kuruvi kootam

[renuka]

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Pondichery:

A few years ago some italians fro vatican visited india as tourists, visited temples in south india, and were impressed by hindu culture and vedas. Through internet, located Raja sastry from pondichery in 2001, invited him to italy and learnt veda mantras for three months. The group gave up meat and alcohol. Learnt more during their further visits to india and wanted to convert.

On 4th august, 23 italians took sivs deeksha, and took new names in a function in a temple near pondichery. The naming was officiated by raja sastry with proper vedic rituals.

23 Italian nationals converted into Hinduism | ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? 23 ????????????? Dinamalar

I feel if anyone wants to follow Sanathana Dharma, he/she need not convert.
Just follow the tenets side by side with their pre existing religion.

I am never happy to see "converts"..cos just imagine if this pic was an Indian Hindu couple converting to some other religion everyone will be crying "O Dharma is on the decline..blah blah blah".

Why have double standards?

That's why I like Sathya Sai Baba's teachings..He never asks anyone to abandon their original religion and in Puttaparthi during each each religious festivals like Eid,Christmas,Chinese New Year etc..all cultural and religious principles of variuos religions are given importance.

Devotees from the West might recite Vedas flawlessly and at the same time do NOT abandon worship of Jesus Christ.

They just know that its Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.


Lets hope that the couple in the picture above do not abandon their original religion.

 

[renuka]

Brahmins should not make the mistake of parsis. We should accept into the brahmin fold whoever wants to enter. In the past whole communities were accepted as brahmins by induction. Anyway it is argued by all that guna and karma also decide the varna. So it is possible to increase the numbers before critical size is reached.

Dear Sarang,

I am sure no one want to be a Varna/Community they are not born into.I do not see the logic behind this.
People just want to be useful human beings to the society.


Just to add..at the end of the day we are supposed to get rid of all external identification so why add on excess baggage and make dual identification.

 

[biswa]

dear sir !
the following sentences are truly explain the status of the many community &not only brahmins.
Software revolution helped us to improve the standard of life. Our previous generation brought pride to Tamils/ Indians (Eg. 3 Nobel winners out of 4 Indians are Tamil speaking Brahmins) in all fields across the world, but we reduced our role to Tech Coolies.
the community(identity) is in the verge of mass extinction, like sparrows,

Sorry, Mr. Guru, I don't understand your count. I assume the 3 TB Nobel winners you are referring to are CV Raman, S Chandrashekhar and V Ramakrishnan. However assuming you are including NRIs, there are 4 other Nobel winners: R Tagore, M Teresa, A Sen and H Khorana. Please take a look: Nobel laureates of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course without belittling any community, the count is actually 3 out of 7, still a high number.

 

[biswa]

One thing I don't understand in this thread are the pointed remarks about girls getting educated and having an IT career. I can understand the concern about loss of tradition and the fear of ICM. However would you really prefer that the TB girls drop out of school, marry early and sit at home counting their children?

 

[biswa]

Brahmins should not make the mistake of parsis. We should accept into the brahmin fold whoever wants to enter. In the past whole communities were accepted as brahmins by induction. Anyway it is argued by all that guna and karma also decide the varna. So it is possible to increase the numbers before critical size is reached.

Sarangji, this is a noble and intriguing thought. However how do we decide who is eligible to enter the Brahmin fold and who is not? If it is not by birth, is it by education, food habits, or just by marriage? What conditions do the converts have to satisfy and what perks do they get?

 

[venkat2206]

One thing I don't understand in this thread are the pointed remarks about girls getting educated and having an IT career. I can understand the concern about loss of tradition and the fear of ICM. However would you really prefer that the TB girls drop out of school, marry early and sit at home counting their children?

No Sir, the point here is to highlight that most of the members of this forum are reasonably educted and having a good family life with their childrent. However, it is the attitude of the childrent - who are reluctant to come into married life , having child etc. In the earlier days education gave us economic independence. With the economic independence, we educated our children to select the courses they want. After completion of eduction and got into employement, they are under the impression that with newly acquired economic independence or career oppourtunities, they think that they can do wharever they want and started having disbelief in having married life at an appropriate age.

In the olden days the marriage age was less than 20. In the next generation, the average age has gone upto 28-30 for male and 24-26 for girls. Now a days there are no such things and even at the age late twenties or in thirties, girls are not willing to thinik about this. This is a sad situation and needs improvements.

Venkat K

 

[biswa]

Yes Venkatji, I agree with the facts you presented about marriage age gradually increasing. This phenomenon is true throughout the whole world, not just in one community. With more education people marry late and have fewer children. That is just a fact of life, and I don't see what is particularly wrong with it.

There are however a couple of things problematic with late marriage and late children.

1. Loss of fertility with age coupled with radiation from computer screens. It is no accident that fertility is low among IT couples.
2. Difficulty in bringing up children who arrive late. If a child is born when the parent is 40, they may retire by the time the child finishes college. It is certainly harder to play cricket with one's son at 40 than at 25.
3. Missing grandparents. Unfortunately another fact of life is that children who are born late may not interact or even see their grandparents.

These considerations are far removed from the minds of youngsters who are chasing the happy life at 25. Perhaps they can be brought up if the parents can have a free and frank discussion with their grown-up children. That is something not very common in Indian households.

 

[sarang]

Well, the simple answer is 'wish and intense longing'.

Other forms of conversion - bribe, blackmail, terror - are not our forte.

If one does not want to convert, what is the need? When A R Rehman's mother converted to islam, he and and his younger sister converted, but his elder sister remained a hindu.

Sarangji, this is a noble and intriguing thought. However how do we decide who is eligible to enter the Brahmin fold and who is not? If it is not by birth, is it by education, food habits, or just by marriage? What conditions do the converts have to satisfy and what perks do they get?

 

[sarang]

Hindus, from time immemorial, converted to other religions and came back to sanatana dharma . There was a generous traffic of brahmins to budhdhism and jainism and back. The individual or a group who were convinced on other traditions did migrate. Sanatana dharma never put any restriction on ideas or following a tradition. There are many like to Satya Sai Baba who say all religions are same and jesus is krishna etc; they look from the vedantic angle; catch pope or ayatollah saying something similar.

"I am trying to convert Hindus back to Hindu religion and that will stop Hindus
getting converted to other religions." -- Swami Chinmayananda

The couple will do what they want to do depending on their conviction and what their guru says.

I feel if anyone wants to follow Sanathana Dharma, he/she need not convert.
Just follow the tenets side by side with their pre existing religion.

I am never happy to see "converts"..cos just imagine if this pic was an Indian Hindu couple converting to some other religion everyone will be crying "O Dharma is on the decline..blah blah blah".

Why have double standards?

That's why I like Sathya Sai Baba's teachings..He never asks anyone to abandon their original religion and in Puttaparthi during each each religious festivals like Eid,Christmas,Chinese New Year etc..all cultural and religious principles of variuos religions are given importance.

Devotees from the West might recite Vedas flawlessly and at the same time do NOT abandon worship of Jesus Christ.

They just know that its Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.


Lets hope that the couple in the picture above do not abandon their original religion.

 

[prasad1]

Sarangji, this is a noble and intriguing thought. However how do we decide who is eligible to enter the Brahmin fold and who is not? If it is not by birth, is it by education, food habits, or just by marriage? What conditions do the converts have to satisfy and what perks do they get?

More important fact is this converted Brahmin accepted as Brahmin by other TB's. Will a TB in Chennai accept am Anglo-sexton brahmin as pujari?

 

[sarang]

Utakal university degree is not accepted by madras university; andhra university degree is not accepted by harvard; manipal degrees were looked down long ago because it was perceived that degrees were bought. Now, manipal institutions are top rung, because the alumni have established its status. The neo brahmin influx too by their merit, behaviour and conformance may do the same. If we can wind back to pre british days, the caste discrimination issue may evaporate.

 

[vikrama]

Many TB families have come to accept their NB SILs on a par with their TB SILs. If the NB SIL is willing and deserving, why don't we perform an upanayanam for him and accept him as TB?

 

[Raji Ram]

Many TB families have come to accept their NB SILs on a par with their TB SILs. If the NB SIL is willing and deserving, why don't we perform an upanayanam for him and accept him as TB?

Dear Sir,

Most of the TB girls want to get away from brahmin customs (leave alone Madi and AchAram) and choose NB spouses.

So, we may have to convert her as a TB girl first!

 

[prasad1]

Many TB families have come to accept their NB SILs on a par with their TB SILs. If the NB SIL is willing and deserving, why don't we perform an upanayanam for him and accept him as TB?

A family member girl married an Anglo-sexton American in an Ashram here in USA. The swamiji did upanayanam for the boy before marriage. The boy even today does Sandyanavandanam and just changed his poonal. The kids all have Hindu names. He is studying Gita, and attends Bhajan classes. To me he is more Brahmin than lot of born-brahmins.

Another family member born-brahmin never left India, but eats meat, and refuses to come for any pujas, and makes fun of the ways of his parents. To me he is not a Brahmin.

So who is Brahmin, and what is it that we are trying to preserve?

 

[vgane]

The TB families try to follow our culture to the best of their abilities...But our children do not understand or appreciate because we hardly take them to temples or make them read material that would help them understanding the meanings and significance of rituals & the mantras...

For the Avani avittam function that I attended recently in Gurgaon there were more than 100 persons....There were lots of young boys who were reciting the mantras...It was not a public holiday, yet the nos were significant...We still have the religious bent of mind in almost 90% of the brahmins...But there is no guarantee that our children would not run amok

What is required is introspection by the community...We may have the education & employment; but if we loose the roots of our culture then we would be the ultimate losers

 

[renuka]

The TB families try to follow our culture to the best of their abilities...But our children do not understand or appreciate because we hardly take them to temples or make them read material that would help them understanding the meanings and significance of rituals & the mantras...

For the Avani avittam function that I attended recently in Gurgaon there were more than 100 persons....There were lots of young boys who were reciting the mantras...It was not a public holiday, yet the nos were significant...We still have the religious bent of mind in almost 90% of the brahmins...But there is no guarantee that our children would not run amok

What is required is introspection by the community...We may have the education & employment; but if we loose the roots of our culture then we would be the ultimate losers

We should not assume that children won't or do not understand anything.
It is becos the adults themselves do not take the initiative to learn and understand and have this attitude of "don't ask too many questions..just follow".

I see no problems here in the Bal Vikas classes run by my father.

We adults should make the attempt to teach children and children are like sponges..they will suck up all knowledge.

 

[renuka]

A family member girl married an Anglo-sexton American in an Ashram here in USA. The swamiji did upanayanam for the boy before marriage. The boy even today does Sandyanavandanam and just changed his poonal. The kids all have Hindu names. He is studying Gita, and attends Bhajan classes. To me he is more Brahmin than lot of born-brahmins.

Another family member born-brahmin never left India, but eats meat, and refuses to come for any pujas, and makes fun of the ways of his parents. To me he is not a Brahmin.

So who is Brahmin, and what is it that we are trying to preserve?

Dear Prasad ji,

Why does anyone need to be classified as a Guna Brahmin or Birth Brahmin to start with?

Ok take me for example:

I am pure veg.

Addicted to Sanskrit and Religious text..never a day passes by where I do not read some religious text.

I have intense interest to pursue more religious understanding.

But I do not consider any of these are being Brahminical in behavior..I just consider myself as being Hindu.

So the best is we should stop trying to define who is Brahmin and who is not.

We can't really preserve anything...Lord Vishnu is the Preserver for the Cosmos.
It's His Job!LOL

 

[tbs]

We should not assume that children won't or do not understand anything.
It is becos the adults themselves do not take the initiative to learn and understand and have this attitude of "don't ask too many questions..just follow".

I see no problems here in the Bal Vikas classes run by my father.

We adults should make the attempt to teach children and children are like sponges..they will suck up all knowledge.

hi renu
im part of Bal Vihar in USA.....more than 200 children are studying religion/culture/languages here in USA....these second/third

generation of indian immigrants.....there are some white american students are studying our religion....both parents are

white americans.....

 

[manoharkumar]

Dear Mr.Vgane,

i totally agree with you and believe that more than 100 would have attended the upakarma in gurgaon. While i was in Delhi during he 70's one Sri.Rama srouthrigal used to have this done in a grand fashion in one of the parks called Pooja Park in Karolbagh area. There used to be huge crowds irrespective of working or holiday. People used to sit and recite the Veda along with him and disburse with prasadam. I am sure Mr.prasad/Mr.london swaminathan can vouch for bigger gatherings at their place for the function.

In chennai in the recent upakarma i could see major of the crowd only the above 40's & 50's at the Sankara madam. Younger ones were missing. Dont know where the fault lies with the parent who did not force his son/G.son to come to the function or the importance of the yagnobaveedham & gayathri not accepted by the younger ones!!

It is also seen that yagnobaveedham is itself being done for the offspring just before the marriage in some household!!!

No cheers!!

 

[guruvayurappan]

Yes Sir, I agree it is an imagination - but the point is reluctance and views of some of the educated girls towards marriage and children. Even in our own house, we were 8 (brothers and sisters). For all eight of us now there are only 10 children (6X1+2x2). How many children will be there for these 10 - my imagination gone like this.

Venkat K

dear venkat !
in olden days minimum 6 children . nowadays they stop with 1. i suggest to my wards to have at least two without stopping with single . i also not for 3.
guruvayurappan

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Post 39 is quite thought provoking supported by real life instances. Thank you, prasad1ji.

I think the Brahmin community earned its respect because of the knowledge it possessed. But knowledge brought with it pedantry and superiority complex. In the meantime, Vedic knowledge sort of became redundant and subjects of economic value gained importance. Other communities have also proved to be equally good, if not better in these subjects. So, Brahmins have become ordinary. But their past pride does not allow accepting the reality.

The other issue is strict rules were prescribed for Brahmins, e.g., no alcohol, no meat, discipline, fasting, praying, rituals, etc. Brahmins of today do not want such a hardship. Many of them also indulge in all the vices and do not even wear the poonool leave along doing sandhya vandanam. It has been long time since many Brahmins left the habit of doing tharpanams and shraardhams. But still they want to be accorded special status just because they are born Brahmins.

Most Brahmins do not choose the profession of priest by choice. They do not even want to have marriage alliances with such priests. But yet, they take pride that they are the priest community. Why this hypocrisy?

In today’s world, nothing makes a born Brahmin superior to his/her fellow beings. It is time Brahmins accept it.

vgane has a point in post 40:
“What is required is introspection by the community...We may have the education & employment; but if we lose the roots of our culture then we would be the ultimate losers”.

 

[renuka]

dear venkat !
in olden days minimum 6 children . nowadays they stop with 1. i suggest to my wards to have at least two without stopping with single . i also not for 3.
guruvayurappan

6?? OMG! it is not easy to have so many kids.

Childbirth takes a toll on mother's well being too.
Further more with too many children..they need to share all resources and all we can provide for them is education and nothing else.

Lesser children means more for the child to inherit and also less stress for the mother.

I stopped at one child.

 

[tbs]

6?? OMG! it is not easy to have so many kids.

Childbirth takes a toll on mother's well being too.
Further more with too many children..they need to share all resources and all we can provide for them is education and nothing else.

Lesser children means more for the child to inherit and also less stress for the mother.

I stopped at one child.

hi renu
my father had 7 brothers/5 sisters together....even my grand ma and her daughter delivered same time....means my athai's son

and my chithappa are same age....we are more than 35 cousins together......can u imagine a joint family for some family function?

now im here with 2 kids....

 

[renuka]

hi renu
my father had 7 brothers/5 sisters together....even my grand ma and her daughter delivered same time....means my athai's son

and my chithappa are same age....we are more than 35 cousins together......can u imagine a joint family for some family function?

now im here with 2 kids....

TBS garu..we have to face the fact that in those days no one practiced contraception, working hours were shorter, no traffic jams,TV did not have so many channels,no internet etc..so people had much more time for things we do not have time for now!!LOL Ha Ha Ha..

 

[prasad1]

Haridasa,
Very profound and well written post. It is a reality check, and I am happy the younger generation is not stuck in mud.