Religious conversion

[prasad1]

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This thread was about religious conversion, and not about schoolboy prank of seeing who can piss the farthest.
If we all agree on the infinite Brahman, then these petty differences do not account for much. There is no need to fight among us.
The religious conversion is an external threat.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Sivappazham Chandru Sir,

If saivism does not encourage idol worship, why do we find a Nataraja, a Ganesha, a Subramanya, a Chandikeswara and a Amman idols in each and every Shiva temple? Have you visited the Madurai Temple. There is Meenakshi, Sundareswarar (Linga form), Subramanya, Ganesha and a Nataraja there. Have you visited the Tirunelveli Kanthimathi Amman Temple? There is a Nellaiyappar (LInga form), a kanthimathi Amman, A Subramanyar, a Ganesha and a Nataraja too. Have you visited the Mylapore temple? The same story there too. In all these places Dikshitars have no say. In fact I have not come across a single Shiva temple without these idols there.

What is the principle to be adopted by Vaishnavism to survive. Please enlighten us.

What is the practice you were mentioning in Vaishnavism.

Lord Shiva worship is primarily in the form of Lingam only; whether it is South, North, East or West. There may be exceptions but it has to be explained by the concerned people only.

Lord Ganesha and Lord Subramanya are supposed to be sons of Lord Shiva coming under Ganathipadhyam and Gowmaram Sects in idol forms only.

I am residing in Mylapore and writing this Blog after returning from Temple.

In my earlier Blog, I mentioned, except Vaishnavism, all other four sects have merged and come under Shiva worship.

Vaishnavism has to shun human worship, due to this, every 100 years one human being becomes a God.

Except, Tamil Nadu, in all other places Vaishnavite worship relates to God Men like Rama, Krishna. In Tamil Nadu, Vaishanavites give importance to God (effect of Saivism); Srirangam, Thirupathi (was earlier with Tamil Nadu).

What is the significance of Thiruman ? (edited the original and rephrased - praveen)

 

[Vaagmi]

The dancing Nataraja is not supposed to be worshipped at home, fyi. Please do not bare your ignorance in full sight, you are only demeaning yourself. The linga represents the formless and endless pillar of light, which cannot be construed as an idol.
The 'ammans' are also formless. Fire needs water as a balancing and cooling force which is what 'ammans' symbolize. And as an aside, the ash smeared by Saivites represent the one and only reality to which you too are subject to.
Btw, what does your three-pronged white and red naamam signify? Siva's trident? LOL..

My dear Ash,

1. You have jumped in between me and Sri Chandru to exhibit your empty top container. LOL. Now let me fill it up for your benefit. If you want I can give you the addresses of any number of people who have Nataraja idol at home and worshipping it to. They may say you perhaps do not know the saivite practices. The linga may be formless for you but it is a form that is worshipped in the temple by the hundreds of Hindus who go to the temple. Similarly the Amman idol also. If you close your eyes the world will not come to the end. When you open your eyes again you will find the world has bypassed you and gone ahead leaving you behind wondering what is happening. LOL. More than half the population in the world do not end up as ash-holy or unholy/vibhuti. That settles your reality theory. It is good to read religious literature but thinking along as you read is more important. Try to take this advice seriously friend.

2. And for the doubt about the three pronged thing please refer to my PM. LOL.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

You are super intelligent but is it necessary to taunt and tease the sacred religious symbols, though for fun! :sad:

I request you to kindly edit those portions. Thank you!

 

[Vaagmi]

Lord Shiva worship is primarily in the form of Lingam only; whether it is South, North, East or West. There may be exceptions but it has to be explained by the concerned people only.
Lord Ganesha and Lord Subramanya are supposed to be sons of Lord Shiva coming under Ganathipadhyam and Gowmaram Sects in idol forms only.
I am residing in Mylapore and writing this Blog after returning from Temple.
In my earlier Blog, I mentioned, except Vaishnavism, all other four sects have merged and come under Shiva worship.
Vaishnavism has to shun human worship, due to this, every 100 years one human being becomes a God.
Except, Tamil Nadu, in all other places Vaishnavite worship relates to God Men like Rama, Krishna. In Tamil Nadu, Vaishanavites give importance to God (effect of Saivism); Srirangam, Thirupathi (was earlier with Tamil Nadu).
What is the significance of Double Dynamo (two white marks) and one Danger LIght (one red mark).

Dear Chandru,

Now let me probe you a little.

Do you know people have taken lingam to mean a phallus(the male sexual organ)? And Europeans have made fun of us saying that we worship phallus in the temple? And are you aware that there is a school of thought among the saivites themselves that says the erect stump of the idol is the phallus and the lower holding portion of the idol which is called Avudaiyar (ஆவுடையார்) is a yoni(a female sex organ)?

Ganapatyam and kowmaaram might have been different religions which were brought under the saivism. But that does not explain still the Devi idols in all the major Sicva temples. Madurai temple and Kashi temples are older than Sankara's time. They have prominent Amman Sannidhis in them along with Ganapathy and Murugan sannidhis. That needs an explanation if your line of argument is right.

You are perhaps not aware that the predominent vaishnavite sect called Swaminarayan sect in Gujarat which has a huge following with many temples etc., was started by Swaminarayan who came to South India and was a student under the guidance of Sri Ramanuja. So that reveals the hollowness of your claim that Except TN in other places....... etc., If Swaminarayan temple has got the human form as you claim it is out of a conscious choice and philosophy wise they are one with the other vaishnavites.

The double dynamo and danger light has been explained already to your friend Ash in my previous post. Please read it and satisfy yourself. Your thirst for knowledge impresses me beyond words.

And please do not forget to answer my questions in the first two paras of this post. Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

You are super intelligent but is it necessary to taunt and tease the sacred religious symbols, though for fun! :sad:

I request you to kindly edit those portions. Thank you!

Madam,

I am sorry. I have not teased. I have stated the facts as they are. They are not my inventions. This matter has been discussed in this forum earlier too. Please ask Mr. K and Renukaji. I remember they had contributed to that well informed discussion. Please go through the archives. I am not super intelligent and I consider that as a taunt. If you want I can even give you the references and link to that discussion in which a vaishnavite defended and gave the real meaning of the word linga as propounded by Vivekananda and how the Europeans have misinterpreted the term linga. I dont think there is any need to delete anything. They are facts. Let us respect truth.

And I note with dismay that you do not have any advice to those who have started this line of discussion.

And when I thought about it I decided to send that post as a PM to the concerned person to avoid discomfiture to people like you.

Regards.

 

[Raji Ram]

......... And when I thought about it I decided to send that post as a PM to the concerned person to avoid discomfiture to people like you. ........

Thank you very much Sir.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

When I was searching for information on Religious conversions in India, I stepped into some interesting information, one among them was, that the printing in First non European language was Tamil. Here is a brief account of the same:

தமிழின் முதல் அச்சு புத்தகம்
"ஆகாசமும் பூமியும் படச்சவன் சர்வமும் ஆனவனே, பிதாவே தம்பிரானே விசுவாசம். அவ்வண்ணம் என்னடே கர்த்தாவே யேசு கிறிஸ்து அவ்வனடே புத்ரனே ஒருவனே. சுத்தமான சித்தத்தினொடெய கருணே கொண்டு கெற்பம் ஆயி: கன்னியாஸ்திரி மரியத்தில் பெறந்தவன்: போஞ்சியு பிலாத்து விதித்த விதிகொண்டு வெசனப்பட்டு: குருசினில் தூக்கிச் செத்தான்: குழில் வைத்து.."

Above is a passage is from the first Tamil Printed book " Thambiran Vanakkam" (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) printed in India in 1578. It is a matter of record Tamil was the first non-European Language to be printed in movable type. The credit should go to the untiring efforts of a Portuguese Jesuit Priest Fr.Anrique Anriquez (1520–1600) better known as Fr.Henrique Henriques, who spent most of his life in missionary activities among Paravars in South India. He strongly believed that books of religious doctrines should be in local languages and to this end he wrote books in Tamil. The first such book printed in Tamil Script was Thambiran Vanakkam (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) (1578), a 16-page translation of the Portuguese “Doctrina Christam”. It was followed by Kirisithiyaani Vanakkam (கிரிசித்தியானி வணக்கம்)(1579). These were works of catechism, containing the basic prayers of Catholicism. Before this ‘Cartilha’, a Tamil prayer book printed using Latin script, was printed in Lisbon by command of the King of Portugal and financed by the Paravar Christians community of Tuticorin, who also helped with scholarly assistance. The first known Tamil typeset for printing was cast in 1577 at Goa by a Spanish Jesuit Fr Juan Gonsalvez "who succeeded in making Malauar (Tamil) printing press". The first Tamil Book "Tambiranvanakkam" was printed in this Printing Press at Kollam, Malabar.
Fr Henrique Henriques is sometimes called The Father of the Tamil Press. After his death his mortal remains were buried in Our Lady of Snows Basilica in Tuticorin, India.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Chandru,

Now let me probe you a little.

Do you know people have taken lingam to mean a phallus(the male sexual organ)? And Europeans have made fun of us saying that we worship phallus in the temple? And are you aware that there is a school of thought among the saivites themselves that says the erect stump of the idol is the phallus and the lower holding portion of the idol which is called Avudaiyar (ஆவுடையார்) is a yoni(a female sex organ)?

Ganapatyam and kowmaaram might have been different religions which were brought under the saivism. But that does not explain still the Devi idols in all the major Sicva temples. Madurai temple and Kashi temples are older than Sankara's time. They have prominent Amman Sannidhis in them along with Ganapathy and Murugan sannidhis. That needs an explanation if your line of argument is right.

You are perhaps not aware that the predominent vaishnavite sect called Swaminarayan sect in Gujarat which has a huge following with many temples etc., was started by Swaminarayan who came to South India and was a student under the guidance of Sri Ramanuja. So that reveals the hollowness of your claim that Except TN in other places....... etc., If Swaminarayan temple has got the human form as you claim it is out of a conscious choice and philosophy wise they are one with the other vaishnavites.

The double dynamo and danger light has been explained already to your friend Ash in my previous post. Please read it and satisfy yourself. Your thirst for knowledge impresses me beyond words.

And please do not forget to answer my questions in the first two paras of this post. Thanks.

Interpretation can be made in so many ways, according to one's convenience.

There is a section of society used to think Krishna's activities as 'Play Boy' in nature; with three wives and play with girls during his younger days. Hindu culture does not approve such activities now. Therefore, will you change your views on Krishna now?

Saivism's presiding deity is Lord Shiva. Of the other four, three (Saktham, Ganadhipathyam and Gowmram) are mingled with Saivism, which have Idol worship, and Vaishanavism has gone separate.

Yes; in Tamil Nadu, Vaishnavism is dependent on Gods - Srirangam, Thirupathi, Kanchipuram etc. and Krishna and Rama have popularity mostly with Brahmins and less with NBs. Tamil Nadu Rationalists' staunch attack on Rama and Krishna had its telling effect on their popularity.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Chandru Sir,

Saivism's presiding deity is Lord Shiva. Of the other four, three (Saktham, Ganadhipathyam and Gowmram) are mingled with Saivism, which have Idol worship, and Vaishanavism has gone separate.

Do you have any proof? Any thing to refer to?

When did this mingling take place? Who was instrumental to this mingling?

Yes; in Tamil Nadu, Vaishnavism is dependent on Gods - Srirangam, Thirupathi, Kanchipuram etc. and Krishna and Rama have popularity mostly with Brahmins and less with NBs. Tamil Nadu Rationalists' staunch attack on Rama and Krishna had its telling effect on their popularity.

OK. Vaishnavism is dependent on Gods? And what about Saivism? What does it depend on? Linga? If yes then it takes you to the next question. What is this Linga? God or not? If not what else is it?

There is a section of society used to think Krishna's activities as 'Play Boy' in nature; with three wives and play with girls during his younger days. Hindu culture does not approve such activities now. Therefore, will you change your views on Krishna now?

What about Muruga? How many wives he has got? Have you read Sivapurana? There is a story about how Aswini Devas were born. Please read it first and come and tell me what is your impression. In your younger days have you never played with girls? Which authoritative text of hindu culture speaks about this as bad activity? Please quote. What are my views on Krishna? How do you know them to want me to change them now?

 

[kanchankapoor]

In metro cities there is NO religion. We celebrate Diwali Christmas equally. If a religion or caste becoming harmful for others, just because they are high in numbers then there is a problem.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

When I was searching for information on Religious conversions in India, I stepped into some interesting information, one among them was, that the printing in First non European language was Tamil. Here is a brief account of the same:

தமிழின் முதல் அச்சு புத்தகம்
View attachment 3319"ஆகாசமும் பூமியும் படச்சவன் சர்வமும் ஆனவனே, பிதாவே தம்பிரானே விசுவாசம். அவ்வண்ணம் என்னடே கர்த்தாவே யேசு கிறிஸ்து அவ்வனடே புத்ரனே ஒருவனே. சுத்தமான சித்தத்தினொடெய கருணே கொண்டு கெற்பம் ஆயி: கன்னியாஸ்திரி மரியத்தில் பெறந்தவன்: போஞ்சியு பிலாத்து விதித்த விதிகொண்டு வெசனப்பட்டு: குருசினில் தூக்கிச் செத்தான்: குழில் வைத்து.."

Above is a passage is from the first Tamil Printed book " Thambiran Vanakkam" (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) printed in India in 1578. It is a matter of record Tamil was the first non-European Language to be printed in movable type. The credit should go to the untiring efforts of a Portuguese Jesuit Priest Fr.Anrique Anriquez (1520–1600) better known as Fr.Henrique Henriques, who spent most of his life in missionary activities among Paravars in South India. He strongly believed that books of religious doctrines should be in local languages and to this end he wrote books in Tamil. The first such book printed in Tamil Script was Thambiran Vanakkam (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) (1578), a 16-page translation of the Portuguese “Doctrina Christam”. It was followed by Kirisithiyaani Vanakkam (கிரிசித்தியானி வணக்கம்)(1579). These were works of catechism, containing the basic prayers of Catholicism. Before this ‘Cartilha’, a Tamil prayer book printed using Latin script, was printed in Lisbon by command of the King of Portugal and financed by the Paravar Christians community of Tuticorin, who also helped with scholarly assistance. The first known Tamil typeset for printing was cast in 1577 at Goa by a Spanish Jesuit Fr Juan Gonsalvez "who succeeded in making Malauar (Tamil) printing press". The first Tamil Book "Tambiranvanakkam" was printed in this Printing Press at Kollam, Malabar.
Fr Henrique Henriques is sometimes called The Father of the Tamil Press. After his death his mortal remains were buried in Our Lady of Snows Basilica in Tuticorin, India.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Thank You Brahmanyan.

It is indeed a fact that many Eruopean advances like book printing and medicine, came to India, brought by the missionaries. I live in Canada where they cannot even get a quorum for a Sunday mass. The European church is fading away leaving behind glorious edifices of stone music poems and liturgy.

Joe D Cruz has so well defined himself and his tribe - a basically spritual people of India, on a western materialistic garb superficially donned. I find it very comfortable to accept the waves of history that had struck India over the milleniums, and whether we like it or not, all of us today, are today, a product of those influences in some way or the other.

Today, unfortunately, the tamil society is even more defined by castes and latest spurt of tamil nationalism, spawned aftermath mullivaikkal, is disturbing, in its violent exclusion of aryam dravidam and dalitheeyam. folks like PMK and their cohorts in the gounder and other communities are indeed disturbed by the rise of the marginalized and I wonder about the future of tamil society. maybe the recent fracas in Madras High Court over the appointment of judges is a sign of what is to come?

the only consoling factor for me, atleast is that i will be gone before all this crystallizes. and having brought up my children as canadians, they are blissfully unaware of the casteist consequences today of manu and his 'needhi'.

thank you sir and a belated new year and pongal greetings to you and your loved ones.



Joe in Tiruchendur. You can imagine how the church viewed this

 

[kunjuppu]

without comment here, a pretty hilarious photo. to the best of my knowledge, there is no ban on the image or name of veeramani, and this is as much a clown he can be. not sure whose reputation is damaged here

 

[Iyyarooraan]

"Kootenberg" was not an Indian and sometimes it looks like they indeed valued religion upper most. But the following anecdote from Africa disproves that: " When the English came, we had the land and they had the Bible. Now we have the Bible and they have the land."

 

[கால பைரவன்]

View attachment 3320

Joe in Tiruchendur. You can imagine how the church viewed this

This does not look like thiruchendur murugan temple.

May be some other Shiva Temple!!

 

[kunjuppu]

This does not look like thiruchendur murugan temple.

May be some other Shiva Temple!!

could be... maybe vadapalani? joe is a devotee of murugan. highly unlikely to be a siva temple. remember he belongs to a seafaring community by thiruchendur?i know he was married in vadapalani temple.

you should rad his korkai. which won the sahitya academy award. but was not received well by his community or the church. infact there were physical threats against him, and you can see abuse on the youtube website. but the church appears to have made peace, by the fact that his alma mater palayamkottai st xavier's college invited him to speak, just a few months ago.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Well there seems to be Ms. K* in this forum who claims to be both an Iyengar and a Christian. Not too subtly if I may add.

Elanam seivadhu brahmanargalukku lakshanama?

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

In response to Ms. K, it is definitely a valid question. ........ It is always interesting to speculate about the actual diagnosis.

Remove caste-system, untouchability from your midst. Treat everyone equally. bring a so-called-sakkili to your house and eat with him. give him the same plate, tumbler, spoon that you use.

 

[renuka]

Elanam seivadhu brahmanargalukku lakshanama?

Dear Kuvala ji,

You should provide a translation..not everyone here knows Tamil..

Most of us do understand Tamil no doubt.

BTW this forum also has a few Non Brahmin members like me and a few others..so not everyone here is a Brahmana.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

"IN almost every hindu temple" is nt correct. I remember seeing this in Srirangam and probably Tiruvannamalai, but not anywhere else.........

Are you not aware of the issue of a foreigner-turned-ISKCONite forbidden entry into jagannath temple in puri, which was debated in NDTV and other sattellite tvs?

 

[indianassault]

Ok my knowledge is limited. But you see, NDTV only debates these things and not about vice versa( conversions) . And one more question to you, you mentioned in your post that people who convert were " had no beleif on their faith, failures, cannot face challenges" etc...So curious, did you have any or all of these qualities( I assume you too embraced Xianity , since you said you have authority)...

 

[ashwin_ash]

Remove caste-system, untouchability from your midst. Treat everyone equally. bring a so-called-sakkili to your house and eat with him. give him the same plate, tumbler, spoon that you use.

Please allow Dalit christians into your upper caste churches. I have too many christian friends who hate Dalits. Also please stop serving tea to Dalits in coconut shells, I saw it myself this year, and the tea stall was *not* run by brahmins.

 

[sarang]

The temple staff including security have permission and authority to check the credentials of devotees (?); there are also instances when non hindus masqueraded as hindus and tried to enter the temple. Whenever such incidents happen, the staff become more alert and duty conscious - like heightened security in airports and stations after a bomb blast or threat. Each case must be evaluated on its merit.

This is what the chief trustee of guruvayur temple said in a tv interview - Our temple rules permit only hindus; if a person gets a certificate from arya samaj that he is a hindu, we accept it.

Are you not aware of the issue of a foreigner-turned-ISKCONite forbidden entry into jagannath temple in puri, which was debated in NDTV and other sattellite tvs?

 

[renuka]

This is what the chief trustee of guruvayur temple said in a tv interview - Our temple rules permit only hindus; if a person gets a certificate from arya samaj that he is a hindu, we accept it.

Dear Sarang ji,

But how will they know if an Indian/NRI/PIO is a Hindu?By one look at a person how would they know who is a Hindu and who is not?

 

[sarang]

In all engineering drawings manually prepared, there was a caution note in bold letters in the header - when in doubt ask, do not scale.

When in doubt, proof is asked for. Anyway such incidents are rare and too infrequent to cause any burn, except when the media and the atheist rationalists enter the ring with clenched fists.

Dear Sarang ji,

But how will they know if an Indian/NRI/PIO is a Hindu?By one look at a person how would they know who is a Hindu and who is not?