or the near future. We tabras, as a class, are experts in swimming with the current and so we will adapt to any extent of changes in religion, social mores, work norms, everything but will ensure financial survival. What may be lost in the midst of all these efforts is the original way of life of our forefathers of, say, 3 or 4 generations ago. (There was an objection when I wrote this once earlier, saying that we may not know how people lived 4 generations ago, but let me say now that the brahminic daily routine with minutest details are available for reference in some "nithyahnika" texts by reputed sastrigals.)

Less dialogue between parents & teen age children : You see, I am an old man. My sons have themselves become middle-aged. I think I used to have adequate interaction with my sons when they were young, but it was very difficult to convince them about many of our brahmin customs, beliefs, rituals, etc., because all these call for unquestioning belief as the sine qua non. They have now settled in foreign countries but I can't say that they are following the tabra ways of life. But I think they do follow some basic principles which will make them good citizens of their adopted countries.
Today's parents I find are very different. Their outlook on life, plans for their children's future, priorities, value systems, etc., have all changed a lot. Money and what money-can-buy are the most important things for both parents and children; the western model of life is their goal and that is one reason why many tabra girls will not mind marrying IC/IR if they will get to settle in US or UK as a result thereof. I am not sure whether there is less dialogue between parents & teen age children today, (as compared to my times as a father), but the "brahmin values, etc.," will not obviously form any significant part of such dialogue because those children will most probably go abraod and live in a very different social set-up where the word "brahmin" may have no relevance at all except as "boston brahmins"

 

[sangom]

this was a letter in today's online hindu, in response to the university of madras rescinding its invitation to dr. amina wadud from giving her views on women's issues in islam...

without comment

It is no wonder there is no muslim who feel this is wrong and to voice out. How can they progress with out meaningful debates! We have seen many incidents where the mob mentality is leading the community. Are these protesters above the law?

I think the Muslim community is guided on the right tracks (probably by their creator god Allah). It is the males of the non-muslim masses who think that "progress" means pleading for women to rule over and subjugate men. In this context it is better that all people carefully view and understand the video here.

 

[sangom]

Caste system invaded other religions too might be more accurate.

No doubt the Dalit tag still stays on even after conversion into other religions but at if I am not wrong it is the Dalit Hindu that gets the F's from the upper castes.

Once a Dalit is a Muslim or Christian..the upper caste Hindus do not resort to violence against the Christian/Muslim Dalits anymore from what I know off cos then it becomes a religious matter and not a caste matter anymore.

Going by this..even though conversion does not remove the Dalit tag but at least by conversion a Dalit may be able to be alive and not targeted by violence by the upper caste Hindus.

So going by that..it is better if Dalits embrace Buddhism as their religion cos Buddhism is almost Advaita sans the Vedapramanyam.

Christianity and Islam are established communities in India with financial, political and all other forms of 'clout'. If any NB hindu caste people try to make any mischief there even the GOI and state governments will come double quick and quell the mischief-mongers right away. This fear is what works, at least in today's India.

In both islam and christian societies, the dalit converts are labeled variously and ostracized, but in their places of prayer, I think there is not much of ostracization; among christians, I think some kind of ostracization in churches has crept in by now, very slyly. Therefore, the best bet for a dalit today is to become a muslim. The so-called hindutva parties and the brahmins who claim that they did no harm to the dalits should make use of this opportunity to go to the protection of the dalits even at the cost of their lives, so that the dalit population will be won back into the hindu fold. But will these two groups ever do that?, I doubt.

Buddhist groups are not at all safe for dalits.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

re #434 i could not but help relishing a chuckle or two..

obviously your previous posting in this regard was read by some as a lament for a lost cause..now that you have clarified your stand, wonder if milk is churning in a few stomachs !! eh!!

excellent review of situations..as always. congrats.

 

[Nara]

....., but the only enemy which can put a stop to that "digvijayam" is only the "gene pool" business; our girls should not become carriers of non-brahmin genes and more pointedly, the shudra and panchama genes. So, if you or Nara or anyone else has daughters, be careful.

Indeed you have hit the nail on its head, it is the desire for caste purity that drives the aversion for IC/IR marriages, not preserving the "culture". Their culture can be preserved without insisting on caste purity. But this simple concept cannot make its way to the cerebral cortex if it is dysfunctional enough to find it rational that to be in favor of girls having the freedom to marry IC/IR is the same as disallowing the freedom to marry SC/SR. My daughter is a free woman, she will marry whoever she pleases and that is, and has to be as well, just fine with me even if it is to another woman -- my love for her is unconditional and I will love whomsoever she loves.

<edited. kindly refrain from posting about the forbidden topic (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722) There is absolutely no need to keep going back to it when it has been clearly asked not to do so. - praveen>

regards ...

 

[Nara]

....<edited. kindly refrain from posting about the forbidden topic (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722) There is absolutely no need to keep going back to it when it has been clearly asked not to do so. - praveen>
.

Praveen, please note, I did not go anywhere near what you forbade. I did not say anything "for" or "against" the person or the views of the forbidden person --which is what you said was forbidden. My comment was only about having an honest conversion about the forbidden person. The reason I dared to make this comment was because you did not edit any of the other meta-discussion posts made by several other people.

 

[praveen]

Praveen, please note, I did not go anywhere near what you forbade. I did not say anything "for" or "against" the person or the views of the forbidden person --which is what you said was forbidden. My comment was only about having an honest conversion about the forbidden person. The reason I dared to make this comment was because you did not edit any of the other meta-discussion posts made by several other people.

Replied in private.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Christianity and Islam are established communities in India with financial, political and all other forms of 'clout'. If any NB hindu caste people try to make any mischief there even the GOI and state governments will come double quick and quell the mischief-mongers right away. This fear is what works, at least in today's India.

Perhaps correct. If one belongs to a group that has political clout, one is protected. Otherwise not. In the case of hindu middle castes vs hindu dalits, the former has more clout. However minorities as a group or even as individual religious groups command a bigger clout than the hindu middle castes.

The so-called hindutva parties and the brahmins who claim that they did no harm to the dalits should make use of this opportunity to go to the protection of the dalits even at the cost of their lives, so that the dalit population will be won back into the hindu fold. But will these two groups ever do that?, I doubt.

Not sure why hindutva parties and brahmins are clubbed together. In any case, I am afraid I can't follow the logic here. Why would they protect the dalits that too at the cost of their lives, if they believe they did no harm to the dalits. Nevertheless, I do not think people who converted will return to the hindu fold what with all the exclusive secular priveleges available to them.

 

[renuka]

. Therefore, the best bet for a dalit today is to become a muslim.

I think I will have to agree with you here.

 

[Vaagmi]

Nara in438:

Indeed you have hit the nail on its head, it is the desire for caste purity that drives the aversion for IC/IR marriages, not preserving the "culture". Their culture can be preserved without insisting on caste purity. But this simple concept cannot make its way to the cerebral cortex if it is dysfunctional enough to find it rational that to be in favor of girls having the freedom to marry IC/IR is the same as disallowing the freedom to marry SC/SR. My daughter is a free woman, she will marry whoever she pleases and that is, and has to be as well, just fine with me even if it is to another woman -- my love for her is unconditional and I will love whomsoever she loves.

Dear Mr. Nara,

Left to me I would have preferred to have the edited sentences of you here in the forum visible for every one. Members here are not children. They would have had an opportunity to judge your arguments. But I understand, Mr. Praveen, the owner of this forum has intervened and he has his rights. Leaving it at that, I would like to deal with your unedited part of the post as quoted above because you have tried to make fun of me there.

1. If we do not bother about the culture/vlues what else is there in the caste to preserve. What other tangible thing is there? Is this not a play of words that you are indulging in? People have an aversion for IC/IR marriages because they are not sure of the outcome of the cocktail making of genes that happens in the IC/IR marriages. They are rather scared of it. So it is their desire for retaining the ‘caste purity’-as you call it-fully knowing that caste basically comprises only culture and values. How do you preserve the individual culture in a cocktail of cultures?

2.You are making herculean efforts to trash, mock at and trivialize what I said about freedom to marry IC/IR. Now one last time I repeat the argument in as simple a way as is possible.

3. This is what I wrote in reply to Mr. Sangom’s post and it is from here that our arguments began:

“Let us for a moment come to an understanding on your terms. OK. IC marriages are the panacea. We are hypocritical in our belief. So shall we do something in the interest of the Brahmin community? We can all discourage our girls from marrying boys from the Brahmin community. We will all actively look for boys from other castes and religions only. Right from the young age of 6 when the girl child starts attending schools, we will indoctrinate the child about the disadvantages in marrying within the community. We can even choose the community from which the child should choose her husband. There will be no need for any rebellion. We can dispense with our misplaced value system too. We can even compel/convince our religious heads (Sringeri, Kanchi, Ahobhilam etc., matoms) to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom. We do not want to be fools. Do you think after this every thing will be hunky and dory?”

4. Further, I presume this:

You agree that you have said IC/IR marriages are desirable and are preferable to SC/SR marriages. You have sung the glory of IC marriages in several of your posts and when I went into the archives here I found you have even interpreted a Divya Prabhantham pasuram to say that the Alwars were in favour of IC marriages. So I am sure you will not renounce your position of being a champion of IC/IR marriages now.

5. Now I state my case:

In majority of Tabra families even today, the large number of marriages are (1) just arranged or (2)arranged and understood. Of course there are (3)love marriages also (1)Just arranged marriages are those which are determined by parents. The boy and girl, after marrying, start living together and start understanding/loving or tolerating each other. (2)Arranged and understood marriages are those in which again the parents decide and the engagement ceremony takes place. Afterwards the girl and boy start dating and going out. If they are able to get along to a satisfactory level of understanding the marriage takes place or else the engagement itself is treated as cancelled. (3)The love marriages are just that. The boy and girl meet, fall in love and marry with or without parents’ concent. The parents have no role in this. They are in the peripheryor in the dark until the time of marriage. While many tabra marriages fall in the category 1 and 2 there are a few also in the category 3. All IC/IR marriages fall in category 3 with a rare exception at the glitterati level of the population (where the factors that go into the equation are entirely different) While whatever I have said here is about the tabra population it remarkably remains the same for other castes too.

Now let us talk about the majority of the marriages which fall in the category 1 and 2 . Here parents play a key role. Out of their love and affection and concern for the future of their children, they carefully search for a suitable match for their son/daughter. They think they know their son/daughter well and so look for a “suitable” match. They do not recommend but strongly plead with their son/daughter in favour their selection and insist on the marriage. In tabra households this is considered a parental duty. The parents who do this are all not fools. They know what is good for their children and so insist on that for their children.

6. Now the main drama.

We have a sample tabra parent who, because of his maturity, intellect, experience, knowledge, broad outlook and immense love for humanity believes that IC/IR marriages are really great. He preaches what he believes to be good. So he comes to the internet forum here and strongly recommends IC/IR marriages to the tabra community because he claims he belongs to the tabra community. He marshalls all his intellectual resources in this and even interprets ancient religious literature (like திருமாலை by தொண்டரடிப்பொடி ஆழ்வார்)in a particular way to support his views and aggressively promotes the idea. Impressed by his presentation, there are many who applaud and would like to follow his advice. But being what they are i.e. tabras, they do not jump into anything impulsively. One upstart from the crowd stands up and asks whether this particular preaching parent has given any of his children into a IC/IR marriage. He also asks whether he has plans to push this IC/IR marriage idea to his grand children by dinning it into their ears from impressible childhood itself so that they don’t deviate from the path towards IC/IR marriages. He also asks him whether he has any target Race or Caste for his grandchildren so that they selectively mingle with such Rs or Cs only which will facilitate better understanding among the boys and girls and end up in that glorious IC/IR marriage when the time comes. To make it simple and short we can say the upstart from the crowd was asking our ideal parent whether he is doing his parental duty himself to discourage SR/SC marriages, dissuade his grand children from such marriages as they are not as good as the IC/IR marriages. Or whether he is just prescribing it to only others in the community. . He demands of the preacher to clarify whether IC/IR marriage is just as good or as bad as an SC/SR marriage. He further wonders if that is the case then is there really anything to crow about in IC/IR marriages.


8. The intelligent sample parent is unable to think of a situation in which his childen/grand children marrying IC/IR matches as a default case, replies evasively saying he believes in full freedom for his children and so it is his children who would choose the matches. He would go with them in their decision. The upstart from the crowd is not ready to take this for a reply. He says the issue here is not love marriage Vs arranged marriages but IC/IR marriages Vs. SR/SC marriages. He accuses the intelligent parent with an attempt to side track the issue
The intelligent parent turns livid with fury and says “a simple concept like this cannot make its way to the cerebral cortex if it is dysfunctional enough to find it rational that to be in favor of girls having the freedom to marry IC/IR is the same as disallowing the freedom to marry SC/SR.”

9. The upstart thinks he should reply in the same language. He writes down this: “Yes, when your cerebrum, cerebellum, medulla oblongata and spinal chord are all filled with only prejudices and nothing else there will be total confusion between what is rational and irrational and the very ability to distinguish issues in their true nature will be severely curtailed”. But he decides to just drop it from the conversation because abusing happens to be the prerogative of intellectuals and not newbies and upstarts.

10. Mr. Nara, the issue here is not love marriages versus arranged marriages. It is IC/IR marriages versus SR/SC marriages. You are trying to cleverly convert the discussion into a love marriage Vs arranged marriages while I am demanding of you to keep the discussion within the boundaries of pros and cons of IR/IC marriages. Put downs are not the prerogative of you alone. I can do that much better than you. But I am a tabra without any guilt and I won’t do that. Thanks.

 

[palindrome]

vgane, I understand your angst, but there is no call for using the phrases I have highlighted above. As I said earlier, criticisms of Brahminism and Brahminist behavior is not Brahmin bashing.


Now, coming to your OP, if I may summarize your argument:

• the problem is Brahmin "community" is going extinct
• the cause for this problem is IC/IR marriages
• Brahmin "community" must find a way to prevent IC/IR marriages

Please see my post #24 -- for the reasons why preventing IC/IR is not all that practical. Let me also note that your suggestions made in response in post #25 are no more practical.

I submit to you, under the present socio-economic conditions in Tamil Nadu, there is simply no practical way to slow down the rate of IC/IR, let alone eliminate them. Given this reality, you and others who think like you need to think about what constitutes "traditional Brahminical way and the attendant cultural moorings". You have stated in post #25 that you "are not talking of caste purity". If this is so, my humble suggestion is, make a list of what you think are important Brahminical cultural ways, things that are important. Since I was raised in a Brahmin family I think I can start you off with the following:

• Birth and death rituals
• Upanayanam and a little bit of sandhyavandhanam as convenient
• Shloka recital in the evening, Vishnu Sahasranamam etc.
• May be a little Veda -- Rudram, Chamakam, Purusha Suktham, may be Taitreyam
• Carnatic music and Bharatha natyam
• Food habits

I think you can further expand on this rudimentary list. Vaagmi had the right idea, pick and choose what makes sense (though he seems to walk back from this ).

Raise the children along these principles, whether they are born out of IC/IR or SC/SR. The threat of your "community digging its own grave" comes not from IC/IR alone but also SC/SR parents not caring about the above list.

So, my humble suggestion is, if the children wish to have IC/IR, don't oppose it, don't threaten them with dire consequences, accept them with love. Get involved in their lives. Then, when time comes, teach your grandkids to follow the Brahminical ways listed above. Don't you think this is way more practical than trying to send the children to Brahmin-certified schools etc.

Please think about it, there is practically no downside, IC/IR is becoming more and more common as you have noted in your OP. Therefore there is no stigma anymore. Further, your children will be grateful that you have accepted their choice of IC/IR with love, and will be happy that you are involved in their lives, which will give you the opportunity to pass on what you see are important Brahminical ways and cultural moorings to the next generation. In as much as you care for these and not for caste purity there must be no objections.

Thank you ...

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

To everyone, want to say this -- please welcome anyone interested in your way of life, in terms of culture, rituals, food, etc (let it not be restricted to just IC/IR marriages).

To those who think a brahmin gene pool is exclusive, i'd say, your narrow outlook will not help your lot. Exclusivity will make you extinct.

 

[renuka]

A union between a horse and a donkey produces a mule..which is sterile and unable to reproduce becos it is an inter species union.

I am a product of an intercaste marriage that too the pratiloma kind.

I got married and also had a child.

Ok now back to the point...what I want to say is if IC marriage is NOT sanctioned by God..all intercaste marriage children would have been like sterile Mules unable to have progeny!LOL

 

[tks]

In Post #412 my main point of including that video is to associate fertility rate of TB (in terms of however way it is defined) with predictions of what the likely outcome of this community is going to be in 50 to 100 years.

My own experience growing up in Delhi and visiting grand parents / uncles / aunts in deep south during summer months as a child did not involve witnessing any discriminatory behaviour as experienced by few people here. I do not remember any such instances during my visits and at our own home we probably had our own brand of TB culture which did not involve any put downs of anyone. Perhaps we were just Madrasis in Delhi and that was our brand identity.

Actually marriage when girls were about 16 was the norm in prior generation in my family and even in wife's family. The average fertility rate was about 5 or 8 from my minimal sample size.

In my own generation the marriage age went up to about 24 to 27 and most people had one to three children. Now a days many girls marry closer to 27 to 29 with rare few having more than two children.

With many confused TBs about their identity (mirroring the statistics of confused Hindus), marriages outside of TB which may include those from other states of India, migrants to other countries who are further confused by majority culture of their adopted country, and with many TB boys unable to find proper girls (regardless of the reasons) the average fertility rate of those who think they are TB today is probably close to 1.5 in my estimation.

There is no evidence that one can foresee today that this trend is going to reverse and hence TB culture as we speak of today will cease to exist in 50+ years. This appears to be a mathematical certainty.

Timeless values and principles by their very definition will continue to exist and new subcultures will be formed that will explicitly practice these values.

New forms of prejudices will always emerge since human beings have this propensity to abuse their privileged position. Today the abuses and prejudices are based on money power, political power, intellectual power and just sheer physical power to name a few.

There will always be those - like today - who will propagate their prejudices in action but present themselves as the most liberal minded persons. In its benign form there will be new 'Eric Berne like Games' that these people will continue to play.

Given all this likely trends what do we do?

My suggestion is that we strive to educate ourselves and then educate our children. If a given culture truly espouses timeless values we need to be able to articulate those with clarity and using logic. Children will adopt the culture and values and even consider them when they select their spouse because they have a conviction based on understanding.

Culture will include daily practices, how a special day is observed, type of food that is prepared and consumed and attitudes towards others. Early marriages will be good if furthering one's education by a girl is not viewed a limitation by getting married early.

If a person marries a pseudo TB (name sake by birth, confused in terms of understanding, no specific core values except may be some externally focused symbolisms) the so called TB culture will die within one generation. If a person marries in a IC situation and the person they marry choose to embrace the timeless values due to their understanding (again unlikely but possible) that is likely to produce positive outcome for the person getting married.

Conversion to Christianity is happening at an alarming rate in India. "Unite and multiply" approach of Muslims is expanding the Islamic influence in India and around the world.

With large number of confused TBs, and hypocritical TBs trying to copy the west today, the most likely outcome is that our great-great- grand children (if the lineage even continues) will be Muslims, Christians, and own brand of religious types ...

World with natural laws at its core in operation will destroy all fake cultures that are not based on timeless principles. This includes destruction of even the biblical religions but it may take more like 1000 years in my view.

The teachings of our Upanishads and other key scriptures (e.g., Patanjali's work, B. Gita to name a few) embrace universal & timeless knowledge. With many fake TBs, confused TBs, and hypocritical TBs it is hard to find right sources of information.

My suggestion is to make an effort and understand how our practices embrace the principles (recognizing that many NBs embrace the same practices also). Using the knowledge gained we have to teach our children.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

I appreciate the language, style and the persuasiveness in your abovesaid post and so I have recorded a "like", although our views on this topic are different. I am taking this opportunity to clearly spell out those differences, to the best of my ability.

< snip >

3. This is what I wrote in reply to Mr. Sangom’s post and it is from here that our arguments began:

“Let us for a moment come to an understanding on your terms. OK. IC marriages are the panacea. We are hypocritical in our belief. So shall we do something in the interest of the Brahmin community? We can all discourage our girls from marrying boys from the Brahmin community. We will all actively look for boys from other castes and religions only. Right from the young age of 6 when the girl child starts attending schools, we will indoctrinate the child about the disadvantages in marrying within the community. We can even choose the community from which the child should choose her husband. There will be no need for any rebellion. We can dispense with our misplaced value system too. We can even compel/convince our religious heads (Sringeri, Kanchi, Ahobhilam etc., matoms) to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom. We do not want to be fools. Do you think after this every thing will be hunky and dory?”

I believe this is the basic point of divergence between you and me. What I said, or, rather tried to say, was that IC/IR marriages are some things which cannot be wished away by us today, and so perhaps it is better for us not to oppose such IC/IR marriages, as a matter of principle but to accept them wherever these happen. Since you seem to be going through the archives, you will find that about 2 or 3 years ago, I was also not in favour of IC/IR marriages. But happenings in the tabra community here in Kerala and the necessity felt in some special cases to have arranged IC marriages, made me aware of the fast-changing societal realities and I have accordingly changed my viewpoint also. Inflexibility and inability to adapt in such matters will only make us (old people) more irrelevant to the society.

To buttress my point, I did not mean, nor do I hold even now that IC/IR marriages are the panacea for anything nor that "We can all discourage our girls from marrying boys from the Brahmin community. We will all actively look for boys from other castes and religions only. Right from the young age of 6 when the girl child starts attending schools, we will indoctrinate the child about the disadvantages in marrying within the community. We can even choose the community from which the child should choose her husband. There will be no need for any rebellion. We can dispense with our misplaced value system too. We can even compel/convince our religious heads (Sringeri, Kanchi, Ahobhilam etc., matoms) to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom." This quoted portion was your hyper-reaction to some measured difference from your pov and it went to reveal how opinionated you are, that was all.

4. Further, I presume this:

You agree that you have said IC/IR marriages are desirable and are preferable to SC/SR marriages.

As stated earlier IC/IR marriages are not undesirable under certain circumstances. During the last few years I have come to know of half a dozen marriages of tabra boys who just could not get any tabra/any other brahmin girl till they were 40+ or 50+, and their elders (brothers, chithappa, etc.,) took the lead to negotiate their marriage with NB brides from nair, teluguchetty, goldsmith, etc., communities. One or two of such brides have started their family life with their brahmin husbands in the very agraharams of Trivandrum. There was one case in which a tabra girl loved a very rich Nadar boy settled in S'pore; the girl's father was against it but the daughter was obstinate and declared that she would remain unmarried till his death and then marry that Nadar boy, if it came to that. The father was heart broken and died of kidney failure and the girl, true to her words, has recently married that boy with the blessings of her mother and all elders and possibly without a brahmin priest. (I don't know because it was done in TN some place.) That is why I once again say that accepting IC or even IR marriages may be unavoidable in our tabra community. But this does not immediately mean the other extreme viz., inter-brahmin marriage is evil and is to be prohibited.

I hope you are intelligent enough to understand the profound difference.

5. Now I state my case:

In majority of Tabra families even today, the large number of marriages are (1) just arranged or (2)arranged and understood. Of course there are (3)love marriages also (1)Just arranged marriages are those which are determined by parents. The boy and girl, after marrying, start living together and start understanding/loving or tolerating each other. (2)Arranged and understood marriages are those in which again the parents decide and the engagement ceremony takes place. Afterwards the girl and boy start dating and going out. If they are able to get along to a satisfactory level of understanding the marriage takes place or else the engagement itself is treated as cancelled. (3)The love marriages are just that. The boy and girl meet, fall in love and marry with or without parents’ concent. The parents have no role in this. They are in the peripheryor in the dark until the time of marriage. While many tabra marriages fall in the category 1 and 2 there are a few also in the category 3. All IC/IR marriages fall in category 3 with a rare exception at the glitterati level of the population (where the factors that go into the equation are entirely different) While whatever I have said here is about the tabra population it remarkably remains the same for other castes too.

Now let us talk about the majority of the marriages which fall in the category 1 and 2 . Here parents play a key role. Out of their love and affection and concern for the future of their children, they carefully search for a suitable match for their son/daughter. They think they know their son/daughter well and so look for a “suitable” match. They do not recommend but strongly plead with their son/daughter in favour their selection and insist on the marriage. In tabra households this is considered a parental duty. The parents who do this are all not fools. They know what is good for their children and so insist on that for their children.

By and large, the scenario you give is correct, except that some extreme cases of tabra boys not getting any tabra or any other brahmin girl have also arisen during the last few years in Kerala and as described above by me, the elders themselves have had to go in for negotiated marriages with girls from NB communities. To this extent society is changing and it is upto each one of us to decide whether we will like to remain rock-like in our confirmed views or go along with the changes.

 

[Nara]

Dear Vaagmi, You are still misstating what I have been saying. All this started with the OP lamenting IC/IR, to which some of us responded that the best thing to do is to accept them as love for children is more important than caste purity. I also explained how the so called Brahmin culture can be sustained even in those cases. This is at the individual level.

When we try to look at this IC/IR issue from a broader perspective I do think caste and religion should not be an issue, whether it is love marriage or arranged marriage. This I have already stated in more detail in one of my earlier posts.

I just don't know how much more clearly I can state my views. If you continue to insist my position is equal to opposing SC/SR marriages -- love marriage or arranged marriage -- then there is a case to be made that you have a problem with simple logic.

As for Thirumalai verses, the acharyas who wrote the commentaries diluted Azhavar's words and the acharya lineage coming down to this day have completely ignored even this diluted interpretation. My arguments are in the archives. If you have anything new to add I am willing to take a look.

Thanks ....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This article (linked below) might bring a smile to resident brabas, but I am writing this here to alert the rest of us of the kind of hatemongering to which the brahmins are subjected.

The modus operandi is eerily similar to that of the brabas who often make the same pretentious argument that they are against brahminism and not brahmins!

???????????????, ????????????

A short excerpt:

பிராமணத்துவம் (இந்துத்துவம்), அணுத்துவம் – விவரணம்

அண்மையில் சில தொலைக்காட்சிச் செவ்விகளில் பங்கேற்கும்போது, என்னோடு விவாதங்களில் பங்கேற்ற சில அணு விஞ்ஞானிகள் ஒருசில கருத்துக்களை முன் வைத்தார்கள். விஞ்ஞானிகள் நல்லவர்கள், சிறந்தவர்கள், உயர்ந்தவர்கள்; நல்லதைத்தான் செய்வார்கள்; விஞ்ஞானிகளை நம்ப வேண்டும், மதிக்க வேண்டும்; அவர்கள் சொல்படி கேட்க வேண்டும்; அவர்களை கேள்வி கேட்கக் கூடாது என்ற தொனியில் பேசினர். விவாதத்தில் பங்கேற்று அப்படிப் பேசிய விஞ்ஞானிகள் பெரும்பாலானோர் பிராமண சமூகத்தைச் சார்ந்தவர்கள் என்பதையும், பிராமணரல்லாத “உலகப் புகழ்” விஞ்ஞானிகளும், அவர்களின் “அறிவியல் ஆலோசகர்களும்”கூட இதே ரீதியில் பேசுவதையும் நீங்கள் கவனித்திருப்பீர்கள்.

விஞ்ஞானிகள் மட்டும்தான் அனைத்தும் அறிவர், நாங்கள் எல்லாம் முட்டாள்கள் என்று ஏற்றுக்கொண்டு, விலகி நின்று வேடிக்கைப் பார்ப்பதற்கு இது ஒன்றும் பதினாறாம் நூற்றாண்டு அல்ல. இது இருபத்தொன்றாம் நூற்றாண்டு; இப்போது எல்லோருக்கும் கல்வியும், அறிவும், சிந்திக்கும் திறனும், உரிமையும் இருக்கிறது என்று ஒரு விவாதத்தில் நான் பதில் சொன்னேன். இம்மாதிரியான விழிப்புணர்வு கொண்ட, விவேகம் பெற்ற, சமத்துவ, சமதர்ம சமுதாயம் வீறுகொண்டெழ வேண்டும் என்பதுதான் முற்போக்குச் சிந்தனை கொண்டோர் அனைவரின் தாகம், கனவு, ஆசை! இந்த சமூக நீதிக்கான இயக்கத்தை முறியடிக்க, மக்களைத் தொடர்ந்து அடிமைப்படுத்தி வைத்திருக்க, அறிவியல், எரிசக்தி, வளர்ச்சி, முன்னேற்றம் என்ற பெயர்களில் “பழைய பிராமணத்துவ கள் புதிய அணுத்துவ மொந்தையில்” பரிமாறப்படுகிறது என்று உறுதியாய் நினைக்கிறேன். நேரடியாக, சுருக்கமாகச் சொல்வதென்றால், பிராமணத்துவம் (Brahmanism) அணுத்துவம் (Nuclearism) இரண்டும் ஒன்று சேர்ந்து பிராமணுத்துவம் (Brahmanuclearism) என்ற புதிய பெயரில், புத்துருவில் வருகிறது என்பது எனது வாதம். பிராமணத்துவம், அணுத்துவம் எனும் இரண்டு சித்தாந்தங்களுக்குமே மிக நெருக்கமான தத்துவார்த்தத் தொடர்பும், வரலாற்றுப் பின்னணியும், யதார்த்த சமூக-பொருளாதார-அரசியல்-கலாச்சார இணக்கமும் இருப்பதைக் காண முடியும்.

 

[kunjuppu]

This article (linked below) might bring a smile to resident brabas, but I am writing this here to alert the rest of us of the kind of hatemongering to which the brahmins are subjected.

The modus operandi is eerily similar to that of the brabas who often make the same pretentious argument that they are against brahminism and not brahmins!

???????????????, ????????????

A short excerpt:

yes. i was surprised udayakumar going crazy and frothing out rubbish like this.

this article came in keetru the online magazine, and i gave udayakumar 100 times more credit before i read this. he should know better, tellingly the comments feedback in keetru reminded him that there are no brahmins in the usa uk japan etc and even in pakistan.

also he was reminded that several brahmins supported anti nuclear stuff. maybe if you scratch NB anti brahmins comes to the fore? probably udayakumar is running out of arguements support and money.. too bad..i took him for something more.
stupid of udayakumar.