Is the Community digging its own grave

[amala]

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They are mostly beautiful...Shruti Hassan..product of a TB Father and Nortie Non Brahmin Mother..what a beauty and a talented..intelligent girl too.Vivek Oberoi..product of a Nortie NB Father and a TB mother..a handsome young man with a heart of gold..helped out lots in TN during the Tsunami.

Omg don't let any Maharashtrians hear you calling them "norties". There is no love lost between them! Also Shruti actually had her nortie(sic) mum's nose and she did rhinoplasty to get a pretty nose and now shes pretty but its after surgery. I always thought she was pretty anyway, apparently neither she nor Bollywood did. So there you go.

 

[prasad1]

Dear All

Anyone know what became of MK - Manohar Kumar ? - seemed like an interesting person.

I might have missed it - hope the ladies didn't do some 'research' on him and shoo him away !

I suspect VR's hand in his going underground !

Yay Yem

AMji you have death wish?
People come and go, it is a free site.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr.Sangom,

I refer post #61 of you:

While I too have interacted with IC married Brahmin girls who are intelligent, bold etc., I have not come across a single case where the girls trashed the entire Brahmin culture in the way your samples have done. They expressed their decision to marry outside the caste as:

1. I was swept off my feet. I do not know what happened to me.

2. We had become so intimate that we could not live without each other.

3. My family has been living in the midst of people belonging to this caste and I did not have the opportunity to move with any one else. They are good people. There is no difference between our culture and their culture. They too are vegetarians.

4. I was in serious trouble and he helped me out. He was the only one who took lot of pains to help me.

5. I worked as an article clerk doing my CA with a Chartered Accountant’s firm and he too was there doing the same. We had opportunities to stay out together for days together. That helped us understand each other well.

And many more such shallow reasons. Some of them regret their dicision too.

You have also said:

It is for our tabra society/community, including our revered Mutts, Matadhipathis, etc., to give a fitting answer to such doubts instead of simply saying that the girls erroneously believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance.
I personally feel that the tabra community has no convincing answers to these and many other equally valid doubts, about our hypocritical belief system, and hence, we have to patiently bear with the rebellion which these girls seem to be making but without saying so. The foolishness of the tabra community consists in the fact that this community has not yet seen these IC and IR marriages as signs of an internal rebellion against this community itself and its misplaced value systems and the members here are trying to treat the patient without knowing how to make proper diagnosis.

I am delving into the archives of this forum. I find many people have contributed answers to these points earlier. I will get back soon with my answer to your bullet points. Thanks.

 

[prasad1]

Vaagmiji,
I do not know your life experiences, but to make a comment like "shallow reasons" is not understanding the problem at all. You think all arranged marriages past and present did not have regrets.

There are many TB boys living with their parents value system and they are single. Those who have adapted with the modern values are probably happily married.

If TB girls are getting the respect and courted by a boy (TB, NB, or else), and she has to put up with TB boys without a clue, who should they choose as life partner? Or you think they should have listened to their parents and suffer for the rest of their life? I guess girls have evolved and parents are stuck in the past.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Prasad Garu

Death Wish? - No way. Just that he seems to have vanished. Was wondering if any 'research'
was done on him, and maybe I missed it. That's all.

Yes, I've been to some weird places and done lots of crazy things, yes a bit of a dope, but never wished
ill of or for anybody.

Ok, this might sound crazy to many - I've gone back to fasting during Ramaadan out of my own
volition, just for the heck of it - no religious / ritualistic tags attached. I skipped the Roza last three years.

Yay Yem

 

[Nara]

.......... Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

This kind of supremacist talk appears with regular intervals, almost every day. I have highlighted two assertions by sravna. The first one is cited above. Lower and higher level by definition means hierarchy. The assertion is people of different castes are at different levels of a ladder of spiritual progress, some at the bottom and some at the top and others everywhere in between. Even though sravna did not mention any caste names here, the upshot is obvious, people belonging to Brahmin caste are at a higher level of spirituality and those who are not Brahmins are at lower level of spiritual progress.

And then he says:

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

Why not? When the claim is people belonging to Brahmin caste are at a higher level of spiritual progress and those who are at lower level must first "consummate" that lower level before moving up and only after that they can aspire to marry at the higher level -- it all reeks of some humans are superior and some are inferior. As if he anticipated this charge he supplies a strange disclaimer -- that is because lot of people don't care for spirituality. But sravna is not one them. He cares a lot about spirituality. So, does he believe in this supremacist nonsense.

What is particularly galling about all this is Tamil Bhakti literature is full of great Bhaktas Azhavar/Nayanmar etc. Many of them are not Brahmins, yet all the religious people revere them all. Are these Azhvars and Nayanmars who do not belong to the Brahmin caste at a lower level of spirituality compared to all the people belonging to the Brahmin caste?

Thanks

 

[sangom]

This kind of supremacist talk appears with regular intervals, almost every day. I have highlighted two assertions by sravna. The first one is cited above. Lower and higher level by definition means hierarchy. The assertion is people of different castes are at different levels of a ladder of spiritual progress, some at the bottom and some at the top and others everywhere in between. Even though sravna did not mention any caste names here, the upshot is obvious, people belonging to Brahmin caste are at a higher level of spirituality and those who are not Brahmins are at lower level of spiritual progress.

And then he says:
Why not? When the claim is people belonging to Brahmin caste are at a higher level of spiritual progress and those who are at lower level must first "consummate" that lower level before moving up and only after that they can aspire to marry at the higher level -- it all reeks of some humans are superior and some are inferior. As if he anticipated this charge he supplies a strange disclaimer -- that is because lot of people don't care for spirituality. But sravna is not one them. He cares a lot about spirituality. So, does he believe in this supremacist nonsense.

What is particularly galling about all this is Tamil Bhakti literature is full of great Bhaktas Azhavar/Nayanmar etc. Many of them are not Brahmins, yet all the religious people revere them all. Are these Azhvars and Nayanmars who do not belong to the Brahmin caste at a lower level of spirituality compared to all the people belonging to the Brahmin caste?

Thanks

Dear Shri Nara,

I have been reading Shri sravna's contributions right from his very first post, and perhaps you have also been able to. Right from the start, he appeared to me to be obsessed by some vahue notions of "spirituality", spiritual progress, reality, the unreal reality and so on. Much of his jargon is well nigh unintelligible. The latest adventure from his side being the thread "Scientific knowledge as a projection of Spiritual Knowledge".

I therefore feel that most possibly he has a subconscious claim to himself being at a higher level of the so-called enigmatic, spirituality whereas admission to that exclusive club is restricted by rules and regulations which he himself frames, from time to time. Incidentally, when his club is thrown open to brahmins as a group, on occasions, we do find many likes from the usual, predictable quarters.

I will therefore request you to view Shri Sravna's notions about "spirituality" as nothing more than a foible of his.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr.Sangom,

Your post #61 again:

Your words are reproduced as bullet points and my replies are given in blue fonts.

My limited interaction with some of the employed girls and one or two who have married NB men according to their own selection, makes me conclude that these girls who perhaps have original, out-of-the box, problem-solving. etc., kind of thinking feel that they are mostly irrelevant vis-a-vis the tabra belief system. A few examples put forward are as under:—
1.Why are women prohibited from doing the various vaideeka karmas, including srAddhams for her parents?
Which other caste is getting the women perform the ancestor-worshipping rituals? When it comes to denying women equal status, all the castes are on the same boat. If the denial of right to perform vaidheeka karma is the reason for IC marriages, it appears to be just an after thought. Rather in the Brahmin community women enjoy a better place than in other communities. By marrying a NB boy you don’t get to perform sradhdhams to your ancestors. Do you?

2.Why should women be considered "impure" during menstruation, and why even religious functions like sraaddham are stopped because the wife has her monthly periods, although her role is just holding the grass - a mockery of her individuality, independence and intelligence?

This again has nothing to do with IC marriages. Women are considered impure during the menstruation period in every caste except the agricultural labour class where too the income will be lost if they take rest at home and hence they do their work 24x365. My dear brahmin girl! you do not become pure during your periods just because you have married a NB boy.

3.Why are gender roles so accurately marked out as far as the tabra religious side is concerned whereas, in the secular or real world aspects, girls/women are even encouraged to study, qualify and earn money just in competition to menfolk? Is this not a double standard of sorts?

Life is not a frozen frame at a particular point in time. The community is changing with time. But at its own measured pace. If some one is impatient with the pace they have the freedom to run fast. But they can not find fault with the society/community for its pace. The part is too small to sway the whole. Those who are impatient go their way and the community forgives and forgets them and their wayward behavior unlike some other communities where a sickle determines the fate (those communities for whom the IC married girls appear to be having a fancy).

4.In what way are the brahmins superior or more cultured than all the rest of the country's population? Have we any scientific evidence in support of this? If a tabra girl loves a NB boy who is a crorepati, why is the community accepting it as if some honour is coming, whereas if the NB boy is a clerk or junior officer, so much of objections are made?

Brahmin culture may not be superior in an absolute sense because what is superior for some can be inferior for some one else. But certainly Brahmin culture is unique and different from the culture of other castes (let me reiterate once again that I have no notions of totemic upper and lower pecking order for castes). Scientific evidence? When you touch fire it burns you and hurts you. You do not need scientific evidence for such things. There are many things which are learnt from careful observation of life as it passes and the experience that is gained. A crorepati NB boy is not welcomed by the community. He may be welcomed by parents of individual girls and it is a matter of individual preference. I have yet to come across the community issuing a welcome address or throwing a party to a crorepati NB SIL of a poor Brahmin family for the money he comes with. The community bothers least about the economic status of the NB boy in an IC marriage. It is perhaps the parents and the girls concerned who make all the fuss in some cases

5.Why, on the above lines, when sons & daughters of the upper crust Tabras marry outside brahmin caste and even outside hindu religion, these rich people are not ostracized by brahmins including the vaideekans and the mutts like Kanchi, Sringeri etc? Is it not proof sufficient that out tabra society only worships mammon, and all the rest of this so-called religious blah blah is just that . . . mere blah, blah?

That is the difference between brahmin culture and others’ culture. Brahmins sympathize with the parents(for their pain) of such wayward children and just keep quite about the whole episode while other castes make the parents hang by a rope, burn houses and properties of the opposite caste involved, burn public properties and public transport buses and finally win elections by harping on such a trivial issue. Kanchi and Sringeri matoms remain silent because it is not something worth shouting about. That shows their maturity. Also they are not choosy in this. They treat rich and poor followers in this regard equally with silence. It is not as if poor followers are condemned while rich ones are rewarded.


6.Why should I/we not therefore choose a boy of our liking either outside the brahmin caste or hindu religion and how can you object to this when the caste's double standards is there for everyone to see?


For all the reasons given above in the replies. You have no sensible or mature reason to go for a IC marriage unless you have already been swept off your feet and your hormones got the better of you.
.
7.I personally feel that the tabra community has no convincing answers to these and many other equally valid doubts, about our hypocritical belief system, and hence, we have to patiently bear with the rebellion which these girls seem to be making but without saying so. The foolishness of the tabra community consists in the fact that this community has not yet seen these IC and IR marriages as signs of an internal rebellion against this community itself and its misplaced value systems and the members here are trying to treat the patient without knowing how to make proper diagnosis.

Let us for a moment come to an understanding on your terms. OK. IC marriages are the panacea. We are hypocritical in our belief. Shall we do something in the interest of the Brahmin community? We can all discourage our girls from marrying boys from the Brahmin community. We will all actively look for boys from other castes and religions only. Right from the young age of 6 when the girl child starts attending schools, we will indoctrinate the child about the disadvantages in marrying within the community. We can even choose the community from which the child should choose her husband(should be rich and bring loads of money). There will be no need for any rebellion. We can dispense with our misplaced value system too. We can even compel/convince our religious heads (Sringeri, Kanchi, Ahobhilam etc., matoms) to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom. We do not want to be fools. Do you think after this every thing will be hunky and dory? To start with please answer this one question honestly. Will you, Mr. Sangom, ask your grand daughters to avoid brahmins like plague and encourage them to get married to NBs?

Thanks.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara, Yes I do care a lot about spirituality but does that mean I consider myself superior if I am spiritual? It is like saying if I care a lot about money , I would consider myself superior if I were rich.The conclusion does not follow. What does follow is that I would be glad that I am rich. Feeling good about something you possess and feeling superior about it are not the same. Regarding nayanmars again Nara's conclusion does not follow because I did not say that spiritual development is restricted only to the brahmins. But in general the reverse is true.

 

[Vaagmi]

I do not know your life experiences, but to make a comment like "shallow reasons" is not understanding the problem at all. You think all arranged marriages past and present did not have regrets

.

Where did I say anything about love marriages and arranged marriages. Friend, there can be love marriages and arranged marriages in marriages within the community too.

There are many TB boys living with their parents value system and they are single. Those who have adapted with the modern values are probably happily married.

There are many more brahmin boys and girls with their parents value system happily married within the community and living happily.

If TB girls are getting the respect and courted by a boy (TB, NB, or else), and she has to put up with TB boys without a clue, who should they choose as life partner? Or you think they should have listened to their parents and suffer for the rest of their life? I guess girls have evolved and parents are stuck in the past.

Again I think you are speaking about arranged marriages Vs love marriages. I have nothing to say on that here. My argument is only against IC/IR marriages.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom, I do not think you remarks indicate that you can be objective. The same can be said of all of your beliefs.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom, I do not think you remarks indicate that you can be objective. All of your beliefs can be dismissed in the same way.

 

[Nara]

Dear zebra16,

My response is only in respect of the high lighted portion of the text of your message. You have conveniently added caste purity which need not necessarily be the reason for viewing the IC/IR marriage as "scourge" by the OP. After all we have seen in the last 100 years or so that two equally "pure caste" sub sects did not come together in marriage.

I think maintaining caste purity is a necessary part of maintaining culture, custom, tradition, etc. In fact maintaining caste purity is both a reason by itself and as a means of achieving other objectives like custom, culture.

I admit that I would readily given in to the demand of my child to marry a partner of her choice, but you are rather over playing the "love" card more blatantly. What about the love of the son or daughter to his/her mother and father? Is it a second fiddle to the love of the marriage partner?

If you go back 20 or 30 years there was still some social taboo attached to IC/IR marriages. As the OP and so many others lament, it is no longer a taboo. Every family has at least one IC/IR. Further, the society is increasingly moving towards nuclear family configuration. IC/IR or not, extended joint family is in its last throes of becoming extinct. So, in this situation, what the family asks of the boy/girl is lot more than what the boy/girl asks of the family.

Why does a person who loves his/her brother or sister without reservation, when he/she had no choice or option of selection, has to put such a premium on the parental love and demand my way or highway in respect of marriage?

I think it is not the girl/boy who sees this as a zero-sum-game, the family does.

Notwithstanding all your reservations about Brahmnical culture and values that made you put the word values in quotes, and howsoever it may be elusive to define and be invisible, it is as much an inevitability or "scourge" like IC/IR marriages are, and people who scoff at such "values" would do well to recognize it and start to adjust themselves to its reality just as they did with IC/IR marriages.

The reason I put the word in quotes is because I think phrases like "Brahmin values" and "Judeo-Christian values" are jingoistic. Good moral and ethical principles that we recognize as "values" are human values common to everyone. As for culture, I see no reason why it must be purely Brahminical, why can't it be freely shared with anyone who wishes.

best regards ....

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr.Sangom,

Your post #61 again:

Your words are reproduced as bullet points and my replies are given in blue fonts.
We can even compel/convince our religious heads (Sringeri, Kanchi, Ahobhilam etc., matoms) to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom. We do not want to be fools. Do you think after this every thing will be hunky and dory? To start with please answer this one question honestly. Will you, Mr. Sangom, ask your grand daughters to avoid brahmins like plague and encourage them to get married to NBs?

Shri Vaagmi,

True to the literal meaning of your moniker, you seem to have an abundance of words. But, instead of taking an overall view of the reasons which cause disillusionment in the minds of our tabra girls, you have, like a pedagogue, taken each item and have given some excuses to suit your pov.

I am therefore, avoiding the chaff portions in your writings and am taking the climax portions.

First, it will be very easy for me to say, yes, please go ahead and compel/convince the mutts (pun not intended) to analyze the causes and find acceptable solutions to the bulletted points in my post (and not "to issue edicts saying that those who marry their daughters within the community will be thrown out of the fellowship of the matom." -these are deliberate and diabolical twists made to my ideas, anrita vaagmi).
The mutts, true to their name (is there a pun here?) will never agree, and will not be able to do anything, even in your grandchildren's times, I am sure.

I have two grandsons aged 6 and 2 years. I don't know what my grandsons - british citizens - will do when they grow up and I may not be alive at that time. But if I live that long and still have all my faculties intact, I will not compel them either to marry only brahmin or even hindu girls, nor will I compel them against these. It will be their choice completely.

 

[kunjuppu]

..
.... But if I live that long and still have all my faculties intact, I will not compel them either to marry only brahmin or even hindu girls, nor will I compel them against these. It will be their choice completely.

dearest sangom,

first of all wishing you a long enough life with all faculties intact, to witness your grandsons' wedding. and as you so classily put it, 'of their choice'

now, how come people here dont understand, that one cannot force or even persuade our children to marry someone because of or inspite of 'caste'

people who fall in love and marry, do so of their own free will. we may not like their choices, but i think, we have to accept it, because these are OUR children. that THEIR children will not find spouses among tambrams, is taking imagination too far, i think.

who knows what the world will be in 25 years? did we ever bargain for the changes that is happening now or past 10 years?

ask any tambram in the 1950s or upto 1967 - and no one would have imagined how quickly and absolutely we lost all our power and influence overnight, after DMK won. that periyar supported kamaraj and congress in 1967 is another story. that we basked in the benefits of immediate post independence and to see it all grabbed away overnight, i think, many tambrams are yet to get over accepting it, though almost everyone has moved on and prospered even better than imagined. every new obstacle always opens up new unimagined & more rewarding opportunities.

changes happen and happen fast and unpredictably. it is the smart ones, who adapt to these changes, and work towards managing these, to their favour and benefit. blindly opposing trends over which they have no influence, i think, is not only detrimental, but could be harmful to the self or near and dear ones. just my thoughts.

good day to you sir

 

[SureshAiyar]

The Brahmin community is undergoing a tremendous change both in outlook and pressures from the modern world. Per the varnashrama dharma a Brahmin is supposed to be subsisting on performing vedic karmas, vedic studies and preaching/teaching. But in the modern world, its difficult to find both the opportunity and audience to lead a respectable living. Everything is happening according to the rules of Kali Yuga under the sway of Kalipurusha. In this yuga, it is said everyone is born a sudra - to serve materiality and live for material pleasure alone. However, there is a way out and the only benediction we have is to do Nama Sankirtana - the holy austerity recommended for this yuga. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says - 'harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nastyeva nastyeva nastyeva..gatir anyata..". There is no refuge in Kali Yuga except the name of Lord Hari. At the end o Dvapara Yuga when Krishna paramatma left, he entered into the words of Srimad Bhagavatham and the power of Krishna entered his naama. Thus Krishna's name is non-different from Shri Krishna himself.
The Kali Santarana Upanishad, has Lord Brahma advising Sri Narada maharishi on the glory of lord's holy names in the kali yuga, namely the Hare Krishna mahamantra.
'Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare..Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare'..chanting this mantra and seeking the grace of Lord Krishna alone can save the soul and return it safely back to Godhead (paramdham).

 

[sangom]

dearest sangom,

first of all wishing you a long enough life with all faculties intact, to witness your grandsons' wedding. and as you so classily put it, 'of their choice'

now, how come people here dont understand, that one cannot force or even persuade our children to marry someone because of or inspite of 'caste'

people who fall in love and marry, do so of their own free will. we may not like their choices, but i think, we have to accept it, because these are OUR children. that THEIR children will not find spouses among tambrams, is taking imagination too far, i think.

who knows what the world will be in 25 years? did we ever bargain for the changes that is happening now or past 10 years?

ask any tambram in the 1950s or upto 1967 - and no one would have imagined how quickly and absolutely we lost all our power and influence overnight, after DMK won. that periyar supported kamaraj and congress in 1967 is another story. that we basked in the benefits of immediate post independence and to see it all grabbed away overnight, i think, many tambrams are yet to get over accepting it, though almost everyone has moved on and prospered even better than imagined. every new obstacle always opens up new unimagined & more rewarding opportunities.

changes happen and happen fast and unpredictably. it is the smart ones, who adapt to these changes, and work towards managing these, to their favour and benefit. blindly opposing trends over which they have no influence, i think, is not only detrimental, but could be harmful to the self or near and dear ones. just my thoughts.

good day to you sir

The problem, dear Kunjuppu, is that this notion about "brahminness" (and I am deliberately using this newly coined word, as distinct from "brahminism" which has become sort of cliche) is a thing which is very, very deep-rooted in the psyche of most of us tabras. Reasons can be many and we may be able to argue endlessly about which are the valid causes and which are not, but this 'stamp' is there in the depths of the mind. Even if someone is able to live abroad and move with those foreigners 24 X 7 X 365, on occasions this "brahminness" will pop up and start doing its wonders — just like some Trojan software sometimes behave in the PC, bringing a pop-up of one kind or another on the screen.

That is the reason why people feel so much about the purity of caste, culture, traditions etc., as though they have successfully preserved, maintained and are ready to bequeath the very same kind of "brahminness" as possibly existed when the earliest riks were composed by Madhucchandaa Visvaamitra. This dichotomy — ourselves moving farther and farther away from whatever was brahminness, (like the expanding universe) since we value money and material pleasures more, on the one hand, while holding firmly a mental image as though we are custodians of some ancient and invaluable treasure of culture, knowledge, etc., and are meticulously following those traditions to the dot, on the other, is the basic problem.

But having been born, brought up as a tabra and having lived for more than 7 decades, I am sure that we tabras will lose no opportunity whatsoever to better our financial position by whatever possible means, even if that means a departure from our scriptural injunctions. (In fact in the Neeya Naana episode last week, Shri Gopinath said that already the upper crust of India's society have started learning Mandarin; I think probably because they stand to gain financially from commercial deals with Chinese sources.)

 

[sravna]

In post #61 Shri.Sangom raises some points to suggest the discriminatory and the hypocritical nature of the brahminical value system. The first 3 points talk about the discrimination in our value system and the others about the hypocrisy. Shri Sangom thinks that these and more such issues have created an unfavorable impression about our culture on the mind of the brahmin girls. But I think it cannot be just the hypocritical and discriminatory practices of the community why the IC marriages are happening. As Shri.Vaagmi points out this is not the malaise of the tamil brahmin community only but is something that is also prevalent among the other communities. But let us consider this as a factor. I will come back to it soon. If it is not just the brahminical system then what made the tamil brahmin girls rebel? The second broad factor that one can think of is something that can be attributed to the brahmin girl herself. It is probably something in her that made her rebel. I think the most likely reason for rebellion is the need for independence. I suggested in a previous post that tamil brahmin girl being intelligent would seek independence given the belief system that is predominant in the world. In my view this factor merits consideration as the IC marriages in the tamil brahmin community are among the most such marriages. This in spite of the community being a stronghold of cultural values. Or does this offer a clue? Something which holds you strong about which you are uncomfortable has a repressive effect. Thus the stage is already set for a rebellion to happen. Now add to this the independent nature of the brahmin girl and the rebellion that it fosters. The result is there for all to see. If we indeed agree that the above is the problem, steps need to be taken to address the two sources of the problem. A cleansing of the system is definitely in order and practices that are not really the core of our philosophy and not in tune with the times need to be done away with. This includes all the discriminatory practices against women. As a second step, the younger generation should be made to understand the soundness of the hindu philosophy and the its actual relevance even in the modern age. That way the respect for our values will happen and our values will not be seen as being repressive and so also the ensuing need to rebel.

 

[kunjuppu]

The problem, dear Kunjuppu, is that this notion about "brahminness" (and I am deliberately using this newly coined word, as distinct from "brahminism" which has become sort of cliche) is a thing which is very, very deep-rooted in the psyche of most of us tabras. Reasons can be many and we may be able to argue endlessly about which are the valid causes and which are not, but this 'stamp' is there in the depths of the mind. Even if someone is able to live abroad and move with those foreigners 24 X 7 X 365, on occasions this "brahminness" will pop up and start doing its wonders — just like some Trojan software sometimes behave in the PC, bringing a pop-up of one kind or another on the screen.

That is the reason why people feel so much about the purity of caste, culture, traditions etc., as though they have successfully preserved, maintained and are ready to bequeath the very same kind of "brahminness" as possibly existed when the earliest riks were composed by Madhucchandaa Visvaamitra. This dichotomy — ourselves moving farther and farther away from whatever was brahminness, (like the expanding universe) since we value money and material pleasures more, on the one hand, while holding firmly a mental image as though we are custodians of some ancient and invaluable treasure of culture, knowledge, etc., and are meticulously following those traditions to the dot, on the other, is the basic problem.

But having been born, brought up as a tabra and having lived for more than 7 decades, I am sure that we tabras will lose no opportunity whatsoever to better our financial position by whatever possible means, even if that means a departure from our scriptural injunctions. (In fact in the Neeya Naana episode last week, Shri Gopinath said that already the upper crust of India's society have started learning Mandarin; I think probably because they stand to gain financially from commercial deals with Chinese sources.)

ha ha ha.. yes, i keep telling my children to learn mandarin , but they all opted for french and spanish. oh ..those young ones !!!!!!

btw sangom, more than 95% (i hate to use 100% because there will always be one exception) tambrams i know in toronto (about 50+ families), have their children married out of caste or race or religion.

how quickly the caste cloak came off? is it because we are outside of india where such varattu gauravams dont matter?

i find my friends here, red neck tambrams once, have mellowed gradually over the years, as their children bring boyfriends girlfriends friends of other types, and they learn to initially grudge, then accept and finally to love. almost 100% there is eventual acceptance, and in almost all cases the unions have been happy and fruitful.

a proud tambram grandfather does not care if his grandchild is half white or half sikh or half punjabi or half telugu. it is his pride and joy,and he still goes out of his way, to babysit and take care of the child. with much fondness, as any of our grandparents in palakkad or thiruvananthapuram

 

[prasad1]

.

There are many more brahmin boys and girls with their parents value system happily married within the community and living happily.

If what you say is true, then why this OP and the lament

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

Are you saying that IC/IR marriages are arranged marriages? Obviously when you talk if IC/IR marriages you are talking of love marriages.

 

[Asirvadam]

Brother Sangam used terms like 'Brahminness', 'Brahminism' etc. Whatever those terms signify, mean and howsoever they are interpreted, how 'Brahmin' are the current day brahmins?

The brahmin boys and girls who are in the early, mid and late 20s in the current decade care 2 hoots about all these terms.

The righteous ones among them are concerned only about progress in career and better life through righteous means. They exercise liberty wisely to choose their life partners themselves and save their parents trouble. Their choice of a person to marry is based on their requirements for a good life, good future for their descendants/offspring. Caste/Religion takes a backseat or is insignificant. Hence so-called IC/IR marriages.

But could someone explain how IC/IR marriages are a compromise on brahminness and brahminism (or brahminhood)? After all, brahminness/brahminism is about being human and being the best human in that. You can be a brahmin regardless of your spouse being one. Again IC/IR marriages is not a wave in which the current generation get swept away. It is neither a revolution.

I am a disciple of the Messiah and my wife an Iyengar, an orthodox one in that. We have rapidly matured after marriage. We never compromised on our legacy but have shed/dispensed with elements that would retard our progress in any way. We love each other. We feel like we are the happiest couple on earth. Our material prosperity does not match the standards set by the world, for that matter. We dont care who accepts or rejects us. We have accepted each other. Whether our respective communities need/honor us or not, the society needs/honors us and that is all that matter to us. We give to the society and expect less from the society. If our community cannot adjust with us, it is the problem of/with the community and not us.

 

[renuka]

Omg don't let any Maharashtrians hear you calling them "norties". There is no love lost between them! Also Shruti actually had her nortie(sic) mum's nose and she did rhinoplasty to get a pretty nose and now shes pretty but its after surgery. I always thought she was pretty anyway, apparently neither she nor Bollywood did. So there you go.

Dear Amala,

Sarika Thakur (wife of Kamal) is not fully Marathi...she is half marathi..half rajput.

BTW Shruti had Kamal Hassan's nose bridge..with a slight bump on the ridge.

I have noticed the old pics too.

Sarika's nose was always aquiline.

BTW Bollywood did not reject her..she has a few movies up North too.

She is beautiful and young enough to find her footing eventually..even plain Jane like Vidya Balan eventually found her footing.

BTW I forgot to add one more succesful Non Brahmin Marathi father and TB mother

Soundarya Rajinikanth

 

[Delhi6]

..even plain Jane like Vidya Balan eventually found her footing.

What blasphemy!

 

[biswa]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend, surely you knew that.

 

[renuka]

what blasphemy!

Ok I will let you know my concept of beauty.....tall,slim and sexy like Priyanka Chopra and Deepika Padukone especially Deepika ..she is sooooooooo beautiful with a perfect figure.