Is the Community digging its own grave

[sangom]

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Dear Shri Sangom,

I do understand the anguish about the non adherance to the nitya karmas which will result in law of retributive action (Karma)...Besides rituals, good Karmas are also created by virtuous thoughts, words and deeds..Altruistic deeds and charity will also help

It was possible to follow the Nitya Karma in the agrarian economy esp in the villages

However with 95% migration to the cities and towns where one has to go for job at 8 AM some of the rituals were not feasible...But to say that because you are not following the rituals cursing them to dissolve with other castes and communities is heresy...

Given the constraints, Brahmins are trying to follow whatever is feasible..It may be a compromise but I would say the soul is intact...In North India for example as doing Karmas on exact dates of Thithis is not feasible they do shradh in the Pitru paksha period in the Krishna Paksha fortnight

Instead of repairing the casket you are asking us to throw away that treasure trove and you are thrusting Bible and Koran in our hands..

Instead of writing an epitaph please guide us what needs to be done

Shri Gane,

Taking the last but one first, repairing an empty casket when the treasure which it contained has been lost irretrievably, is a foolish thing.

What you say in the first three paras is finding lame excuses for our departing from the brahmin mode of life which was adhered to by our forefathers until about a hundred years ago. The fact remains that we as a caste or community preferred to run after more money and the material comforts which it can bestow to us and then there was no lamenting about throwing away of the casket, writing a draft obituary, etc.

virtuous thoughts, words and deeds..Altruistic deeds and charity are not the monopoly of any caste; even tabra boys and girls who marry IC/IR can perform these.

But today, just because some of our boys and many more of our nubile girls prefer to marry outside our clan, it is felt that the valuable nectar of brahministic culture, nay, its very soul, is imagined as being lost forgetting the fact that whatever that soul be, is being carried in a sieve and the nectar is getting rapidly lost on the highways of time.

I tend to agree with Shri Brahmanyan that we should be ready to accept all the changes that Time brings and learn to survive, even then, in the best possible manner. Stopping IC/IR marriages in our community will be impossible (as may be evident from the kutarkka put forward by Shri Vaagmi which ended up saying that people like us (Brahmanyan, myself, Nara, Kunjuppu, etc.,) are against marriages within our caste!!). Hence my suggestion is to get along as best as possible and let the generations to follow us consider which aspects of the so-called "soul" of brahminism they would like to maintain and pass on to posterity.

 

[Nara]

....Couple of years ago I came across a woman in her late 20s in a Vedanta class I was attending. She was from an area near Brazil and her knowledge of our Upanishads was phenomenal.

[snip]

..... To me she is represent a (new breed of Guna) Brahmin that B.Gita refers to. Inter-race marriage to such a person would be a privilege in my view to the family of her husband if she chooses to marry.

With due respects to tks, the above is the same principle LS asserted in his "Shudra can become Brahmin" thread. When indoctrinated and imprisoned by the centuries old cultural forces it is sometimes difficult to even see the supremacist elements of that culture. A classic example of this phenomenon was in full display a weeks ago in the U.S. when Paula Deen's deposition became public, initially she didn't know what the fuss was all about.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr. Nara,

I generally do not beat around the bush. If this post #117 was addressed to me directly I would have given the following reply:

Vaagmi was quite harsh (post 101) with what he sees as hypocrisy of those who want to accept IC/IR if that is what their children and grandchildren choose. To do this he says all of us think IC/IR marriages are good for Brahmins. I do, but not others like Sangom who only are advocating acceptance if that happens.

Where is the need for acceptance when a marriage is a fait accompli. Most of the IC/IR marriages are fait accompli. They do not happen with the concurrence of parents. If it happens with the concurrence, there is no need for all these arguments and Sangom coming in with his recommendations for acceptance. In most cases it becomes a fait accompli and parents come to know of it too late. So acceptance of it is rather a given thing. If the effort is to tell the parents that their children have done something wonderful, then only the opposite view comes into the picture.

Now, would Vaagmi be equally harsh with this convenient hypocrisy of adjusting to the practical reality of having to go to jobs at 8AM and yet wax eloquent about how great Brahmnical way of life is? Never mind the fact no compromise is necessary even if you have to go to jobs at 8AM, you can still fulfill nitya karma and even perform aradhanai, I used to do during my days of delusion

What is "brahminical way of life"?

Is it some thing frozen in the past, a few hundred years back? A relic?
Is it something mentioned in the aahnikam written a few hundred years back based on the conditions existing then?

I would like to get your answer to these questions. If your answer is 'yes' then I would infer with equal ease as you have done and Mr. Sangom has done that it is all kutarkkam, though I may not be able to exhibit any flash of brilliance connecting that to your moniker.

Do you think a marriage is just equivalent to wearing a panchakachcham or growing a tuft? Or for that matter doing praathassandhya before the sun rises, maadhyannikam when the sun is vertically above you and the saayam sandhya exactly before the sun falls in the west? Why this deliberate attempt at obfuscation and creating confusion? Is making money in the right way such a bad thing? Where is it said? If I get employed gainfully does it mean I am chasing mammon? Even ladies who are not exposed the complications of external world say கல்யாணம் ஆயிரங்காலத்து பயிர்". Is it that the elders here writing eloquently about the greatness of IR/IC marriages do not know the meaning of this wisdom statement? My not doing sandhya on time is not the same as my daughter going for a IC/IR marriage. It is a much more serious matter for me.

it is difficult to maintain the old ways when everything has changed. My wish is for everyone to apply the same logic when it comes to IC/IR as well. It is not like you have to take a வச்சா குடிமி, சரச்சா மொட்டை approach like Vaagmi's ridiculous suggestion that you must be either against IC/IR or you must be against within caste marriage or else you are a hypocrite.

Why should I apply the same logic to the marriage too? I can change the way a marriage is conducted and we have changed. But not the marriage itself. My approach is perfectly ok. It is not my way or no way. As long as you say that there are brahmin girls who are going for IR/IC marriages and that there are two opinions about it you are not crossing my path. When you glorify the IC/IR marriages and recommend it strongly with your specious arguments (as Sangom did) it becomes a different ball game. The least the audience listening to your lectures would expect is that you do it yourself first if you are so completely sold on it. When you call my arguments ridiculous you reveal how opinionated you are. By that if you are defending your position of double talk I have the right to call you too a hypocrite.

Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr. Sangom,

I tend to agree with Shri Brahmanyan that we should be ready to accept all the changes that Time brings and learn to survive, even then, in the best possible manner. Stopping IC/IR marriages in our community will be impossible (as may be evident from the kutarkka put forward by Shri Vaagmi which ended up saying that people like us (Brahmanyan, myself, Nara, Kunjuppu, etc.,) are against marriages within our caste!!). Hence my suggestion is to get along as best as possible and let the generations to follow us consider which aspects of the so-called "soul" of brahminism they would like to maintain and pass on to posterity.

Lo! You said in your post #112:

For ordinary human intelligence, anywhere in [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]the world[/COLOR], if one says "I am superior", it necessarily implies a comparison, and if the compared item is not stated, then the implied meaning is "I am superior to you." But may be, under the pure oriental thinking it does not make any difference and everyone can boast "I am superior"

Won't you agree that you compared the items community marriage and IC/IR marriages? And won"t you agree that you glorified IC/IR marriages? We members here are all people with ordinary human intelligence and so we concluded that IC/IR marriages are superior to ordinary community marriages. The least we expected was that the preceptor who revealed this great truth to us should also practice it. Is that a sin? Or is this what is known as kutarkkam?

And by the by, even Mr. Brahmanyan won't say that we should accept all changes as they come without evaluating them. We will take only what is good for us rejecting what is bad for us. Please ask him.

Thanks

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Mr. Brahmanyan,

Your post#111:
Please let us know, according to you, 1. what is the reality 2. How do we adjust and with what 3. what conflict do we create.
This will help us understand your world view.[/COLOR]

Dear Sri "Vaagmi",

At the outset I wish to admit that my views are set to improve myself as a human being evolved by my life and experience. They may or may not help others to understand my world view. It is my view, each one has to find their way to understand and shape up their lives.

First the reality is that my idealism has its limitation. I cannot live in isolation as an individual, but a part of a greater Society and accept the fact that my life is shaped by the pressures of the family and society in which I live. It is certainly difficult to shed my personal preferences to adjust with the pressures of the society, but not impossible. We must accept the fact that the community in which I am born which was respected and supported by the society once for its religious practices and learning has lost its relevance in today's world. Consequently we have also left our religious learning and practices and migrated to other preferences like commercial activity or serve others to elk our livelihood.All of us enjoy inwardly and pleased to be called superior to others. But difficult to shed this notion. When once realised and accepted the fact that I am not in any way superior to others by birth I understand the world as it should be. Failure to accept this creates conflict in the society where we live.

Changes have taken place in our families also. The concept of unified Hindu Undivided Family has lost its relevance when we left the villages and migrated to bigger cities. Elders find it difficult to impose their ideas on other members of the family. Instead it is better to convince them to accept it by action, by practicing them in our life. The present generation is well informed and think independently. Their exposure to out side world and inter mix of community and sex is wider than ours. Marriage is a biological requirement, when the parents postpone or fail to get a partner on time due to economic or other reason, children select their companion. Failure to accept this reality creates conflict in families.

Warm regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[vgane]

Shri Gane,

Taking the last but one first, repairing an empty casket when the treasure which it contained has been lost irretrievably, is a foolish thing.

What you say in the first three paras is finding lame excuses for our departing from the brahmin mode of life which was adhered to by our forefathers until about a hundred years ago. The fact remains that we as a caste or community preferred to run after more money and the material comforts which it can bestow to us and then there was no lamenting about throwing away of the casket, writing a draft obituary, etc.

virtuous thoughts, words and deeds..Altruistic deeds and charity are not the monopoly of any caste; even tabra boys and girls who marry IC/IR can perform these.

But today, just because some of our boys and many more of our nubile girls prefer to marry outside our clan, it is felt that the valuable nectar of brahministic culture, nay, its very soul, is imagined as being lost forgetting the fact that whatever that soul be, is being carried in a sieve and the nectar is getting rapidly lost on the highways of time.

.

How can you make the statement that the treasure trove is lost irretrievably...All our Vedas and Upanishads are preserved (digital/books/CD's etc)and can be studied and deployed without any difficulty..

Do you think our forefathers were only studying and reciting Vedas...My grand father went to Banaras in early 1900's studied Sanskrit and came back to his native village in Tamil Nadu and was an agriculturist..He grew rice, coconut in his farm land..At the same time he followed all the rituals in his village home..My great grand father was also an agriculturist..

I just cannot understand how you came to the conclusion that 100 years back we were not doing any other job but just following the nitya karma..The category that you are referring to are the Vadhyars , Gurukkals and Unjavritthi Brahmins..It was only 5% of the Brahmins who were doing this...Do you have any proof to say that 100 years back all the TamBrahms were not after money (earned in the right way)??...There were teachers, head masters, Tahsildars,Accountant (kanakkar in Tamil) in my own family 100 years back...Same is the situation in other villages

IC/IR cannot be a panacea for the internal issues plaguing our Tam Brahm...

Let us find a solution to this vexing issue...Let us not put on a pseudo secular cap while answering this

 

[biswa]

The Brahmins of today are knowledge workers. It is futile to define Brahmins as temple pujaris or veda pandits because that is a soon to be extinct community. The TB community has moved away from those dying occupations, precisely to avoid digging its own grave.

The question is would you like to survive by finding well-paying, satisfying, respectable jobs and intelligent, conscientious and educated spouses or would you like to die out by holding on to medieval occupations and trying to find a mate in a shrinking gene pool.

The choice is always personal.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

My daughter is learning Mandarin.

Toronto is not in India and you do not have large number of tabras living there. Marriage is not only a social necessity but also a biological need. So your Torontoites have to marry from what is available there. This has nothing to do with gauravam or a varattu one at that.

A proud tambram grandpa in Toronto will have to necessarily not care if his grand child is half white or half punjabi or half telugu (I do not know why you left out half black and half chinese) and babysit the child with fondness because he has consciously chosen to live in Canada leaving behind India. He has no other choice. Thanks.

dear vaagmi,

not sure where you live. i would, albeit reluctantly accept that tambrams in canada, have 'no other choice' because of the small number of us. i think the situation is the same in usa too, because most of the marriages of tambrams have been out of caste or race.

which comes to another point - are you sure that we have sufficient numbers in india? or even tamil nadu?

since 1950s we have practised family planning ie small families. the previous generation, average had 6 -8 children.and each sibling had 6-8 children. so withina generation, a couple begot abotu 35 progeny. my dad had 125 cousins.

now a days, families are one or two, with both girls. nobody cares anymore about having sons only. and if a couple have a son, they stop having kids.

the pool has shrunk exponentially. i would say, for every girl, there needs to be atleast 100 candidates and vice versa. we have so many layers of filtration - starting from horoscopes caste subcaste salary situation status location parent-dependence-in-future age-difference and such..

i think unless we resort to having large families again, the concept of a decent selection criteria for our young re brides or grooms, is going to be even bleaker in the future. just look around, there are not enough of us anywhere. and we are all dispersed. the farther you move from the village, the weaker is the link to your heritage. and tenuous too.

unlike the dalits and the muslims, most of us, who leave our village, do not return. hence the dilapidated agraharams all over tamil nadu and palghat.

everything has to be looked at in the light of these changes - mobility, small family, female education, and above all, change in caste related attitudes.

i, for one, do not look upon caste as a barrier. to me a hindu is more important an identity. i have hopefully inculcated some hindu values in my children. but i am sure, they dont know the meaning of caste. also, living in canada, makes it practical for me to do this. in india, i may have more hurdles. i agree to that.

 

[kunjuppu]

What blasphemy!

you think we have a fatwa for the doctor for statements like .even plain Jane like Vidya Balan

 

[biswa]

you think we have a fatwa for the doctor for statements like .even plain Jane like Vidya Balan

Mr K, we should elect you our Ayatollah for the purposes of issuing these fatwas.

 

[amala]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend, surely you knew that.

There is just no accounting for tastes. Reminds me of CS Lewis's quote. He said : "Beauty is not democratic. She (interesting choice of pronoun there) reveals herself far more to the few than to the many". According to my friend, VB is like a classic Spanish red. An acquired taste, intense, rich, full bodied (no pun intended!) and of consistent quality.

 

[amala]

you think we have a fatwa for the doctor for statements like .even plain Jane like Vidya Balan

A fatwa is way too harsh for poor philistines

 

[tks]

With due respects to tks, the above is the same principle LS asserted in his "Shudra can become Brahmin" thread. When indoctrinated and imprisoned by the centuries old cultural forces it is sometimes difficult to even see the supremacist elements of that culture. A classic example of this phenomenon was in full display a weeks ago in the U.S. when Paula Deen's deposition became public, initially she didn't know what the fuss was all about.

With all due respect Sri Nara, I think you have latent casteist and discriminatory feelings that come out in a manner that is not always obvious. You can tell me I am wrong of course. Please allow me to explain.

When I see an enormous amount of gay bashing by some I have always found out in real life including amongst politicians that they are actually gay (or latent gay but unwilling to come out). Similarly those that speak moral grounds all the time especially while being critical of others tends to be themselves immoral. During Clinton scandal I found that most vociferous critiques turned out to be dirty in their own personal life. Those that go out of the way to show they are not racists tends to harbor such feelings. Even products that go out of their way to advertise quality tend to have anything but quality.

Though this thread is about IC/IR marriages the root issue I understood is the need to preserve good principles of our traditions. I was speaking from the view point without reference to any caste but what human beings are doing to preserve such values across the globe. I do not expect anyone to agree to this point of view.

I do not read many threads, many posts and avoid some people's post - since I have limited time. I still work 60 hours a week.

Your bringing up some extraneous caste related item tells me something else. Time and again your extraordinary exuberance to project a liberal outlook and advertise it even when it does not apply means that you have perhaps latent casteist feelings that were indoctrinated during your SV lifestyle. Kindly explore that possibility. I know about your stated admiration of EVR but two feelings can coexist.

I welcome the emergent of the new polite Sri Nara who I hope does not object to straight talk.

Regards

 

[kunjuppu]

A fatwa is way too harsh for poor philistines

who knows,

our beloved doctor might prefer a fatwa, to being addressed as a 'poor philistine'

here's what wikipedia has to say about philistines.... From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Philistinism is a derogatory term used to describe a particular attitude or set of values. When a person is called a Philistine (in the relevant sense), he is said to despise or undervalue art, beauty, intellectual content, and/or spiritual values. Philistines are also said to be materialistic, to favor conventional social values unthinkingly, and to favor forms of art that have a cheap and easy appeal (i.e. kitsch).

Philistinism affords a contrast to Bohemianism, as the character of a smugly conventional bourgeois social group perceived to lack all the desirably soulful 'bohemian' characteristics, especially an artistic temperament and a broad cultural horizon open to the avant-garde.

To the chosen few, the 'Philistines' embodied a smug, anti-intellectual threatening majority, in the 'culture wars' of the 19th century.

and to further quantify, a 'poor' philistine? is it poverty of wealth? of thought? of ideas? of appreciation? or poverty of poverty itself? ( a la fallin in love with love)

pray explain, dear lady !!!


[video=youtube;PBUFFtQx-1c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBUFFtQx-1c[/video]

 

[Nara]

....I do not read many threads, many posts and avoid some people's post - since I have limited time. I still work 60 hours a week.

What graciousness from the high priest and arbiter of all things esoteric, perched high on his Equus Ferus -- thank you sir, thank you very much indeed. I am awe struck that in between your 60 hour week and not reading all the threads you would condescend to reading my post and then patronize me with your invaluable insights, and what invaluable insights indeed.

Alas, you have failed to address my charge and I stand by it not withstanding your 60 hour week and contempt for lesser mortals. I did not pull this charge out of my hind quarters, it is based on what you wrote, i.e., paraphrasing, the Brazilian girl was a true Brahmin in the BG sense, and this is what LS was saying in the other thread. This charge still stands. I wish you addressed this charge instead of discharging your psycho-babble from the great heights where you dwell adoring your own great wisdom.

You know nothing about me except for what I write here. I know nothing about you except for what you wrote here. My charge is based on what you have written, I have not extrapolated anything. All I am asking you now is that you do the same as well please. If you want to attack me as a casteist, no problem, bring it on, but do so by relying on what I have written, not on your psycho-babble that you have pulled out of a place from where your wisdom seems to get discharged.

Thank you ...

 

[tks]

What graciousness from the high priest and arbiter of all things esoteric, perched high on his Equus Ferus -- thank you sir, thank you very much indeed. I am awe struck that in between your 60 hour week and not reading all the threads you would condescend to reading my post and then patronize me with your invaluable insights, and what invaluable insights indeed.

Alas, you have failed to address my charge and I stand by it not withstanding your 60 hour week and contempt for lesser mortals. I did not pull this charge out of my hind quarters, it is based on what you wrote, i.e., paraphrasing, the Brazilian girl was a true Brahmin in the BG sense, and this is what LS was saying in the other thread. This charge still stands. I wish you addressed this charge instead of discharging your psycho-babble from the great heights where you dwell adoring your own great wisdom.

You know nothing about me except for what I write here. I know nothing about you except for what you wrote here. My charge is based on what you have written, I have not extrapolated anything. All I am asking you now is that you do the same as well please. If you want to attack me as a casteist, no problem, bring it on, but do so by relying on what I have written, not on your psycho-babble that you have pulled out of a place from where your wisdom seems to get discharged.

Thank you ...

"Charge" is in your head and I am not going to go and research some thread.

I think you are not capable of understanding the meaning implied by the word Brahmana (not the name of a varna only) since the glass of caste bias you seem to be wearing prevents you from any other discussion. In many threads here and elsewhere you come across from your posts that you obsessed with caste... Please think about it .. I have nothing more to say. The first step towards self improvement is self acknowledgement ...

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr. Sangom,



Lo! You said in your post #112:



Won't you agree that you compared the items community marriage and IC/IR marriages? And won"t you agree that you glorified IC/IR marriages? We members here are all people with ordinary human intelligence and so we concluded that IC/IR marriages are superior to ordinary community marriages. The least we expected was that the preceptor who revealed this great truth to us should also practice it. Is that a sin? Or is this what is known as kutarkkam?

And by the by, even Mr. Brahmanyan won't say that we should accept all changes as they come without evaluating them. We will take only what is good for us rejecting what is bad for us. Please ask him.

Thanks

Shri Vaagmi,

I don't remember having 'compared' - at least in this thread - inter-community marriage and IC/IR marriage. Since there appears to be some shortcomings in my language which has given rise to the impression that I did such a comparison, and that I 'glorified' IC/IR marriages in comparison to inter-brahmin marriages, let me attempt to put my stand in the matter as clearly as possible for my language command.

Inter-brahmin marriages have been the accepted norm for at least the last 60 or 70 years. The choice used to be restricted to sub-caste in the period before that, say, from the middle of the 18th. century or so, for which I have some information about my paternal family, for 8 generations. Hence, the idea/concept of inter-tabra marriages itself is a heretical idea, if we look at it from the pov of the older generations. (My father was very particular that all his children should marry within the sub-caste, and he was lucky enough - to achieve that. But when the time of his grandchildren came he could no longer enforce this and had to accept alliances outside the sub-caste. He is no more now, but in my elder sister's grand-children's case - they are grown up and are ready for marriage - it looks as though IC marriages are likely, if those grandchildren say that they "love" someone.


Therefore, it is not a question of comparison or glorification of one over the other, but it is just a "majboori" or necessity that we have to accept the IC/IR marriages, irrespective of their superiority or inferiority vis-a-vis inter-brahmin alliances.

Just as marriages with other brahmin sub-castes has impacted the special cultures, values, beliefs, living practices, world views, etc., of each sub-caste within our brahmin caste (and I am sure this has happened.), these IC marriages will also have their impact on the special cultures, values, beliefs, living practices, world views, etc., of the tabra community. But just as we do not condemn the lack of foresighted action by our elders to prevent marriages outside sub-caste, and we claim that the brahmin values have remained intact, we need not now find fault with the IC marriages and the brahmin values will continue to be maintained albeit with some further dilution. (Just like the milkman adding water umpteen times yet the content will never become non-milk but will continue to be sold, by him, as milk only!!)

IR marriages are different, but as I said in an earlier post under this thread, even in some of these cases, the progeny are seen being brought up as brahmins. I, therefore, take the stand that let us not get worked up by these IC/IR marriages but accept them as unavoidable milestones in our journey through time.

Hope I have made myself clear.

 

[talwan]

The inter caste marriages are order of the day.It is not only to tabras.You know the furror created by the marriage of a vanniar girl with a dalit in Darmapuri some months ago.Finally the girl came backto her mother(father commited suicide of the marriage).the boy died recently of suicide or murder. So it happens everywhere.
Alwan

 

[Nara]

I think you are not capable of understanding the meaning implied by the word Brahmana (not the name of a varna only) ...

tks, face it, you have no rational explanation for the questions I have raised. This is why you are attacking me and making my capability, in your estimation that is, the focus of your argument. Forget about my ability, just go ahead and explain why there are two different meanings for the word Brahmana and when you do that give some rational historical evidence for such bifurcated meaning. Explain in what way what you are saying is fundamentally different from what LS so crassly has enunciated. Call me any name you like, put me down all you want, in other words be a jackass all you want, but please provide a rational explanation for the thesis that a person like the Brazilian woman you have cited is a true Brahamana. This is the crux of the argument and I wish you would address this point.

Thanks ...

 

[tks]

tks, face it, you have no rational explanation for the questions I have raised. This is why you are attacking me and making my capability, in your estimation that is, the focus of your argument. Forget about my ability, just go ahead and explain why there are two different meanings for the word Brahmana and when you do that give some rational historical evidence for such bifurcated meaning. Explain in what way what you are saying is fundamentally different from what LS so crassly has enunciated. Call me any name you like, put me down all you want, in other words be a jackass all you want, but please provide a rational explanation for the thesis that a person like the Brazilian woman you have cited is a true Brahamana. This is the crux of the argument and I wish you would address this point.

Thanks ...

Nara - Please stop playing victim - I am not calling you names - no one is.
I sense a bias based in your posts and your proclivity to turn every discussion into Caste related hierarchies so that you come out carrying the flag for the under privileged. Enough of this game - let us all grow up.


I used the word Guna-Brahmana and explained the characteristics of what that means by describing the woman I referred to in that example. I prefaced the word Guna just so that someone like you does not start a tirade. My understanding of references in Bhagavad Gita refers to the qualities and not by birth based classifications. You dont have to agree with me, just understand that there are many interpretations.



The meaning of Guna Brahmana is "One that is aspiring to be enlightened and realize one's true nature"
The sutra 'Tat Tvam Asi' is unconditional and is not related to any Varna (by the way Varna is not caste and I hope you know the difference).

I said the Brazilian lady is a Guna Brahmana.

We have had one discussion about references in Bhgavad Gita in this forum a year or so ago and so I will not even try.

I even had a thread about the various meanings of the word Brahmana - let me provide the reference here

Based on reading the few posts of yours over the years I do not think you are open minded to be able to express understanding of some ideas even if you do not agree with them. That is why I do not like to debate with you.

This is my last post on this topic with you. I am happy to engage with you in other topics.

Regards

 

[sravna]

Shri Vaagmi,

I don't remember having 'compared' - at least in this thread - inter-community marriage and IC/IR marriage. Since there appears to be some shortcomings in my language which has given rise to the impression that I did such a comparison, and that I 'glorified' IC/IR marriages in comparison to inter-brahmin marriages, let me attempt to put my stand in the matter as clearly as possible for my language command.

Inter-brahmin marriages have been the accepted norm for at least the last 60 or 70 years. The choice used to be restricted to sub-caste in the period before that, say, from the middle of the 18th. century or so, for which I have some information about my paternal family, for 8 generations. Hence, the idea/concept of inter-tabra marriages itself is a heretical idea, if we look at it from the pov of the older generations. (My father was very particular that all his children should marry within the sub-caste, and he was lucky enough - to achieve that. But when the time of his grandchildren came he could no longer enforce this and had to accept alliances outside the sub-caste. He is no more now, but in my elder sister's grand-children's case - they are grown up and are ready for marriage - it looks as though IC marriages are likely, if those grandchildren say that they "love" someone.


Therefore, it is not a question of comparison or glorification of one over the other, but it is just a "majboori" or necessity that we have to accept the IC/IR marriages, irrespective of their superiority or inferiority vis-a-vis inter-brahmin alliances.

Just as marriages with other brahmin sub-castes has impacted the special cultures, values, beliefs, living practices, world views, etc., of each sub-caste within our brahmin caste (and I am sure this has happened.), these IC marriages will also have their impact on the special cultures, values, beliefs, living practices, world views, etc., of the tabra community. But just as we do not condemn the lack of foresighted action by our elders to prevent marriages outside sub-caste, and we claim that the brahmin values have remained intact, we need not now find fault with the IC marriages and the brahmin values will continue to be maintained albeit with some further dilution. (Just like the milkman adding water umpteen times yet the content will never become non-milk but will continue to be sold, by him, as milk only!!)

IR marriages are different, but as I said in an earlier post under this thread, even in some of these cases, the progeny are seen being brought up as brahmins. I, therefore, take the stand that let us not get worked up by these IC/IR marriages but accept them as unavoidable milestones in our journey through time.

Hope I have made myself clear.

Dear Shri Sangom,

We have to strike a balance between being overly parochial and being indiscriminately broad minded while considering alliances between groups. Our forefathers at least the recent ones were narrow minded in not considering marriages between sub castes favorably though no where in our scriptures such marriages are prohibited at least to my knowledge. But being indiscriminate in the selection of alliances will be detrimental too. Marriage between the same sex which is now legally considered as marriage widely in the U.S. is its pathetic logical conclusion.

I think there should be valid reasons for not considering marriages between groups that are not equal with respect to spiritual progress. So those who are in favor of IC marriages should show some respect to our scriptures and so to argue their case should try to show that what is advocated there is illogical.

My view for why it is logical is that only marriage between two people with similar spiritual development aids their spiritual progress. Just as people with similar IQ always marry and result in children with high IQ.

 

[sangom]

<snip>

The meaning of Guna Brahmana is "One that is aspiring to be enlightened and realize one's true nature"
The sutra 'Tat Tvam Asi' is unconditional and is not related to any Varna (by the way Varna is not caste and I hope you know the difference).

I said the Brazilian lady is a Guna Brahmana.

I have a doubt. A brazilian speaking a Mleccha bhasha cannot be considered to be within chaturvarnya at all. Hence, I feel the applicability of guNa brAhmaNa is not there at all.

Secondly all that is found in our scriptures relates to "brAhmaNaH", masculine, and not to "brAhmaNee", feminine. A female becomes a brAhmanee, according to our scriptures, only when a brAhmaNa - a guNa one at that -takes hold of her hands and accepts her as his sahadharmiNi.

Hence, we may be morphing our religious scriptures beyond recognition in our freedom to interpret and apply them in any whatsoever way we want. If this freedom is allowed, why not IC marriages also?

 

[tks]

I have a doubt. A brazilian speaking a Mleccha bhasha cannot be considered to be within chaturvarnya at all. Hence, I feel the applicability of guNa brAhmaNa is not there at all.

Secondly all that is found in our scriptures relates to "brAhmaNaH", masculine, and not to "brAhmaNee", feminine. A female becomes a brAhmanee, according to our scriptures, only when a brAhmaNa - a guNa one at that -takes hold of her hands and accepts her as his sahadharmiNi.

Hence, we may be morphing our religious scriptures beyond recognition in our freedom to interpret and apply them in any whatsoever way we want. If this freedom is allowed, why not IC marriages also?

I did not say anything about IC marriages but about the timeless values implied in our tradition.
I said that such values are being preserved all around the world - so we have a new group of people that are living up the ideals of the meaning of the word Brahmana. Varna classification is but one meaning.

I have no interest in Varna classification or discussion about that . I think words like Mleccha is derogatory - there is no need to use them now.

I am talking about universal principles and values - that is the context of my post. Some of our religious traditions are aligned with those principles but not all. I do not have interest in religious traditions that are not connected to principles and have no interest in edicts that have no applicability today.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

< snip>

I think there should be valid reasons for not considering marriages between groups that are not equal with respect to spiritual progress. So those who are in favor of IC marriages should show some respect to our scriptures and so to argue their case should try to show that what is advocated there is illogical.

My view for why it is logical is that only marriage between two people with similar spiritual development aids their spiritual progress. Just as people with similar IQ always marry and result in children with high IQ.

Dear Shri Sravna,

I simply cannot understand this concept/idea of "spiritual progress" (SP). Even granting that there exists some such thing, for argument's sake, how do we judge or measure this SP in a particular human being? Again, unless we know more about this SP, how can we assume that all the humans under each caste or varna of the chaturvarnya system, will get some particular 'grading' in regard to this SP? What factors determine the growth or decay of this SP grade in a human being? Is it not possible that a brahmin girl may have a very low grade of SP as compared to a NB girl?

Unless you provide logically convincing answers to such enigmatic problems associated with the SP concept, it will be of no use to bring up this SP aspect in this discussion (or, for that matter in any discussion, whatsoever). This notion of SP may find approbation only in groups which still believe in the brahmin superiority without any evidence to support such a view.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr. Brahmanyan,

Thank you for your reply.