Pl don’t listen to wrong people/wrong advise !!

[KRS]

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Dear Sri C.RAVI Ji,

You said:

What was then to say that it worked well at that time. There was not much considerably to say that it was ideal for that time. We evolved to achieve proper living with bad experiences of those day.

This is the crux of our conversation. 'Evolve' and 'Adapt' in terms of a culture are the same thong.

There is nothing sacrosanct about any culture, beyond it's ability to survive.

Obviously no culture today will go back to a 'cave man's culture', because obviously it can not survive today.

But in my humble opinion and this is not against your heartfelt views, any deviation from tradition should not be viewed as bad. It should only be viewed from the existing culture's pov. To me the proof of the pudding is whether a large group of folks within a culture adapt these new ideas as workable.

There is nothing inherently bad or good about human behavior, unless it goes against the prevailing social mores reflected by the laws of the land, in which case they become illegal.

Regards,
KRS

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri C.RAVI Ji,

You said:


This is the crux of our conversation. 'Evolve' and 'Adapt' in terms of a culture are the same thong.

There is nothing sacrosanct about any culture, beyond it's ability to survive.

Obviously no culture today will go back to a 'cave man's culture', because obviously it can not survive today.

But in my humble opinion and this is not against your heartfelt views, any deviation from tradition should not be viewed as bad. It should only be viewed from the existing culture's pov. To me the proof of the pudding is whether a large group of folks within a culture adapt these new ideas as workable.

There is nothing inherently bad or good about human behavior, unless it goes against the prevailing social mores reflected by the laws of the land, in which case they become illegal.

Regards,
KRS

True!!! I certainly agree.

BUT, such changes are my concern of worries and I wish parents bring up their children properly and collectively contribute positive changes in the society.


For example -

Match fixing and spot fixing is the changed trend in Cricket. This have taken away the charm of real excitement and charm of the game. Even if it get legalized, being unable to curb, the charm of the real game would be lost.

I for one can not consider it as just a change in our society and there is nothing bad in it. And that, it is just an inevitable change and it is good because it suits the current period.

 

[prasad1]

Criminal behavior is never condoned. Criminality and culture are two different thing.
What might be accepted culturally may not be legitimate.

A law can be changed by the act of politicians. A social norm can only be changed by society.

In England and USA the players are punished severely for betting, they also are charged with corruption. In India sometime they become MPs.

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

You said that 'women beyond 35 CAN NOT CONCEIVE'. You did not say that 'women beyond 35 should not conceive, because of high probability of genetics oriented problems for the off springs".

Our ancient system worked till the early part of 1900s. It was because, kids were married off very young, sometimes even before their teen age years. Horoscope matching came in to play then, because losing a husband (they did not worry that much about losing the wife then), was the worst thing for the families concerned and the girl. Your statement in OP, came because these were children.

Now as you know, we are talking about adult off springs. The story is completely different. I bet, if you approach these children with dhandam, as you advise, the majority of parents will be holding the proverbial bag. It does not matter that the vaunted system worked for all those years, but it won't work anymore because the world as we knew it has completely changed.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

Lets not get sidetracked by the semantics of 35 yrs + Lets focus on the substance pl.

Our ancients Genius Guru’s have seen many many Sreeshanth’s who wanted to live like – “life is to enjoy”, let me freak out, let me get everything now, let me have 5 houses, 10 sites, let me have 100s of girl friends etc.. & then end up in Jail. They have seen it all – LOL !!.

So they codified all this into the “Tortoise vs Hare” story & passed it down the ages. If one does not know history, they are condemned to repeat it.

No need to teach these Ancient Genius Guru’s, nor question their wisdom. It is high time for the new age people to question their googled wisdom !!

Now, how do you know it worked in 1990s & it will not work anymore? Did you get any revelations & God came & told you ? OR you analysed/conducted research?. LOL !! Americans have gone through this mess in 1970/80s during the hippie culture where millions of kids were lost to drugs, live-in sex & alcohol. If our parents & kids want to follow this, please by all means do it & fall into the ditch !!

Most of us Tambrams will follow our religion, tradition, shastras, ancient wisdom without fail. Those who choose to follow / ape west, may gladly do so. My post is for the general public who are getting carried away by the desi turned American tidsy bitsy wisdom & messing their lives up.

Cheers,

 

[Jaykay767]

kids in my terminology, means adult grown up children here in this context.

you may be one who believes your parents were 100% right in bringing you up, and maybe you will follow the same formula. and maybe your grownup children will do likewise.

i think, this causes many ill adjusted and dysfunctional families. when we have children, we need to discuss with our spouses, the best habits of both the households, and bring them into practice. and avoid the worst.

it is not that i practised it. it takes two to tango, and i will tell you, in an arranged, many things are status quo. there is not much room for change of behaviour. which is unlike a love marriage, i mean a mature love marriage, where there is unity of ideas and goals and thoughts.

i would suggest again, instead of being sarcastic, you can contribute with solid counter arguements. so far all you have suggested is violence - physical or verbal. i think those will not work in the long term for most folks.

indian parenting indeed has come a long way. yesterday's parents did not have to deal with internet or cell phone or co ed workspace or financially independent daughters. now to try to whack them into marrying some bozo because her biological clock is running out, i wonder, if that would be convincing enough to a modern woman. she would just walk out, and her parents, dependent on her income for the luxuries of life, would chase after her. you bet!

Dear kunjuppu,

Life evolves & it moves every generation. However some of them are timeless wisdom which always worked & continues to work.

Just because we are in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century does not mean parenting has to change upside down. I am sure you will agree, that kids need both love & discipline (I am not suggesting we beat them, certainly not – but a solid dressing down is required like in the case of marriage) otherwise they will go wayward.

In the case of Tambrams our kids will be normal from the outside, they will live a normal life, go for a job, provide for thier parents etc.. but in the inside, many of them are stubborn, will not listen to anyone including parents, they disregard the elders , & they say we know best. & then they throw away their lives.

Ask any 35/40+ yr lady, she will cry in private, only if my parents had blasted me & asked me to marry at the right age, to a good person instead of looking for a “Hero – Ideal Man”, I would have long been married. Etc.. Today the parents are encouraging their kids to look for the ideal match, they are standing like Nandi & saying no to many alliances in the name of father in law, mother in law problems & then when the Kids are unmarried @ 35+, they cry over their fate !!

Cheers,

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Where do you get the idea that women can not conceive anymore beyond the age of 35? They can till menopause.

By the way, a person who is stupid when young, is going to be stupid when old. Unfortunately many parents who fall in to this category, beget bright children

. Your assumption that a parent knows best is not correct, in my opinion.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS - I am commenting in general & not to your post, definitely not to you.

Makku fellow thinks he knows it all by quoting genes. I believe the Makku fellow will have “maha makku” kids with the environment they provide by coming up with the silly new age wisdom borrowed / aped from the west.

 

[Jaykay767]

indian parenting indeed has come a long way. yesterday's parents did not have to deal with internet or cell phone or co ed workspace or financially independent daughters. now to try to whack them into marrying some bozo because her biological clock is running out, i wonder, if that would be convincing enough to a modern woman. she would just walk out, and her parents, dependent on her income for the luxuries of life, would chase after her. you bet!

I bet Karma will walk nah run out for these kids even more faster!

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear kunjuppu,

Life evolves & it moves every generation. However some of them are timeless wisdom which always worked & continues to work.

Just because we are in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century does not mean parenting has to change upside down. I am sure you will agree, that kids need both love & discipline (I am not suggesting we beat them, certainly not – but a solid dressing down is required like in the case of marriage) otherwise they will go wayward.

In the case of Tambrams our kids will be normal from the outside, they will live a normal life, go for a job, provide for thier parents etc.. but in the inside, many of them are stubborn, will not listen to anyone including parents, they disregard the elders , & they say we know best. & then they throw away their lives.

Ask any 35/40+ yr lady, she will cry in private, only if my parents had blasted me & asked me to marry at the right age, to a good person instead of looking for a “Hero – Ideal Man”, I would have long been married. Etc.. Today the parents are encouraging their kids to look for the ideal match, they are standing like Nandi & saying no to many alliances in the name of father in law, mother in law problems & then when the Kids are unmarried @ 35+, they cry over their fate !!

Cheers,

but you missed the real point here.

the most sexually needing period is late teens and early twenties. have you noticed many communities marry off their kids at that age.

my own mother was 18, dad 24. he was not financially all that stable, but there was a need for him to set up a household and so he married the one who was offered to him.

nowadays the rules appear to have changed.

i have always wondered,what would happen, if we have our youngsters married off late teens, early twenties, and let the continue studies and such. with birth control, one can postpone kids, but can companion together as spouses, and share a familiarity and intimacy, which should be acceptable to the parents, and desired by the kids.

just a random thought...

 

[sarang]

The question is related to love and arranged marriages. Since you claimed that most of your ancestors had love marriage, while most of the indians in the past three generations had arranged marriage. It is not meant to pry.

Dear Sir,

Sarang ji asked me a question....to which I answered him.

It is not really bio data....it is just citizenship of ancestors.

It is quite a common question for Indians who are born and bred abroad.

Sarang ji is also quite a mature forum member..so I did not mind answering his question.

At the same time I would like to thank you for the advise.

 

[sarang]

Whenever there is an invasion - political, religious, power or cultural invasion, there is some disturbance and muddying of life, culture, language, and customs in the beginning. How this invasion is resisted, diverted, or absorbed is important. Hindus have faced cultural invasion and religious persecution and imposed court culture in the past.

This is another such period; there is a renewed interest in scriptures, traditional values and lifestyle. Even today, there are people in every varna, kulam and jati who sincerely work to preserve and spread. Only time will tell.

Even marriage is becoming an anachronism in current day India.

Live-in relationships are common in Metros.

And as a forest fire, would imminently spread to rural India not long from now.

Whither so-called-indian-culture let alone tambrahm culture!!!!

 

[sarang]

Not correct. Brahmins of any age (not physical, but time) were not against education in any form (vedic, professional, political) and were always relocating to different parts of Bharat, either as invitees by the kings or in search of greener pastures where their knowledge and services were useful. They were ministers, accountants, teachers, doctors, metallurgists, mathematicians and virtually all professions. They did all this without losing the basic brahminical traditions. We should not under estimate our ancestors.

If my parents had listened to their parents, probably they will still be tilling some land in TN. If I did not break the tradition, I would still be living in India. If status quo is maintained for "cultural integrity" we would be stagnent, and suffering. Progress happens when you break the mold.

 

[sarang]

A good vaishnavite. Mahalakshmi sees only the good points and protects the bhakta from the anger of Sriman Narayana.

dearv Mr. Ravi,
Stern parent NEED not necessarily mean bashing blue and black.
There is one easy to remember formula for the role of the parents.
Father must be stern and gentle.
Mother must be gentle and stern.
So the Father is stern without being harsh.
The Mother is gentle without giving in to every whim and fancy.

 

[prasad1]

Not correct. Brahmins of any age (not physical, but time) were not against education in any form (vedic, professional, political) and were always relocating to different parts of Bharat, either as invitees by the kings or in search of greener pastures where their knowledge and services were useful. They were ministers, accountants, teachers, doctors, metallurgists, mathematicians and virtually all professions. They did all this without losing the basic brahminical traditions. We should not under estimate our ancestors.

If you see the op, you will understand that my comment was taken out of context by your post. If our parents had to "beat us into submission to tow the line" we will not be where we are today. Our parents as you correctly point out allowed us to fly freely.

 

[prasad1]

“School Chale Hum” is scribbled on the outer walls of every house in Badbeli village of Rajgarh district in Madhya Pradesh, but Sheela Soundhiya’s hopes of continuing her education were dashed when she was taken off school in Class IV. Last year, she was married off and now she will be sent to her husband’s home though she is just about 15 or 16 years old.


“I want to study but no one is listening to me,” she says.


Ram Dayal of the same village is in Class IX but he has been married for three years. Shiv Singh Dangi got married when he was 12 years old to Manju who was just ten at that time. There are many other children who are yet to attain adulthood but have been forced into wedlock.

Is this what we want for our children?

 

[kunjuppu]

“School Chale Hum” is scribbled on the outer walls of every house in Badbeli village of Rajgarh district in Madhya Pradesh, but Sheela Soundhiya’s hopes of continuing her education were dashed when she was taken off school in Class IV. Last year, she was married off and now she will be sent to her husband’s home though she is just about 15 or 16 years old.


“I want to study but no one is listening to me,” she says.


Ram Dayal of the same village is in Class IX but he has been married for three years. Shiv Singh Dangi got married when he was 12 years old to Manju who was just ten at that time. There are many other children who are yet to attain adulthood but have been forced into wedlock.

Is this what we want for our children?

that is not the scenario i had in mind.

we know of people, who had their daughters married while still in teens. they continued their studies, intheir husband's house - one a medico and the other an accountant, and went on to have careers. just the difference was, that the in laws ended up supporting the girl, and the son/dil could have conjugal relationships in addition to study.

what i mean is, one need not be at the cost of the other. it is in the late teens early twenties, one yearns for sex and either have it within the confines of a marriage. or as it happens now, have it without. upto you.

 

[sarang]

yes from the age of ten or even earlier. The west is planning to reduce the age of consent to hanky panky to ten; the modern girls are healthy enough to face (bear) the consequences. Why not reduce the age of marriage to ten, if the boy and the girl are willing.

Back in time, women delivered all the way until menopause (because contraceptives were not available then). It depends on the health of a woman, rather than age, as it always has been.

 

[C RAVI]

Who said we want child marriage for our children? Who said we want our children to be deprived from their education and career ambitions?

Eradicate the nonsense happening in the society, still!!

But don't commit nonsense in the name of pragmatism is the point! Don't be unreasonably dreaming, don't be unreasonably ambitious and ultimately don't make yourself fool, considering the others a crap. This is the crux of the debate.

Parents first need to be matured, responsible and be a mentor for their children to expect their children to have right perspectives of life and right attitude. In this Globalized environment with access to everything, Children are miss leaded and miss guided either by the ulterior motives of others or by the ignorance & crudeness of others.

Life is precious and time is priceless!! The knowledge, wisdom and the skills of the parents matters a lot to make the life and time of their children valuable.

The children who are left unattended or parented by ignorant or careless parents and are not been molded properly from the right time are the ones who mostly end up as losers in life, in some way or other, no matter what talent and skills the children possibly have or don't have.

Whatever may be the changes in the following generations, the value of time and the value of human life remains the same. To have meaning to one's life time and meaning to one's human life of love, care, bondage, family etc.etc one need to be smart enough to grasp the gist of human life and serious enough to know what can be considered as truly favorable advice, who can be truly giving a responsible and beneficial guidance and why a specific given suggestion and advice should be considered.

 

[palindrome]

yes from the age of ten or even earlier. The west is planning to reduce the age of consent to hanky panky to ten; the modern girls are healthy enough to face (bear) the consequences.

Are you OK? I mean, seriously.

What's the connection between what i wrote and your comment?

I was commenting on ability to reproduce at any age until menopause (based on the health not age of women). My comment was not about reducing marriage age to promote mating between pre-teens or teens or about west.

Why not reduce the age of marriage to ten, if the boy and the girl are willing.

Why ten year old kids, why not 2 or 3 year old kids? Is this some kinda khap mentality ? Or some way to promote pedophilia of Manusmriti style? or mating with 9 year old Aisha in sharia style?

Guess what, some men are born crazy. Religion has nothing to do with it. Crazy men create religion and laws in certain ways. And its never women, its always men (supposedly charismatic military leaders). In addition to variants of MAOA gene aka 'warrior gene' which makes men very driven to conquer land and women (with some variants also implicated in psychopathic behavior such as rape and murder), men can also carry a gene variant for vasopressin, which is being implicated in poor interpersonal bonding as well as greater likelihood to exhibit clan behavior (tribalism). Also explains why women everywhere bond easily, while men hesitate. Also explains why some men think they own women, can dictate their lives. Marriage at 10 indeed. Sigh!

 

[prasad1]

I agree with post#91.
Why do all these old men always want to control women (Girls). Even the evangelical Christian, and Muslim community in addition to the Hindu the obsession of old men is to control the reproduction. They want to curtail the freewill for women one way or the other. It has nothing to do with culture.

Old men are loosing power, accept it and deal with it.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

How old is an old man???
It is quite natural that old men lose their power.
What is so strange about it anyway?
They will deal with it in the best way known to them.

 

[kunjuppu]

How old is an old man???
It is quite natural that old men lose their power.
What is so strange about it anyway?
They will deal with it in the best way known to them.

yes. we call it v-i-a-g-r-a

 

[Jaykay767]

<Deleted - KRS>

I don't know who two were the targets of this vituperative post - but no personal attacks on anyone is allowed. If you want to say something about someone's idea, please post your counter ideas.

KRS

 

[C RAVI]

yes from the age of ten or even earlier. The west is planning to reduce the age of consent to hanky panky to ten; the modern girls are healthy enough to face (bear) the consequences. Why not reduce the age of marriage to ten, if the boy and the girl are willing.

Because the willingness is to enjoy Sex! Sexual explorations and pleasures derived out of it is the purpose of having a partner for sex, for which sex at the age 10 of a boy and a girl of today's generation is considered to be accepted as consensual sex and not a rape without the understanding of the girl. So, need not be mandated for marriage.

The same is the case with people opting for "Live-in-relationship" that gives the benefit of finance sharing or using the partner financially among these grown up adults other than having sexual satisfaction without committing into marriage.

When grown up adults, right from the age of 20-40 is willing to have live-in-relationship and not marriage what sense can be there to legalize marriage right from the age of 10, to give the legal benefits of marriage?

May be after a decade or so, live-in-relationship will start right from the age of 10!!

 

[C RAVI]

Back in time, women delivered all the way until menopause (because contraceptives were not available then). It depends on the health of a woman, rather than age, as it always has been.

Back in time, women were confined at home, doing only house hold chores. They were not exposed to the environmental pollution of the present days. They were not into mechanical life of today. Adulteration was very meager and people had healthy food.

For the last few decades, the scenario is totally different. That's the reason hell lots of fertility center has mushroomed up!


Couples who were married after 30-35+ are going through lots of dysfunctions. From ED to Low active sperm counts in men and from the women's ovary issues to quality of women's eggs where her eggs are as old as her age and as fragile as her health is, in this mechanical life style. Hormonal imbalances are on rise and are leading to many complications in men and women.

Thus, considering the women of back in time, we can not sit back and relax, generally considering that, today's older women too have the high ability to conceive, carry and successfully deliver healthy baby at 35+ of age. And that, such older ladies of today too have no risk to her life in going through pregnancy.

Because, the present truth is different and is visible to every one of us. We cannot deny today's reality.

 

[prasad1]

Raviji, you write post #90 did not read post#89.
Look around you, the world has changed, and you are being left behind.