Reservation for Brahmins

[sangom]

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Dear K, thank you for the "sangom"isc thorough reply, with a touch of humor.

When I look around from my little vantage point here in the middle of the bible belt of USA, I see Jews are upfront in protecting the rights of minorities. Jews were represented in significantly large proportion in the civil-rights struggle. When a group in upstate NY had some trouble building a Hindu temple I am familiar with, it was Jewish neighbors who stood by the Hindus. Heck, Jews are quite strong even in the opposition to Israeli hegemony and violence.

Thanks Kunjuppu, I appreciate you taking my request seriously,

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

My thanks, once again, for your "sangomisc" usage. It really makes me proud.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Such an exhaustive write-up, that too in an hour! You are a veritable storehouse of knowledge!

You were very very correct when you said this TB-Jew identification is a recent phenomenon. Jews were persecuted, rather annihilated; TBs have lost their old glory and have to slog it out upon their own merit (of course most TBs are faring well in this) but the loss of the old glory and the advances coming to others create an anxiety in the minds of TBs. They also feel threatened by future and this takes the mind to the Jew-TB comparison and identification. Jews were threatened, they have won; we are being threatened now, we will win, that is the link IMO. Anyway it is an optimistic idea.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sangom,

I am curious about threats to our community.

What threats? You and I agree, that quotas in government colleges & jobs in tamil nadu & kerala is not a threat. It is more a blessing in disguise and has forced us to look for eventual greener pastures.

Dwindling population? This is a phenomenon of all rich communities. There are less than 70,000 parsis in india now. Sad. But very rich.

Don’t know our prayers? This is not a threat. We discarded old ones and learn new ones – C, C+, C-, H1B and what not

Food habits? Even though all ingredients are available and in plenty, we seek to eat out rather than cook at home. This is job creation. Not a threat.

Music? I think the reactionary element of Carnatic music is still alive and well, judging by the still few tamil songs sung in the concerts

Exclusivity? Have you seen the eager buyers to ‘brahmins only’ housing colonies. It is never advertised thus, but only through word of mouth. Even in Bombay I hear 

Global village? Truly ours own. How many passports of countries other than india in any average family?

Intermarriage? Yes in every western born tamil Brahmin. I agree here we are threatened. But in a very happy way. Other community boys or girls appear to make our children happier than our own kind. Since it is equally applicable to both sexes, I think we are uniform in enlightening the minds of our boys and girls.

As suraju says, jai hind 

 

[Nara]

Which wolf won?

....Yes ofcourse TTD opened its veda patshalas to NBs and there are NBs studying there: Vedic School opens doors to Dalits, non-Brahmins In Maharashtra too, Namboodiris are running a veda patshala for NBs. Why tehre are female NBs also becoming priests: Indian City Opens Doorway to Female Hindu Priests | Womens eNews

Dear Happy,

I was watching lecture by Bill Moyers, who worked in the Carter White House and is a very well known host of a TV show in the U.S. He narrated a story he said he heard a long time growing up in Oklahoma. This story may have some relevance in the context of what we are discussing. This is a little preachy, so let me state clearly, this sermon applies to me as much or more than anyone else.

A native American Cherokee tribal elder told his grandson about the battle the old man was waging within himself. It is a battle between two wolves. One is an evil wolf, full of anger, envy, sorrow, greed, self-pity, guilt, resentment, lies, false-pride, superiority and ego. The other wolf is a good one, full of joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

The boy thought about this for a few minutes and then asked his grandfather which wolf won? The grandfather replied, "The one I feed."

Once again, lest this is misunderstood, this applies more to me than to anyone else.

Thank you, Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Why history repeats?with vengeance? Some of us are eager history enthusiasts and have learned the lesson from our history that Manu was the author and cause for all these caste conflicts of the day. Now having learned it we are rewriting the same history with replacing Manu with Mandal and feel comfortable!

Add few more to your achievements list of TB They have a few noble winners. Grand Masters Grammy musicians and violinist etc Jamburay2:

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

"It is more a blessing in disguise and has forced us to look for eventual greener pastures."

This is Exodus of TB . Jambu

 

[sangom]

Dear Happy,

I was watching lecture by Bill Moyers, who worked in the Carter White House and is a very well known host of a TV show in the U.S. He narrated a story he said he heard a long time growing up in Oklahoma. This story may have some relevance in the context of what we are discussing. This is a little preachy, so let me state clearly, this sermon applies to me as much or more than anyone else.

A native American Cherokee tribal elder told his grandson about the battle the old man was waging within himself. It is a battle between two wolves. One is an evil wolf, full of anger, envy, sorrow, greed, self-pity, guilt, resentment, lies, false-pride, superiority and ego. The other wolf is a good one, full of joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

The boy thought about this for a few minutes and then asked his grandfather which wolf won? The grandfather replied, "The one I feed."

Once again, lest this is misunderstood, this applies more to me than to anyone else.

Thank you, Cheers!

Dear Nara,

This simple story contains perhaps more wisdom and philosophy than many scriptures. We should really respect that unknown Cherookee elder as a great Guru. At least, I will.

sankar

 

[sangom]

Sangom,

I am curious about threats to our community.

What threats? You and I agree, that quotas in government colleges & jobs in tamil nadu & kerala is not a threat. It is more a blessing in disguise and has forced us to look for eventual greener pastures.

Dwindling population? This is a phenomenon of all rich communities. There are less than 70,000 parsis in india now. Sad. But very rich.

Don’t know our prayers? This is not a threat. We discarded old ones and learn new ones – C, C+, C-, H1B and what not

Food habits? Even though all ingredients are available and in plenty, we seek to eat out rather than cook at home. This is job creation. Not a threat.

Music? I think the reactionary element of Carnatic music is still alive and well, judging by the still few tamil songs sung in the concerts

Exclusivity? Have you seen the eager buyers to ‘brahmins only’ housing colonies. It is never advertised thus, but only through word of mouth. Even in Bombay I hear 

Global village? Truly ours own. How many passports of countries other than india in any average family?

Intermarriage? Yes in every western born tamil Brahmin. I agree here we are threatened. But in a very happy way. Other community boys or girls appear to make our children happier than our own kind. Since it is equally applicable to both sexes, I think we are uniform in enlightening the minds of our boys and girls.

As suraju says, jai hind 

Dear Kunjuppu,

Just to facilitate easy reference, I am reproducing the relevant extract of my earlier post:
"TBs have lost their old glory and have to slog it out upon their own merit (of course most TBs are faring well in this) but the loss of the old glory and the advances coming to others create an anxiety in the minds of TBs. They also feel threatened by future and this takes the mind to the Jew-TB comparison and identification. Jews were threatened, they have won; we are being threatened now, we will win, that is the link IMO. Anyway it is an optimistic idea."

My conclusion about threat is based on,1) the impression gathered from conversations with other TBs here in TVM (who are, in fact, peripheral TBs and not the true TBs) and, 2) the general tone of many posts in this forum itself. You might have read, perhaps, about TBs living in fear in TN, expressed more than once in this forum. As for the local feedback, I feeel the TBs are in a state of mind where they want "to have the cake and also eat it". When faced with economic downturn starting with WW II, the rationing, shortages, etc., introduced in the wake of it, and continuing till Independence and the land reforms, they were forced to quit their age old ways of living, take up various kinds of jobs (including "sudravritti") and earn their livelihood. Now, after nearly two generations, with significant economic upliftment of the people in general and TBs in particular, they now feel that the grandeaur that was there for Brahmins as a community should be regained. Obviously there are lots of difficulties in achieving this. While in Kerala, no one will any more accept that a brahmin has some inherent greatness, but leave us in peace, in T. Nadu, it looks to me (I have had no first hand experience of TN for a long time now) that even the innocent brahmin may not be left in peace and may be harrased just for being a brahmanan. Even if it is not so, he has lost the pre-eminence in society which he once enjoyed and that cannot be regained now. Some other castes are going up the ladder of power and social recognition due to various reasons, one of which is the reservations - and its proper and improper (mis-)use.

All these factors create an angst in the minds of those who feel for the continuance of the TB community with its culture, customs and beliefs, ways of living, etc., intact as it was in its heyday. This is what I referred to as "we are being threatened now". Hope it is clear now.

 

[kunjuppu]

thanks sangom.

i understand your logic now. please if i may clarify a couple of your points, from what i know. and it may be completely wrong.

- harassment of brahmins in tamil nadu: personally, i grew up among christians, and my best friend was a hindu nadar. i cannot claim any harassment. having said that, maybe in isolated rural areas there are incidents, but as nara said, it is nothing of the nature which dalits are still being subjected to.

no double tumbler for us. no need to remove slippers when we enter the village. by and larege, i believe, we are left alone. ofcourse, somebody can always point out exceptions. that is why, i am emphasizing, the 'by and large'.

i also feel, that sudden transformation to wealth can be unsettling. while we still may be having remnants in our psyche, about the beauty of simplicity, we appear not to have the willpower to resist the pleasures of today. maybe this dichotomy is causing angst and guilt. but overall, we appear to ride the guild pretty well, and enjoy life for what it is worth. i mean the hedonistic aspect

political power, we briefly tasted this honey, in the immediate post war years. but instead of nurturing it, upholding the trust of the majority and swaying to the winds of popular wishes, we instead opted to impose our stick of brahminical code.

i think, the above, was mostly out of arrogance, 'ie the brahmin knew what was good for the community'. maybe this was done in good faith, but in politics what is needed is raja thanthiram. our TB politicians failed to read their chanakya. otherwise, they would not have even suggested the concept of kula thozhil.

such is our ignorance of how politics is played. those are deep waters, and we as a community do not know how to swim in them. that is what i think.

sangom, there is no threat to TBs except their own fears and phantoms. each phantom builds a bigger fear and while enjoying the fruits of today's labour, some of us in this group, enjoy the self pitying that comes out of expounding imagined threats and violence against us. take this with a pinch of salt.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Just to facilitate easy reference, I am reproducing the relevant extract of my earlier post:
"TBs have lost their old glory and have to slog it out upon their own merit (of course most TBs are faring well in this) but the loss of the old glory and the advances coming to others create an anxiety in the minds of TBs. They also feel threatened by future and this takes the mind to the Jew-TB comparison and identification. Jews were threatened, they have won; we are being threatened now, we will win, that is the link IMO. Anyway it is an optimistic idea."

My conclusion about threat is based on,1) the impression gathered from conversations with other TBs here in TVM (who are, in fact, peripheral TBs and not the true TBs) and, 2) the general tone of many posts in this forum itself. You might have read, perhaps, about TBs living in fear in TN, expressed more than once in this forum. As for the local feedback, I feeel the TBs are in a state of mind where they want "to have the cake and also eat it". When faced with economic downturn starting with WW II, the rationing, shortages, etc., introduced in the wake of it, and continuing till Independence and the land reforms, they were forced to quit their age old ways of living, take up various kinds of jobs (including "sudravritti") and earn their livelihood. Now, after nearly two generations, with significant economic upliftment of the people in general and TBs in particular, they now feel that the grandeaur that was there for Brahmins as a community should be regained. Obviously there are lots of difficulties in achieving this. While in Kerala, no one will any more accept that a brahmin has some inherent greatness, but leave us in peace, in T. Nadu, it looks to me (I have had no first hand experience of TN for a long time now) that even the innocent brahmin may not be left in peace and may be harrased just for being a brahmanan. Even if it is not so, he has lost the pre-eminence in society which he once enjoyed and that cannot be regained now. Some other castes are going up the ladder of power and social recognition due to various reasons, one of which is the reservations - and its proper and improper (mis-)use.

All these factors create an angst in the minds of those who feel for the continuance of the TB community with its culture, customs and beliefs, ways of living, etc., intact as it was in its heyday. This is what I referred to as "we are being threatened now". Hope it is clear now.

 

[Nara]

..This simple story contains perhaps more wisdom and philosophy than many scriptures. We should really respect that unknown Cherookee elder as a great Guru. At least, I will.

I felt the same way and that is why I felt like sharing it. There is a wealth of secular teaching out there if we care to look that will guide us live in harmony with everyone.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Why history repeats?with vengeance? Some of us are eager history enthusiasts and have learned the lesson from our history that Manu was the author and cause for all these caste conflicts of the day. Now having learned it we are rewriting the same history with replacing Manu with Mandal and feel comfortable!

Folks, Manu laid out a hierarchically graded grouping of people that was maintained through strict endogamy and threats of harsh punishment for transgressors. Each layer in this hierarchical system got to take advantage of the labor of everyone below, the consequence of which was those who occupied the lowest rungs had to shoulder the entire weight of the oppressive edifice.

Mandal, on the other hand, recognized this oppressive classification that already existed, and developed a prescription for nursing the oppressed back to normal state. Mandal's hope is, if the prescription is followed, a day will come when the Manu monstrosity will be a thing of the past.

If Manu is a decease, Mandal is the cure.

So, drawing a false equivalency between Manu and Mandal shows either nefarious motivation or total ignorance and apathy towards what Manu and Mandal actually are -- they don't know and they don't care.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

i also feel, that sudden transformation to wealth can be unsettling. while we still may be having remnants in our psyche, about the beauty of simplicity, we appear not to have the willpower to resist the pleasures of today. maybe this dichotomy is causing angst and guilt. but overall, we appear to ride the guild pretty well, and enjoy life for what it is worth. i mean the hedonistic aspect [\QUOTE]Dear Kunjuppu,

The Puranas bear ample evidence of how gifts ("daanam") to brahmanas will enable the donor to amass punya. One of the most efficacious and (naturally, costliest, gifts is a cow's idol made with gold with the specified navaratnas fixed as eyed, ears, tilaka, etc., etc. Going by the manner in which daana was so highly recommended in most puranas as antidotes for different types of paapams, troubles, illnesses, etc., it looks to me that the brahmana was not content with simple life; perhaps a stage came when he was compelled by circumstances, to be simple. Then came the bhakti type of literature in which simple life, poverty, suffering, etc. were extolled.

There is a story in Bhagavata or Mahabharata, I can't say but often cited by the Bhagavatas. Krishna and Arjuna were travelling together and came to a village. There was a rich man who invited them for meals. He showed off his wealth during the meals as much as he could. Krishna, before leaving, presented him with something which will bestow immense wealth to him.

Later they came to a poor man's house. His child was terminally ill. But still he received the duo with all humility and gave them the little bit of gruel he had kept for the sick child since he had nothing else. Krishna and Arjuna partook of it, and before leaving Krishna with a wave of his hand, killed the child! Arjuna was aghast and he reproached Krishna for his cruelty to a poor, devout brahmin. Krishna coolly explained that only when one suffers he will remember and pray to God and so the devout man was made to pray more devoutly and attain moksham quickly whereas riches would make the rich man commit sins and he will come to suffer for his paapams in this or next life and start on his path to moksham. That is the type of stories very current among the Bhagavatas but they themselves don't mind a lot of riches !!

 

[Harini]

Our esteem!

Bold answers!

Well you asked if brahmins were wealthy and i provided an answer for that. Ofcourse brahmins only created the dharmashastras, they never got their hands dirty by enforcing the caste system with the sword themselves (please read about farmer riots during the vijayangar and marattha period. the brahmin peshwas did carry out physical violence against dalits themselves).

Tamil Brahmins should not be punished for something that happened in Vijayanagar and Marattha.


What did they derive? Well, the same standing that you derive from your education today. If they had no education, how cud they be employed as high officers (or in jobs like accountants that we consider ordinary today).

Unfortunately the educated Brahmin never get in to high office today! In the British period only Brahmins were without sufficient livelihood opportunities with their native business and thus took English education to earn as officers. But Brahmins did not prevented others to take education! Brahmin teachers in the school are also not responsible for the discrimination in the class.

Yes ofcourse TTD opened its veda patshalas to NBs and there are NBs studying there: Vedic School opens doors to Dalits, non-Brahmins In Maharashtra too, Namboodiris are running a veda patshala for NBs. Why tehre are female NBs also becoming priests: Indian City Opens Doorway to Female Hindu Priests | Womens eNews

The question is whether these things are approved as education? Please don't go around the bush.

So you want reservations without addressing social issues that lead to the reservations first?


I just want Reservation for Brahmins. Social issues are getting addressed and I do not have any problem in taking your command if you are also with me on my demand.

Is that the solution to deal with caste-discrimination against 'dalits'?

Partially 'yes'. The other things in your mind also are required. I am interested in not loosing my esteem for the reverence I give for the cause of Dalith's esteem.

 

[Harini]

Alternative to Reservation

Not necessarily. An alternative to Reservation will emerge. People will at least start talking about the alternatives.

If Brahmins were to be awarded reservation, then one has to presume that all 100% will be divvied up in proportion to respective size of each caste in relation to the total population. My guess is, this will hurt TBs more than the present situation.

Cheers!

 

[RKB]

Genocide

Mine was not a prediction sir. I just meant that if we dared to compare ourselves with jews, then we have to be warned of a Genocide waiting to happen. IT is Dr. who compared Brahmins of today to Jews. It can be correct only if it is Jews before Great war.

There should be something in untold history. Did Jews supported other Germans in their war effort? If jews were not discriminated as Daliths, were they discriminating others?

Coming back to TBs, will we support a particular side in World War III (Sic)? It is not possible for we are in a mood to migrate away now and by all possibility may take a position just opposite to India in WW III. That can be a sufficient reason for Genocide!!!

History has proved time and again that anything is possible to happen and therefore there is nothing wrong in taking it as one of the possible scenario for a strategic thinking.

I am puzzled by your prediction, "Waiting to happen." Do you really think a Nazi style mass murder of TBs is just a matter of time, "waiting to happen"? AFAIK, not a single TB has died because of his caste, and there is no gathering danger even vaguely similar to what the Jews saw all around them during the rise of popularity for the Nazi party. I may be wrong, but perhaps this is just musings based on some gut-level feelings.

The life of Jews was not a bed of roses even prior to the great wars of the 20th century. From Merchant of Venice we can deduce that a myriad of restrictions were placed upon Jews, like where they can live, how late in the evening they can be out of their residences, what kind of vocation they are allowed to pursue, etc.

Much of the antisemitism of post-reformation Europe can be traced to the "great" Christian reformer Martin Luther's book "On the Jews and their lies". The fact is, the Nazis found succor for their antisemitism from such religious figures. The Catholics were silent supporters. The present pope was a Hitler youth.

If we take all these into account, the plight of European Jews are probably more comparable to the plight of Dalits, not Brahmins. Brahmins can be compared to the Catholic elites and Martin Luther, on the side of the perpetrators if not perpetrators themselves.

Another piece of fact, the Jews of Europe had a much better life than the Dalits and were treated a lot better by the Europeans -- Jews were not treated as untouchables, nor were they denied education.

I remember Kunjuppu saying medieval Europe is a subject he is interested in, perhaps he can give some more details.

Cheers!

 

[prasanth1]

Tamil Brahmins should not be punished for something that happened in Vijayanagar and Marattha.

In essence, I feel this answer sums up why Harini's perspective lacks objectivity and will never lead to any fruitful discussion. He/she lacks the understanding that the philosophy and idea behind reservation is not to punish one group. It is not revenge. Rather, it is a perhaps flawed but well-meaning program to lift a socially-depressed group.

It can be argued that the lifting of one group has caused a negative shift in the lifestyle and opportunities of a formerly successful community. This is a valid argument. However, this is not the same argument as saying that reservation was created to punish Tamil Brahmins.

This is a good illustration of how divisive politics work. Both sides take extreme positions that rely solely on their own biased interpretations and are thus not able to see a middle point to agree upon. Sadly, this kind of divisive thinking has led to the problems of today's world.

 

[happyhindu]

Well you asked if brahmins were wealthy and i provided an answer for that. Ofcourse brahmins only created the dharmashastras, they never got their hands dirty by enforcing the caste system with the sword themselves (please read about farmer riots during the vijayangar and marattha period. the brahmin peshwas did carry out physical violence against dalits themselves).

Tamil Brahmins should not be punished for something that happened in Vijayanagar and Marattha.

Peronally i agree with you. But please ask the opinion of the dalits. What do they think. If they want reservations, and you too want reservations, there must someway to accomodate all. In such case, can you offer appropriate solutions?

Instead of just demanding, wud it not be better if you were to study the system and provide practical solutions where changes can be made.

Btw, there are open categories and donation categories available to brahmins (so reservations does not really qualify to be called "punishment").

What did they derive? Well, the same standing that you derive from your education today. If they had no education, how cud they be employed as high officers (or in jobs like accountants that we consider ordinary today).

Unfortunately the educated Brahmin never get in to high office today!

I suppose whiners are those stuck in low and mediocere calibre....if you open your eyes wide enough you will see that there are brahmins in high offices..just that they have worked hard enuf and are definitely above mediocere calibre. But those who don't get there mop about with grumbles, complaints and victimhood attitude.

In the British period only Brahmins were without sufficient livelihood opportunities with their native business and thus took English education to earn as officers.

Not true. Brahmins could always fall back on purohitam to earn a living. Those who depended on agriculture produce for money, and lost their lands, had no other means to earn a living (such people were forced to take to education to earn a living).

But Brahmins did not prevented others to take education! Brahmin teachers in the school are also not responsible for the discrimination in the class.

Till date, you have priests who sit on the pov that shudras must be denied education. You also have revered gurus who want people to follow jaati dharma in this day and age.

Yes ofcourse TTD opened its veda patshalas to NBs and there are NBs studying there: Vedic School opens doors to Dalits, non-Brahmins In Maharashtra too, Namboodiris are running a veda patshala for NBs. Why tehre are female NBs also becoming priests: Indian City Opens Doorway to Female Hindu Priests | Womens eNews

The question is whether these things are approved as education? Please don't go around the bush.

Well, any form of learning that helps one earn a living is an education. The folks who study at such institutions do get certified to work as purohits...

So you want reservations without addressing social issues that lead to the reservations first?

I just want Reservation for Brahmins. Social issues are getting addressed and I do not have any problem in taking your command if you are also with me on my demand.

Command and demand? :dizzy: Am sorry, perhaps you may want to continue to demand, but am not in a position to do any commanding..

Is that the solution to deal with caste-discrimination against 'dalits'?

Partially 'yes'. The other things in your mind also are required. I am interested in not loosing my esteem for the reverence I give for the cause of Dalith's esteem.

!

Partially yes means what? Is providing reservations to 'brahmins' the "partial" solution to deal with caste-discrimination against 'dalits' ? You must be kidding.

Anyways, you can go on posting with your demands. Am not sure if this will turn out to be ranting on self-imagined things (jamadagni or vamanan style).. ..So, thanks, am not interested in continuing and am out of this conversation. Bye.

 

[sangom]

Answers in boldface within quote
Solution: Reservation for Brahmins

Harini,

If our demand for reservation for brahmins is acceded to by GOI, we will get about less than 5 per cent and nothing more. Once brahmins get reservations, the rest of the FCs will also demand same and there will hardly be any unreserved quota; even if, to satisfy legal requirements some 5 or 6 per cent is set aside, that will be up for the most talented from Bs, NBs and others. As it is now we (Bs) are enjoying much more than 5 per cent, I think. Hence my doubt is will reservation for Bs really help or harm our interests. I request knowledgeable people to enlighten me.

Note: This is an afterthought as a result of reading the various posts here, though in the poll, I voted for reservation.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom Sir,

There are enough opportunities for all the communities and reservation is not a solution to the problem.

It is the duty of the Government to provide education for all irrespective of religion, caste, language or race.

Roughly one third of the Indians are illiterate and it is the duty of the Government to make them literate immediately without losing any time.

Hardly 6% of the students who are completing School education are going to the college level.

Whatever is reserved is cornered by elite among the communities and poor are deprived within the community itself. Reservation is also misused by forging community certificates.

Even enlightened people here are not bothered about the one third of the Indians who are illiterate nor about the vested interests cornering the reservation quota.

Even at college level, there is no reservation for private colleges offering Arts, Science and Commerce education.

Supreme court has already pronounced judgement that reservation cannot be enforced in unaided private educational institutions offering engineering/medical educations. Supreme court has also ordered that `creamy Layer' has to be eliminated from seeking reservation quota. But vested interests are not doing all the above.

Let each and every caste affected by reservation start private colleges and empower their caste. Loans are available for higher education and money is not a problem.

Foreign Universities are coming to India and it is not possible to enforce reservation on them.

I wish our community should concentrate on development agenda instead of wasting time on reservation

All the best

Harini,

If our demand for reservation for brahmins is acceded to by GOI, we will get about less than 5 per cent and nothing more. Once brahmins get reservations, the rest of the FCs will also demand same and there will hardly be any unreserved quota; even if, to satisfy legal requirements some 5 or 6 per cent is set aside, that will be up for the most talented from Bs, NBs and others. As it is now we (Bs) are enjoying much more than 5 per cent, I think. Hence my doubt is will reservation for Bs really help or harm our interests. I request knowledgeable people to enlighten me.

Note: This is an afterthought as a result of reading the various posts here, though in the poll, I voted for reservation.

 

[happyhindu]

I have not studied the reservations system properly.

But from my part i think the better way to go about things wud be to

1) Make education compulsary and non-compliance punishable by law.

2) Children of Specially Underpriviledged Category (SUG) such as musahars and doms, should also be given weekly allowance (pocket money) as an incentive to go to school.

3) Increase the number of schools, colleges, universities. The ratio proportion of students to universities should be atleast 1 university for every 8000 - 10,000 students.

4) Increase the number of seats in existing universities.

5) Allow more foreign universities to open campus in india.

6) Regulate the donation-seats scenario. Private universities must come under some guidelines (one cannot just pay and study without calibre).

7) Keep reservation-by-caste only for SCs and STs and scrap (stop) caste-based reservations for everyone else. Club individual applicants (of BCs, OBCs, all castes) who are economically poor with the SCs and STs.

8) Take into account the economic status of the applicant (his annual household income). Offer special reservations for such candidates who cannot pay fees.

9) Waive fees for candidates of Very Low Income Group (VLIG) who get admissions in merit. This applies for both dalits and brahmins.

10) Since reservations factor in "social backwardness" into account, hence the government has put brahmins as "socially forward". The government should take concrete steps to ensure other communities also become socially forward. If this requires direct intervention into religion, let it be so. There cannot be religious discrimination on anyone based on caste anymore.

Shri RVR,

I may not be able to visit this forum often but i will keep reading posts by you. Do keep us informed about the efforts you have taken to register your caste (current occupation) as an blacksmith / ironsmith / lohar.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Harini,

I read some of your posts with interest. Caste based discriminations took place for a very very long time. Every single caste excepting the lowest of the lower caste has to take responsibility for the injustices committed to the lower communities. If the castes were to be placed in a pyramid formation, arguably, Caste brahmins would form the apex or very close to the apex of that triangle. That may mean, that caste brahmins would have discriminated almost all the castes. there is nothing wrong in accepting the responsibility and try to fix the past injustices. It does not take much...sincerely invite a dalit collegue to a function at home; if he/she is uncomfortable to participate in others presence, then, invite him/her in a different day... ask him/her to prepare a dish to be shared with you; share your food with them. I can not explain the happiness from the dalits when you do it. I don't have enough vocabulary to explain...you have to do it to know it.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Prasanth 1 said:-

In essence, I feel this answer sums up why Harini's perspective lacks objectivity and will never lead to any fruitful discussion. He/she lacks the understanding that the philosophy and idea behind reservation is not to punish one group. It is not revenge. Rather, it is a perhaps flawed but well-meaning program to lift a socially-depressed group.

Sri.Prasanth,

If you think the caste based reservation system is 'perhaps flawed', you have no right to tell Sow.Harini to accept it. You do not even have a right to ask , leave alone telling someone to accept a flawed system.Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

raghy,

may i please present a case as a person of interest, please?

i think, the current caste based reservation may be flawed. but even as a flawed system, it has done wonders to uplift so many groups and rural folks to smell the air of the professionals and middle class.

today, even in apollo, it is gratifying to see specialists of all castes and groups. what it has done, is to pry apart the connotation of education from caste. although not completely. yet.

hope you don't mind this intervention.

Prasanth 1 said:-

Sri.Prasanth,

If you think the caste based reservation system is 'perhaps flawed', you have no right to tell Sow.Harini to accept it. You do not even have a right to ask , leave alone telling someone to accept a flawed system.Cheers!

 

[Harini]

Isn't it?

Humanity has come with several things like Democracy, Limited Liability, Capital Market etc and all these things ideally serves all. Reservation is not one like it and so an alternative for it has to be evolved. Though it meant some advantage to socially depressed community in the beginning, the same communities are now again degenerating for they are pampered with unavoidable abberrations of Reservation.

Can you get a claim from one such depressed community representative to say that the policy of Reservation has delivered to them and therefore they are up now! You will only start going around the bush again. Robbing Paul to pay Peter is also OK with me. But Reservation is robbing from Brahmins to pay the Pauls! Nobody is punishing TBs for only TBs have to be blamed for this. They were not astute politically and therefore they suffer. If they need correction now, they have to demand Reservation.

I am for Reservation and I want it for Brahmins also. Why should you picturise me as a lady (I think I have clarified one of your doubt!) against Reservation. Tell clearly as to what is your objective in denying Brahmins the reservation. Your Objectives are subjective to mine! Isn't it?

In essence, I feel this answer sums up why Harini's perspective lacks objectivity and will never lead to any fruitful discussion. He/she lacks the understanding that the philosophy and idea behind reservation is not to punish one group. It is not revenge. Rather, it is a perhaps flawed but well-meaning program to lift a socially-depressed group.

It can be argued that the lifting of one group has caused a negative shift in the lifestyle and opportunities of a formerly successful community. This is a valid argument. However, this is not the same argument as saying that reservation was created to punish Tamil Brahmins.

This is a good illustration of how divisive politics work. Both sides take extreme positions that rely solely on their own biased interpretations and are thus not able to see a middle point to agree upon. Sadly, this kind of divisive thinking has led to the problems of today's world.

 

[silverfox]

My two cents' worth of observation as a member:

It is funny that most of the members (it appears that way) who argue for or against reservation are from outside India, citizens of other countries and they have no bearing whatsoever on what is going on in India!!

 

[Harini]

Today, roughly 5000 seats are being allotted to Forward communities out of total about 70,000 seats allotted by counselling at Anna University. Out of about 1 lakh seats allotted as Management seats, nearly 24000 seats are FCs. Therefore we are getting better then 5% without Reservation for Brahmins. Management seats are a sort of corrections to flaws of Reservation system. But it is unwise to assume that all the Brahmins get their due of dignity by Management Quota. Members posting in this thread sound that they are getting seats in Private Institutions in spite of Reservation. But is it on the basis of Merit?

Once FCs were enjoying about 60% of the seats by merit in about 5000 seats available then in Tamilnadu in spite of Reservation. It is TAMBRAHS which initially fought a case in Supreme Court for starting Private Institutions with a minority tag. Eventually the advantage of it has only been reaped by the other communities which are politically astute in demanding reservation for them. Yes, demanding Reservation just means political astuteness and that cannot be comprehended by numbers.

Harini,

If our demand for reservation for brahmins is acceded to by GOI, we will get about less than 5 per cent and nothing more. Once brahmins get reservations, the rest of the FCs will also demand same and there will hardly be any unreserved quota; even if, to satisfy legal requirements some 5 or 6 per cent is set aside, that will be up for the most talented from Bs, NBs and others. As it is now we (Bs) are enjoying much more than 5 per cent, I think. Hence my doubt is will reservation for Bs really help or harm our interests. I request knowledgeable people to enlighten me.

Note: This is an afterthought as a result of reading the various posts here, though in the poll, I voted for reservation.