there will be hundreds of slums and Vanished vedhapadasalas.
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Meritocracy and Quotas
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Vaagmi
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post #98:
"Environment and culture can and do impact genes given sufficient time"--says Robert Boyd and is agreed by our friends here in unison. I hope this will not be reopened again looking for an escape hatch somewhere so that they can go back on the settled issues.
Boyd based his conclusions on this:
The best evidence available to Boyd and Richerson for culture being a selective force was the lactose tolerance found in many northern Europeans. Most people switch off the gene that digests the lactose in milk shortly after they are weaned, but in Northern Europeans—the descendents of an ancient cattle rearing culture that emerged in the region some 6000 years ago—the gene is kept switched on in adulthood.
Lactose tolerance is now well recognized as a case in which a cultural practice—drinking raw milk—has caused an evolutionary change in the genome. Presumably the extra nutrition was of such advantage that adults who were able to digest milk left more surviving offspring and the genetic change swept through the population.
Now brahmins to have unique gene traits what is required is (1)an effort and a need to have such traits and adherence to them (2)sufficient time for that "effort" to get coded into the genes as it happened with lactose tolerance of that Northern European tribe. If these two conditions are met then it can be reasonable concluded that brahmin genes would have got the hard coding done into them and would have become unique when compared to other genes in the large tribe called Indians. Now let us take the condition (1).
Our ancestors in India have taken the trouble to divide themselves into varnas on the basis of some parameter. Though what the parameter was is a subject of sectarian conflict, it is a fact that they did it on the basis of professions/occupations. Thus one group specialised in intellectual pursuit (included sciences, philosophy and literature etc.,) and came to be known as brahmins. Similarly physical prowess , valour, ruling the community giving it leadership in times of war and piece etc was pursued by another community called kshatriyas. I need not go into detail about other groups as it is all well known to the members here. The purushasuktham has been discussed here so much that there is no need to give any reference from that. It is enough to just refer to it. There is sufficient evidence that this division of labour and accordingly the community happened long back. Sufficiently long back for the genes to get the culture of each group coded into the genes the fundamental building blocks. Thus it is clear that the society in India evolved on the lines of these distinct groups with distinct cultural practices which were enabling the groups excel in their line of occupation. So requirement no (1) is met. The effort was there and the felt need was also there as they adhered to the varna system.
Taking requirement no (2) now. Was there sufficient time for the impact to get coded? If a period of 6000 years was sufficient for lactose tolerance to get coded several such 6000 years have gone by in this country called bharathvarsh for the unique cultural traits of brahmins to get hardcoded into the genes. Now I hope there will geologists jumping into the fray to take over the discussion to prove that Indian sub-continent is less than 6000 years old. Let us see.
Conclusion:For our present discussion both the requirements have been met and so the unique cultural traits of brahmins have gone into their genes as codes written down and tampering with it will have unpredictable consequences.
For once I am happy that my words have been quoted here (highlighted). I said exactly this to palindrome with an example from my travel in the train.
I do not expect anybody to accept that I have proved my point. I know the egos are too elephantine to do that. But the silent majority who come here to just read will know the fact. They will be extra careful about their children choosing IC/IR marriages. That is only the கொசுறு. Thanks.
"Environment and culture can and do impact genes given sufficient time"--says Robert Boyd and is agreed by our friends here in unison. I hope this will not be reopened again looking for an escape hatch somewhere so that they can go back on the settled issues.
Boyd based his conclusions on this:
The best evidence available to Boyd and Richerson for culture being a selective force was the lactose tolerance found in many northern Europeans. Most people switch off the gene that digests the lactose in milk shortly after they are weaned, but in Northern Europeans—the descendents of an ancient cattle rearing culture that emerged in the region some 6000 years ago—the gene is kept switched on in adulthood.
Lactose tolerance is now well recognized as a case in which a cultural practice—drinking raw milk—has caused an evolutionary change in the genome. Presumably the extra nutrition was of such advantage that adults who were able to digest milk left more surviving offspring and the genetic change swept through the population.
Now brahmins to have unique gene traits what is required is (1)an effort and a need to have such traits and adherence to them (2)sufficient time for that "effort" to get coded into the genes as it happened with lactose tolerance of that Northern European tribe. If these two conditions are met then it can be reasonable concluded that brahmin genes would have got the hard coding done into them and would have become unique when compared to other genes in the large tribe called Indians. Now let us take the condition (1).
Our ancestors in India have taken the trouble to divide themselves into varnas on the basis of some parameter. Though what the parameter was is a subject of sectarian conflict, it is a fact that they did it on the basis of professions/occupations. Thus one group specialised in intellectual pursuit (included sciences, philosophy and literature etc.,) and came to be known as brahmins. Similarly physical prowess , valour, ruling the community giving it leadership in times of war and piece etc was pursued by another community called kshatriyas. I need not go into detail about other groups as it is all well known to the members here. The purushasuktham has been discussed here so much that there is no need to give any reference from that. It is enough to just refer to it. There is sufficient evidence that this division of labour and accordingly the community happened long back. Sufficiently long back for the genes to get the culture of each group coded into the genes the fundamental building blocks. Thus it is clear that the society in India evolved on the lines of these distinct groups with distinct cultural practices which were enabling the groups excel in their line of occupation. So requirement no (1) is met. The effort was there and the felt need was also there as they adhered to the varna system.
Taking requirement no (2) now. Was there sufficient time for the impact to get coded? If a period of 6000 years was sufficient for lactose tolerance to get coded several such 6000 years have gone by in this country called bharathvarsh for the unique cultural traits of brahmins to get hardcoded into the genes. Now I hope there will geologists jumping into the fray to take over the discussion to prove that Indian sub-continent is less than 6000 years old. Let us see.
Conclusion:For our present discussion both the requirements have been met and so the unique cultural traits of brahmins have gone into their genes as codes written down and tampering with it will have unpredictable consequences.
For once I am happy that my words have been quoted here (highlighted). I said exactly this to palindrome with an example from my travel in the train.
I do not expect anybody to accept that I have proved my point. I know the egos are too elephantine to do that. But the silent majority who come here to just read will know the fact. They will be extra careful about their children choosing IC/IR marriages. That is only the கொசுறு. Thanks.
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I dont know if you quote some authoritative text to prove that brahmins thought that they were invincible.
But let's see.
Sad yes, I think, is due to the fact that I must have been poor in biology. So the sum of your above post is that one cannot always conclude why relationship between 2 communities exist (based on genes or gene testing).
Yes it helped. Thanks.
Do you think that is a fair prediction of the number of slums given the doomsday prediction for brahmins here?
N
Nara
Guest
All this is speculation, nothing to do with Boyd. Boyd didn't just speculate, he studied and presented verifiable data. Unless a similar study is undertaken, claims of Brahmin gene will get the derision it deserves.
So, let me state it again, there is nothing in Boyd's work that supports the claim that Brahmin culture has made it into their DNA. To continue to invoke Boyd is fraudulent.
BTW, the comment about Brahmins having existed for several 6000 years is pure fantasy.
Thank you ...
Try this: "Caste and the British Administration of Hindu Law" (by William Charles McCormack). You will know what the court pundits assumed about their position, reasons why they were finally thrown out.
Yep, being poor in biology shows. Your point in bold is a repetition of what i wrote. Perhaps you interpret it differently though. Every individual of a so-called community won't get the same results. You cud cluster with an unmentionable adivasi tribe. Your cousin may not. It merely shows you both have a different set of people with whom you share deep ancestry.
These are your own conclusions. Boyd's work neither states it nor supports it. For deluded folks who think of exclusive brahmin genes, perhaps psychiatric genetics should help. Will email Boyd anyways, lets see if he responds.
Btw, I have lactose intolerance and am not north american. Lactose intolerance is found commonly amongst folks of former cattle herding communities irrespective of region. Its simply ridiculous to assume brahmin unique gene traits (whatever they are), are formed in the same manner with time and effort. Just shows the level of understanding.
the wiring is apparent in the way it understands.Because you know deep inside what you are saying is crap.
Oh yeah, others have elephantine egos but only you have satvik genes.
Ok so the whole idea of invoking Boyd was to convey the message of IC/IR marriage prevention. After losing social clout, after reservations, now the prob is IC/IR marriages. Hmmm...try and prevent all you can. Good luck. And i thot time has a way of taking perpetrators of certain ideology out of the equation. Lets see....
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Vaagmi
0
Professor,
Speculating, hypothesising, extrapolating, projecting and predicting are all thought processes in science. When fission released large amount of energy all these processes came into play to conclude that fusion would release larger amount of energy. That was proved subsequently by actual experiments. ஆனைக்கு அர்ரம் என்றால் குதிரைக்கு குர்ரம் is not the logic we are discussing here. Boyd experimented with a sample size and came to certain conclusions. He used the occurrence of lactose tolerance to prove a concept. I am applying these same conclusions or the concept to another sample size in the reverse direction if you may call it, with strong reasons and am arriving at a conclusion. I am fully satisfied with the prima facie evidences/data that are available. What is needed is just a study with sufficiently large sample size to get a confirmation for what is obvious to many. To say that there is nothing in Boyd's work about brahmin culture is a inane, loaded, frivolous statement of the obvious. I never said Boyd has done work with brahmin genes. So I see an attempt here to divert the attention of the people less familiar with scientific work and that is intellectual dishonesty on the part of a professor. It is sad that you are indulging in this. For your convenience I repeat what you have said "there is nothing in Boyd's work that supports the claim that Brahmin culture has made it into their DNA". Professor, in scientific research what is proved is a concept or the fact/truth behind the occurrence of an event. Boyd has proved the truth that 'culture acts on the genes to change them' (in simple words) and he did it by looking at the occurrence of the event - the event being occurrence of lactose tolerance in a certain group of people (a large sample size). You are harping on the event while I am repeatedly drawing your and your friend's attention to the truth/concept that was proved. I am looking at another sample and applying the concept to draw a certain conclusions. I have reasons for my conclusions. Not that they are all imaginations or pure speculations. Now what is left is only a study taking a sample to prove the truth. May be some one will do that and confirm some day. Because it is a politically sensitive issue it may not happen at all. But to trivialize my argument as fraud etc., is nothing but intellectual arrogance and dishonesty of the worst kind. If you take a position that it needs to be proved by a study, I can understand that it is your intellectual right to demand iron clad proof. But this..... I am sad. I am not replying to your friend because she has already hit the ceiling and is blah blahing even without knowing what she is blurting out. Please advise her suitably. I am not keen any more to engage her in a conversation. Thank you.
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Vaagmi Ji,
Ok lets say if the "Sattva Gene" theory is true..I am starting to believe its true cos you know when you hear something over and over again you start to believe its true!LOL
Coming back to that..just say if it is true..can you list down in what way it actually makes a difference to mankind and the universe?
After all what ever genes we carry ..one day we are all going to drop dead and as far as I know the subtle body does not carry any gene besides its karmic balance.
I hope you could kindly reply me.
Ok lets say if the "Sattva Gene" theory is true..I am starting to believe its true cos you know when you hear something over and over again you start to believe its true!LOL
Coming back to that..just say if it is true..can you list down in what way it actually makes a difference to mankind and the universe?
After all what ever genes we carry ..one day we are all going to drop dead and as far as I know the subtle body does not carry any gene besides its karmic balance.
I hope you could kindly reply me.
Vaagmi
0
post #108 for reference:
I have been talking about lactose tolerance and not about lactose intolerance here all along. This tolerance even after weaning being a special cultural trait among a certain tribe, Boyd did his research on that. Lactose intolerance is common and not an exception. Once you have been weaned away, raw milk and lactose in it are not digestible because the function is switched off. It is not lactose intolerance that is found amongst the cattle rearing folk, it is the lactose tolerance which is interesting and hence was studied. You and I and many others here having lactose intolerance is not at all relevant to the discussion here. Now may I ask who has the right level of understanding. I reproduce the relevant para from my post #102:
"The best evidence available to Boyd and Richerson for culture being a selective force was the lactose tolerance found in many northern Europeans. Most people switch off the gene that digests the lactose in milk shortly after they are weaned, but in Northern Europeans—the descendents of an ancient cattle rearing culture that emerged in the region some 6000 years ago—the gene is kept switched on in adulthood.
Lactose tolerance is now well recognized as a case in which a cultural practice—drinking raw milk—has caused an evolutionary change in the genome. Presumably the extra nutrition was of such advantage that adults who were able to digest milk left more surviving offspring and the genetic change swept through the population."
So this post #108 by palindrome shows a poor understanding of the subject under discussion. That a self proclaimed geneticist shows such a poor understanding reveals the calibre. Or is it because of blind anger which usually makes people lose their balance? It is for the members here to judge. Thanks.
I have been talking about lactose tolerance and not about lactose intolerance here all along. This tolerance even after weaning being a special cultural trait among a certain tribe, Boyd did his research on that. Lactose intolerance is common and not an exception. Once you have been weaned away, raw milk and lactose in it are not digestible because the function is switched off. It is not lactose intolerance that is found amongst the cattle rearing folk, it is the lactose tolerance which is interesting and hence was studied. You and I and many others here having lactose intolerance is not at all relevant to the discussion here. Now may I ask who has the right level of understanding. I reproduce the relevant para from my post #102:
"The best evidence available to Boyd and Richerson for culture being a selective force was the lactose tolerance found in many northern Europeans. Most people switch off the gene that digests the lactose in milk shortly after they are weaned, but in Northern Europeans—the descendents of an ancient cattle rearing culture that emerged in the region some 6000 years ago—the gene is kept switched on in adulthood.
Lactose tolerance is now well recognized as a case in which a cultural practice—drinking raw milk—has caused an evolutionary change in the genome. Presumably the extra nutrition was of such advantage that adults who were able to digest milk left more surviving offspring and the genetic change swept through the population."
So this post #108 by palindrome shows a poor understanding of the subject under discussion. That a self proclaimed geneticist shows such a poor understanding reveals the calibre. Or is it because of blind anger which usually makes people lose their balance? It is for the members here to judge. Thanks.
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Vaagmi
0
Dear Renukaji,
I find some one has already answered your question in this forum very succinctly. The destructive weapons making is still not a cottage industry in India. The society and the Govt. have to only deal with what comes from outside the borders. Is this not a benefit to the mankind and the country though just a trivial one of many benefits?
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Vaagmi Ji,
But the main problem for India is also from an "Aryan" region..the Indus Valley in present day Pakistan.
"Aryan" Sattva genes too roam those regions.
So how is it that the genes there do not seem to display the so called Sattva phenomenon.
BTW I think you are confusing Sattva as being an இளிச்சவாய்.
Being Sattva does not mean one can not manufacture weapons.
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Vaagmi
0
Dear Renukaji,
1)I restrict my self to what I know about TBs. I do not know about Aryans, Mongols, Milechas and the mixing of these bloods. So I do not comment about that.
2)I am not confusing anything. You have not understood what I said. village Industry are the key words in my earlier post. Knowhow is there but is not available freely and recklessly. So it is not being இளிச்சவாய்.
3)What matters is who has the last laugh. Depite herculean efforts, not an inch has been lost in Kashmir where as Bangladesh is a reality. That speaks volume for the satva genes at the highest levels and their abilities.
Alright, so i have poor understanding, low calibre and all. Whilst you have a very high calibre endowed with satvik genes of an evolved brahmin genepool. If you had read my post properly at all, i said nothing against Boyd's work on tolerance / intolerance. And yes, lactose intolerance is common across former cattle rearing communities. Am one of those who did not inherit variations that promote continued lactase production for an autosomal dominant mcm6 gene regulatory element.
So let all this stand. Those educated know what's being spoken about. Those who go on with BS about brahmin genes versus non-brahmin genes, and fraudulently claim Boyd as proof, all the best to them. You folks are deserving of every bit of public distrust and dislike of your lot.
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Alright everyone hail satva genes :hail: at the highest levels and their abilities in kashmir :flypig: :madgrin:
Interpretation is the key. For all that genetics claims, it is only a game of probability. Nothing else.
You can ignore my reply if you want to:
Based on your below sentence
nothing matters; not even your question !!!
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Vaagmi Ji,
But I still do not get it..so far you only mentioned that Sattva Genes are not war mongers and do not manufacture weapons of mass destruction.
But even Flower Power Weed Puffing Hippie era had that thinking "Make Love..Not War".
This is where I do not get it..how come Sattva and Weed at times produce the same results.
Can you please elaborate and kindly also furnish me with more points on how Sattva Genes makes a difference to the Loka and Samastha..besides the Sukhino Bhavantu effect that you mentioned.
But I still do not get it..so far you only mentioned that Sattva Genes are not war mongers and do not manufacture weapons of mass destruction.
But even Flower Power Weed Puffing Hippie era had that thinking "Make Love..Not War".
This is where I do not get it..how come Sattva and Weed at times produce the same results.
Can you please elaborate and kindly also furnish me with more points on how Sattva Genes makes a difference to the Loka and Samastha..besides the Sukhino Bhavantu effect that you mentioned.
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There is a sattvic hit also. How do you think we guys go about with extending our family !!!
That is, for me, and not for you !!!
Tut, tut... that is rajasic,
In satvic literature, this can perhaps be said as
A sacrifice via a sacred edifice,
That brings forth a new face.
renuka
Well-known member
Tut, tut... that is rajasic,
In satvic literature, this can perhaps be said as
A sacrifice via a sacred edifice,
That brings forth a new face.
Oohhhhhhh! So you mean to say "no effort" is involved..cos any effort and activity is Rajas.
Well let me imagine..effortless effort?
I really need to imagine this.
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