The advocates of reservation close their eyes To see the fate of Indian Railways ,The post and Telegraphs,and the BSNL whose fate is nosediving and their prosperity is in peril.This is because the merit dedication hard working were given a go by in the name of reservation.Even if the member write hundreds of posts He will be their to see the above institutions handed over to private operators who will not provide reservation in recruitments.
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Meritocracy and Quotas
- Thread starter kunjuppu
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Auh,
I suggest an experiment. Lets take a kid from a vedapatshala and put him in a slum. Lets take a kid from a slum and put him in a vedapatshala. After 500 years, lets examine their descendents.
What do you think will be the end result?
I suggest an experiment. Lets take a kid from a vedapatshala and put him in a slum. Lets take a kid from a slum and put him in a vedapatshala. After 500 years, lets examine their descendents.
What do you think will be the end result?
Please google and find out for yourself. There are various books and lectures available on this. I am sure you can find it out.
I need not answer as what I have said is only a speculation. But since you always speak with proof, can you please elaborate how non-physical attributes that might be present in the genes could be identified?
S
ShivKC
Guest
Privatization of all these public sector wont put an end to the reservation. they govt would easily put another bill for reservation in private sector.
but, people on the other side claim that india has developed very much only during the reservation era. The economical success of T.N in the last 3 decades is shown as an evidence, where as this is the time span where T.N experienced the merit-man-drain & all many a tamil brahmins took exodus to delhi/dubai/mumbai/U.S. how TN fared well in the absence of brahmins?
in nutshell, there is no co-relation between meritocracy & achievements. For successful functioning of a society, it needs harmony not merit..
Speculation again
! Definitely you and I would not be there to examine their descendents (that is a certainity).Btw, I dont believe that anybody here decries the impact of the immediate environment, societal forces etc., in the behaviour of an individual.
All agraharams, in the old, were in the middle with NB colonies around them. Even now brahmins live in a diversified environment; the next door neighbour may be a muslim, christian or a dalit. Brahmins dont seem to grudge this, and they continue to co-exist.
I would like to know if any shudra's tongue was actually cut off because he argued with a brahmin.
Please read this carefully - Behavioral epigenetics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry, considering how much violence is there in the dharmashastras to supress women and shudras, it is simply not possible to accept "satvik genes" exist in brahmins. Instead most of these having a warrior origin are bound to have a variant of MAO-A. Lets test and see. Send your sample to familytreedna.com if you are curious.
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That will be a research and some 1000 of people has to asses the result But You and I are not eternal to see what will be the result.But What I have mentioned is the picture you can view in your life time.
This seems to be in the fledgling stage; interesting, but not enought evidence, for now.
There was even violence in the civilizations that did not have brahmins as a cultural setup; there is, even now. In your post #58 you have said that "Laws do not exist just like that. They exist because they were carried out". I apply the same wisdom here too - people have said about satvik not just like that. They are said to exist because they have seen people with those qualities. All great saints are said to have that.
As I said before I would not be surprised to find all humans sharing some commonalities. The difference is elsewhere, I believe.
You should have a special knack of reading the old scriptures. Any punishment prescribed for those other than brahmins were always real. Any benefits that the brahmins got were always real. Any punishment meted out to the brahmins if not downright mythological is at best allegoric. All rewards to non brahmins were merely hypothetical.
To give an example Shumbhaka episode was very real but Nachiketa episode of going to yama loka is just symbolic. You should be able to transform the incidences as "rules" or as "exceptions" just as the need demands.
For their all loud talks of historical evidence, they have not produced even a scrap of paper which says that manu smrithi was the accepted civil law in any of the kingdoms of the erstwhile Bharatha varsha.
Speculation again
Btw, I dont believe that anybody here decries the impact of the immediate environment, societal forces etc., in the behaviour of an individual.
All agraharams, in the old, were in the middle with NB colonies around them. Even now brahmins live in a diversified environment; the next door neighbour may be a muslim, christian or a dalit. Brahmins dont seem to grudge this, and they continue to co-exist.
Caste is the biggest experiment on mankind. We were not there when varna system started. We need not be there 500 years later. There will be people to study the effects.
Dharmashastras reflect survival instict of 'brahmins' -- these did everything in their capacity to keep a birth-based society to corner resources for themselves. Why?
When basic food, shelter and a conducive learning environment becomes available to any set of people, they will develop their abilities in a certain way. Hence, many children across the economic strata and various communities, including erstwhile dalits, do well in studies these days. But it will take time for the effects to reach out to many.
When basic necessities are not available, survival instinct takes over. The descendents of a brahmin kid who went to live in a slum will become exactly that way -- fighting for water, living in trash, trying to eek a living rag picking, struggling to cope, focus, not being able to study much. Or perhaps unable to cope, he may end his life.
This is where genetics may not help much. Environment does. Not everone with genes determining intelligence perform well in school (See this). Yet, it does affect results (See this).
Anyways, thanks to both of you for your replies. I must go now. Not sure I will be loging back in anytime soon.
But to think all brahmins have something called satvik genes (whatever it is though no such thing has been identified) is nothing but sheer ego. Esp, if one were to think satvik is a brahmin-exclusive thingy (ego self-massage effect). Not any different from other communities.
I agree.
<edited. kindly note, in a brahmin it is not a good idea to talk bad about brahmins. not everyone would ignore such posts.please refrain from posting such message again. - praveen>
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I think that this is a feeling, born out of perhaps, a dejection at the state of affairs today. I believe that caste has been used as a tool, by invaders, by colonists and by our very own people. This is just a tool in the fight for dominance; nothing more than that.
You think that the prescription for brahmins to lead an austere life (to eat by alms) is a survival instinct? I dont know how you say that brahmins "did everything in their capacity to keep a birth-based society to corner resources for themselves" when the prescription was a very austere life for them.
Perhaps they will, but we should not think that basic food, shelter and a conducive learning environment were not made available to dalits by brahmins (I am not saying that you did say that, but just...).
Speculation again. It can be either this or that or something else.
Thank you.
From what I have observed of the discussions, nobody seems to say that satvik is an exclusivity of the brahmin. They seem to say that this satvik quality is more commonly found in brahmins that it is found in the "others". There is no question of "sheer ego" here, I feel.
Nobody claims that brahmins are shimmering Gods. They are also human, of flesh and blood; they share common behaviours (with entire humanity) like eating, seeing, perceiving, digesting, sleeping, etc. They are also subject to passions and emotions and in this sense, corruption might as well be one of the fallouts.
Your argument is akin to saying that since a brahmin is supposed to be austere and not to be given into passions, he should not get any feelings of lust towards his woman.
Oh no, look up what Ramasamy Pitchappan said.
Uh Oh, what austere life? Read the dharmashastras anytime? Brahmins ate ample meat and all. They were given women as gifts for performing havans. Sometimes i wonder why did militant people have to copy rituals meant for sanyasis at all as though they are going to become sanyasis.
<edited. without proof do not speculate on the mutt and its gurus. Posting them as part of a discussion is fine if the necessary proofs are provided. - praveen>
Lets try you surviving without food, shelter, for a few days in a slum. Oh cmon its humanly not possible.
Thanks.
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Really? Well
(maybe you did not meet the ones i met, esp the northie ones, so we are both entitled to our opinions. since some folks are so self-absorbed, they cannot bother about public opinion, i suppose).Nope, you got it wrong. I don't think 'brahmins' were ever austere. No vadama, no niyogi, no chitpavan, no bhumihar lives an austere life. All military/ trader origin classes were always well-off, with lust as with everything else. The only ones austere were agamic temple priests.
I dont know who he is, but will look him up.
How can a "Matathipathi" opine against the Shastras? I feel that you should directly challenge the Matam for misquoting the Shastras. I believe in what my father has inculcated, which is from his father, and so on. I believe that we have an unbroken tradition, perhaps honed and tuned to the changing times, with the core (what that is, I need not know) intact. A fish does not need to know that it is required for the ecological balance. Maybe you can pullout umpteen verses and references to show brahmins otherwise, and perhaps they may be true or may be not. But then, as another poster has put it, if you believe the Shastras to be true, they surely you must believe in all the Gods and Godesses, and all the demons with it. If you dont believe, then you cannot use that as a reference merely to augment your point in a debate.
Why should I try this? Did I say anywhere to the effect that slum is a heaven and humans can withstand it? Why this taunt?
A few does not a crowd make.Really? Well
I thought we were talking about what was prescribed by the brahmins for them as a survival instinct. Suddenly you have leapt to the present. Sin this is only your thoughts, I will pass this.
He's heading the National Genographic project at madurai kamaraj U.
Why not? The way in which the mutt was setup itself was fraud. Lookup Vidyashankar sunderasan.
Why should I? The mutt will junk itself someday.
Let me know who was your earliest known ancestor, in which year did he live?
Sorry not a taunt, just to tell you its humanly not possible to avoid getting into the slum rut.
Sufficient to represent a crowd. Just as a few hundred samples are sufficient to understand a few things about some things. Just as the behavior of a few here reflects upon the whole community. All informed readers know how this site functions.
What was prescribed for brahmins? Eating meat, fish, drinking soma, getting women as dakshina for sacrifices, What is austere about this? They performed some havans, got a cush life, ate, drank, lived well. Copying rituals of an ascetic does not make them one.
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S
ShivKC
Guest
Just curious !! Is this a civil response (or) civil talk?
You are getting mixed up between objectivity and subjectivity. Whether the mutt would junk or not is not the crux of our discussion.
Why is this required?
I have not said that everybody should live in a slum !
? when did i say it is?
to know how far back in known history can you trace back your ancestors. This is required bcoz everyone says its from father to son, so lets know when the earliest known male of your dad's dad's line lived.
Cmon, neither did i. Don't you think you are the one getting mixed up here?
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Vaagmi
0
Palindrome’s argument in various posts and the replies thereto in blue fonts.:
In post #50:
1) What is satvik quality, please explain, does it include threatening and trashing? After all, even in Manusmriti the shudra's tongue was cut off if he so dared to argue with a brahmin. I do not see anything different happening here, even ages later.
The correct reply is there by auh in post #53. ‘Search and find your answers’ is the cryptic reply.
2) But if you are speaking of qualities supposedly dictated by genes of brahmins, you will have to explain from the genetics pov, how this is supposed to happen? Not by mere speculation as you have done. Behavioral genetics is a fast growing field, btw.
While genetics looks at the genes for evidence, anthropology looks at manifestations in large enough sample size of people for evidence. So we can not dismiss the findings of anthropologists as mere speculations as palindrome and her friend have done here.
Palindrome in post #52 raises this question:
3)I suggest an experiment. Lets take a kid from a vedapatshala and put him in a slum. Lets take a kid from a slum and put him in a vedapatshala. After 500 years, lets examine their descendents. What do you think will be the end result?
And replies in post #62:
When basic necessities are not available, survival instinct takes over.
The descendents of a brahmin kid who went to live in a slum will become exactly that way -- fighting for water, living in trash, trying to eek a living rag picking, struggling to cope, focus, not being able to study much. Or perhaps unable to cope, he may end his life.
Even when basic necessities are not available, with survival instinct in place, a Brahmin kid living in an agraharam does not fight for water but shares it with others and waits for its turn (satvik), does not live in trash but keeps its surrounding as clean as possible(satvik), does not do rag picking but assists the mother in making papads, distributes news papers or in the worst situation when there are too many members at home starving goes with a begging bowl to each house in the agraharam and collects a bikshai to feed them(satvik). In spite of all these weights pulling down it studies well or at least struggles to study well(satvik). It never ends its life(satvik).Those who live away from agraharams can not speak about the life in agraharams.
4) in 57 says:
Sorry, considering how much violence is there in the dharmashastras to supress women and shudras, it is simply not possible to accept "satvik genes" exist in brahmins.
Dharmasastras were not exclusive Brahmin sastras. They were society sastras. This big hole in the arguments by anti Brahmins has never been stitched up so far.
In 62 said:
5) Dharmashastras reflect survival instict of 'brahmins' -- these did everything in their capacity to keep a birth-based society to corner resources for themselves. Why?
It was not the survival instincts of Brahmins that devised the birth-based castes. The reply given by auh is to the point and demands an answer which is nor forthcoming.
6) said in 63
The most corrupt people i have seen in my life are brahmins. No empathy whatsoever in collecting the bribe. Not any different from other communities.
The most corrupt people I and many others here have seen in our life are not Brahmins. They ‘show’ a lot of empathy and sympathy but collect they do when it comes to bribe. Very different from Brahmins.
In post #50:
1) What is satvik quality, please explain, does it include threatening and trashing? After all, even in Manusmriti the shudra's tongue was cut off if he so dared to argue with a brahmin. I do not see anything different happening here, even ages later.
The correct reply is there by auh in post #53. ‘Search and find your answers’ is the cryptic reply.
2) But if you are speaking of qualities supposedly dictated by genes of brahmins, you will have to explain from the genetics pov, how this is supposed to happen? Not by mere speculation as you have done. Behavioral genetics is a fast growing field, btw.
While genetics looks at the genes for evidence, anthropology looks at manifestations in large enough sample size of people for evidence. So we can not dismiss the findings of anthropologists as mere speculations as palindrome and her friend have done here.
Palindrome in post #52 raises this question:
3)I suggest an experiment. Lets take a kid from a vedapatshala and put him in a slum. Lets take a kid from a slum and put him in a vedapatshala. After 500 years, lets examine their descendents. What do you think will be the end result?
And replies in post #62:
When basic necessities are not available, survival instinct takes over.
The descendents of a brahmin kid who went to live in a slum will become exactly that way -- fighting for water, living in trash, trying to eek a living rag picking, struggling to cope, focus, not being able to study much. Or perhaps unable to cope, he may end his life.
Even when basic necessities are not available, with survival instinct in place, a Brahmin kid living in an agraharam does not fight for water but shares it with others and waits for its turn (satvik), does not live in trash but keeps its surrounding as clean as possible(satvik), does not do rag picking but assists the mother in making papads, distributes news papers or in the worst situation when there are too many members at home starving goes with a begging bowl to each house in the agraharam and collects a bikshai to feed them(satvik). In spite of all these weights pulling down it studies well or at least struggles to study well(satvik). It never ends its life(satvik).Those who live away from agraharams can not speak about the life in agraharams.
4) in 57 says:
Sorry, considering how much violence is there in the dharmashastras to supress women and shudras, it is simply not possible to accept "satvik genes" exist in brahmins.
Dharmasastras were not exclusive Brahmin sastras. They were society sastras. This big hole in the arguments by anti Brahmins has never been stitched up so far.
In 62 said:
5) Dharmashastras reflect survival instict of 'brahmins' -- these did everything in their capacity to keep a birth-based society to corner resources for themselves. Why?
It was not the survival instincts of Brahmins that devised the birth-based castes. The reply given by auh is to the point and demands an answer which is nor forthcoming.
6) said in 63
The most corrupt people i have seen in my life are brahmins. No empathy whatsoever in collecting the bribe. Not any different from other communities.
The most corrupt people I and many others here have seen in our life are not Brahmins. They ‘show’ a lot of empathy and sympathy but collect they do when it comes to bribe. Very different from Brahmins.
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