Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity ?

[sapr333]

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Shri.KRS, I thought of addressing this point on priority,that, why my response to you in 'God Why' thread is still pending..

Frankly, I am still wondering myself how that 8 points could be relevant to my simple question of ' accomodating Hitler/Islamic conversion views upon the point of 'acceptance of all religioous views as one'..Since that being my own thread, Im taking my time to find yet another convincing point.. Thats the reason for delay.. I know you may call me as blind-folded or having mindset, but then, if I were a mindset person, then I wouldnt have opened that thread in quest for a God beyond religion..

Aggressive missionaries:- I'm clear that we have a clear cut law in this land, where conversion by inducement is called as a crime.. So where is the problem? Im sure all the law enforcing officer posts in our country is not manned by evangelists, and our democracy is quite effective and well appreciated globally too.. Are we talking in the air, without understanding the ground realities?

it is a numbers game and a target :- Again,touching upon the concept of ' Accomodation of all religions' (god why!), you should not be having a problem in accomodating a moslem who wants to kill an infidel (or) a christian who wants to follow the teachings of J.C 's statement ' To Proclaim his message of 'love' to all the corners of the world',without sword... And,with that, I dont find anything wrong in someone setting up a target to accomplish that mission..And as a believer of 'All religions are same', one has to accept this word of J.C too.

Comparing religions: Ambedkar compared and evaluated all religions and finally moved to Buddhism. Father of nation, Gandhi compared all religions and found content with hinduism.. I wonder why people are having issues with comparing religions?


Conversions based on personal change of faith occur at a very low rate all over the world in ALL religions:-

Conversions dont happen naturally..How one would change his faith unless he come to know/got access/knowledge about other faith and their teaching.. And this calls for a proclamation..Hope,these proclamations/preachings are perceived in the negative tone or as offensive. And also, im clear, one should not hurt others feeling, which again goes against all priniciples of religion. Having said that, conversions by force do happened in south america/goa etc, which are definitely a blot.


>>>Conversions in India occur mainly to Christianity based on inducements>>

I cannot agree with it.. Some one said here, Catholics hold the highest value of real estate in India only next to the govt establishments. I have heard someone saying, with few bags of rice people get converted.. Imagine with this much real estate, if inducement is all the objective, they could have sold their real estates and bought the entire wheat/rice production of the continent and dumped here to buy souls!!

Let me ask you this.. If money can buy souls, why not the same souls can be re-traded? Do you think Hindus of India are poor, in this modern era? Have you ever talked to a Christian and tired to buy his soul for a million dollar? Why are we not hearing the incidences or hue/cry that, Christians are getting re-converted? Again, Christian population is more centered around the towns/cities (where people are affluent), but not villages.

I think, the real grass root/phsyche of conversion is not yet figured out.. This is the same thing happened with the Catholic church of the 10th century.. They also brushed aside Islam,citing it as a killer religion and called Prophet Mohammed as an imposter.. A change of strategy happened only in the 13th century, until,when they took some effort to study Ibn Avveroes writings.

 

[kunjuppu]

reopened through request.. with a caution to bide by forum mission. thank you.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapr333,

My response below in 'blue':

Shri.KRS, I thought of addressing this point on priority,that, why my response to you in 'God Why' thread is still pending..

Frankly, I am still wondering myself how that 8 points could be relevant to my simple question of ' accomodating Hitler/Islamic conversion views upon the point of 'acceptance of all religioous views as one'..Since that being my own thread, Im taking my time to find yet another convincing point.. Thats the reason for delay.. I know you may call me as blind-folded or having mindset, but then, if I were a mindset person, then I wouldnt have opened that thread in quest for a God beyond religion..
I don't think I just call anyone as having a 'blind-folded' mind set without giving adequate back up.

In the past, you usually have warned me, if you were going to take time to respond, but this time you did not and days have passed since my last post. So, naturally, I had to assume that you were not going to respond.

Aggressive missionaries:- I'm clear that we have a clear cut law in this land, where conversion by inducement is called as a crime.. So where is the problem? Im sure all the law enforcing officer posts in our country is not manned by evangelists, and our democracy is quite effective and well appreciated globally too.. Are we talking in the air, without understanding the ground realities?
Sri sapr333, please do not insult my intelligence, not that I have a lot of it. The 'existing law' is the same answer I give to my Hindu friends who want to pass a law against ALL conversions.

You and I know that there are exactly 3 people so far have been prosecuted under this law in all of India. You and I know that 'inducements' and 'compulsions' are hard to define/prove. But it is an undenying fact that the evangelists and the Catholics (especially after the current Pope ascended to the 'throne') are targeting India for 'harvesting of the souls'. Do you want me post various information available on this to prove my point? Now, who is 'talking in the air', without understanding the ground realities?

it is a numbers game and a target :- Again,touching upon the concept of ' Accomodation of all religions' (god why!), you should not be having a problem in accomodating a moslem who wants to kill an infidel (or) a christian who wants to follow the teachings of J.C 's statement ' To Proclaim his message of 'love' to all the corners of the world',without sword... And,with that, I dont find anything wrong in someone setting up a target to accomplish that mission..And as a believer of 'All religions are same', one has to accept this word of J.C too.
This is where your logic completely fails you and I say you have a closed mind-set. I have been saying that 'all religions are true to their followers' and religions are culture based. You just can not accept this logic and keep on twisting the meaning of one of the greatest words ever said in a religion (Hinduism). While different religions lead to the same objective, their paths are different and not the same. This is the basic principle you do not seem to grasp. No one has the right to use inducements, force, trickery and false preaching. I never said that one can not take the message of JC in a peaceful manner to others. The contention here is that that is not happening in India.

Comparing religions: Ambedkar compared and evaluated all religions and finally moved to Buddhism. Father of nation, Gandhi compared all religions and found content with hinduism.. I wonder why people are having issues with comparing religions?
One can compare all religions on a personal level. What you are trying to do is to compare religions and come up with a winner and other losers based on this amorphic principle of absolute justice. I told you, it is like comparing different fruits to pick a winner. Different fruits suit to the tastes of different people and can not be compared to 'declare' a winner.

Conversions based on personal change of faith occur at a very low rate all over the world in ALL religions:-

Conversions dont happen naturally..How one would change his faith unless he come to know/got access/knowledge about other faith and their teaching.. And this calls for a proclamation..Hope,these proclamations/preachings are perceived in the negative tone or as offensive. And also, im clear, one should not hurt others feeling, which again goes against all priniciples of religion. Having said that, conversions by force do happened in south america/goa etc, which are definitely a blot.
Religion as a personal quest is necessarily an individual search for meaning. In marketing terms, it is a 'pull' rather than a 'push'. Procalamation is 'pushing'. So, it is open to abuse on compulsion, inducement, trickery and packaging. This is what is wrong with it.
>>>Conversions in India occur mainly to Christianity based on inducements>>

I cannot agree with it.. Some one said here, Catholics hold the highest value of real estate in India only next to the govt establishments. I have heard someone saying, with few bags of rice people get converted.. Imagine with this much real estate, if inducement is all the objective, they could have sold their real estates and bought the entire wheat/rice production of the continent and dumped here to buy souls!!
Come on, again, please do not insult my little intelligence. If Catholics overtly did that, they would have been booted out of India. That is why they are following a slow attrition method to spread with inducements, compulsions, trickery and packaging. And the evangelicals are doing it on a bigger scale.

Let me ask you this.. If money can buy souls, why not the same souls can be re-traded? Do you think Hindus of India are poor, in this modern era? Have you ever talked to a Christian and tired to buy his soul for a million dollar? Why are we not hearing the incidences or hue/cry that, Christians are getting re-converted? Again, Christian population is more centered around the towns/cities (where people are affluent), but not villages.
Look at your argument! Are you saying that the Hindus need to follow the same tactics as Christians and spend money to 'harvest' the souls? Do you understand anything about Hinduism?

I think, the real grass root/phsyche of conversion is not yet figured out.. This is the same thing happened with the Catholic church of the 10th century.. They also brushed aside Islam,citing it as a killer religion and called Prophet Mohammed as an imposter.. A change of strategy happened only in the 13th century, until,when they took some effort to study Ibn Avveroes writings.
It is figured out in India all right! Harvesting of souls with specific targets in mind is only possible if one understands the weakness of the sociological structure in India. This is done not for any religious purpose. This is purely political, as it happened in Sri Lanka.

These types of conversions have nothing to do with spirituality. They have everything to do to destroy other cultures and spread power. Unfortunately that is the name of the game.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

A last post from my end on this thread, in deferrence to Shri Kunjuppuji's post on heading to the forum's mission guidelines.


Sapr,


Some common propaganda done by christian missionaries:


1) Aggressive missionaries:
They vandalize hindu scriptures, create rift b/w communities, pit an indian against the other, insult our gods and goddesses to no end. And then claim to be functioning in a democratic country by honourable means. Sorry Sapr, no one buys this anymore.


2) Once can complain to police:
In a country ridden with mind-boggling crime, the last thing a man cheated by a missionary wud do is to register a poice complaint. The police have better things to do. In orissa, police have refused to register complaints against aggressive defrauding missionaries, calling it trivial cases, or not wanting to upset 'higher authorities', when has the indian polcie ever been efficient or been able to function without politicial interference, insolence by police partly contributed to the recent kandhamal violence.


3) Accomodating all religions:
Hindus accomodate all religions, islam allows for co-existence due to ayat 109.6 (not sure how much it works, but it does help create a moderate islam and moderate muslims have been raising their voice against the extremists in their religion). However, tehre is no such provision in chrisitanity, one must convert to christianity or be damned. Which is the reason why missionaries are so agressive and think they are doing god's work. How can any religion co-exist with a religion that seeks "christianity alone".

4)

it is a numbers game and a target :- Again,touching upon the concept of ' Accomodation of all religions' (god why!), you should not be having a problem in accomodating a moslem who wants to kill an infidel (or) a christian who wants to follow the teachings of J.C 's statement ' To Proclaim his message of 'love' to all the corners of the world',without sword... And,with that, I dont find anything wrong in someone setting up a target to accomplish that mission..And as a believer of 'All religions are same', one has to accept this word of J.C too.

Sure, provided the word of JC is truly that of JC. When i touched upon how different gnostic explanation of JC's teachings and the church doctrines are in an other thread, you typically refused to touch upon it or discuss it. Obviously a punyatma like JC wud not have asked people to "convert' or force to convert. Again, when church wants "christianity alone" there is no question of christians accomodating any other religion.

5)

Comparing religions: Ambedkar compared and evaluated all religions and finally moved to Buddhism. Father of nation, Gandhi compared all religions and found content with hinduism.. I wonder why people are having issues with comparing religions?

Ambedkar was not a religious scholar. His navayana is more like a matrerialist conflict-based school of thought that infringes itself upon buddhism. Except a few, how much of these 22 vows make any sense to anyone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_Buddhist_movement#22_Vows_of_Ambedkar
Ambedkar was a politician and a lawyer, nothing more.

Gandhi compared religion, not to demean any religion, but as personal quest for his own self, not to convert or impress upon other people or cause strife.


The issue with comparing religions, is that each have their own ideas, and there is no size that fits all. You may love your girl-friend and find her beautiful, but surely all yours friends may not get along with your girl-friend or find her beautiful, surely others will have their own preferences,...one can be brainwashed and fooled into thinking one way is the only way, over time he realizes his only way just happens to be one of the many ways.


6)

Conversions based on personal change of faith occur at a very low rate all over the world in ALL religions:-

Conversions dont happen naturally..How one would change his faith unless he come to know/got access/knowledge about other faith and their teaching.. And this calls for a proclamation..Hope,these proclamations/preachings are perceived in the negative tone or as offensive. And also, im clear, one should not hurt others feeling, which again goes against all priniciples of religion. Having said that, conversions by force do happened in south america/goa etc, which are definitely a blot.

Why does anyone need to market and sell religion like a door to door hawker? Its amusing that proselytizing is called "proclaiming".

Who gave the right to crazy zealots to distribute pamphlets to people waiting in a queue for darshan in thirumala. Conversions by force, that is by infringing upon personal convictions by brain-washing, creating unreast, taking advantage of difficulties in a family, making comparisons, (falsely) portraying one 'god' as the only god who can bring all sorts of miracles, (falsely) "proclaiming" one religion is so-called only true religion, is all sheer humbug; and still happens the world over (why only south america or goa, in the new world ofcourse no one can kill, obviously the church has devised various tactics in lieu of that).

7)

>>>Conversions in India occur mainly to Christianity based on inducements>>

I cannot agree with it.. Some one said here, Catholics hold the highest value of real estate in India only next to the govt establishments. I have heard someone saying, with few bags of rice people get converted.. Imagine with this much real estate, if inducement is all the objective, they could have sold their real estates and bought the entire wheat/rice production of the continent and dumped here to buy souls!!

oh well the church is well funded, it is rich, it can certainly afford to buy souls and fatten them with money, and it wud be foolishness to think the motive is all about spreading JC's word, when obviously erasing native cultures, creating internal strife, land control, territorial annexation, trade ties, etc are the motives. When christianity is diminishing in the west, the church has turned to the east to be able to survive as an entity.

8)

Let me ask you this.. If money can buy souls, why not the same souls can be re-traded? Do you think Hindus of India are poor, in this modern era? Have you ever talked to a Christian and tired to buy his soul for a million dollar? Why are we not hearing the incidences or hue/cry that, Christians are getting re-converted? Again, Christian population is more centered around the towns/cities (where people are affluent), but not villages.

Its a shame to trade in souls. Who has a million dollars to buy a soul? The church can do all that, not indians. India is not rich. It is to be noted that Hindus who reverted back to hinduism did not / do not do it for money. They come back after they find their new religion is 'hollow' and does not deliver all that it promises to deliver.

9)

I think, the real grass root/phsyche of conversion is not yet figured out.. This is the same thing happened with the Catholic church of the 10th century.. They also brushed aside Islam,citing it as a killer religion and called Prophet Mohammed as an imposter.. A change of strategy happened only in the 13th century, until,when they took some effort to study Ibn Avveroes writings.

obviously the real reason for conversion by money inducements is this: plain greed.

once 'educated' in their converted religion , obviously ppl tend to understand its 'hollowness' and try their best to nativize and copy the native faith; when dissatisfied with that, they end up reverting back to hinduism.

 

[hariharan1972]

My observations on the methods of the missionaries.


1. Missionaries use a two pronged strategy of appealing to both the religious "raja" and the "runk". They would befriend the brahmin, supposedly the "raja" of the hindu religion, who is desperate generally for a voice of support after having to cop up with abuse from every other quarter while at the same time seek to emancipate the lowest class of hindu society, condemned to be at the lowest end, runk, of the hindu caste hierarchy.

2. They would enroll in forums, usually in a neutral name or a "hindu" friendly name and try to obfuscate the facts about conversion. They would seek to sweep everything under the carpet of "religion being a personal choice" while actually paying scant regard for the fact.

3. Depending on the audience they resort to either overt or covert abuse of Hinduism. If the audience comprises of those who have "suffered" from the caste hierarchy, then blatant abuse of Hinduism is "par for the course". If the audience is elite or supposedly the beneficiaries of the caste hierarchy then the language becomes sober and the message, subtle.

4. Create a "web of questions". Question everything. Question fundamentals. Exaggerate. (Ex : Pencil-Eraser thefts are taken up by the Police and "regularly reported" in the print media)

5. NEVER ANSWER.

6. Cirumvent. Ex : How can someone convert for a bag of rice ? (*)

7. Study Hindu texts well and gain "insider information".

8. Call the "takeover" of culture as "Integration" and shut off any further discussions.

9. Invite friends and create a 'phony' conversation about conversion and use it as the platform to proselytize.

10. Most importantly, use the "new converts" especially if he is a "Brahmin covert" to drive home the "supposed message" of Jesus Christ.

(*) Missionaries dont promise just a bag of rice. They "promise" a continuous flow of rice, which to an impoverished person is escape from the clutches of poverty.

An article in outlook covered as to how an entire village in Orissa was "converted" after the missionaries promised them regular stipends, money for building church and a "radio station".

Read this Tehelka scoop on church planting movement.

Tehelka - The People's Paper

I have no doubts that this will also be denied.

 

[[email protected]]

to sapr 333, sir I don't know about 20and 30 years back,but just 14years ,the conversion is more.My area is called Proffessors Colony and the Land sold by Srinivasa Iyengar(Inamdhar land)through Madras Chiristion College.The occupants of Govt Vacant land and the Missionery(support from MCC)slowly with Money,and muscular power get patta to those occupants.Some of our Ministers also followers of jesus.So it become handy to get and reach their Goal.My figures based on my areaof just Professors colony only. SRk.

 

[[email protected]]

To KRS Yes it is True.sr.k.

 

[sapr333]

going on a holiday now....Yeah, gonna be so cool, for next 5 days

Will come back to see where the 'Twisting by the pool' discussions have lead to..

In the mean time, you may all run a brain storming session, and explore way to control the 'incontrollable conversions'... Dont forget, Legislators are not going to buy your points, so, make the discussion bit more realistic..Thank you.

 

[T.S.Sankara Narayanan]

In many cases ,I am seeing People attracted to other Religions and the decisions taken by them are out of Emotional like Suciders do.If they wait and think for a moment they would not have chosen to Convert.
Some of our community had fallen in love with those people.Perhaps very high intellectuals and fair looking people are more in our community than all others.
It is like Inter caste marriages,which will seem to delight them for some days or months but wont delight them throughout the life.
" Emmmadhamum Sammadham innu Sollum Muttal Paya Namma Hindu vahathan Iruppan"
No Christian or a Muslim will never say that word.
Hinduism is Eternal....
Hinduism is Deeper Than Oceans....
Hinduism is a Real Friend,Teacher,Philosofer,and everything...
Not only because I am a Brahmin, I am Proud of being a Hindu as I know well about Christianity as I studied in Those Institutions.
If their input is stopped,there will be no christians to convert people.
Foreign machinaries are flooding crores of money on Indian Churches.The fathers,Bishops are roaming will High Class Cars on roads in search of innocents for conversions.All bogus Secular Parties headed by Cong. never care these Foreign Inputs.They spend few thousands to these innocents and plunder lakhs of money.
If the CBI or any other Intelligence depts had a massive eye on these Christian Churches No Hindu will be converted to Christianity.
Then Muslims.Just as L.Ganesan ji said,"All Muslims in India may not be Terrorists....But all Terrorists in India are Muslims.."
Few economically rich Muslims encourages Conversion and utilise these converted people for their Terrorist Operations.
Here also the Home Ministry has to be blamed.It not only fails to stop the introdures from Pakistan and Bangaladesh for want of Muslim Votes.
Home Ministry became a Useless Ministry continuously during all Cong Govts.
Only Patriotic Govts will put an end to Terrorism and Conversion.

 

[[email protected]]

To T.S.S.N sir, Thank you very much for your reply. Good.We must learn lessons from our failures. We failed in teaching our younger generation reg,Moral lessons and Patriotism in school. s.r.k.

 

[anandb]

Hey Sapr

going on a holiday now....Yeah, gonna be so cool, for next 5 days

Will come back to see where the 'Twisting by the pool' discussions have lead to..

In the mean time, you may all run a brain storming session, and explore way to control the 'incontrollable conversions'... Dont forget, Legislators are not going to buy your points, so, make the discussion bit more realistic..Thank you.

Have a good holiday and when you come back read the following two links. It can provide you some answers about some questions you raised before.

Hindu Wisdom - Seafaring in Ancient India
Crusade Watch, Religious Conversion Watch, Evangelism watch - The truth about World Vision

Personally if you ask me to choose between a sword wielding jihadi muslim and a zealous Christian missionary in white robes, I will go for the former as at least I know he is coming to kill me so i can protect myself but with the padri smiling so sweetly, one never knows.

 

[hariharan1972]

Have a good holiday and when you come back read the following two links. It can provide you some answers about some questions you raised before.

You are wasting your time anandb ji. Please remember you are dealing with a master obfuscator.

If you think that he is "interested in answers", please banish the thought.

He is throwing the gauntlet that the missionaries arent going to change, stop them if you can.

So instead of we "running" (wonder who's running here !) a brainstorming session, perhaps it may be worthwhile for him to use his good offices with the church that he belongs to, to cajol them into toning down their vituperativeness towards hinduism. If he is brave enough, perhaps this could be the best service he could do to his former faith.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

Sri sapr333 has done this before. When he can not answer, he disappears for a while.

I have to say that perhaps if I were him I would do the same.

Th points he obfuscates are these:

1. He is not admitting that in India there are missionaries who use inducements and other means to convert. He seems inherently unable to admit to this situation. There is not a single admission from him on this score - he did not answer a direct question from Sri Hari on the B'lore Church publishing things about our Goddesses as you know what. Instead, he keeps on saying that we are against all conversions - no one here is saying that a true conversion as a personal choice is wrong.

2. We have allowed him free access to this site, even though we knew he is a Christian (his protests not withstanding), because of his statements that he wishes our religion well. But his arguments on this topic alone have brought in to question his intentions in this Forum.

3. If I go to a Christian or a Muslim Forum and had the temerity to take stands against their religion such as he has taken here, I would have been booted out long time ago. But we are not like that. And so he takes full advantage of our civil nature to state things without any reflection on the truth.

4. The usual canard in India on Hinduism is that you blame everything on Hindutva, BJP, RSS and VHP and for the most part, rightly so. But what he does not understand is the depth of feeling within ordinary Hindus created by this issue as they see by themselves anecdotally the spread of Christianity, in particular. Instead of starting a meaningful dialog to directly address this, he runs away.

5. And lastly I am very proud that we, on our part while conveying a tough message to him, were civil in our discussions. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS

 

[silverfox]

Sweet-talking christians

..................................
Personally if you ask me to choose between a sword wielding jihadi muslim and a zealous Christian missionary in white robes, I will go for the former as at least I know he is coming to kill me so i can protect myself but with the padri smiling so sweetly, one never knows.

A very good one, Anandb!

 

[RVR]

Again and again only Islam and Christianity are coming for discussion in this forum. At my younger days, I had my head shaved at Nagore Durga. I have visited Velankanni Church. In my native place, my father use to get the marriage invitation printed in a Muslim friends press. He use to get the `thali' and other jewels for marriage from a Muslim friends shop.

Few muslims have turned terrorists and are harming the entire community and also the entire society. I request muslim intellectuals to pass on the right message to the entire community so that entire world can live in peace.

Let christians follow jesus christ. Christian missionery hospitals and colleges are doing good service to the community. But this service should not have a hidden motive. Why do you think Christ is the only God. The problem starts only there. When Pope visited India last time, I was surprised to see his statement that India has very low percentage of christians. By making such a statement, you are degrading your self.

Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and other religions don't indulge in conversion to their faith. Conversion either by force or by inducement will not be good for any religion.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Venkatramani Ji,

In India, where I lived, my neighbours were Christians (opposite house), a Muslim household (house to our immediate right), an Iyengar home (diagonal left opposite), Chozhia Brahmin (to the immediate left) and a Mudaliar (two homes next to the Muslim household. We are Tanjore Smartha Brahmins. We had Chettiars, more muslims and Christians as well as Brahmins from Telugu Desam and Palghat living in our neighbourhood. Throw in an Anglo Indian Christian family who lived at the end of our street, we had the complete patina of the nation living in a small neighbourhood. All children played together street football and cricket and we visited each other's homes after play to drink whatever refreshment available. After specific holiday functions, sweets would arrive and were sent to all others and were accepted with joy.

No one complained when we children set off Lakshmi Vedi or Shivaji vedi or 'atom' bomb very near to our opposite home of Christians, waking them up at 5:00 AM, invariably with the noise during Deepavali (even though we were instructed not to light crackers and vedis before sunrise by our elders in deference to our neighbours' comfort). We were even invited to the Sunneth function of my boyhood muslim friends from the next house. Everyone was invited to each other's wedding functions.

All this was possible, because there was a basic respect towards each other. No one ridiculed other's way of life. We lived and let live. And so did everyone.

Somehow this has changed over the years. Mainly because of these types of religon based frictions we are talking about here. Well is poisoned. I worry about the future of India, because of this.

Unless one is willing to admit to a problem, we can not move forward. Process starts at a place where interfaith dialogs should first start with admitting to certain problems existing. If we close our eyes and insist on denying the truth (as Sri sapr333 has done here), we will go nowhere.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri KRS ji,

I also accept friction has started. But we have to do the root cause analysis and solve it. Other wise the problem will continue and burst at times.

In my analysis, the recent converts are the problem. They have an identity crisis. These people cannot explain why they converted. They are trying to invent reasons and convince others. To prove oneupmanship among their new colleagues, they try to create all sort of problems. Those who already follow a faith for few generations, need not have to prove anything new. Communal tensions are mostly created by new converts.

Only intellectuals among different religions can unite under single platform and find solutions to the issue.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Possible reasons for Q1 include : a) Not getting a fair deal in existing religion, b) lure of money/power/other benefits c) People may get genuinely impressed by the preachings of other religions etc.

Can't figure out any response to Q2. No one knowns what happens after death. Kind of looking into a black hole, not knowing what lies beyond. Ofcourse, there are several theories on this found in all religions. Hinduism ofers most elaborate description of after-death life in the form of re-incarnations, moksha, mukti.......

Answer to Q3 is simple, Hinduism is a way of life, anyone can lead the life of a hindu with full freedom of being a monotheist/polytheist/atheist/agnostic etc. etc. So, if someone wants to make a lateral entry/re-entry into brahminism, guess he or she would stand to lose his credentials in the old-boy network and will have to start afresh in establishing new network of similar re-entrants and hope that people will forget the issue after some years or after some generations and can hope to get assilimated in the fold.

It would be great anyone can clarify the following:-

1.Why people are converting to Islam/Christianity ?
2.What will be happen to them after death ?
3.If the converted people, wants to come back to community (as a Brahmin) Can they ? If "Yes" How ? If "No" Why ?

 

[RAAJESHRAGHAVAN]

Dear Gladguy,

Converting from one religion to another is nothing special. But the way of conversion is the problem. If someone gets converted by force mentally/physically/emotionally/financially then it is wrong. And with respect to what will happen to them also is not an easy one. If one gets accustomed to the new surroundings then he will feel good.

One thing alll must remember
Aakashathu Pathitham Thoyaam Yadagachathi Saagaram
Sarvadeva Namaskarahah Kesavam Pradigachathi

Worship of all gods leads us to the same path.

Rajesh

 

[sapr333]

shri.krs,

i was quite embaressed to see tht kinda post.

0 i need to write long, which is bit difficult with thisT9 mode n single fingrr typing.

will respond in detail once i log in to my machine...hopefully , few hours...

 

[sapr333]

Shri.KRS, I was quite surprised by this..

Oh me!! obfuscating!!


Btw,Let me tell you straight!!.....I never escaped answering any genuine worthwhile meaningful points,which were relevant to the forum mission or thread objective. Whenever I missed the important points, I always stated them as pending, in my post scripts.. Didn't I tell you in GodWhy thread that my response on Freewill / Analogy of many languages-God etc etc are still pending, in my post scripts?

The case here is different. When Moderator's first general warning came in #48, I put a brake, except sharing some clarifications about one of your subsequent post,that too, just because it came from you ( Mod).. And I was also clear and cautious, that I should also stay away from this thread, since I also concured with moderators view on closing this thread.But, when the closing of thread and subsequent opening of this thread happened, I made up myself not to venture here, thankfully it concided with my holiday break.

If you could have a re look in to my post #58, I have voluntarily informed members that Im gonna take a 4 days break (which you made fun of me, saying Im ducking the question), and my point out there was also quite thoughful in requesting forum members to talk in terms of reality/practicallity ie, Legislative aspects of controling conversion..

If I could go deep down, on the same day when the originator of this thread send me a P.M (a first time interaction) stating that he appreciated my stand and wanted to share some video link stating " I want to make a point that people are convertingbecause of some loopholes in our tradition.", I have only wrote to him back saying "Ok, but please take moderators in to confidence, before posting such stuffs"..If you have an admin. access to my mail box, you are free to check this too.. Trust I have made my stand clear.

Having said that, I humbly request you to take back the word of stating that "Im obfuscating".. In good forum spirit, I was Ok with Shri.Hari making such statements.Painfully, I didn't expect that from a Moderator.

Secondly, If you feel the posts of fellow members were in line with the mission of our forum, then,you, as a moderator give me a green signal in 'red text', , I would be glad, to face them all in the firing line and respond every single line, under your strict moderation, starting from coming Sunday..Frankly I dont find any difficulty in responding to those questions..



some of the crispy responses to your campaigning post:-

even though we knew he is a Christian>>

Where did I reveal my identity of caste/creed/religion? How much this statement is different from some one (few months ago), who came in public calling me as a 'Spaniard?' Btw, what you mean by this 'WE".. Us Us Us, and them,them them,And after all were only ordinary men. Do you want me see how i can also sport a 'scull cap' or Thirthankara shoes, but still headon with the same healthy discussions?


>>>He is not admitting that in India there are missionaries who use inducements and other means to conver>>

Am I a Pope or Bishop or mullah?. I can only set my arugments based on the Indian legal system's zero conviction rates about forced conversions, and our legislators inability to fine tune the law to catch the culprits, if they exists so, in such a large numbers. If you are expecting me to talk the same.like the way how you want them to me, then there is no need for all these forums/thread in this world.. Rather, we can have a bunch of 'Yes Primeministers"

That was an interesting instance, when someone told me,that, Shankraraman for sure must have been murdered!!, But, my honest& quick response to that person was, that,: "my eyes havent seen it, so, he should wait for what our Indian legal system's verdict"..Should I give my emotional opinion or legal opinion?. Am I wrong in taking such stand?


>>If I go to a Christian or a Muslim Forum and had the temerity to take stands against their religion such as he has taken here, I would have been booted out long time ago>>

Why just a Muslim site, even if you go to a sang parivar/RSS sites,and talk the same way , for sure you would get booted.. btw, this is an irrelevant matter to discuss.


>>And lastly I am very proud that we, on our part while conveying a tough message to him, were civil in our discussions.>>

So do I. You yourself accepted that my posts have been civil in nature, if not let me know where I crossed the forum rules or "Forum Mission'.So why a tough message here?

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

there are certain threads that i avoid, because i feel they go against my basic faith in the goodness of humans.

beyond living a life here in this earth without harming other humans, we leave it to our faith (or lack of it) to take care of our ethos as defined by our values.

some threads are divisive in their very nature, what i call devil's air. the nature of this thread, i think, is one of them.

with that preamble, i wish to iterate that this forum is a hindu centric tamil brahmin focused field, with the players, i hope, implicitly accepting the rules.

not much unlike playing football with football rules. as opposed to playing the game of the english, with the game of the americans, with the same name. same-name game, different rules. cannot apply one to the other.

the world is very large, to accommodate, humans, and other earthlings, of all colours, shapes, sounds and angers. in this context, i think, one needs to find to find gamerooms on one's own interest and skillsets.

we can all go forever, playing this one upmanship, nitpicking philosphies and faiths, move about in circles only to return to our starting point, to be left with bad breath and a need to take a bath.

the web world is surprisingly small, inspite of being universal.

the mission of this website is published very clearly.

it is the decent thing to behave within the confines of this mission statement. it is also the honourable thing to do, which personally, i think, that you as a honourable person, will do.

it is easy to behave like a fox in a chicken coop. that is indeed the weakness of this forum and its adminstrators, as i think, we give the benefit of a 'aura of decent behaviour' by default to every member.

we hope members do not misuse this trust. it is the hope that members here wish the forum's mission well, and in this context, KRS' or hari's remarks about your postings is very much their effort to defend their temple.

subscribing to this forum, as a bona fide member, and in deference to your intellect and honesty and sincerety, i request to acknowledge, with all good faith, to the mission of this forum. above all, compliance to the spirit of this place.

there are close to million other forums, where the inhumanity of the vedic faith or the callousness of the tamil brahmins are discussed. depending on one's background or aims, with intensity and vehemance where logic is lacking.

the best arguements are whispered, and scream out loud due to their simplicity and adherence to truth. no need to nitpick there.

within the confines of this forum, krs & hari are caretakers and nourishers. i was perhaps naive, to hope, that you too, would become an 'owner' here. perhaps, praveen, like me, believes in the goodness of people

i wish to let you know, this trust, in this forum was earned by me. it did not come due to my name, supposed antecedents and above all, a proclamation of my faith in brahminism, whatever that may be.

you sir, are above pettiness as expressed by fanaticism, as i imagine you. you and me, are on similar wavelength. so it is with dismay, that i read these previous posts of yours...

you have always tuned on to my cues and strung the music from my tunes. i would like it to be continued, but not at the cause of angst or rhetoric to KRS, hari or happyhindu. i am afraid, that i would have to cast my vote....

please be aware, that this web world is indeed a micro world, all within the radius of the circle of cyber life. we may not 'know' each other here, but we recognize our accents, slangs and signatures.

in between the above lines, there are nuances. unsaid words. and my own hopes for you...............

sapr, i wish this post not be quibble by you. i am quite sure you know what i am trying to say. you have been the foremost to understand the subtlety of my posts. pray let us keep it that way.

thank you.

'eli, eli, lama sabcthani'!! .. all said with the noblest of intentions...

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri kunjuppu Ji,

Thank you for a very classy response to Sri sapr333. I appreciate the tone and I also want to absolutely make clear that I do not make fun of anyone in this Forum. I always like to think that if I use certain words to charecterize the actions of someone, I think through the situation and carefully mark my words.

In a lot of ways, my frequency is also akin to sapr333;s and yours, believe it or not. But then I have, as a member and a moderator of this forum, a solemn duty to uphold the mission and the objectives of this forum, along with safeguarding our community's interest. I can not compromise on that. And in this respect the 'we', sri sapr333 talks about is the TB community. And once we tag a 'we', unfortunately, there is also a 'they'. It is like a male and a female, yin and yang. The only way to bridge the difference between 'we' and 'they' is to understand the issues with each other with empathy and understanding and listening carefully.

I don't want to keep on harping on this, but Sri sapr333 came in to this Forum with material that attacked Hinduism in many ways. We accommodated that. But then, in many a postings following that he said that he did not know much about Hinduism and then went on to suggest that Hinduism needs a theological revision (I am paraphrasing). Such assertions over time (I can cite many more examples) and his habit of finding faults with only certain religions (of course with a few exceptions of Christianity that were in the dustbin of history and well documented), and his motheistic view along certain theology tells me that he is not what he is claiming to be: in terms of philosophy/religion, he is a 'tabla rasa'.

My words in this thread are my opinions (not from a moderator's perspective as I did not post in 'red') and I can substantiate each one of my sentences. They were not made in anger, nor were they made to make fun of Sri sapr333 and emberrass him.

Discussions are good, if they are made on good faith on both sides.

Now regarding moderation, I only cautioned sapr333 to not make statements about Hinduism without properly reading our scriptures or understanding our religion. I have never told him not to defend his views in a logical manner. He knows this.

I owe him a response to his detailed posting above, which I will do shortly.

Regards,
KRS

Now,

 

[hariharan1972]

sapr,

a few fundamentals.

"you are obfuscating" is not a slur, for starters.

it is a statement of fact as perceived by someone. i am certain that you have had the benefit of appearing in few examinations during the course of your education and hence i hope, you would be aware, that whether you have answered to the questioner's satisfaction is not something that YOU determine but something the questioner determines.

your best effort may not be sufficient to satisfy the questioner.

since you claim to have displayed 'good forum spirit', pray, why then you have diverted the focus of this thread from 'why conversions are happening' to 'what is wrong with conversions'. it smacks of double standards.

your claim of displaying good forum spirits, if anything, is apocryphal.

you havent answered the basic question, whose answer can only be binary.

is the abuse of hinduism by the missionaries, correct or not ?

why dont you dare answering it.

instead of that, you are trying to take refuge under the claim that any forced conversion will be reported to the authorities.

pray how long have you lived in india ? do you honestly believe that "every offence" is getting reported to the authorities ?

how naive you want us to be ? and how convenient for you !

instead of waking and smelling coffee about conversions, you are trying to lecture the forum about the impracticability of a legal solution ?

huh ?!?

quite immodestly sapr, i certainly believe that my understanding of legality is at the minimum a trifle better than yours.....i have, if you would want to know, passed more examinations on law than what you can think of.

so, if you must argue, argue on facts and not what you want us to believe.

personally, i am even ok, if you would resort to proselytization in this very forum, it is for the mods and mr praveen who will take a final call on this, but dont attempt to cloak your blatant attempts to obfuscate as forum spirit.

i have been writing on forums for years now and very famously i have said to someone who knows me, 'i am the principal of the college where you are a day scholar.'

i repeat it again, this time, for you.

 

[happyhindu]

Where did I reveal my identity of caste/creed/religion? How much this statement is different from some one (few months ago), who came in public calling me as a 'Spaniard?' Btw, what you mean by this 'WE".. Us Us Us, and them,them them,And after all were only ordinary men. Do you want me see how i can also sport a 'scull cap' or Thirthankara shoes, but still headon with the same healthy discussions?

Sapr,

This part requires me to clarify since i am the one who mistook you as a non-indian. The fact that your postings are so pro-missionary, pro-christian, frequently making negative comments on hindusim, made (makes) me feel that you are a christian.

And the fact that you know more about western 'philosophies and western 'philosophers' and so little about indian (hindu) ones made me feel that a non-indian could be like this. Perhaps your integration with a non-indian culture is so complete (coupled with the fact that you seem to know little about native hindu scriptures, philosophies, etc), that it made me misunderstand your origin. Googled and found a few comments made by the handlename sapr in spanish, and very foolishly thot you were a spaniard. For this assumption, i apologise.

However, as regards missionary activities, i just have one question to ask you:
Do you think the vandalizing of hindu scriptures and derogatory stuff published by missionaries on hindu gods and goddesses is an ethical thing to do (just to be able to harvest numbers) ?

Regards.