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Let us reclaim our rights

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Vidya balan!? May be punjabi!

I don't get it..why are you guys making it sound as if TB girls are always chasing after Non TB guys??

In the game of love..both play and both can win.

In yesteryears girls did not work outside home..so they never met people besides relatives.

These days girl work outside home and meet the outside world and fall in love.

So I don't think Vidya chased a Punjabi guy..Vidya and the Punju fell in LOVE!

As far as I know most Indian girls(PIO's included) hardly make the first move when it comes to getting to know a male.

It is in the upbringing to always wait for males to make the 1st move..even in the animal kingdom its is the male that chases the females.

Testerone chases..Estrogen waits and nurtures that's nature.

So I feel we all should stop using the word Girls Chasing after Guys cos it makes it sound as if girls are a desperate lot when in reality all they did was just fall in love.

Is falling in love a crime?? I don't think so.

Note: I am no fan of Vidya Balan but I don't feel right to read as if she ran after the Punjabi.
I am sure Punju liked her too.
Love is all about chased by the male,reciprocating if we like him and waiting to be caught for life in wedded bliss.
 
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Well; that is sanatana dharma. Paramatma is born in any varna, kula or as any 'chit'.

Well...no..
That is Maya that makes us believe that Paramatma actually belongs to Varna/Kula etc.

The human mind sometimes has to humanize even God to even try to comprehend Him(if possible).
 
Not for me. There is no maya.

Paramatma and jeevatma play the varna/jati roles. Krishna too is a yadava, Rama is a kshtriya, and Vamana a brahmin.

Well...no..
That is Maya that makes us believe that Paramatma actually belongs to Varna/Kula etc.

The human mind sometimes has to humanize even God to even try to comprehend Him(if possible).
 
Not for me. There is no maya.

Paramatma and jeevatma play the varna/jati roles. Krishna too is a yadava, Rama is a kshtriya, and Vamana a brahmin.

Maya Manusha Vesha Leeladhara is self explanatory that God dons a role due to Maya and we think He is just like one of us humans.
 
When shivaji ganesan plays the role of a tambram iyer, he is an iyer for the duration of the play for all. There is no maya in this.

Maya Manusha Vesha Leeladhara is self explanatory that God dons a role due to Maya and we think He is just like one of us humans.
 
When shivaji ganesan plays the role of a tambram iyer, he is an iyer for the duration of the play for all. There is no maya in this.

What no maya??

The screen that the image falls on is Maya.
The screen makes us believe that the image is real.
The projector is the mind.
God is the Sutradhara.
 
My reference is to a play acted on the stage.
Still, the screen is real. The projector is real. The actors played the part and in the studio, and that is real. There is no maya anywhere. Only you are using different tools to see areal event, by front projection in cinema screen and rear projection in a tv screen.

All achit vastus are real and exist.

What no maya??

The screen that the image falls on is Maya.
The screen makes us believe that the image is real.
The projector is the mind.
God is the Sutradhara.
 
Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 51

I agree with you. But then right from the beginning - the OP itself was horribly warped.

Now, the "Thread" is all knitted and knotted !

Yay Yem
 
My reference is to a play acted on the stage.
Still, the screen is real. The projector is real. The actors played the part and in the studio, and that is real. There is no maya anywhere. Only you are using different tools to see areal event, by front projection in cinema screen and rear projection in a tv screen.

All achit vastus are real and exist.

Dear Sarangji,

Are you a Vaishnavite?
 
Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 51

I agree with you. But then right from the beginning - the OP itself was horribly warped.

Now, the "Thread" is all knitted and knotted !

Yay Yem

Dear AM ji,

That is what an axe is for! to remove all the knitted knots!LOL

687px-Battle_axe_medieval.svg.png

taken from Google Images
 
I have a question...what about all those who claim kshatriya lineage..must they too reclaim their rights and start ruling again and regain their lost kingdoms?
 
I have a question...what about all those who claim kshatriya lineage..must they too reclaim their rights and start ruling again and regain their lost kingdoms?
There are no Kshatriyas in South India (also not present in North India for that matter). There were only chieftains and kings who arose from the common classes; but with positions of social power (due to land holding) claimed to be brahmins.

The last ruling groups of present region of tamilnadu were nayaks and marathas. Even the nayaks despite their non-brahmin lowly origins claimed to be brahmins. The marathas being more recent than the nayaks had little luck for they were eclipsed by the self-claimed 'brahmin' peshwas; and had to hence settle for claims of kshatriyahood. The legitimate descendants of erstwhile chieftains are most likely the smartas of today.

IMO, the descendants of vijayanagar and nayaks merged most probably into the vadamas, niyogis, and madhavas of today (krishnadeva raya himself had converted to a madhava; and it appears part of his family; and many officers of his court had followed suit).

Those who fought and gained land control required 'laws' to administer a territory. They were the law-makers. They were very likely not temple (agamic) priests who got represented as devalaygan (as they are called in manusmriti) in a lowly position in their 'dharma'shastra.

The agamic priests were just wise men (priests or shamans of tribal periods, village sorcerers, etc) who were converted or elevated into temple-associated service functions as brahmins (this happened all thru since the Pallava times). Most were just native and regional. The agamic priests (such as gurukkals) were looked down upon (sometimes with poorly concealed contempt even in colonial period) by smarthas (who claimed to be 'vedic brahmins', or 'vedic sacrificing brahmins').

Nevertheless, there appears to be a strange connection (imo) between certain specific shaktas and shaivas agamic groups with Smartas (who most likely imo arose from a section of pashupatas, ganapatyas, koumaras, and Devi-worshiping tantrics). Agamic groups are not homogeneous either in culture or in origin. One agamic group was almost always inimical to another (as was the case even between the pancharatras and vaikhanasas). The Smarta form of unification of 6 deities (of which only Vishnu is Vedic and the rest Agamic or tribal), imo was political.

With social power the rulership got to claim fanciful origins (from Yayati or Brahma or whoever they pleased); and got fanciful things composed. The 'brahmin' kings / chieftains had harems; and produced so-called Raja putras; a chunk of which are the middle castes of today (am not using the term Rajput since it indicates a supposed community of today, although the harem origin holds true for them).

Back then, rights depended on ruling power. World over, people went to war to seize land control (fertile land, fresh water) and on settling in such a land, fought to protect their sovereignty therein. The Jews fought so hard against Philistines precisely because they did not want to be conquered and made into slaves (shudras) again (their freedom from slavery under egyptian pharoes was as such hard earned by Moses). When defeated, a group lost its ritual rights and hence its identity. If luck wud have it, sometimes they regained it, albeit perhaps at times only nominally or differently.

For all we know the Madhyana Paraiyans (a so-called 'subsect' of Iyers) may be descendants of Pallava chieftains, who possibly were demoted into Paraiyans (outcastes) during the Chola heyday but regained part of their ritual status after the Chola downfall. So did perhaps a certain regional Vaishnava brahmin grouping.

In an advanced time period; in a secular democratic world of today; it perhaps makes no sense to speak of regaining or reclaiming of rights. Instead, empowering all people would include giving up rigidity of birth-based positions, be it reservations in academic institutions or in veda patshalas.
 
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In present day Tamilnadu, there are several non-brahmin caste groups who claim they are (were) the orginial kshatriyas and descendants of Chera, Chozha, and Pandyas - the mooventhars. The mukkulathors, the devendrakula vellalars, the vanniyars, the nadars to name a few - all claim kshatriya lineage and present various evidences to support their claim. The same groups, which enjoy reservation by claiming that they were victims of historic oppression through caste system, are also proud of their kshatriya lineage. I think the theory that there were only two groups - brahmins and Shudras, which is a false theory IMO, was propagated mainly to abrogate power and marginalize brahmins by demonizing them. Once this has been accomplished and these caste groups secured preferential treatment for themselves, they all claim glorious historical past for themselves.
 
Bravo Mr. Accelerator, well said! But what's the deal with Assamese Iyers? If they want to call themselves Sharmas or Goswamis, so be it. What's in a name?

What I meant to say is exactly this: If a TB chooses to go settle in the North East, eventually adopts some part of their cultural affiliations but chooses to retain the Iyer name, what's wrong with that either? :D

These things really don't matter, things keep changing....:)

biswa said:
XLR8R I have to disagree with your statement that SI B girls are chasing money though

I have erred in my previous post, what I really meant to say is that I feel south Indian girls in general (brahmin or not) have a tendency to place a bigger importance on money than others, that is why I said it is more of a south Indian problem than a brahmin tendency. It probably has to do with mobility like you said, and chances are that southern girls are more well educated and socially established than north Indian girls, so they might be either "full of it" or having greater expectations. In my own personal experience I found that among all the qualities desired in a man, money comes "higher" on the list for south Indian (esp. Tamil and Malayali) girls when comparing to the rest of India (where money is still important but it comes lower down the list).

There is a secondary problem here that I know a lot of boys who also think their wife should be less qualified and younger than himself, a possibly egoistic thought fed to them by the parents (like I said, we are not giving our kids the proper upbringing). I personally don't believe in all this and only believe in the agreement of mindset. If we cast aside ego, a lot of good things can happen in marriage (for e.g. it is stupid to think that a woman older than myself will age faster etc. - we don't marry just because someone's a stunner in terms of looks and aging is different for every person anyway).

Raghy said:
Now my daughter is 20. She did not grow up in south India. Her preferences are very different.

Raghy, where do you live? I have also observed the TB girls outside south India aren't all that much demanding like TB girls in Tamil Nadu.

கால பைரவன் said:
Only now did I realize that XLR8R is read as accelerator! Fun stuff!

The ID is part of my old days when I used to play a lot of computer games. Those days are almost over now, sadly, as I get busier and busier while getting older :)

renuka said:
As far as I know most Indian girls(PIO's included) hardly make the first move when it comes to getting to know a male.

Oddly, these days I have seen many North Indian/East Indian girls making move after move on boys. Because everyone is so busy these days, you cannot really expect that someone is going to have time to run after you. It makes sense for both boys and girls to try the first move. I really appreciate that the girl has guts to say she likes me :P

In any case, for south Indian girls, I find they often don't even make the second, third or nth move, which is really irritating to many boys. They ought to change that (not that I have problems, but still) :D
 
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Recently I interviewed a candidate from Chennai. Should I have enquired about his caste before making the decision whether or not to hire him? Now I feel bad ...

and

Hmm, unfortunately the job was not for a position in India. Everybody regardless of caste is happy to emigrate you know.

So to make the hiring decision, first I have to figure whether it is suitable to hire Indian or not Indian, then whether Tamil or Kannadiga (the candidate was in Blore but had an address in Chennai), Brahmin or non Brahmin, Shaivite or Vaishnavite.

Only then if I have time I should consider the technical capabilities of the candidate and maybe not for more than 10% of the grade. No wonder the public sector in India has gone down the drain. That will also be the case for private undertakings who hire based on sectarianism rather than ability.

Thank you for using the term "caste blind". I like that!

Hmmmm... Such smugness when a probable model was suggested to help the limping community.

The following companies boasted throughout their existence of their cutting edge in competition and meritocracy. Needless to say MERIT was the sole criterion while hiring the employees, recruiting the supervisors, appointing the managers and selecting the Board members. Also they were supervised by the "merit only" regulatory bodies:

1. Lehman Brothers
2. Bear Sterns
3. Washington Mutual Bank

Of course there are 100s of other "too big to fail" institutions like AIG, Freddie Mac, Fanny May etc. which are being nursed by the bail out package funded by the tax payers.

I am delighted to be in the company of "Meritists", what if a few millions world-wide had a burning hole in their pockets to fund my merit?

The list is only very very brief. Just for the list of banks that have failed inspite of "merit" and that in the great U S of A, just browse:
List of bank failures in the United States (2008
 
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There are no Kshatriyas in South India (also not present in North India for that matter). There were only chieftains and kings who arose from the common classes; but with positions of social power (due to land holding) claimed to be brahmins.

The last ruling groups of present region of tamilnadu were nayaks and marathas. Even the nayaks despite their non-brahmin lowly origins claimed to be brahmins. The marathas being more recent than the nayaks had little luck for they were eclipsed by the self-claimed 'brahmin' peshwas; and had to hence settle for claims of kshatriyahood. The legitimate descendants of erstwhile chieftains are most likely the smartas of today.

IMO, the descendants of vijayanagar and nayaks merged most probably into the vadamas, niyogis, and madhavas of today (krishnadeva raya himself had converted to a madhava; and it appears part of his family; and many officers of his court had followed suit).

Those who fought and gained land control required 'laws' to administer a territory. They were the law-makers. They were very likely not temple (agamic) priests who got represented as devalaygan (as they are called in manusmriti) in a lowly position in their 'dharma'shastra.

The agamic priests were just wise men (priests or shamans of tribal periods, village sorcerers, etc) who were converted or elevated into temple-associated service functions as brahmins (this happened all thru since the Pallava times). Most were just native and regional. The agamic priests (such as gurukkals) were looked down upon (sometimes with poorly concealed contempt even in colonial period) by smarthas (who claimed to be 'vedic brahmins', or 'vedic sacrificing brahmins').

Nevertheless, there appears to be a strange connection (imo) between certain specific shaktas and shaivas agamic groups with Smartas (who most likely imo arose from a section of pashupatas, ganapatyas, koumaras, and Devi-worshiping tantrics). Agamic groups are not homogeneous either in culture or in origin. One agamic group was almost always inimical to another (as was the case even between the pancharatras and vaikhanasas). The Smarta form of unification of 6 deities (of which only Vishnu is Vedic and the rest Agamic or tribal), imo was political.

With social power the rulership got to claim fanciful origins (from Yayati or Brahma or whoever they pleased); and got fanciful things composed. The 'brahmin' kings / chieftains had harems; and produced so-called Raja putras; a chunk of which are the middle castes of today (am not using the term Rajput since it indicates a supposed community of today, although the harem origin holds true for them).

Back then, rights depended on ruling power. World over, people went to war to seize land control (fertile land, fresh water) and on settling in such a land, fought to protect their sovereignty therein. The Jews fought so hard against Philistines precisely because they did not want to be conquered and made into slaves (shudras) again (their freedom from slavery under egyptian pharoes was as such hard earned by Moses). When defeated, a group lost its ritual rights and hence its identity. If luck wud have it, sometimes they regained it, albeit perhaps at times only nominally or differently.

For all we know the Madhyana Paraiyans (a so-called 'subsect' of Iyers) may be descendants of Pallava chieftains, who possibly were demoted into Paraiyans (outcastes) during the Chola heyday but regained part of their ritual status after the Chola downfall. So did perhaps a certain regional Vaishnava brahmin grouping.

In an advanced time period; in a secular democratic world of today; it perhaps makes no sense to speak of regaining or reclaiming of rights. Instead, empowering all people would include giving up rigidity of birth-based positions, be it reservations in academic institutions or in veda patshalas.

Epilogue: "Empowering all people would include giving up the rigidity of birth-based positions, be it reservations in academic institutions or veda patasalas"--Yes. But the target group should have the genetic receptors to accept and consciously choose sAtvic goals through sAtvic routes. There we may come across problems. A predominently rajasic/tamasic but secular and cosmopolitan individual when given the technological wherewithals to make a WMD will sure make it and drop it on innocent masses a la Nagasaki. So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct. Think about it without getting mired in the caste prejudices. It will make sense.

Cheers.
 
If reservation is revoked and reference to caste is removed from all government documents, all will revert to their original varna status.

கால பைரவன்;182220 said:
In present day Tamilnadu, there are several non-brahmin caste groups who claim they are (were) the orginial kshatriyas and descendants of Chera, Chozha, and Pandyas - the mooventhars. The mukkulathors, the devendrakula vellalars, the vanniyars, the nadars to name a few - all claim kshatriya lineage and present various evidences to support their claim. The same groups, which enjoy reservation by claiming that they were victims of historic oppression through caste system, are also proud of their kshatriya lineage. I think the theory that there were only two groups - brahmins and Shudras, which is a false theory IMO, was propagated mainly to abrogate power and marginalize brahmins by demonizing them. Once this has been accomplished and these caste groups secured preferential treatment for themselves, they all claim glorious historical past for themselves.
 
New readers may go thru this thread -- http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7318-wikipedia-article-about-kerala-iyers-8.html

The theory that in Kaliyuga there are only 2 classes - brahmana and shudra - was attested to by brahmin pandits themselves in colonial courts (not by any other group). Several groups sought to elevate themselves in colonial period with kshatriya claims. Not a single group in south india got lucky (neither did claimants in bengal presidency and bombay presidency). Nobody could produce evidence of any sort. Claims made by the mukkulathors, devendrakula vellalars, vanniyars, nadars, etc, are just claims. Some details are in this thread also- http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ts-aarakshan-reservation-debate-resuming.html
 
If palindrome is happy hindu, I believe, on a similar issue, it was shown that Rajaraja Chola claims that cholas are kshatriyas descended from surya.

There are many kshatriya and vaishya associations, and dharmasals with the vaishya- kshatriya status prominently stated in the name boards.

Let us get back to the old system with each group managing its own affairs, and live and work in harmony with other varnas, as in the past.

In Leicester, UK, even though one gurudwara is sufficient for the population size, there are amny based on caste lines. And there is a tall claim that sikhism does not recognize caste based division.
 
The story of Kshatriyas in India is mainly one of licentiousness and debauchery. If they had done their duty as per the vedas-showing valour in war and dying in the comkbat rather than giving in-India would not have been ruled by the hoardes that came from the persia, mongolia and from the British Isles. It is a story of a miserable failure of Kshatriyas. With a fertile land and its unfailing cycle of monsoons and crops and the riches, they spent their good times in drinking, collecting a large number of women in harems and spending time with them. They did nothing valorous when the enemies came and knocked at the doors. They compromised, entered into treaties and purchased peace by parting with land and their women from inside and outside their harems. The poor brahmins, though were knowledgeable, had to withdraw themselves into a cocoon to survive and others never really mattered as they were marginalised. This is the sordid social history of India, which will never be told and even if told will never be accepted because of the numbers and predominance of kshatriyas and their side kicks in the society.

Cheers.
 
If palindrome is happy hindu, I believe, on a similar issue, it was shown that Rajaraja Chola claims that cholas are kshatriyas descended from surya.

There are many kshatriya and vaishya associations, and dharmasals with the vaishya- kshatriya status prominently stated in the name boards.

Let us get back to the old system with each group managing its own affairs, and live and work in harmony with other varnas, as in the past.

In Leicester, UK, even though one gurudwara is sufficient for the population size, there are amny based on caste lines. And there is a tall claim that sikhism does not recognize caste based division.
Krishnadeva Raya claimed descent from Yayati (even though he was the illegitimate son of a dasi). The victorious got to write history (viz, just their own account of claims). About Cholas, the point was already discussed -- http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7717-racism-u-s-15.html

All things got tagged with the terms Kshatriya and Vaishya from the colonial period onwards.

There is no such thing as harmony in Varna (a)dharma.

On the point of Sikhism, note caste (jati) is not varna (see this); though in certain situations, caste could have got just as oppressive.
 
The story of Kshatriyas in India is mainly one of licentiousness and debauchery. If they had done their duty as per the vedas-showing valour in war and dying in the comkbat rather than giving in-India would not have been ruled by the hoardes that came from the persia, mongolia and from the British Isles. It is a story of a miserable failure of Kshatriyas. With a fertile land and its unfailing cycle of monsoons and crops and the riches, they spent their good times in drinking, collecting a large number of women in harems and spending time with them. They did nothing valorous when the enemies came and knocked at the doors. They compromised, entered into treaties and purchased peace by parting with land and their women from inside and outside their harems. The poor brahmins, though were knowledgeable, had to withdraw themselves into a cocoon to survive and others never really mattered as they were marginalised. This is the sordid social history of India, which will never be told and even if told will never be accepted because of the numbers and predominance of kshatriyas and their side kicks in the society.

Cheers.

What happened to Dronacharya types of Brahmins to fight with the invaders?

Many Kings had Brahmin advisers and ministers so what happened that the invaders got the upper hand as to invade.

I can only think that some Kings would have listened to some astrologer or some priest and was advised to do some Homa instead of preparing for war right away....with all the smoke signals(becos of the Homa) the enemy must have known "Oh these guys are planning to attack after the Homa..so lets get them now when the Homa is going on!LOL"
 
and



Hmmmm... Such smugness when a probable model was suggested to help the limping community.

The following companies boasted throughout their existence of their cutting edge in competition and meritocracy. Needless to say MERIT was the sole criterion while hiring the employees, recruiting the supervisors, appointing the managers and selecting the Board members. Also they were supervised by the "merit only" regulatory bodies:

1. Lehman Brothers
2. Bear Sterns
3. Washington Mutual Bank

Of course there are 100s of other "too big to fail" institutions like AIG, Freddie Mac, Fanny May etc. which are being nursed by the bail out package funded by the tax payers.

I am delighted to be in the company of "Meritists", what if a few millions world-wide had a burning hole in their pockets to fund my merit?

The list is only very very brief. Just for the list of banks that have failed inspite of "merit" and that in the great U S of A, just browse:
List of bank failures in the United States (2008

The meritorious ones when they work for a salary follow goals set by top management. Is it your contention that the All the Directors on the Board of all these banks who failed were all meritorious? They were money bags and that gave them their position. When the over reaching hunger for profit ( whatever means are followed the end should somehow be reached) which drove them to structure logically brilliant but business sense-wise stupid and manipulative, original in conception but devious and devilish in content and execution financial products, the driving forces and the power behind them were not merit but the greedy and stupid Directors on Board. They engineered a marvelous balance sheet reconstruction by converting good and bad assets into liabilities through the medium of SPVs(special purpose vehicles) and the bonds became junk in no time. The rating agencies were all purchased in the game. What we witnessed was the stinking story of bank failures. Merit had nothing to do with this failures other than the structuring of the conversion of the assets into liabilities. The rest was the story of the crowd of jackals (the rajasic minded stupid "higher caste chieftains" in their board rooms) and how they planned and executed the bankruptcy. In India too we are witnessing such a scenario today. Only the name of the game is different. Here there is no conversion and issue of bonds. The name is different. It is called loan restructuring. This is used today to cosmetically touch up the balance sheets of banks. The asset once restructured overnight becomes a good one(till yesterday it might have beena bad one) and the bank gets its rewards in two ways. One is that its provisioning requirements come down and the pressure on profit is less. It can happily distribute the profit among its share holders. Two is that it actually recognize the interest debited as income earned and this makes its profit attractive. Untill next year closing time you can go home happily and pat yourselves for having managed the Bank very well. Poor chartered Accountants can be browbeated and they will sign on the dotted line or will create a suitable dotted line and then sign it too. In all this game there is no where merit playing any role. It is all greed, power, scheming and cheating that are playing a sterling role. This happened in US, UK(Nick Leeson case) and is happening in India. Some one said we learn things very quickly. Yes indeed.

cheers.
 
What happened to Dronacharya types of Brahmins to fight with the invaders?
Many Kings had Brahmin advisers and ministers so what happened that the invaders got the upper hand as to invade.
I can only think that some Kings would have listened to some astrologer or some priest and was advised to do some Homa instead of preparing for war right away....with all the smoke signals(becos of the Homa) the enemy must have known "Oh these guys are planning to attack after the Homa..so lets get them now when the Homa is going on!LOL"

These kshatriyas were not the mahabharath kind. These were people who were showing their bravery and physical prowess inside theie harems and had no time to listen to any Dronacharya. The Dronacharyas in the beginning waited outside the doors of the harems to have the darshan of these kings but in course of times joined the singing side kicks of the harems to write the sahitya/lyrics for the songs they were singing. They had to survive. If you are familiar with the tamil poetry before the coming of Bharathi into the scene you will find evidence for what I am saying. Great Tamil poets(their kavithai was flawless and beautiful) were writing poetries about the exploits of their kings and chieftains(read kshatriyas) with the damsels held in the harems and we have volumes of such poetry in Tamil. This is what made Bharati declare "sol puthithu, porul puthithu" (words are new, contents are new is a rough translation for you as you can not read Tamil) about his poetry. These modern day Dronacharyas did not know about the smoke from homa but certainly knew that there has to be smoke in the kitchens of their home so that they and their family can keep their bodies and souls together. They also knew that without doing that they will be condemned to hell. It was a hobsons choice indeed. Poor souls.

Cheers.
 
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