Meritocracy and Quotas

[auh]

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Sufficient to represent a crowd. Just as a few hundred samples are sufficient to understand a few things about some things. Just as the behavior of a few here reflects upon the whole community. All informed readers know how this site functions.

You are getting carried away, I believe. How can a few brahmins' comment about what satvik is become a broad and sweeping generalization on the whole community, unless, they are authorized by the mutts, or are in line with traditional viewpoints? If I select a sample of people and if they all say that brahmins are good and satvik, will you consider that the universal truth? This is just to show how your statement does not stand scrutiny.

What was prescribed for brahmins? Eating meat, fish, drinking soma, getting women as dakshina for sacrifices, What is austere about this? They performed some havans, got a cush life, ate, drank, lived well. Copying rituals of an ascetic does not make them one.

None of the practising brahmins do what you have said above. If you selectively want to believe what you want to believe, no amount of discussions would help, I feel.

 

[palindrome]

Looks like ShivKC (aka Simon) is desperate for attention. Begging for a response. ShivKC never got responses from me. Just to let newcomers know.

 

[auh]

? when did i say it is?

But then why did you have to say what you said about the mutt?

to know how far back in known history can you trace back your ancestors. This is required bcoz everyone says its from father to son, so lets know when the earliest known male of your dad's dad's line lived.

I dont understand your reasoning. First, you are getting personal in a discussion, and secondly, if I say that X was my ancestor some 500 years ago, what would you do with that?

Cmon, neither did i.

Yes you did not. But you worded the sentence to imply that someone in this forum had said that slum living was great.

 

[Vaagmi]

What was prescribed for brahmins? [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]Eating meat[/COLOR], fish, drinking [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]soma[/COLOR], getting women as dakshina for sacrifices, What is austere about this? They performed some havans, got a cush life, ate, drank, lived well. Copying rituals of an ascetic does not make them one.

Brahmins at least got the women as dakshina. The kshatriyas, vaishyas and shudras just lifted women from the home of panchamans and enjoyed them. They do that even today in villages. Not brahmins.

 

[Vaagmi]

Looks like ShivKC (aka Simon) is desperate for attention. Begging for a response. ShivKC never got responses from me. Just to let newcomers know

.

Pot calling the kettle black!!

 

[palindrome]

You are getting carried away, I believe.

Lets talk to the point please.

How can a few brahmins' comment about what satvik is become a broad and sweeping generalization on the whole community, unless, they are authorized by the mutts, or are in line with traditional viewpoints? If I select a sample of people and if they all say that brahmins are good and satvik, will you consider that the universal truth? This is just to show how your statement does not stand scrutiny.

Claims of brahmins are like this and that, is not new. I beleive this site has offered insights like no other. And yes, i can say confidently, the behavior of a few reflects upon the whole community. The Vox populi always stand out and are supported by everyone, including the site.

None of the practising brahmins do what you have said above. If you selectively want to believe what you want to believe, no amount of discussions would help, I feel.

What's a "practising" brahmin? How come a smartha does not practice what is in his smriti / dharmashastra? How come he practices vegetarianism? I don't understand still.

 

[auh]

Palindrome,

I have a doubt - Assume that a brahmin "B" lived some 1000 years ago. And assume that he had two or three brahmin wives, and beget many children from them. And by chance or not, he also married two NB women, both from different demographies, and beget many children from them. Assume that the children from B and NB live separately and have no connection from the next generation onwards. Also the children from the NB wives marry NBs after that

Fast forward a thousand years, without knowing the backdrop, if you were to sample a gene from the traditional "B" child and, by chance, a gene from the now unconnected NB child, there is a probability that some of the genes might match, and you would probably conclude that they were intrlinked somewhere before. But this does not always infer that the "B" gene has been derived from an NB gene

I know there are a lot of assumptions, but is this a possibility?

I am asking this not to belittle any communities, but just to ascertain if there are windows of uncertainity that cannot be proved by gene testing.

 

[palindrome]

But then why did you have to say what you said about the mutt?

Well, ignore it then.

I dont understand your reasoning. First, you are getting personal in a discussion, and secondly, if I say that X was my ancestor some 500 years ago, what would you do with that?

Oh no sir am not getting personal. Everyone who says I have been practising what my father learnt from his father, should be able to say when did the earliest known male of his father's line live. Am not asking for anyone's name. Am merely asking about the dating, in which year did the earliest known male in your dad's dad's line live?

Yes you did not. But you worded the sentence to imply that someone in this forum had said that slum living was great.

??? Wow ! Can you show me where i worded anything to that effect ?

 

[sravna]

Dear Palindrome,

I think you should realize that some of those whom you are arguing against are really concerned that certain values should not be given up by the present generation. It really doesn't matter whether it is the brahmins or any other group. I am speaking for the others too because if you ask them whether they would prefer to have the traditional status of a brahmin without practising any of his values or prefer if they are not called a brahmin but would want to practise his values, I m sure their answer would be very revealing. I am sure that your emphasis is also on the values and not on the person.

The real enemy of you and me is the one who epitomises the exact opposite of the values we are talking about and who would prefer that others too do not practise such values so that he can have a hold on others. It is necessary that we get clarity on this and not fight by understanding the real issue and doing what is good for the society.

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome,

I have a doubt - Assume that a brahmin "B" lived some 1000 years ago. And assume that he had two or three brahmin wives, and beget many children from them. And by chance or not, he also married two NB women, both from different demographies, and beget many children from them. Assume that the children from B and NB live separately and have no connection from the next generation onwards. Also the children from the NB wives marry NBs after that

Fast forward a thousand years, without knowing the backdrop, if you were to sample a gene from the traditional "B" child and, by chance, a gene from the now unconnected NB child, there is a probability that some of the genes might match, and you would probably conclude that they were intrlinked somewhere before. But this does not always infer that the "B" gene has been derived from an NB gene

I know there are a lot of assumptions, but is this a possibility?

I am asking this not to belittle any communities, but just to ascertain if there are windows of uncertainity that cannot be proved by gene testing.

From where did brahmins originate? Do you think they descended from a seperate ancestor like Homo brahmanasis? Well, before anything called brahmin existed, humans shared common ancestors. Much of survival skills and known memes come from back then. There is no such thing as a brahmin gene or a non-brahmin gene. Tell it to any geneticist, he/she wud think its a joke.

 

[auh]

Claims of brahmins are like this and that, is not new. I beleive this site has offered insights like no other. And yes, i can say confidently, the behavior of a few reflects upon the whole community. The Vox populi always stand out and are supported by everyone, including the site.

Then your claim is as good or bad as the other claim only and nothing more. People can always come out with samples and statistics favouring their pov.

What's a "practising" brahmin? How come a smartha does not practice what is in his smriti / dharmashastra? How come he practices vegetarianism? I don't understand still.

Maybe you can try the Sringeri Matams or the Ahobila Matams for a clarification on your doubts.

 

[renuka]

BTW I wonder why does anyone actually want to even be Sattva??

I am the least concern who is Sattva and who is not and frankly it does not really matter even if Sattva genes can be scientifically proven.

Lets compare and contrast Sattva and Non Sattva behavior:


Sattva in Black Ink and Non Sattva in Blue Ink.

1)The Sattvas have to get up early for Nithyakarmas.

Non Sattvas can get up whatever time he wants.

2)Sattvas listens to classical music mainly Carnatic Music which can lull you to sleep.

Non Sattvas can enjoy Dapankuttu songs in a "Lungi ko uthana padega"
style

3)Sattvas have to watch how they speak..no swearing!

Non Sattvas can use the best of Gaalis!

4)Sattvas can not inhale smoke besides Homa smoke and can not drink any intoxicant besides Soma Juice.

Non Sattvas can try anything from Beedi to JD!

5)Sattvas can not be lusty and can only see Devotional Movies.

Non Sattvas can have X ray vision and watch anything X rated too.

6)Sattva females dress only in sarees.

Non Sattva females can be in anything from micro mini to bikini.



Now tell me why would anyone want to be Sattva?LOL

 

[auh]

From where did brahmins originate? Do you think they descended from a seperate ancestor like Homo brahmanasis? Well, before anything called brahmin existed, humans shared common ancestors. Much of survival skills and known memes come from back then. There is no such thing as a brahmin gene or a non-brahmin gene. Tell it to any geneticist, he/she wud think its a joke.

That is not the answer to my question. I asked the query since you seemed to want to test the genes of a few people here.

Do you mean to say that there are no variations in genes, and all the patterns of DNA for all share the same characteristics?

So then, going back to my example, do you admit that gene testing can be inconclusive?

 

[auh]

Well, ignore it then.

I have. The reason I brought it out was to point out that you are throwing blind darts in your discussions.

Oh no sir am not getting personal. Everyone who says I have been practising what my father learnt from his father, should be able to say when did the earliest known male of his father's line live. Am not asking for anyone's name. Am merely asking about the dating, in which year did the earliest known male in your dad's dad's line live?

I have given the answer - if I say that X was my ancestor some N years ago, what do you derive from that? Answer me clearly please.

??? Wow ! Can you show me where i worded anything to that effect ?

That was your "slum" comment. What else?

 

[palindrome]

Then your claim is as good or bad as the other claim only and nothing more. People can always come out with samples and statistics favouring their pov.

About claims i agree. But about samples and stats, let me know how?

Maybe you can try the Sringeri Matams or the Ahobila Matams for a clarification on your doubts.

What doubts? I don't have any. As for pretensions and historical origins, i understand well enough. So there is no need for me to go to any mutt and ask.

 

[palindrome]

I have. The reason I brought it out wast to point out that you are throwing blind darts in your discussions.

Oh well i thot it was part of the discussion, since you think it was a blind dart, ignore it (as already said before).

I have given the answer - if I say that X was my ancestor some N years ago, what do you derive from that? Answer me clearly please.

Then i'd say your practices come to you from N years ago only.

That was your "slum" comment. What else?

Which comment?

 

[auh]

Then i'd say your practices come to you from N years ago only.

I will not dispute that. All that I say is that similarly N goes backwards and backwards, with each of my generation, until the origin which neither you and I know about.

 

[auh]

Btw, i do expect a doomsday scenario for brahmins coming true. There won't be any brahmins in future. The extinction mode is already happening (since the time they were ousted from reservations, no social authority anymore, no erstwhile clout, too many unmarried males...). Current gods won't exist in future either. Just my thots.

I noticed this insertion just now. You know what I think - perhaps there is no doomsday at all. Perhaps there would be a resurgence of brahminism (whatever that means).

None of the brahmins that I have met are complaining about reservation; they quietly chart the waters.

Today, social authority is only with the goondas and so, nobody would be bothered.

Today, only money has clout, nothing else, not even knowledge.

Unmarried males? So what, the married ones would continue the tradition.

The Gods are not current; they have survived thousands of years, and perhaps, they will, a thousand and more.

Just my thoughts please.

 

[palindrome]

I will not dispute that. All that I say is that similarly N goes backwards and backwards, with each of my generation, until the origin which neither you and I know about.

?? Ofcourse human origins date back to an ancient time. However, traditions go on changing. Yesterday's rituals do not exist today, and today's will not exist tomorrrow.

So far, the dispute is in terms of differentiating between satvik 'brahmin' genes versus non-brahmin genes. If someone thinks they are different in terms of origins, if they think they are geneticially exclusive, i'd say such folks can delude themselves as much as they want. Since the site and several members support Vaagmi who passes off his opinions as those of Boyd, what else to do, but to let it show as a reminder what 'brahmins' stand for, even today.

I noticed this insertion just now. You know what I think - perhaps there is no doomsday at all. Perhaps there would be a resurgence of brahminism (whatever that means).

None of the brahmins that I have met are complaining about reservation; they quietly chart the waters.

Today, social authority is only with the goondas and so, nobody would be bothered.

Today, only money has clout, nothing else, not even knowledge.

Unmarried males? So what, the married ones would continue the tradition.

The Gods are not current; they have survived thousands of years, and perhaps, they will, a thousand and more.

Just my thoughts please.

Once upon a time, brahmins thought they were invincible, until the british decided to junk court pundits. Then came along reservations. It is good if brahmins do not beg for reservations or oppose reservations. In current time its the attitude which shapes relationships, and influences even the politics of today. This is an information age. Things may not be getting easier. You may reassure yourself in anyway you please. Lets see within our lifetime how much of each one's words come true. Good luck.

 

[palindrome]

While genetics looks at the genes for evidence, anthropology looks at manifestations in large enough sample size of people for evidence. So we can not dismiss the findings of anthropologists as mere speculations as palindrome and her friend have done here.

Nara and I are NOT opposing Robert Boyd. We are very much in agreement with Boyd. We challenge you to prove your speculations on brahmin genes, genes-culture in the context of Boyd's work.

If you have any gall or any respect at all, don't go running to Praveen. Stand up for yourself. Write down your opinions pointwise. I shall email it to Boyd as said earlier. You and your coterie come down on me they way you do. But that does not mean you can get away with allegations. Sadly, Praveen is with you in this. Silencing me is not going to achieve anything for you. Instead, it is a reminder to everyone what you folks represent.

 

[Nara]

....For their all loud talks of historical evidence, they have not produced even a scrap of paper which says that manu smrithi was the accepted civil law in any of the kingdoms of the erstwhile Bharatha varsha.

Dear Narayan, you are once again sniping from the sidelines, wish you would enter the fray and make your case.

Whether Manu was adopted as civil law, and if so to what extent, are not easy questions to answer, but not impossible. I think there is epigraphical evidence that shows that it was used by Hindu dynasties. I believe there are copper plates from Raja Raja Cholan era to validate this.

However, in the present context, the question is not whether Manu served as civil law in the days past, but why Brahmins eulogize Manu today. We have seen in this forum itself claims that there was a time when the varna system, which of course is Manu's gift to humans, worked perfectly and all the varnas lived side by side, according to the dictates of the dharmashahthras, in harmony. Everyone knows this is just rubbish, but still it is touted. It is proudly displayed as the distilled essence of ancient wisdom by the Brahminical Matams, e.g. Kamakoti.org. These are facts today even if nobody got their tongue cut or molten lead poured into their ears in the past.

regards ....

 

[palindrome]

That is not the answer to my question. I asked the query since you seemed to want to test the genes of a few people here.

Only Ravi. Did not make that offer to anyone else.

Do you mean to say that there are no variations in genes, and all the patterns of DNA for all share the same characteristics?

???

So then, going back to my example, do you admit that gene testing can be inconclusive?

Am wondering about your Q on variation, sadly you ask a question which everyone who studied biology in school wud know (even in my time we read mendel). You do not know what gene variation is, but you want to know if gene testing can be inconclusive. Well, what to say. It starts with the experimental design. What you want to test, for how many samples, using which method, etc. If you are doing clustering analysis and testing sample A against samples B, C, D, E; then you can get clustering between A-C and A- E, and none between A-B and A-D. That does not mean the results are inconclusive. It tells you sample A is related to samples C and E but not the other two. Existing ethnohistory and/or historical evidence may help understand why a relationship between A-C and A-E exists. Depending on whether you are looking at deep ancestry or recent ancestry, results and links can be very useful. Since the ethnohistory of every community in India is not known, sometimes we cannot conclude why a relationship between 2 communities exist. Hope this helps.

 

[Nara]

Nara and I are NOT opposing Robert Boyd. We are very much in agreement with Boyd. We challenge you to prove your speculations on brahmin genes, genes-culture in the context of Boyd's work. .

This is absolutely correct. It is one thing to say that environment and culture can and do impact genes given sufficient time, but entirely another to claim Brahmins have already developed a unique gene trait hat marks them as Satvik or whatever. Those who make this claim have not provided a scintilla of evidence, just some vague waving of the hand and invoking Robert Boyd. To ask them to put up is not unreasonable. Not doing so is revealing.

But, palindrome, I warned you at the beginning itself and it has come true just as I predicted. Be picky about who you argue with, or else this is what will happen ... take care my friend ....

 

[palindrome]

Oh no, look up what Ramasamy Pitchappan said.


Uh Oh, what austere life? Read the dharmashastras anytime? Brahmins ate ample meat and all. They were given women as gifts for performing havans. Sometimes i wonder why did militant people have to copy rituals meant for sanyasis at all as though they are going to become sanyasis.
<edited. without proof do not speculate on the mutt and its gurus. Posting them as part of a discussion is fine if the necessary proofs are provided. - praveen>

Please see

1) "Real History of Kanchi Mutt" by Vidyasankar Sundaresan
2) "The Truth about the Kumbhakonam Math", by R. Krishnaswamy Aiyar and K. R. Venkatraman, Sri Ramakrishna Press, Madurai, 1977.
3) "Kanchi Kamakoti Math - a Myth" by Varanasi Raj Gopal Sarma (Editor), Ganga Tunga Prakashan, Varanasi, 1987.
4) The Illustrated Weekly of India, "The Weekly Cover Story", by KP Sunil, September 13, 1987.

But to think all brahmins have something called satvik genes (whatever it is though no such thing has been identified) is nothing but sheer ego. Esp, if one were to think satvik is a brahmin-exclusive thingy (ego self-massage effect). Not any different from other communities.

I agree.

<edited. kindly note, in a brahmin it is not a good idea to talk bad about brahmins. not everyone would ignore such posts.please refrain from posting such message again. - praveen>

Kindly check. Nothing was edited out or deleted from this post yet the red letter message has been made.

 

[palindrome]

This is absolutely correct. It is one thing to say that environment and culture can and do impact genes given sufficient time, but entirely another to claim Brahmins have already developed a unique gene trait hat marks them as Satvik or whatever. Those who make this claim have not provided a scintilla of evidence, just some vague waving of the hand and invoking Robert Boyd. To ask them to put up is not unreasonable. Not doing so is revealing.

But, palindrome, I warned you at the beginning itself and it has come true just as I predicted. Be picky about who you argue with, or else this is what will happen ... take care my friend ....

Expected all those remarks but not the ones from Praveen. Still wondering if it is Praveen.

Anyways, all informed readers know how this site functions. So if am banned, so be it. My voice is not going to be stopped. If not this site, then elsewhere.