Remove the Caste based Reservation System

[tks]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Sri Sangom Sir,



It would be difficult to dispute with this paragraph. But this point was hardly the thrust of your previous posts in this thread..

You were hammering away at the 5000 years of intellectual and economic deprivations of the so called 90% of the lower strata of the society by the so-called higher castes. And you had advanced the same to be the reason for introduction reservation in some fields.

Many of your contentions are on shaky foundation. But you seem to be convinced of their soundness. My post is just to give my point of view for the readers for what they are worth.

1. That 5000 years of subordination is a supreme exaggeration. The timeline of vedic civilization starts from around 1500 BC, and in Rg veda there is hardly any mention of caste, save for puruSa-sUktam which being a later interpolation, has been argued for by you.

2. The traces of caste distinctions appear in yajurveda which has been approximately dated to 1000 BC.

3. The brahminism including its caste segregation was given a death knell by the rise of Buddhism in 500 BC and Buddhism being adopted as a state religion from the period of AsokA.

4. The revival of hinduism is seen from somewhere around 500 AD.

So this 5000 years of continuous caste based segregation lacks evidence.

5. The Government of India, at least on the face of it, doesnt accept your theory that 90% of the population being permanently subjugated by higher castes. The GOI provided for only 15% reservation to scheduled castes and 7.5% for scheduled tribes and this percentage was arrived at by taking into account the proportion of population of these castes and tribes in the whole population of the country.

6. The Government of India also does not subscribe to your theory that reservations by themselves will bring out the "Diamonds in the sky" belonging to the lower strata of the society. In fact, the following Centres/Institutes of Higher Learning is free of any Reservation themes:

Institutions kept out of the purview of reservation

The following institutions have been kept out of the purview of Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Act, 2006:,[SUP][53][/SUP][SUP][54][/SUP]

1. Homi Bhabha National Institute, Mumbai and its ten constituent units, namely:
   1. Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay
   2. Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam
   3. Raja Ramanna Centre for Advanced Technology, Indore
   4. Institute for Plasma Research, Gandhinagar
   5. Variable Energy Cyclotron Centre, Kolkata
   6. Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics, Kolkata;
   7. Institute of Physics, Bhubaneshwar
   8. Institute of Mathematical Sciences, Chennai
   9. Harish-Chandra Research Institute, Allahabad
   10. Tata Memorial Centre, Mumbai
2. Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
3. North Eastern Indira Gandhi Regional Institute of Health and Medical Sciences, Shillong
4. Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad
5. Space Physics Laboratory, Thiruvananthapuram
6. Indian Institute of Remote Sensing, Dehradun
7. Shri Mata Vaishno Devi University, Katra

[unquote]

7. The issue of reservation is in fact older than the independence itself and wikipedia gives Jyotiba Phule demanding reservations for backward classes way back in 1882 and Chatrapati Sahu Maharaj of Maratha dynasty implementing such scheme way back in 1901.

8. While talking about reservations, you conveniently club non-forward class/caste along with dalits etc. While you miss no chance to point out Krishna as an ordinary petty king and not Lord Sri Krishna as many Hindus believe, you have no qualms in supporting the reservations enjoyed by the Yadu dynasty. Why should a king, a ruler, and his dynastic members need a reservation as a level playing field in free India is hard to comprehend.

9. Nalanda and Taxila being the centres of Higher learning way back in 5th century BC have been reported by many and these learning institutes of higher learning or Universities had many foreign students and local students. One does not find any mention of higher class, lower class, indigenous or foreign students etc therein.

10. The very fact that some academic institutions are left out of this reservation theme only goes to show that the intention of the government is that "largesse" of the government should be shared by the whole population in equal measure and does not have the high ideals of correcting the 5000 year old syndrome.

11. It was hard to miss your glee in noting the absence of Sri Kunjuppu who would recount tales and tales of how corrupt brahmin officials were, as if their mere existence in the past in itself should disentitle brahmins in voicing their views of their being denied (whether such a view is just or unjust) in this forum. It is another matter that Sri Kunjuppa became scarce in this forum after Ozone, another member (now not participating) put some hard questions to Sri kunjuppu and Kunjuppu has found no means to address it inspite of lapse of 4 years.

12. Reservation as a theme will survive only as long as shortage and affordability exist. We do not find any one *cribbing* about admission to primary schools or not having landline telephone connections (as in the not so distant past). The main reason is that people can find them or their substitutes in affordable range. The State had monopolized education and the strings have loosened only in the past decade and it is just a matter of time before this reservation in admission noise will subside at least in higher education. Now facilities are available and people will find means to make it affordable.

13. I would think you are out of sync with reality to be harbouring the notion that for 100s of years (if not for 5000 years) that Reservations are here to stay as a permanent fixture.

Sri Narayanan - Excellent analysis and well researched post!
While I am not a history buff, it is nice to read well expressed post.

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom Sir,



It would be difficult to dispute with this paragraph. But this point was hardly the thrust of your previous posts in this thread..

You were hammering away at the 5000 years of intellectual and economic deprivations of the so called 90% of the lower strata of the society by the so-called higher castes. And you had advanced the same to be the reason for introduction reservation in some fields.

Sri Narayanan,

If my figure of 5000 years was incorrect, what is the correct figure, according to you? Or, do you hold that because "Chatrapati Sahu Maharaj of Maratha dynasty implementing such scheme way back in 1901.", there never was any discrimination against any castes in any matter in the Indian sub-continent throughout known history?

Many of your contentions are on shaky foundation. But you seem to be convinced of their soundness. My post is just to give my point of view for the readers for what they are worth.

1. That 5000 years of subordination is a supreme exaggeration. The timeline of vedic civilization starts from around 1500 BC, and in Rg veda there is hardly any mention of caste, save for puruSa-sUktam which being a later interpolation, has been argued for by you.

2. The traces of caste distinctions appear in yajurveda which has been approximately dated to 1000 BC.

3. The brahminism including its caste segregation was given a death knell by the rise of Buddhism in 500 BC and Buddhism being adopted as a state religion from the period of AsokA.

4. The revival of hinduism is seen from somewhere around 500 AD.

So this 5000 years of continuous caste based segregation lacks evidence.

You have not produced any evidence to any of the four "pronouncements" given above, but you demand evidence from my side! That is unfair discussion, according to me. How do you say that Purusha sooktam is a later interpolation in the rig-veda? Even if this be true, on what basis do you conclude that the Rigvedic society did not have any caste divisions?
What evidence is there to prove that under Ashoka and his successors, "brahminism" had completely vanished from the Mauryan empire at least, if not from the whole of the sub-continent? If so, how did it "revive"?

Hence I will submit that your rebuttal is hollow until the above points are satisfactorily explained.

5. The Government of India, at least on the face of it, doesnt accept your theory that 90% of the population being permanently subjugated by higher castes. The GOI provided for only 15% reservation to scheduled castes and 7.5% for scheduled tribes and this percentage was arrived at by taking into account the proportion of population of these castes and tribes in the whole population of the country.

It is a moot point whether GOI accepted my theory of 90% of the people being subjugated by the higher class; nor did I talk about "subjugation". I was talking about ostracization only. Irrespective of what GOI accepts or not (you seem to know more about such high-level thinkings!) they have given the reservation benefit to 49.5% of the total posts. This may be because of the legal limit, then perceived, of reserving 50% or more as unconstitutional, or it might even have been due to the pressures exerted by the higher castes on the government and the Constituent Assembly itself.

Even the 69% reservations of TN has been included in the ninth schedule and hence is beyond the courts.

6. The Government of India also does not subscribe to your theory that reservations by themselves will bring out the "Diamonds in the sky" belonging to the lower strata of the society. In fact, the following Centres/Institutes of Higher Learning is free of any Reservation themes:

Institutions kept out of the purview of reservation

The following institutions have been kept out of the purview of Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Act, 2006:,[SUP][53][/SUP][SUP][54][/SUP]

1. Homi Bhabha National Institute, Mumbai and its ten constituent units, namely:
   1. Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay
   2. Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam
   3. Raja Ramanna Centre for Advanced Technology, Indore
   4. Institute for Plasma Research, Gandhinagar
   5. Variable Energy Cyclotron Centre, Kolkata
   6. Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics, Kolkata;
   7. Institute of Physics, Bhubaneshwar
   8. Institute of Mathematical Sciences, Chennai
   9. Harish-Chandra Research Institute, Allahabad
   10. Tata Memorial Centre, Mumbai
2. Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai
3. North Eastern Indira Gandhi Regional Institute of Health and Medical Sciences, Shillong
4. Physical Research Laboratory, Ahmedabad
5. Space Physics Laboratory, Thiruvananthapuram
6. Indian Institute of Remote Sensing, Dehradun
7. Shri Mata Vaishno Devi University, Katra

[unquote]

What I wrote was this:—

What I said was that during the 5000 or so years when the high castes were enjoying all the benefits, this country did not really record any progress and was mired in the caste-based system and nothing else. Foreigners with even one cannon could conquer one small native state and start looting that. The higher castes were just mute witnesses because they had absolutely no ideas beyond what they had learned by rote! We are not at all in a worse position now with the reservation system and so there is no point in breast beating as though, if the high caste people are reinstalled with all their former privileges, India will shine "like a diamond in the Space"!
(http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=26859&p=313947#post313947)

It should be clear now that I did not refer to any "Diamonds in the sky" from the reserved categories, but was only pointing out that India will not shine like a "Diamond in the sky" from appointing the unreserved categories to key posts.
The Government itself calls the reservation as Affirmative Action.

"The primary stated objective of the Indian reservation system is to increase the opportunities for enhanced social and educational status of the underprivileged communities and thus uplift their lifestyle to have their place in the mainstream of Indian society. The reservation system exists to provide opportunities for the members of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribess to increase their political representation in the State Legislatures, the Executive Organ of the Union (Centre) and States, the labour force, schools, colleges, and other public institutions.

The Constitution of India states in article 16(4): "Nothing in [article 16] or in clause (2) of article 29 shall prevent the State from making any special provision for the advancement of any socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes." Article 46 of the Constitution states that "The State shall promote with special care the educational and economic interests of the weaker sections of the people, and, in particular, of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, and shall protect them from social injustice and all forms of exploitation."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India#Background_of_caste_based_reservation)

7. The issue of reservation is in fact older than the independence itself and wikipedia gives Jyotiba Phule demanding reservations for backward classes way back in 1882 and Chatrapati Sahu Maharaj of Maratha dynasty implementing such scheme way back in 1901.

But Kolhapur of Sahu Maharaj was not India! Hence, for most of India it was not applicablle, nor have you given how this order of Sahu Maharaj was implemented in actual practice!

8. While talking about reservations, you conveniently club non-forward class/caste along with dalits etc. While you miss no chance to point out Krishna as an ordinary petty king and not Lord Sri Krishna as many Hindus believe, you have no qualms in supporting the reservations enjoyed by the Yadu dynasty. Why should a king, a ruler, and his dynastic members need a reservation as a level playing field in free India is hard to comprehend.

Who are all in the Yadu "dynasty" today? Can you list out, with their unbroken lineage from Krishna? Did not Krishna belong to Nanda vamsa? Was he a Yadava, really? If so, what have your "yadu dynasty" to do with Krishna?

9. Nalanda and Taxila being the centres of Higher learning way back in 5th century BC have been reported by many and these learning institutes of higher learning or Universities had many foreign students and local students. One does not find any mention of higher class, lower class, indigenous or foreign students etc therein.

10. The very fact that some academic institutions are left out of this reservation theme only goes to show that the intention of the government is that "largesse" of the government should be shared by the whole population in equal measure and does not have the high ideals of correcting the 5000 year old syndrome.

Nalanda and Taxila, though grouped as a pair in common talk are separated by about 1000 years, Taxila being older. Nalanda was a Buddhist institution and, as such, it would have admitted all the three higher castes; whether Sudras got education there, I don't know.

Taxila is famous due to Chanakya and Charaka. AFAIK it was also a hindu & buddhist educational institution. And this shows that even when Buddhism was flourishing, Hinduism (brahminism) was not exterminated. Kumarila Bhatta studying buddhism in Nalanda also disproves your assumption.

The exemption of some institutions does not show that the "largesse" of the Government in the form of reservations, should be shared by the whole population. It only shows the intention of the government to label some institutions as institutions of excellence (I feel this was in response to the oft-repeated claim of excellence being available only in the forward castes, and not among the reserved sections.) which have been exempted from the purview of the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Act, 2006. What great achievements these august institutions have achieved is a big zero!

11. It was hard to miss your glee in noting the absence of Sri Kunjuppu who would recount tales and tales of how corrupt brahmin officials were, as if their mere existence in the past in itself should disentitle brahmins in voicing their views of their being denied (whether such a view is just or unjust) in this forum. It is another matter that Sri Kunjuppa became scarce in this forum after Ozone, another member (now not participating) put some hard questions to Sri kunjuppu and Kunjuppu has found no means to address it inspite of lapse of 4 years.

The discussions between ozone and kunjuppu are not germane to our discussions here. I won't badmouth a person if I am unable to counter some point made by him. Kunjuppu had authoritative facts about corruption among brahmin officials. I too have heard many instances, but most of them are by word of mouth. But recently one thing came out in newspaper. When the Secretariat for the Trvancore government was to be built, the then Dewan, Sir T. Madhava Rao, managed to move the powers that be and got his own lands selected. The land was sold at exorbitant prices (called "ponnum vila" in Malayalam) and the beneficiary was the Dewan!

12. Reservation as a theme will survive only as long as shortage and affordability exist. We do not find any one *cribbing* about admission to primary schools or not having landline telephone connections (as in the not so distant past). The main reason is that people can find them or their substitutes in affordable range. The State had monopolized education and the strings have loosened only in the past decade and it is just a matter of time before this reservation in admission noise will subside at least in higher education. Now facilities are available and people will find means to make it affordable.

So you agree that there is cribbing about admission to technical courses, good! Do you mean to say therefore that the presently existing *cribbing* will go away soon?

13. I would think you are out of sync with reality to be harbouring the notion that for 100s of years (if not for 5000 years) that Reservations are here to stay as a permanent fixture.

I am sure, given the political and social realities as they now are, the system of reservations will continue for at least the next 100 years, if not more. Why don't you see that this system which was intended to last for 10 years, as per the original constitution, has got enlarged and is gaining strength even after 65 years?

 

[sangom]

If anything it is the above post which is hilarious. There is a whole forum dedicated to discuss political (current) affairs and the member himself being an active participant. So all along while discussing such matters it didn't dawn upon him that the brahmins are a super minority who could not exert any influence on any of the matters discussed there but the moment one talks about reservation system all sorts of reasons ranging from inconsequential to inconscientious being given to shut people up which displays high intolerance. This is the truth; merely returning the accusation as you did does not prove anything.

Discussions here including those on reservations are quadrant4 activities as often said by tks, at least for me, if not for you. The minority status of brahmins had to be emphasized (not that it was not known) only in the context of one particular post while responding to that. If you feel my arguments cause some people to shut up, then it is an admission that my arguments are valid. Such convoluted arguments are not hilarious, but typical brahmin tactics, I feel.

 

[nkshivaa]

It should be removed from the system. This is going to hinder the next generation

 

[கால பைரவன்]

If you feel my arguments cause some people to shut up, then it is an admission that my arguments are valid. Such convoluted arguments are not hilarious, but typical brahmin tactics, I feel.

The strength of an argument can silence people but it is not logical to think that the contrary is always true. Sometimes people keep away because of casteist remarks such as "typical brahmin tactics" etc and constant put downs. It goes to show that a dog's tail cannot be straightened.

 

[sridhar subba rao]

true, we need to support reservation based on economy or even region as backward region people may not be exposed to modern amenities, which aid studies. otherwise the entire society structure will be spoilt with hatred of one caste against other.

 

[tks]

The strength of an argument can silence people but it is not logical to think that the contrary is always true. Sometimes people keep away because of casteist remarks such as "typical brahmin tactics" etc and constant put downs. It goes to show that a dog's tail cannot be straightened.

A general observation in this context about dividing people into groups, or championing a cause, or claim of high character etc
It may or may not apply to this conversation which the reader can decide. I have purposefully left out stating my position about anyone here.

If a company brags about quality *exclusively*, it probably does not have it. An airline will never advertise that its planes are safe and that its pilots are well trained. Such an advertisement would imply the opposite.

There are people who will protest too much about racism and sexism in the world. In my limited observation of people I have come across, those are the true racists and sexists. Someone may claim I am above all this caste stuff, it means they can only divide people in their head and are hard core castists.

During President Clinton scandal those that wanted to impeach him for 'immoral' acts turned out to be the most immoral in their own life.

All tough talking Republicans against Gay rights and all evangelical preachers against Gay people themselves turned out to be gay.

The point is that the real castists and racists are easily identified by how often and how much they protest.

Food for thought

 

[jaiganesh.vazhkudai]

I am for reservation - Would love to see the constitution and schedule updated to count for some ground realities.
The oppression and humiliation layer cake is the weirdest and most diverse in the world and it needs really a scientific
approach to justly apportion the benefits of affirmative action and effectively track the upward mobilization of the oppressed.
Having a 'free' and 'unmonitored' implementation has indeed resulted in some strange cases where the oppressed have become oppressors in
certain pockets..However to complain that the 'country has gone to drains because of this' is simply juvenile.

 

[srigou]

Brahmins should not bother about the reservation system. The DNA of a Brahmin works at all times and so does the DNA of others. Reservation system is a blessing in disguise as those who benefit by the reservation system cannot easily compete in an open system. Look at those birds, animals and plants who are supposed to be less capable than a human being. Who guarantees anything for them? Don't they survive and survive with dignity unmindful of the reservation provided by the human being for himself or herself? A human being is the most stupid creation of nature who needs reservation, constitution, etc etc. A Brahmin does not need all these things. He has survived, surviving, and will survive through any hostile situation. See the example of Vasishta, Vishwamitra and other rishis who have time and again withstood the onslaught of demons and more hostile situations. A Brahmin is singly the most potent and powerful person in this universe but will not be united. Two powerful entities will never be united as the individual power will clash. Hence writing a letter to the Prime Minister, who is one of the weakest persons to handle the issue of reservation due to the vote bank to which reservation is linked, is meaningless and a futile effort. Remember, quality will always win. Reservation cannot succeed and is an aberration. Prime Minister has to satisfy a number voters who have the votes linked to reservation. If reservation votes are going to matter because of the large number and it is going to ensure that a large number of people facilitated by reservation are going to rule India, it is only a dream. If numbers are going to be a strength, then ants must have been the most powerful beings in history, ruling humanity. That is not going to happen. Similarly reservation will not work. Allow that concept to vanish by itself. No need to write a letter.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

12. We do not find any one *cribbing* about admission to primary schools....and it is just a matter of time before this reservation in admission noise will subside at least in higher education. Now facilities are available and people will find means to make it affordable.

Just want to point out that in fact the reverse is happening; the ill-conceived and outright communal RTE law is actually reducing access to primary education and it won't be a surprise if the country sees more such agitations even for the matter of securing admission to primary schools.

There is material available in the web. Please refer, if interested, to:

http://nisaindia.org/data-on-school-closures

http://swarajyamag.com/economy/save-our-schools-from-the-rte-monster/

 

[yesmohan]

We are very excellent in ventilating our feelings anonymously in the exclusive forum. Same points are emphasised in different ways.

"Patels" shows the way. The sub divisions if any in "Patels", not visible to the third party.

When the Brahmins shedding away the inter-division & intra-division complexes,unite as a whole,come to the road to fight for the community?

Brahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within the four walls?

 

[srigou]

Srigou

"This is a meaningless argument. A Brahmin will always exist as anyone whohas knowledge (vedas) cannot be destroyed. We have complexities and we have theknowledge to deal with that. We are not primitive people like others. To sayBrahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within four walls islaughable. You can satisfy yourself with this wishful thinking. Rememberknowledge is supreme; indeed more supreme than anything including the so calledGod".

-------------

We are very excellent in ventilating our feelings anonymously in the exclusive forum. Same points are emphasised in different ways.

"Patels" shows the way. The sub divisions if any in "Patels", not visible to the third party.

When the Brahmins shedding away the inter-division & intra-division complexes,unite as a whole,come to the road to fight for the community?

Brahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within the four walls?

 

[rishikesan]

All Readers, Lots of points expressing views/ counters had been done by the luminaries including most short-sighted third rate politicians for the last few decades. V.P. singh takes the credit for IMPOSING 27 %reservation. India started with Reservation for S.Ts and SCs only. No one grudged then. Clamouring started with the implementation of 27 % When the case was fought in the Courts all dravidian parties never protested. Congress , always keep MUM ?
One caste , one after the other went into competition to get Max % for them & Ultimately OBC term was invented & flood gates OPENED All , I mean All Castes except BRAHMINS Made Hay & net result is Max. % has been swallowed
Meanwhile S. C. put the Max as 50% years back The Tragedy is that in T.N every year 2 separate lists are made to accomodate Fcs, Which does not really help our Children in 12th .
Pity , adding injury to Wound, Problem resting in S.C gathering Dust
All of you are really Shrewd. Can the Really interested stalwarts including Legal experts start preparing a comprehensive Data already available & make a realistic DEMAND to ensure ;-

1) Exclude the Cremy from OBC because they have reached the pinnacle & any other points to the SC as per current out-look of Intelligentia, FILE a Writ Immediately.

2)Open the Topic of Max Reservation fixed as 50% & a Bench to be constituted for comprehensive out-come

3) This the Best time, because Patels have taken ferocious lead & they have full unity to fight

They are Fed up with Business in India as well as in U.S. They want High-end Jobs In I>T., which we, Tamils grab .




We, if capable, can Fire on their shoulders ( including Mr. MODI who is bound to ensure Victory by unity. Getting help from NRI brahmins.

Please take this ahead & may God help Tamil Brahmins ?

Rishikesan ( A. Srinivasan )
3

 

[Brahmanyan]

Though I do not approve the agitational approach,Shri Hardik Patel, the young leader of Patidars has raised some pertinent questions, on the present reservation system, that need to be answered. The Government and the Political leaders of all hues should sit and take fresh look into the present system of reservation and find an acceptable solution. Other wise there is a big queue like Gujjars and Jats standing behind Patels, with more demands.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[ashwin_ash]

Good to be back after a hiatus,although I feel Praveen must lift the ban on me.

Will be good if he displays magnanimity, after all people do change, esp. if they have been in life-altering car accidents (like I was in..am now deeply introspective and know not to take anything for granted).

If I offended anyone earlier, sorry. Thanks.

 

[srigou]

Who is Hardik Patel and what leadership you have seen in him? He appears to be a misnomer and is harping on some silly issue. Reservation policy is losing steam. Brahmins are doing extremely well in all spheres without any reservation across the world. Merit will always win. Reservation will not. Be aware Hardik patel is raising utterly nonsensical questions which will be laughed at if an animal is having the ability to laugh.

 

[yesmohan]

Srigou

"This is a meaningless argument. A Brahmin will always exist as anyone whohas knowledge (vedas) cannot be destroyed. We have complexities and we have theknowledge to deal with that. We are not primitive people like others. To sayBrahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within four walls islaughable. You can satisfy yourself with this wishful thinking. Rememberknowledge is supreme; indeed more supreme than anything including the so calledGod".
-------------

These kinds of unfortunate utterances of self pride, make Brahmins permanently alienate from other castes.
Even if we fight together no 'others" will support /sympathise .
Need of the hour is not taking pride of past glory. What we could do at least the best to make a move to register our claim.

 

[a-TB]

Srigou

"This is a meaningless argument. A Brahmin will always exist as anyone whohas knowledge (vedas) cannot be destroyed. We have complexities and we have theknowledge to deal with that. We are not primitive people like others. To sayBrahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within four walls islaughable. You can satisfy yourself with this wishful thinking. Rememberknowledge is supreme; indeed more supreme than anything including the so calledGod".

-------------

You write like a veteran, not a newbie!

 

[krish44]

Good to be back after a hiatus,although I feel Praveen must lift the ban on me.

Will be good if he displays magnanimity, after all people do change, esp. if they have been in life-altering car accidents (like I was in..am now deeply introspective and know not to take anything for granted).

If I offended anyone earlier, sorry. Thanks.

Hello ashwin.

Am glad to know you have recovered from car accident.

best wishes

 

[sangom]

Srigou

"This is a meaningless argument. A Brahmin will always exist as anyone whohas knowledge (vedas) cannot be destroyed. We have complexities and we have theknowledge to deal with that. We are not primitive people like others. To sayBrahmins will end their life out of exhaustion by shouting within four walls islaughable. You can satisfy yourself with this wishful thinking. Rememberknowledge is supreme; indeed more supreme than anything including the so calledGod".

-------------

It now seems perfectly plausible to me that many brahmins of yore must have thought exactly on these lines and were annihilated by invaders!

Many tabras who are at best quasi brahmins claim that since they know Veda, they are invincible; for added effect, some may even drop in names like "apratiratha sUktam"! What this person may be knowing will be just purushasUktam, rudram & chamakam and a few other sUktams which almost all tabras might be knowing to recite, sans the meanings.

Nowhere is it said that knowledge is more supreme than even the so called God.

This is a fine example of very empty chest thumping!

 

[auh]

Good to be back after a hiatus,although I feel Praveen must lift the ban on me.

Will be good if he displays magnanimity, after all people do change, esp. if they have been in life-altering car accidents (like I was in..am now deeply introspective and know not to take anything for granted).

If I offended anyone earlier, sorry. Thanks.

Glad about your recovery. Hope you have a nice time around here...

 

[vgane]

Good to be back after a hiatus,although I feel Praveen must lift the ban on me.

Will be good if he displays magnanimity, after all people do change, esp. if they have been in life-altering car accidents (like I was in..am now deeply introspective and know not to take anything for granted).

If I offended anyone earlier, sorry. Thanks.

Welcome Ashwin! Good to know that you have recovered from the accident! As Praveen does not read all posts suggest you send him a Private Message too!

 

[kansjee]

it has to beat most income based not caste based.

 

[vgane]

The Patel agitation is not to create any additional reservations but to remove caste based reservations!

Welcome this!

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-based-quota-systems/articleshow/48725222.cms

 

[zebra16]

Sri Sangom Sir,

Sri Narayanan,


You have not produced any evidence to any of the four "pronouncements" given above, but you demand evidence from my side! That is unfair discussion, according to me. How do you say that Purusha sooktam is a later interpolation in the rig-veda? Even if this be true, on what basis do you conclude that the Rigvedic society did not have any caste divisions?

I have to break my reply in parts to ensure that the reply does not become excessively lengthy.

It is not that my rebuttal is hollow, but your claim of 5000 years of enjoyment of benefits by higher castes which is hollow and simply a gigantic exaggeration.

What is the basis for your claim? If the current year is 2015 AD on which evidence you claim that from 2985 BC exploitation of the lower strata started? Will you please give some evidence?

Now about class divisions and puruSa Suktam and its interpolation. I suggest you read Dr. B R Ambedkar's book "Who are the Sudras", if you have not done so.

(i) The varNa "Shudra" does not appear even once in Rig Veda, apart from mention in puruSa sUktam.

(ii) If puruSa sUktam is indeed a part of the original part of Rg Veda, then prajApathi definitely stopped creating Shudras from his feet from the yajurveda days because mantra 11.4.11.11 of SatapAtha Brahmanam of Sukla Yajurveda says from BhuH he created brAmhaNas, from BhuvaH he created kshatriyas and from suvaH the vaisyas. Therefore, no creation of the fourth varNa. So how come the fourth varNa members are there even when prajApathi stopped creating them?

(iii) How come the mantra-dhrashTa of Rg. 9.112.3 of Soma pavamana says, that he is a poet, his father is a physician and his mother is a corn grinder if the class/caste segregration was so rigid?

(iv) How come the description of six rutus mentioned in taittiriya aranka from mantra 1.12 to 1.17, get reduced just to bland three in the puruSa sUktam if the puruSa sUktam was composed in the Gandhar region of Afganistan/Balochistan area?

(v) Why would SatapAtha BrAhmaNam give the mode of addressing brAhmaNa, kshatriya, vaisya and Sudra yajamanan (yes Sudra yajamanan - sacrificer) in the yajna vedi-s if they (the shudras) were not at all permitted in the yajna vedis and molten lead was poured into their ears for hearing the vedas? (Please refer to SatapAtha brAhmaNam 1.1.4.12).

All these go to prove that there was not even a separate class of varNa Shudra in Rg vedic period and it started to make its nascent growth in yajur vedic period.

So your saying that 5000 years of exploitation (including the period even before Rg veda) without a shred of evidence is a total exaggeration.