Is the Community digging its own grave

[prasad1]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Mr. Nara and Mr. K,

Both of you are ardent fan of that son XX of XXXXX, you know it and we know it.
The rest of the community Dislikes him, and some despise him.
What please do you get by thumbing your nose at the majority?
Why do you keep bringing him up? Let him XXX where ever he ended up.
If you have nothing to say to uplift the community, or improve our lives, why say it just to poke the majority in the eye. Why can you not let the sleeping dog alone. You do not have to kick it.

Mr. K,
I expected you to not fan the flame of hatred.

Mr. Nara,
I did not want to address you as we never see eye-to-eye on any issues. You are a good writer and enjoy your writing style. But you are like Rush Limbaugh, a flame thrower. More like like an anarchist, you set fire and enjoy the misery caused by the fire. So anything I say is not going to change you.

 

[praveen]

In the broader interest of the brahmin community, any topics related to EVR (for or against) will be closed/deleted.

So, any replies after this that talks about EVR - for or against - will be edited or removed (as seen fit).

Whatever EVR did has been talked about many times here and in various other places. So we really do not want another set of discussions on him.

 

[kunjuppu]

In the broader interest of the brahmin community, any topics related to EVR (for or against) will be closed/deleted.

So, any replies after this that talks about EVR - for or against - will be edited or removed (as seen fit).

Whatever EVR did has been talked about many times here and in various other places. So we really do not want another set of discussions on him.

agree 100%

 

[Nara]

<edited> ref to my post above. http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

i think you are going to get deleted per praveen edict.

let everyone move on. more important things are happening.

telengana for one.

more fdi for another..all have more impact on india in the future.

and tamil nadu too... the tamil blog talk is whether tamil nadu will be split 3 ways or 2 ways...and where.

alagiri wants his own southern tamilnadu with madurai as capital. ramadoss wants a vanniar dominated north.

the gounders want a kongu nadu with kovai as the capital. the tiruppur money, cowed down by the deprival of electricity to the knitting mills, is betting on kongu nadu, as they feel they can support power plants with their revenue generation alone. and no one to question their continued destruction of ground water through chemical effluents

all in all exciting times.

as long as these leaders can round up a few guys to commit suicides and burn 100 buses, another split will be on the table. and all these leaders need to do, is to visit sonia and pay homage to the congress party eh! the politics of the day, makes rules, which impacts perpetuity.

we are starting with another era, battle of plassey all over again, except instead of the british, it is now italians

more fdi means what i dont know. i thought we got all the fdi we needed, except we dont know how to use them properly. how can fdi resolve our basic issue re ineptitude and corruption? we all know tamil nadu needs more power, but nobody can agree on the rate to pay the generators. and electricity gets stolen and given free to certain folks like farmers...oh well!!

if the country is digging its own grave, i think by default, every community is participating in it. no?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Why is this special consideration to EVR? In this forum, hindu Gods such as Rama and Krishna are mocked. Hindu Acharyas are criticized. But only when EVR was criticized, his critiques are called hypocrites. Says much about EVR lackeys than anybody else.

 

[prasad1]

I think a simple decency is to honor the wishes of the Host, Mr. Praveen.
Let us redirect back to op. :focus:

 

[Nara]

Why is this special consideration to EVR? In this forum, hindu Gods such as Rama and Krishna are mocked. Hindu Acharyas are criticized. But only when EVR was criticized, his critiques are called hypocrites. Says much about EVR lackeys than anybody else.

I agree with this view, nobody should get any special consideration however hated or however revered. The only bounds that make sense is honesty and civility. But, I doubt there will be very many takers, there are many a sacred cow who are beyond the realm of rational criticism. Now that Praveen has spoken we have to move on, that is just the way it is.

Thank you ...

 

[biswa]

Born in a family gives one some rights and privileges. Like Prince charles - I am a prince now, hope to become the king of england and commonwealth and work my way upwards.

mukesh ambanis's sons will inherit his empire whether they make the grades or not.

Rupert murdoch has started the process of divorcing his young wife. One report said that cracks appeared when he said in a tv show that his daughters by the current wife will get only monetary compensation and will not get any voting rights in his media empire. Mrs. murdoch has even changed her lawyer who prepared the prenuptial contract. Both have engaged poerful lawyers and divorce is expected to be messy.

Just ramblings on inherited status and acquired grades.

Good ramblings. I think the problem with inherited status and money is that they often produce completely useless people like Prince Charles, Walton family heirs, James Murdoch and Siddhartha Mallya. I wish more billionaires took the Buffet and Gates pledge of donating half their wealth. When people view something as their "birth-right", that is where the problem starts.

 

[sarang]

Untouchability and dalits are an entirely different issue. Holding the brahmins responsible will not lead to any solution. It has to be understood and solved at every local village and community level. So called dalits who have done well in life, ex-president Narayanan down, there are millions, who must visit their home towns and engage the communities to patch up and work in consonance. Blaming castes, putting brahmins at the top of the list, will not do any good to the dalits or the cause. Politicians will always fan the flames and muddy the waters.

To start with, the government must stop using the word caste from their records, and change their policies and laws which discriminate citizens by reservation and caste certificates.

Finally, in the indian context today, dalits are in all religions.

 

[Vaagmi]

Post #408:

I agree with this view, nobody should get any special consideration however hated or however revered. The only bounds that make sense is honesty and civility. But, I doubt there will be very many takers, there are many a sacred cow who are beyond the realm of rational criticism. Now that Praveen has spoken we have to move on, that is just the way it is.

An excellent post about honesty, civility, sacred cows and rational criticism. As usual.

 

[tks]

Since this thread is about IC/IR marriages I thought I will share this youtube video.
I do not know how sound the analysis is or whatever its overall message is.

But the message about survival of a culture being tied to its fertility rate seem to make sense.

One obvious thing is certain - the world and its make up will be constantly changing. Hence there is no need to 'worry'

Today's culture will not remain same in the next 100 years - for any community.
.

I am not sure what the fertility rate of the so called TB is

Muslim Demographics - YouTube

 

[renuka]

Finally, in the indian context today, dalits are in all religions.

Caste system invaded other religions too might be more accurate.

No doubt the Dalit tag still stays on even after conversion into other religions but at if I am not wrong it is the Dalit Hindu that gets the F's from the upper castes.

Once a Dalit is a Muslim or Christian..the upper caste Hindus do not resort to violence against the Christian/Muslim Dalits anymore from what I know off cos then it becomes a religious matter and not a caste matter anymore.

Going by this..even though conversion does not remove the Dalit tag but at least by conversion a Dalit may be able to be alive and not targeted by violence by the upper caste Hindus.

So going by that..it is better if Dalits embrace Buddhism as their religion cos Buddhism is almost Advaita sans the Vedapramanyam.

 

[zebra16]

Good ramblings. I think the problem with inherited status and money is that they often produce completely useless people like Prince Charles, Walton family heirs, James Murdoch and Siddhartha Mallya. I wish more billionaires took the Buffet and Gates pledge of donating half their wealth. When people view something as their "birth-right", that is where the problem starts.

There is one category which is even worse. It is the "adoptees" of well-to-do couples. Two names immediately suggest to the mind, in Indian context. Vishwanath Pratap Singh and Jagdish Tytler.

 

[zebra16]

I agree with this view, nobody should get any special consideration however hated or however revered. The only bounds that make sense is honesty and civility. But, I doubt there will be very many takers, there are many a sacred cow who are beyond the realm of rational criticism. Now that Praveen has spoken we have to move on, that is just the way it is.

Thank you ...

Dear Sri Nara,

I also agree with your view. But there is an issue of time and place. There would be no purpose in pointing out the nuances and beauty of Arabic language to Srirangam priests.

Regards

 

[sarang]

As long as dalits think they are inferior and have any complex, they will only perpetuate their isolation.

Soon we can expect US and Canadian dalits to form their own pressure groups to fight their real or imaginary subjugation. Resident well wishers can be expected to take an active part on their behalf. They must issue a fatwa that their children and wards must marry only dalits; must not hide under the escape clause - they have the freedom to choose.

"The Dalit Solidarity Network UK (DSN UK) identifies persistent caste divisions in Britain; these derive from the strong religious and family affiliations of the great majority of South Asian Britons; one resident of the London suburb of Southall even says locals give directions to others’ houses according to people’s caste and not their names. The report also provides several examples of systematic and long-term caste-based harassment, including case-studies from the National Health Service and private-sector employment respectively, and cites a former mayor of Coventry as saying temples are segregated along caste lines — something which also occurs in purportedly caste-free British faiths such as Sikhism."

"Dalits, conservatively thought to number 400,000 among the U.K.’s South Asian population of about 3 million, form the majority of victims and suffer the worst discrimination. A 2010 report by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research provides detailed case-studies, some of which include refusals by public employees such as home carers and even a physiotherapist to touch people of lower castes whom they were supposed to bath, dress, or treat. Of course many organisations in the U.K., including temples and gurdwaras, and individuals explicitly reject caste distinctions, but the bitterness of victims is often intensified by official failures to understand the nature of the caste system or to act on complaints; some victims have cited caste prejudice even among those who are supposed to investigate complaints."

Caste out by the law - The Hindu

 

[renuka]

As long as dalits think they are inferior and have any complex, they will only perpetuate their isolation.

Soon we can expect US and Canadian dalits to form their own pressure groups to fight their real or imaginary subjugation. Resident well wishers can be expected to take an active part on their behalf. They must issue a fatwa that their children and wards must marry only dalits; must not hide under the escape clause - they have the freedom to choose.

Dear Sarangji,

I think these words above are yours...I did not find that in the article.

Nice to know about the terminology "imaginary subjugation".

In that case the some community complaining about the quota system treating them unfairly can be classified under "imaginary subjugation" too.

Problems are faced by every community..did you read the article fully where its states

A 2010 report by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research provides detailed case-studies, some of which include refusals by public employees such as home carers and even a physiotherapist to touch people of lower castes whom they were supposed to bath, dress, or treat.

I guess you need to re read the article.

BTW ....

Resident well wishers can be expected to take an active part on their behalf. They must issue a fatwa that their children and wards must marry only dalits; must not hide under the escape clause - they have the freedom to choose.

A person who does not believe in Varna system can marry any homosapien from any part of the world..be it Brahmin or Dalit or a Scandinavian or a Kalahari Bushmen...there is no need to hide under any clause when the whole world is your family.

 

[palindrome]

Dear palindrome,



I do not believe in the chronology of the vedas as arrived at by the western scholars. Kavasha was not belonging to any of the chathur varna. The meaning of these words"RshayOvai sarsvathyAm sathramAsatha/. thE kavasam Mylusham sOmAthanayanthAsyA: puthra:kithavO brAhmana:katham nO madhyE...... indicate that and that is enough for me. And that is exactly what I meant.

Sorry am traveling, hence the delayed response.

Kindly translate the above verse and explain why you think it means Kavasha was a panchama. In what way does it contradict his parentage from a brahmana father and shudra mother?

The saraswati here is the river saraswati. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse.The saraswati here is the river saraswati because the mantra says the river saraswathi did a circumambulation of kavasha- "parisArakam" is the word used there.. kavasa was accepted as Devarshi by the other rshis as said in the original verse. Not only that, they apologised to kavasa and requested him to be the chief priest with them in conducting the yagas. One who does not know the vedas never conducts the yagas in the position of a chief priest. And that , for me, settles the matter.

Yes, no personage less than sarasvati herself had to declare Kavasa guiltless. After Sarasvati declared Kavasa so, he was accepted by other priests. Now here comes the prob. The river saraswati enjoys an exalted position and is highly revered in the vedic samhitas and has hymns dedicated to her. Can a river come in person and declare the person's birth guiltless? Obviously not. Since Kavasa was a hymn-composer himself, he could make a place for himself, so it means a story was concocted to portray that since Saraswati declared him guiltless, he became an acceptable persona to the brahmana folks.

kakshivanthan was the son of usijai. My learned master told me that means he was a shudra.

On what basis does your master say Usija rishi was a shudra?

He is called a shudra repeatedly in the relevant veda mantras as "shudra thasmai", "shudranEnaiva" etc., Please carefully read it.

Please provide the full verses. We shall discuss this further.

He was indeed a shudra though a king.

How? Explain. Provide the full verse(s) which say(s) he was shudra.

He was not belonging to the chatur varnas either. There was no system of half brahmins.

How do you know he did not belong to the chaturvarnas? There were products of anuloma and pratiloma. They were not considered brahmins. The son of a brahmana father and shudra mother was a product of anuloma. Kindly explain if Anuloma products were considered brahmanas. If yes, why was Kavasa not considered a brahman Or why was he not acceptable to other priests? Why was Kavasa left to die of thirst by other priests?

The context gives scope for inferring that he was a shudra.

How?

Thank you. As this has become a protracted correspondence involving veda mantras and their meanings as understood by us, I am not interested in continuing this any further. Already Mr. Sangom is taking pot shots at me from the fence. If you think jAnasruthi was not a shudra, kakshivantan was not a shudra, kavashan was not a panchama etc. so be it. I go with my understanding and you go with your understanding of the mantras. bye.

You have every right not to continue any further. But you cannot claim what you do without any proof of any sort. Thankyou.

 

[renuka]

He was not belonging to the chatur varnas either. There was no system of half brahmins.

Then what about Veda Vyasa? Brahmin father Shudra Mother and considered a full fledged Brahmin.

 

[sangom]

nara,

i think you are going to get deleted per praveen edict.

let everyone move on. more important things are happening.

telengana for one.

more fdi for another..all have more impact on india in the future.

and tamil nadu too... the tamil blog talk is whether tamil nadu will be split 3 ways or 2 ways...and where.

alagiri wants his own southern tamilnadu with madurai as capital. ramadoss wants a vanniar dominated north.

the gounders want a kongu nadu with kovai as the capital. the tiruppur money, cowed down by the deprival of electricity to the knitting mills, is betting on kongu nadu, as they feel they can support power plants with their revenue generation alone. and no one to question their continued destruction of ground water through chemical effluents

all in all exciting times.

as long as these leaders can round up a few guys to commit suicides and burn 100 buses, another split will be on the table. and all these leaders need to do, is to visit sonia and pay homage to the congress party eh! the politics of the day, makes rules, which impacts perpetuity.

we are starting with another era, battle of plassey all over again, except instead of the british, it is now italians

more fdi means what i dont know. i thought we got all the fdi we needed, except we dont know how to use them properly. how can fdi resolve our basic issue re ineptitude and corruption? we all know tamil nadu needs more power, but nobody can agree on the rate to pay the generators. and electricity gets stolen and given free to certain folks like farmers...oh well!!

if the country is digging its own grave, i think by default, every community is participating in it. no?

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I was keeping away from this forum for the last three days (and, incidentally, found that it was also a kind of "freedom" - freedom from the usual brahamana eulogy and some sense trying to prevail against it.

Today, I just wanted to see what, if any at all, had changed and found Shri Praveen's ruling about EVR being a persona non grata here in this forum.

But I do not think more fdi for India or further balkanization of India with claims for a new Bodoland, Vidarbhaland, Mayavati's four pieces of UP, a new Tulunadu and so on will be of much interest or relevance to our brahmin interests. Our brahminism has been "sanatana dharma" existing even before the Big Bang and the beginning of time as per Shri Sravna and it (that sanatana dharma) will possibly continue to exist even after Time is destroyed with the entire universe shrinking back to a point. !!

Brahmins with their sattvik qualities, and the various other noble qualities exhibited in ample measure by some of the permanent members and also a few newcomers, will continue to thrive and flourish from glory to higher glory in spite of fdi, new states, etc., but the only enemy which can put a stop to that "digvijayam" is only the "gene pool" business; our girls should not become carriers of non-brahmin genes and more pointedly, the shudra and panchama genes. So, if you or Nara or anyone else has daughters, be careful.

 

[vgane]

Our brahminism has been "sanatana dharma" existing even before the Big Bang and the beginning of time as per Shri Sravna and it (that sanatana dharma) will possibly continue to exist even after Time is destroyed with the entire universe shrinking back to a point. !!

Brahmins with their sattvik qualities, and the various other noble qualities exhibited in ample measure by some of the permanent members and also a few newcomers, will continue to thrive and flourish from glory to higher glory in spite of fdi, new states, etc., but the only enemy which can put a stop to that "digvijayam" is only the "gene pool" business; our girls should not become carriers of non-brahmin genes and more pointedly, the shudra and panchama genes. So, if you or Nara or anyone else has daughters, be careful.

Shri Sangom,

You have hit the nail on the head...Besides this no pride in our culture....Self deprecating talk...Loss of hope...Less dialogue between parents & teen age children are all probable reasons for this

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Since this thread is about IC/IR marriages I thought I will share this youtube video.
I do not know how sound the analysis is or whatever its overall message is.

But the message about survival of a culture being tied to its fertility rate seem to make sense.

One obvious thing is certain - the world and its make up will be constantly changing. Hence there is no need to 'worry'

Today's culture will not remain same in the next 100 years - for any community.
.

I am not sure what the fertility rate of the so called TB is

Muslim Demographics - YouTube

Biology says u shud marry before u r 21-22,i ll encourage my son to look seriously for a relationship when he is in high school and marry by 22-23.

You dont do anything worthwhile in your 20s socially,getting drunk and wasting time.

 

[renuka]

Biology says u shud marry before u r 21-22,i ll .

????

 

[prasad1]

Biology says u shud marry before u r 21-22,i ll encourage my son to look seriously for a relationship when he is in high school and marry by 22-23.

You dont do anything worthwhile in your 20s socially,getting drunk and wasting time.

Why not 16? and must procreate one every year (punishment for not producing). LOL

The parsee community is suffering because of this isolation.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

<edited.> refer to http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...nity-digging-its-own-grave-41.html#post199722